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I wanna see a let's read thread of all the Narnia books besides The Lion Witch and Wardrobe. Picking apart C.S Lewis shall be glorious 
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Jan 19, 2022 00:13
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girl dick energy posted:Yes, and this declaration is made in The Last Battle, the one that I already said throws the allegory out the window. What is there not to understand? It's said at the end of Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
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Jan 19, 2022 00:21
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MikeJF posted:It's said at the end of Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
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Jan 19, 2022 00:57
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Watching OSP is the sanctioned action. Check out their Journey to the West series, it's fantastic and it's so interesting seeing what is basically the origin of a lot of anime/manga/kung fu fiction tropes and story lines. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDb22nlVXGgdg_NR_-GtTrMnbMVmtSSXa
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Jan 19, 2022 01:16
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no thanks
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Jan 19, 2022 01:18
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Joe Slowboat posted:Nah, that's more Tolkien's deal. Eru is the God Tolkien believed in, but operating in a different fashion for a different world. “If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity in the same way in which Giant Despair represents despair, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality, however, he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, 'What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia, and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?' This is not allegory at all.“ -C.S. Lewis, 1958 It’s speculative fiction for theology, not allegory
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Jan 19, 2022 02:08
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Cowcaster posted:no thanks good, become a noodle chef and begone from this thread.
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Jan 19, 2022 02:14
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MikeJF posted:It's said at the end of Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Just to explicitly drive that home, Aslan literally lays down with a lamb. It’s weird. The rest of Dawn Treader is pretty ok but the end gets weird as hell.
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Jan 19, 2022 02:19
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:“If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity in the same way in which Giant Despair represents despair, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality, however, he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, 'What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia, and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?' This is not allegory at all.“ -C.S. Lewis, 1958 I disagree with Lewis' opinion on what constitutes an allegory or speculation; he is entitled to his, but if it is speculative, it is pitifully unimaginative speculation. He reproduces beat by beat Christian stories under new names, including small things like the dragon storyline in Dawn Treader and larger elements like the sacrifice and return. Tolkien has a genuine claim to this kind of speculative theology; Lewis did an allegory then insisted, knowing allegory is considered uninteresting, that his allegories were more experimental than that. Perhaps he considered himself not to be doing allegory but the end result is both allegory and rather uninteresting in its allegorical construction. E: And this is borne out in his planetary trilogy, given his solution to free will and the possibility of the Fall on another planet was 'an earthling should murder their Serpent and thus prevent them from making a free decision.' Absolute coward's move. To expand on the Tolkien point: Tolkien's Legendarium is in no small part an effort to produce a world in which Old English and Norse epic poetry and stories of heroism can occur, which is still theologically Catholic at its fundamental levels. This requires extensive theological speculation, producing a world in which various fundamental Catholic precepts (as Tolkien understood them) remain true but there are entities like the pagan gods, monsters, and battles over artifacts of great power. Lewis, on the other hand, had a Lion who is still the son of the Emperor Over the Sea; has a serpent in the form of Jadis; has a Last Battle and even, though inexplicably, Father Christmas. I can fully believe he intended speculation, but what he produced was rough allegory. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 03:10
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Mile'ionaha posted:I mean, he was a weird fucker but in the best way. Uhhhh. If that's the best way, I wish you, your parents, and your children happy therapy. He definitely liked to shock people. Example 1: Job: A Comedy of Justice. "Heinlein depicts a Heaven ruled by snotty angels and a Hell where everyone has a wonderful, or at least productive, time — with Mary Magdalene shuttling breezily between both places." https://www.amazon.com/Job-Comedy-Justice-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0345316509 Example 2: Time Enough For Love. What if you could go back in time and gently caress your own mom? https://www.amazon.com/Time-Enough-...oks%2C85&sr=1-1
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Jan 19, 2022 03:59
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I like the old books that have magdalene count as an apostle nbd. A lot of that stuff is pretty cool and it's kind of a shame a lot of the really wild poo poo got cut. Chicks should have been allowed to be priestesses from the start that was a pretty dick move
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Jan 19, 2022 04:10
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Amusingly enough a big reason women ended up getting screwed over in Christianity was that people forged a bunch of incredibly misogynistic writings for Paul in order to make him seem like an rear end in a top hat and reduce his influence. This effort was met with mixed success
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Jan 19, 2022 06:19
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ulmont posted:Uhhhh. If that's the best way, I wish you, your parents, and your children happy therapy. My favorite "wtf heinlein" story is that he wrote Starship Troopers in a fit of rage over the ratification of a nuclear test ban treaty, and its intended audience was children.
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Jan 19, 2022 13:53
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Is there an OSP thread anywhere on the forums? I would love to talk with goons about OSP, especially since there's such regular new content. But I'm not even sure what subforum it would be in. Also I genuinely like Heinlein, overall. It's unfortunate he took such a hard-right turn later in life, his stories are definitely often... problematic.... but dude was not afraid to tell social norms to go gently caress themselves and he also clearly thought his super-capable real life third wife was a super sexy badass to the point where he based several characters on her, and I respect that, even if she's also probably the reason he ended up getting so conservative (according to Asimov, anyway). GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 16:06
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I like to imagine Tolkien getting increasingly frustrated with CS Lewis's shoddy worldbuilding where he just shoves random stuff together into his world because he feels like and why not, all while pumping out 7 books in 4 years while Tolkien is trying to get The Lord of the Rings through publishers without them butchering it any further.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:42
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Ashcans posted:I like to imagine Tolkien getting increasingly frustrated with CS Lewis's shoddy worldbuilding where he just shoves random stuff together into his world because he feels like and why not, all while pumping out 7 books in 4 years while Tolkien is trying to get The Lord of the Rings through publishers without them butchering it any further. He got frustrated when Lewis went from atheism to Anglicanism, rather than Tolkien's Catholicism.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:56
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GlyphGryph posted:
I dunno if it was all a late and wife-influenced shift though given that he wrote this in 1940: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roads_Must_Roll The message in the end is that high tech advancements that the economy becomes dependant on justifies cracking down on labor unrest and the effete, neurotic demagogues that stoke it. The wiki summary just doesn't do justice to the seething undercurrent of rage at the impudence of striking workers that runs through the text. If the Heinlein that wrote this story were alive today he'd probably write bloodthirsty op eds about how Amazon workers organizing should be crushed so his next day shipping isn't imperiled.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:35
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GunnerJ posted:My favorite "wtf heinlein" story is that he wrote Starship Troopers in a fit of rage over the ratification of a nuclear test ban treaty, and its intended audience was children. He was really afraid of China and completely bought into the "horde of human wave communists" image. No matter how clever you think you are, you are not immune to propaganda.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:59
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GunnerJ posted:My favorite "wtf heinlein" story is that he wrote Starship Troopers in a fit of rage over the ratification of a nuclear test ban treaty, and its intended audience was children. No matter how hard I try to understand and how well people explain it, I will never even begin to understand what Heinlein was trying to say in Starship Troopers.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:05
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Rotten Red Rod posted:No matter how hard I try to understand and how well people explain it, I will never even begin to understand what Heinlein was trying to say in Starship Troopers. The core message of Starship Troopers is that every soldier needs access to tac nukes
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Jan 19, 2022 18:15
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Rotten Red Rod posted:No matter how hard I try to understand and how well people explain it, I will never even begin to understand what Heinlein was trying to say in Starship Troopers. "the military is so cool and awesome and our society is turning into soyboys"
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Jan 19, 2022 18:17
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I thought it was a satire against fascism by telling a story told by fascists glorifying space war Edit: vv got it
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Jan 19, 2022 18:25
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that's the movie
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Jan 19, 2022 18:26
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The problem with starship troopers is that he has a valid point in that a lot of people who get to make decisions have no business making them and usually choose against their own self interest. Which is unfortunately demonstrably true with the vax deniers and everything that’s happened recently. However that consequently eliminates everything worthwhile that makes the universal franchise the most favorable of systems. It’s that boomer mentality of you don’t appreciate anything unless you’ve worked for it and suffered. Anything easily attained is worthless. The premise behind his system is one of a meritocracy based in the shared suffering of public works and warfare. Attempting to give people a shared suffering. “Skin in the game”. It lambasts politicians who send peoples kids off to war without having any of their own fight and therefore don’t understand the immense toll it takes on a persons life and family. It lionizes the military as hard people doing hard things and making the hard decisions and taking that to the extreme and building a society on that premise that somehow isn’t portrayed as the horrifying meatgrinder it is. It’s the junta equivalent of star trek and communism. Except star trek has a reason for its post scarcity polity instead of STs forever wars. He does his best to try and make it seem logical and justified when anyone that’s experienced that kind of society or thought it through for 10 seconds would rightfully laugh in his face and call him a fascist. Which Verhoven did remarkably well.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:46
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The movie is nothing like the book, and better for it.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:48
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in a way the movie is exactly like the book, except with a big south-park style chyron over the bottom of the screen reading "THIS IS WHAT ROBERT HEINLEIN ACTUALLY BELIEVED" at all times
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Jan 19, 2022 18:51
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GunnerJ posted:I dunno if it was all a late and wife-influenced shift though given that he wrote this in 1940: He was definitely still very anti-conservative at that point in his life. He was a big Upton Sinclair fanboy just a couple years before and was coming off a run for his own government seat on a fairly left wing activist platform, although admittedly his main thing in 1940 politically was pushing the "social credit system" he decided was the one true path forward. I don't remember anything from this story, but I have trouble reconciling him, at that period in his life, being vigorously anti-union. Ten years later, sure, but 1940? He was always Heinlein, though. Him holding some unorthodox view that doesn't match the rest of whatever he's arguing at the time doesn't seem completely unlikely. I don't remember anything about that story specifically, but not everything he wrote represented his personal politics at the time (even if some of it definitely did, and you could usually tell because he'd put a character that is very clearly himself into the story to lecture the reader about, and I have no idea if he did that in the story in question, sorry) Regardless, in the early 1950s whatever his politics was at the time became a lot more right-wing in a much more orthodox manner. It could have been she had nothing to do with it and it was just a coincidence.
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Jan 19, 2022 19:58
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GlyphGryph posted:He was definitely still very anti-conservative at that point in his life. He was a big Upton Sinclair fanboy just a couple years before and was coming off a run for his own government seat on a fairly left wing activist platform, although admittedly his main thing in 1940 politically was pushing the "social credit system" he decided was the one true path forward. I don't remember anything from this story, but I have trouble reconciling him, at that period in his life, being vigorously anti-union. Ten years later, sure, but 1940? I dunno what else he was doing around 1940, but he definitely got a story he wrote published that year with some pretty intense anti-labor themes so idk.
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Jan 19, 2022 20:01
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I dunno either.
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Jan 19, 2022 20:02
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What's that, counter-revolutionary reactionaries have completely incoherent political views and are guided by an ideology concerned only with aesthetics? nah man that's crazy
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Jan 19, 2022 20:27
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Cowcaster posted:in a way the movie is exactly like the book, except with a big south-park style chyron over the bottom of the screen reading "THIS IS WHAT ROBERT HEINLEIN ACTUALLY BELIEVED" at all times And much like south park a lot of dipshits point to it and go 'LOOK HOW AWESOME THIS IS I WISH LIFE WAS LIKE THIS' without a hint of irony.
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Jan 20, 2022 01:53
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ulmont posted:Uhhhh. If that's the best way, I wish you, your parents, and your children happy therapy. I mean, I read Job back as a teen and remember it as being funny, but that snippet now reminds me of Gnosticism. The ending of Job is that God is basically an art student and not the best at what He does, if shying away from outright labeling Him as a corrupt demiurge.
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Jan 23, 2022 23:08
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ehhhhhh, the end of job is basically jewish academics coming together and realizing they don't even know enough to ask the right question about why suffering exists
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Jan 24, 2022 04:10
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A big flaming stink posted:ehhhhhh, the end of job is basically jewish academics coming together and realizing they don't even know enough to ask the right question about why suffering exists
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Jan 24, 2022 14:21
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ulmont posted:Uhhhh. If that's the best way, I wish you, your parents, and your children happy therapy. That... Brings back memories. I had this on tape as a kid (and still have one of the tapes, which is how I know!), and last listened to it when I was probably aged... 6 or 7? I remember it being just about a dude and his girlfriend as they fell through dimensions. The lasting impression I have of it is "cool story about being chased through parallel universes" and "very 1960s views on women" I wonder how differently it reads when you're not 7 years old.
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Jan 25, 2022 10:32
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A big flaming stink posted:ehhhhhh, the end of job is basically jewish academics coming together and realizing they don't even know enough to ask the right question about why suffering exists Wrong, the ending of Job shows that to answer the question of suffering you must have the personal power to punch out Leviathan and suplex Behemoth. In other words play Final Fantasy and reach heaven through violence.
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Jan 26, 2022 11:21
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The Bible is just a collection of previous stories gathered and amended to advance a particular cult and attack other local or foreign religions. That's why you have all these stories where Egyptian mages also do magic, but Moses has better magic because better god etc. Or where Genesis has that bit about how knowledge + immortality is basically godhood so Adam and Eve had to be kicked out of the garden of Eden. That's pretty much consistent with Job too and is actually internally consistent. If you know good/evil and have a moral framework to go by, "evil" or "suffering" is solved so long as you have sufficient power. Algid fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 11:30
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build back babel
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Jan 26, 2022 11:33
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SniperWoreConverse posted:build back babel This but unironically, reach Heaven through public works projects
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Jan 26, 2022 14:58
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Phy posted:This but unironically, reach Heaven through public works projects Fully Automated Theistic Luxury Gay Space Communism.
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Jan 26, 2022 15:20
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