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Schubalts posted:The episode of Stabler's bullshit that still sticks out the most to me is when he stalked a pedophile who was legitimately working to better himself and was keeping his urges under control. Stabler pretended to be a pedophile himself, and kept needling and egging the guy on to start raping kids again, until the guy finally snapped and did kidnap a kid. The guy ended up killing himself by jumping off a building. I thought guy cop died, i dont even watch the show and this missed opportunity sounds like big enough sin to drat the writers / show people to double or even triple hell.
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Jan 24, 2022 04:47
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That reminds me, I recently ended up watching The Rookie (I just like Nathan Fillion  ), which does strike a somewhat different tone. As in, they have a public defender secondary character who is shown to do good and important work, every cop is shown as being extremely conscientious about following all the rules, the use of force generally seems to be not excessive, and so on. It's still obviously and undeniably copaganda since it just acts like corruption and abuses of force don't really happen, but I guess it's less... malicious than the likes of SVU, which outright celebrate that kind of thing. I wonder if that's indicative of a shift in attitudes, or just a coincidence.
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Jan 24, 2022 11:13
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Were the cops in third watch always good? I don't really remember
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Jan 24, 2022 11:33
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There's an episode of CSI: Miami where Sunglass Guy goes to arrest a creep and says " you're about to resist being arrested" and then it cuts to credits and is never brought up again.
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Jan 24, 2022 11:43
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Perestroika posted:That reminds me, I recently ended up watching The Rookie (I just like Nathan Fillion
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Jan 24, 2022 11:48
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If Happy! isn't at least 50% "what if Stabler was actually thrown out of the force for being a massive liability and crazy person" then I do not know what to say. Besides 'watch the Season 1 of Happy!'.
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Jan 24, 2022 11:59
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Two arcs that stick out to me-When olivia dates Desmond from lost, and they're trying to track down a rapist, and it turns out it was Desmond who was dating her only so she'd overlook him. Then there's the season where they had that goofy lab tech, who stabler bullied and loved olivia, and the finale was when he started murdering people to get their respect. SVU would be a lot better if it was just Ice-T and Richard Belzer.
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Jan 24, 2022 12:49
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Ambitious Spider posted:Two arcs that stick out to me-When olivia dates Desmond from lost, and they're trying to track down a rapist, and it turns out it was Desmond who was dating her only so she'd overlook him. Then there's the season where they had that goofy lab tech, who stabler bullied and loved olivia, and the finale was when he started murdering people to get their respect. I read this without context of the rest of the thread and thought you were describing a problematic storyline from Lost and my brain almost died trying to remember when that happened
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Jan 24, 2022 13:37
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I just watched an episode of Columbo which was great up until the last 60 seconds when he reveals he planted some evidence to coerce a confession. Pretty sure we were supposed to cheer that along in 1972 but now, not so much. ACAB, Lieutenant
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Jan 24, 2022 13:58
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Alhazred posted:There's an episode of CSI: Miami where Sunglass Guy goes to arrest a creep and says " you're about to resist being arrested" and then it cuts to credits and is never brought up again. I know there was a season premiere where he flew down to Brazil to chase a suspect that he was personally connected to and I am 99% sure he straight up executed the guy too.
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Jan 24, 2022 14:16
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Alhazred posted:B99 also does this. All the cops are competent and nice. Bad and corrupted cops are an isolater problem that's easily fixed and there's no racism. It's cool that they realized that this was something that was out of touch with reality and decided to end the show, but also bad that it took so long for them to realize it. It feels like you forgot about “Moo Moo.”
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Jan 24, 2022 14:53
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Howard Beale posted:I just watched an episode of Columbo which was great up until the last 60 seconds when he reveals he planted some evidence to coerce a confession. Pretty sure we were supposed to cheer that along in 1972 but now, not so much. ACAB, Lieutenant That's cheating!
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Jan 24, 2022 14:54
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I, too, like criminals and hate the cops.
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Jan 24, 2022 14:59
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Ahh but when cops break the rules they themselves become the criminals. And now the game begins.
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Jan 24, 2022 15:00
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oldpainless posted:Ahh but when cops break the rules they themselves become the criminals. More like oldlawless. (The game, of course, being who can come up with the best play on oldpainless's handle. Shots fired, contenders welcome.)
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Jan 24, 2022 15:04
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Alhazred posted:B99 also does this. All the cops are competent and nice. Bad and corrupted cops are an isolater problem that's easily fixed and there's no racism. It's cool that they realized that this was something that was out of touch with reality and decided to end the show, but also bad that it took so long for them to realize it. At least they address it a little at the very beginning, Andre Braugher's character is one of the best on the force but was constantly overlooked because he was gay and black. The only reason he gets the command in the pilot is that society is changing and the NYPD wants to make it look like they're not terrible.
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Jan 24, 2022 15:09
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Brooklyn 99 does it where the 99th precinct is good, but almost every other department is incompetent at best and malicious at worst, which is a decent part of the conflicts in the show
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Jan 24, 2022 15:12
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The last season really went big on "the system is corrupt and needs huge changes". The main antagonist is a police union rep.
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Jan 24, 2022 15:15
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Howard Beale posted:I just watched an episode of Columbo which was great up until the last 60 seconds when he reveals he planted some evidence to coerce a confession. Pretty sure we were supposed to cheer that along in 1972 but now, not so much. ACAB, Lieutenant OTOH this being Columbo the perp was probably rich so uh. Letthemfight.gif?
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Jan 24, 2022 15:17
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I just assumed that B99 exists in some fantastical universe where there are cops that aren't absolutely worthless. But yeah, the show does really paint just about every single cop that isn't of the main cast as an incompetent dipshit who fails upwards.
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Jan 24, 2022 15:30
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In one episode Lt. Columbo also forces the suspect to confess to him, or he will leave him for the mobsters looking for their business associate who the guy iced. Basically "Confess to me and we'll leave together, or say nothing and I leave alone. Either way you die." Lucky thing he was correct and not just throwing wild accusations out, right? Considering that he could not prove anything, and that's why he had to get the mob involved to begin with.
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Jan 24, 2022 15:33
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Howard Beale posted:I just watched an episode of Columbo which was great up until the last 60 seconds when he reveals he planted some evidence to coerce a confession. Pretty sure we were supposed to cheer that along in 1972 but now, not so much. ACAB, Lieutenant If it’s the episode I’m thinking of it also takes place in Britain so Columbo’s not even supposed to be helping! Also that episodes bad in general
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Jan 24, 2022 15:40
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Der Kyhe posted:In one episode Lt. Columbo also forces the suspect to confess to him, or he will leave him for the mobsters looking for their business associate who the guy iced.
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Jan 24, 2022 15:56
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Brooklyn 99 still uses the general ideas and plotlines of other show have established. When the main character dates a defense attorney it's very much treated as a betrayal and in at least one episode they arrest a known jewel thief on zero evidence and then have to scramble to get the evidence/a confession out of him before they have to release him. When they actually do manage to proof he was involved at the last second, it's treated as a huge win. Not to mention the general trope of all crime shows, that every suspect keeps talking to the police without a lawyer present! Which is of course necessary for the plot to happen, but it still helps to push the idea that it is reasonable behavior. Then there is also the problem that being arrested, or accused, by the police is shown to actually be the same as an actual conviction by a court. Even if the police managed to find "ironclad evidence", you really shouldn't just blurt out a confession. Half of Colombo's cases probably wouldn't lead to convictions, since his theories are quite often without solid evidence. The problem is really less any given show in particular, but the general conventions and tropes of the entire genre.
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Jan 24, 2022 16:17
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Alhazred posted:The focus on gjetting a confession is another thing in cop shows that hasn't aged well. Even In B99 tricking someone to confess is portrayed as a good thing. Meanwhile, Homicide: Life on the Streets's first episode has Pembleton showing Giardello how he could easily force a confession out of someone he knows isn't guilty. The most unrealistic part of that is that he doesn't just use that confession and move on to the next case.
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Jan 24, 2022 16:18
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Homicide is such a weird beast. Based on a book written by David Simon while he spent a year embedded with the department it shows them as flawed but well meaning people. The actual person G was based on saw his career advance based mainly on well received the show was in Baltimore and how it made the department look. Then The Wire comes out and David Simon becomes persona non grata in Baltimore after expanding the scope to local government. The cops that became characters in Homicide didn't care and did minor roles and cameos in the show. Jimmy's desk sergeant in the later seasons is the real Jay Landsman, the inspiration for Munch and Jay Landsman in the show. He had retired so he didn't give a gently caress, the cop G was based on was still active and part of upper leadership when he cameod as a judge. The episode aired Sunday night and Monday morning he was fired.
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Jan 24, 2022 16:33
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This conversation has me thinking a lot about Person of Interest, which is a show I have had a lot of time for over the years (and I think it might be time for a rewatch). The show does a lot of fun subversive (by CBS drama standards) stuff (a show about an ex-CIA vigilante and a benevolent universal surveillance system that's broadly about how the intelligence community, both government and corporate, is utterly evil, vigilante justice creates as many problems as it solves, and universal surveillance will destroy us) and, relevant to this conversation, presents the NYPD as a literal criminal gang with maybe two decent people in the entire department. It's by no means perfect (the protagonist makes at least one Bad Person disappear by planting drugs on him and getting him arrested by the Mexican police, because that's not problematic at all) but I like it a lot. (I, uh, try not to think about Jim Caviezel's real life as a qanon nutter these days.)
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Jan 24, 2022 16:48
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e X posted:Not to mention the general trope of all crime shows, that every suspect keeps talking to the police without a lawyer present! Which is of course necessary for the plot to happen, but it still helps to push the idea that it is reasonable behavior. Then there is also the problem that being arrested, or accused, by the police is shown to actually be the same as an actual conviction by a court. Even if the police managed to find "ironclad evidence", you really shouldn't just blurt out a confession. Half of Colombo's cases probably wouldn't lead to convictions, since his theories are quite often without solid evidence. The problem is really less any given show in particular, but the general conventions and tropes of the entire genre. This is apparently a real thing (though people may have gotten the idea that it works from TV shows???), apparently lots and lots of people will just happily spill every single one of their life's details to the police. You're see in police procedurals that sometimes they'll arrest the wrong person, but if that person makes a sufficiently impassioned plea, the whole department will go over all evidence/forensics/interview all the witnesses again. And, also, the police aren't your friends, and they are not there to help or protect you, and they are definitely not trying to help the victim. They're there to get a conviction/arrest, there's not a cop on Earth who gives a poo poo about finding the guilty party, the only reason they're talking to you is that they're trying to give you enough rope to hang yourself with.
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Jan 24, 2022 16:56
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Jim Caviezel being a qanon was so obvious I can't believe anyone would be surprised. I mean his biggest movie was playing loving Jesus in a movie directed by a guy who basically is a prototype for the current right wing chud.
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Jan 24, 2022 17:03
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:I know there was a season premiere where he flew down to Brazil to chase a suspect that he was personally connected to and I am 99% sure he straight up executed the guy too. from this exact thread four years ago (almost) Torquemada posted:And extra-judicially knife-fight their wife’s murderer to death on top of a Brazilian mountain.
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Jan 24, 2022 17:04
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e X posted:Brooklyn 99 still uses the general ideas and plotlines of other show have established. When the main character dates a defense attorney it's very much treated as a betrayal and in at least one episode they arrest a known jewel thief on zero evidence and then have to scramble to get the evidence/a confession out of him before they have to release him. When they actually do manage to proof he was involved at the last second, it's treated as a huge win. yea to really drill into this, copaganda is way deeper and more insidious than 'COP SHOOT MAN COP GOOD' poo poo we normally see. I love B99, I'm really not trying to be all 'if you laughed at Andy Samberg you might as well fuckin suck off a cop right now you scumbag' but for me its final season really rang hollow because it did spend those other seasons doing a lot of poo poo that falls under copaganda as if it was cute and quirky. Jake constantly lies to and fucks with people to get confessions and it's alright because they really DID do it so obviously his ~cop instinct~ is good and right. Terry has...genuine PTSD in the early seasons from a violent case and it's treated as 'oh get over it silly' and the ideal goal is to get him armed and back on the streets ASAP because bleh desk work is laaaaaame. There's constant poo poo like 'arrest competitions' and treating people in holding (who...aren't convicted criminals by the way) like punchlines, and the constant underline tone of 'obviously we're right and good even if it looks like we're bad because hey at least we're not like the REALLY bad cops who racially profile other cops and junk. Now here's a montage of Jake getting arrests because the guy 'obviously is guilty'!' Again I like B99, it's a fun comedy show, but it feels like when copaganda and other things come up we focus on the most obvious things like 'hey so does Dick Wolf genuinely believe rehabilitation is impossible and cops should just field execute everyone because boy does that seem to be a running subplot in all his shows' but that kinda leaves us vulnerable to the more subtle sort that plays to more benign biases like 'well you know, they're not RACIST about it when they get confessions, and look the guy DID do it so he was right!'
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Jan 24, 2022 17:08
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Torquemada posted:from this exact thread four years ago (almost) I'm pretty sure this was a Metal Gear boss fight
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Jan 24, 2022 17:11
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sexpig by night posted:yea to really drill into this, copaganda is way deeper and more insidious than 'COP SHOOT MAN COP GOOD' poo poo we normally see. And when I half-jokingly said in GBS that there is wealth of evidence that the Madrigal family in Encanto is Disney version of cartel running a village, I was told to stop reading into subtext, ease on the conspiracy poo poo, and just enjoy the show.
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Jan 24, 2022 17:18
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I'm pretty sure this was a Metal Gear boss fight Only if they are any combination of clones, brothers, cyborgs, or ghosts.
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Jan 24, 2022 17:19
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I don't think B99 was meant to be a copaganda show. I think the show runners thought "I wonder if you could set a sitcom in the L&O universe" and tried to come at it from a fresh perspective for years until they figured out they couldn't and stopped. I dunno what else you can ask for.
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Jan 24, 2022 17:19
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The last season of Brooklyn 99 has an episode where someone flees the cops out of panic and news of cops just straight up gunning down people without warning despite being innocent, and lost their job because they were arrested in the first place and couldn’t work, and does lead to Jake getting suspended for months because he was so sure it was him.
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Jan 24, 2022 17:31
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docbeard posted:This conversation has me thinking a lot about Person of Interest, which is a show I have had a lot of time for over the years (and I think it might be time for a rewatch). The show does a lot of fun subversive (by CBS drama standards) stuff (a show about an ex-CIA vigilante and a benevolent universal surveillance system that's broadly about how the intelligence community, both government and corporate, is utterly evil, vigilante justice creates as many problems as it solves, and universal surveillance will destroy us) and, relevant to this conversation, presents the NYPD as a literal criminal gang with maybe two decent people in the entire department. I really liked Person of Interest a lot too, and am considering a rewatch myself. The more problematic stuff with the NYPD is in season 4 when Reese has to have the cover identity of an NYPD cop to hide from Samaritan. He literally kneecaps a suspect just because "it's hot out" and he didn't feel like chasing him. The moment is supposed to highlight how Reese as an ex-CIA assassin isn't adapting well to his cover identity, and Fusco and his boss at the NYPD are somewhat aghast about him straight up shooting a suspect without any good reason, but his only consequence is that they send him to see a therapist. It's super weird, especially since Carter was busted back to patrol and almost fired for (at least according to the crooked cop she was with) shooting a suspect without cause a season prior. Gordon Shumway has a new favorite as of 17:37 on Jan 24, 2022 |
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Jan 24, 2022 17:31
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Quote is not edit...
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Jan 24, 2022 17:34
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Oops, triple post
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Jan 24, 2022 17:34
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:I don't think B99 was meant to be a copaganda show. I think the show runners thought "I wonder if you could set a sitcom in the L&O universe" and tried to come at it from a fresh perspective for years until they figured out they couldn't and stopped. I dunno what else you can ask for. I mean, that's kinda the core problem isn't it? I 100% agree nobody MEANT to make it a copaganda thing but by mere virtue of existing and being this fun light hearted comedy that (until the end) was mostly uninterested in exploring the deeper elements of policing in America aside from easily solved one-offs like 'a cop from outside the 99 was racist to Terry' or 'Holt was treated badly for being black and gay in the 70's but now he's in the 99 where we support him and love him' it winds up trafficking in those elements. It's a glib response but there's kinda a reason why most of the jokes about their last season feeling hamfisted to many were 'just make them fire fighters and never acknowledge they were cops', you kinda just...can't really do a cop show in America that doesn't at least accidentally play to biases unless you're going The Shield route and very explicitly making everyone dirty and it's a drama around that.
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Jan 24, 2022 17:52
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