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Darth Walrus posted:I think one thing that does matter is how their survivability toolkit matches up to the requirements of the current battlefield. If mobile suits rely on armour to survive, how's theirs? If they rely on agility to survive, can they dodge? That's where suits like the GM II fail. They're genuinely not good for the basic task of keeping their pilots alive. Of course, the other question is whether they have the firepower to reliably bring down enemy suits and warships. That's not a problem from mid-Gryps onwards, when everyone's got beam weapons, but it was the reason that the Zaku became obsolete so fast. Up until Victory when you see widespread use of beam shields and beam rotors. You'd really think they'd have developed those and better i fields sooner.
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Jan 31, 2022 16:13
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Gaius Marius posted:Up until Victory when you see widespread use of beam shields and beam rotors. You'd really think they'd have developed those and better i fields sooner. I think a big part of it was the miniaturization of I-Fields. They were the exclusive purview of mobile armors like the Dendrobium or what I'd call superheavy mobile suits like the Kshatriya. Beam shields/rotors I have less of an idea about since it seems like a natural extension of beam saber technology. Maybe they had problems with the power requirement of creating the magnetic field that shapes the shield?  Wasn't the Unicorn the first regular-sized mobile suit that had a fully integrated I-Field?
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Jan 31, 2022 17:50
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The Unicorn's I-Field is built into the shield rather than the frame itself, so I'd say the Nu Gundam beats it out(because it also has an I-Field produced by a detachable piece of equipment). If you're strictly talking suits that have I-Fields in the frame itself, I actually can't think of any until Crossbone(which had the X-3, which had a very lovely time-limited I-Field) or, if you want animated stuff, Victory(which had one built into the assault armor, which I guess is still technically a detachable part). Kanos fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jan 31, 2022 |
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Jan 31, 2022 18:06
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Kanos posted:The Unicorn's I-Field is built into the shield rather than the frame itself, so I'd say the Nu Gundam beats it out(because it also has an I-Field produced by a detachable piece of equipment). Ex-S though it could only protect the chest area
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Jan 31, 2022 20:36
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https://twitter.com/MON0EYE/status/1488167405612412928?t=wTxj2hcGvj-AJrpMu8AIeA&s=19
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Jan 31, 2022 20:44
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Gripweed posted:https://twitter.com/MON0EYE/status/1488167405612412928?t=wTxj2hcGvj-AJrpMu8AIeA&s=19 Notice that Shinn's big attack, his moment of glory as he's revealed as the Gundam pilot... ends with him completely missing. Poor guy was doomed from the start. (CE's tendency to have important mooks stick around forever rather than having a quick churn is something worth talking about, I think, both in it weakening the fights, and in it offering more opportunities for the melodrama that helped make the shows such hits.) If the show leaned more into Shinn failing, I would assume it was meant to be comedic, but as is, it's just weird.
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Jan 31, 2022 21:17
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chiasaur11 posted:Notice that Shinn's big attack, his moment of glory as he's revealed as the Gundam pilot... ends with him completely missing. Poor guy was doomed from the start. (CE's tendency to have important mooks stick around forever rather than having a quick churn is something worth talking about, I think, both in it weakening the fights, and in it offering more opportunities for the melodrama that helped make the shows such hits.) Oh, is it time to relitigate Destiny again? Because of the thread's cyclical topics, this is one of my favorites. Destiny could have been extremely good as "The Shinn and Athrun Show." Give me my student-mentor show Fukuda.
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Jan 31, 2022 21:30
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That would require Athrun to have and hold any ideals of his own, rather than soaking up the ideals of the last person to talk to him. Honestly, it feels like Shinn is more likely to teach Athrun to grow a spine of his own in that situation than that Athrun would teach Shinn anything of worth.
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Jan 31, 2022 21:46
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tsob posted:That would require Athrun to have and hold any ideals of his own, rather than soaking up the ideals of the last person to talk to him. Honestly, it feels like Shinn is more likely to teach Athrun to grow a spine of his own in that situation than that Athrun would teach Shinn anything of worth. I mean, Kamille was teaching Quattro more than Quattro taught him, so that fits. I've got some issues with Shinn too, mind, well before Kira comes back. He's introduced with a flashback suggesting anger issues, and then when we cut forward... he spends the episode without either showing or controlling that rage. It's a great idea for a start, but they take too long to do anything with it, focusing more on him touching a boob than on his supposedly defining inner turmoil once we cut to the present.
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Jan 31, 2022 22:10
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Gripweed posted:https://twitter.com/MON0EYE/status/1488167405612412928?t=wTxj2hcGvj-AJrpMu8AIeA&s=19 wow, seed actually gets animation
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Jan 31, 2022 22:27
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tsob posted:That would require Athrun to have and hold any ideals of his own, rather than soaking up the ideals of the last person to talk to him. Honestly, it feels like Shinn is more likely to teach Athrun to grow a spine of his own in that situation than that Athrun would teach Shinn anything of worth. Athrun was just tremendously bad as a mentor, which is the one part of Shinn's fall that's somewhat believable. He just can't give a good answer to any important question Shinn asks and seems to have no real solid beliefs of his own, which ultimately pushes Shinn away.
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Feb 1, 2022 01:32
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So I'm playing SRW 30- is it doing the thing it did in J and make bad stuff look better? Is Narrative worth watching?
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Feb 1, 2022 02:59
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No, Narrative has an interesting premise but doesn't explore them very well.
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Feb 1, 2022 03:03
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Warmachine posted:I think a big part of it was the miniaturization of I-Fields. They were the exclusive purview of mobile armors like the Dendrobium or what I'd call superheavy mobile suits like the Kshatriya. Beam shields/rotors I have less of an idea about since it seems like a natural extension of beam saber technology. Maybe they had problems with the power requirement of creating the magnetic field that shapes the shield? Worth noting that beam shields are much, much bigger than beam sabers. I can buy that it took a while for them to develop and miniaturise I-field technology that could contain a mega-particle structure of that shape and size for any sensible length of time.
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Feb 1, 2022 03:07
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Fivemarks posted:So I'm playing SRW 30- is it doing the thing it did in J and make bad stuff look better? Is Narrative worth watching? SRW tends to do that. SEED Destiny got it a couple of times as well, a big example being in Z.
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Feb 1, 2022 03:45
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chiasaur11 posted:(CE's tendency to have important mooks stick around forever rather than having a quick churn is something worth talking about, I think, both in it weakening the fights, and in it offering more opportunities for the melodrama that helped make the shows such hits.) I think the latter was way more important in the writing to the people making DESTINY and the informs the problems of the former. Because you actually can have recurring mooks and still put over the heroes and hand them solid victories, and Gundam has done that before. As was mentioned not long ago Jerid stuck around for nearly the whole series of Zeta Gundam and nobody would think he was some super amazing pilot what with him blowing up mobile suit after mobile suit. The trick is that it requires a little bit more thought and consideration to have two people fight each other in a life or death struggle, have both of them emerge alive, but make one of them look better than the other in a definitive way. And if all you care about is soap operatic melodrama I suspect you don't even try. Relatedly, Char completely stops getting the better of Amuro by the time he returns to the original series halfway through and he's still made to look like a credible threat because the show puts them over in ways besides "could beat the Gundam in a fight". Fivemarks posted:So I'm playing SRW 30- is it doing the thing it did in J and make bad stuff look better? Is Narrative worth watching? I honestly don't think J did a particularly good job making most of its shows look good, but it is generally pretty standard issue for Super Robot Wars to try and put the shows they feature in a good light. Narrative is another example of that, 30 works really hard to give Jona people to interact with so they can actually characterize him in a logical way that makes sense and portrays him positively in a coherent way rather than repeating the same flashback a dozen times and shoving his entire motivation as a person into the back half of the final battle. It also takes a firm stance on Newtypes in general (which matches the last couple of games, actually) and tries to explain a little bit more about what's going on with Rita in the Phenex and also basically just lets Zoltan live his best life as a cackling, over-the-top villain. And no, Narrative really isn't worth watching. It is, at best, a mess. If you watch it all it should only be to admire Banpresto's work given the mess they were dealing with. Inferno-sama posted:SRW tends to do that. SEED Destiny got it a couple of times as well, a big example being in Z. DESTINY is fun because they've basically run the series five or six different times in five or six different ways and every single one of them is a vast improvement over the original. Shoutouts to UX where Shinn ends up being a mentor to the kids from Fafnir and does a pretty good job of it.
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Feb 1, 2022 04:18
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Omnicrom posted:I think the latter was way more important in the writing to the people making DESTINY and the informs the problems of the former. Because you actually can have recurring mooks and still put over the heroes and hand them solid victories, and Gundam has done that before. As was mentioned not long ago Jerid stuck around for nearly the whole series of Zeta Gundam and nobody would think he was some super amazing pilot what with him blowing up mobile suit after mobile suit. The trick is that it requires a little bit more thought and consideration to have two people fight each other in a life or death struggle, have both of them emerge alive, but make one of them look better than the other in a definitive way. And if all you care about is soap operatic melodrama I suspect you don't even try. "A Bad Case of the Gundams"
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Feb 1, 2022 04:44
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Yeah like I've said before J did probably one of the worst jobs of any game in the series when it came to implementing it's Gundam series into either the story or setting of the game(which is amazing considering they only had to work with 2 Gundam entries), though otherwise I feel it's an acceptable entry in the franchise and of the fan translated games it makes the best introduction to the franchise as well(not as archaic as the SNES entries, nor as hard as Alpha Gaiden or A Portable, or as unusual as GC)
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Feb 1, 2022 04:49
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Darth Walrus posted:Worth noting that beam shields are much, much bigger than beam sabers. I can buy that it took a while for them to develop and miniaturise I-field technology that could contain a mega-particle structure of that shape and size for any sensible length of time. this is definitely a big part of it, especially since in a lot of tomino's shows you can note how beam saber blades will actually recede to a shorter standby length when not actively being used, presumably because they require a shitload of power.
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Feb 1, 2022 05:16
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Omnicrom posted:DESTINY is fun because they've basically run the series five or six different times in five or six different ways and every single one of them is a vast improvement over the original. Shoutouts to UX where Shinn ends up being a mentor to the kids from Fafnir and does a pretty good job of it. Destiny is like a wasted potential elemental. There are just so many ways that story could have become good, or at least a resounding 6/10. Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:this is definitely a big part of it, especially since in a lot of tomino's shows you can note how beam saber blades will actually recede to a shorter standby length when not actively being used, presumably because they require a shitload of power. While we get a ton of info on how much power all manner of lasers use, we don't really get much on sabers. I mean we're told how much they use in the machine specs but beam saber power usage never really comes up much in the actual media.
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Feb 1, 2022 05:39
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Yinlock posted:Destiny is like a wasted potential elemental. There are just so many ways that story could have become good, or at least a resounding 6/10. The main thing here is that in the UC, the very earliest beam saber designs they come up with are close-to-perfect melee weapons. You don't usually need anything bigger or more power-hungry, and the average beam blade can happily run off the power supply of anything equal to or exceeding the performance of the original RX-78 Gundam. As a result, beam saber power consumption is only really relevant in stories set from the One Year War until the start of the Gryps Conflict, where suits actually do need to make sacrifices to use them. One example would be the Pixie, which uses beam daggers and lightweight projectile weapons in order to squeeze as much performance as possible out of the RX-78 engine. That said, we do see some gentle evolution in beam melee weapons around the time of the Neo Zeon Wars - the ZZ and the main suits from Gundam Sentinel use bulky, overpowered beam sabers that contribute to their limited operation time, and several of the suits in CCA can use large-bladed beam weapons with relatively small emitters and no obvious cost in suit performance (the Nu's extra-long beam saber, the Geara Dogas' beam axes, and the Sazabi's huge beam tomahawk).
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Feb 1, 2022 05:59
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Omnicrom posted:I think the latter was way more important in the writing to the people making DESTINY and the informs the problems of the former. Because you actually can have recurring mooks and still put over the heroes and hand them solid victories, and Gundam has done that before. As was mentioned not long ago Jerid stuck around for nearly the whole series of Zeta Gundam and nobody would think he was some super amazing pilot what with him blowing up mobile suit after mobile suit. The trick is that it requires a little bit more thought and consideration to have two people fight each other in a life or death struggle, have both of them emerge alive, but make one of them look better than the other in a definitive way. And if all you care about is soap operatic melodrama I suspect you don't even try. The show also put emphasis on how Char is able to slaughter anyone who isn't Amuro. CE has a bit more trouble with this since the EA mooks are such garbage, but it's a useful thing for showing that the hero isn't bad for failing to take this opponent out, the opponent is a combat monster who only looks weaker because the hero is so good. The Origin goes even further, giving a bunch of scenes to GMs looking good so that when Char takes on fifteen of them in a Zaku, you don't go "Man, the GM is a piece of poo poo" but instead "Man, Char is a badass. Holy poo poo, Amuro is even more of a badass." Iron Blooded Orphans also does a good job with this. Since we get a lot of scenes with Grazes being solid machines, Mikazuki taking them out in bulk lots in the finale is a standout moment, rather than just being a standard issue fight.
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Feb 1, 2022 06:39
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chiasaur11 posted:The show also put emphasis on how Char is able to slaughter anyone who isn't Amuro. CE has a bit more trouble with this since the EA mooks are such garbage, but it's a useful thing for showing that the hero isn't bad for failing to take this opponent out, the opponent is a combat monster who only looks weaker because the hero is so good. The Origin goes even further, giving a bunch of scenes to GMs looking good so that when Char takes on fifteen of them in a Zaku, you don't go "Man, the GM is a piece of poo poo" but instead "Man, Char is a badass. Holy poo poo, Amuro is even more of a badass." Like I've said before, an A Baoa Qu scenario where you have Char in the Zeong but no Amuro to counter him is essentially an unwinnable scenario for the Federation, they've got nothing else present that could counter him, he'd go through their fleet like a chainsaw through butter, creating a hole that the rest of the Zeon force could rally behind
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Feb 1, 2022 08:57
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I never really felt, watching Seed or Destiny, that Kira Yamato was a good pilot so much as everyone else had a worse machine or was all around a terrible pilot. The mecha equivalent of the first space battle in Yamato 2202, where the only ship actively maneuvering is the one with named characters on board.
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Feb 1, 2022 09:04
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Mobile Suit Gundam
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Feb 1, 2022 10:32
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Fivemarks posted:I never really felt, watching Seed or Destiny, that Kira Yamato was a good pilot so much as everyone else had a worse machine or was all around a terrible pilot. The mecha equivalent of the first space battle in Yamato 2202, where the only ship actively maneuvering is the one with named characters on board. Yeah, SEED's fight choreography isn't exactly... good. It makes the genetically engineered super pilots look like something of a questionable investment.
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Feb 1, 2022 12:21
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Darth Walrus posted:The main thing here is that in the UC, the very earliest beam saber designs they come up with are close-to-perfect melee weapons. You don't usually need anything bigger or more power-hungry, and the average beam blade can happily run off the power supply of anything equal to or exceeding the performance of the original RX-78 Gundam. The Nu's also has that weird thing where the saber only extends when it's swung, which is a concept i'm surprised they never really expanded on. It seems handy.
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Feb 1, 2022 16:39
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Yinlock posted:The Nu's also has that weird thing where the saber only extends when it's swung, which is a concept i'm surprised they never really expanded on. It seems handy. I think suits in VIctory do the same thing too.
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Feb 1, 2022 18:22
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Fivemarks posted:I never really felt, watching Seed or Destiny, that Kira Yamato was a good pilot so much as everyone else had a worse machine or was all around a terrible pilot. The mecha equivalent of the first space battle in Yamato 2202, where the only ship actively maneuvering is the one with named characters on board. The dead-eyed stare everyone has in SEED mode doesn't help matters Everyone but Shinn just looks bored as gently caress most of the time when it's active
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Feb 1, 2022 18:54
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Fivemarks posted:I think suits in VIctory do the same thing too. And F91. I think it was kept for Reco too
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Feb 1, 2022 19:07
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Gaius Marius posted:And F91. I think it was kept for Reco too And the Turn A as well. Its Beam Sabers could shoot out quite a distance when need be, but were otherwise often dagger length. chiasaur11 posted:Yeah, SEED's fight choreography isn't exactly... good. It makes the genetically engineered super pilots look like something of a questionable investment. I've said it before and I'll say it again, good choreography with a bad budget will always make better looking action than bad choreography with a good budget.
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Feb 1, 2022 19:18
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i would say seed is bad choreography and budget, but maybe i am needlessly harsh on it as a gross-looking yearlong digital anime in the early 00s or all the stuff indicating good budget is hiding sometime after the first cour??
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Feb 1, 2022 19:45
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Yinlock posted:The Nu's also has that weird thing where the saber only extends when it's swung, which is a concept i'm surprised they never really expanded on. It seems handy. I always interpreted that as another demonstration of the skill of Char and Amuro. With each pilot micro-managing the beam saber to feint/ conserve power in the fight.
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Feb 1, 2022 20:14
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The final fight between Rai and Korea isn't that bad. Some of the druggie fights are sorry of interesting
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Feb 1, 2022 21:08
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:this is definitely a big part of it, especially since in a lot of tomino's shows you can note how beam saber blades will actually recede to a shorter standby length when not actively being used, presumably because they require a shitload of power. Yinlock posted:The Nu's also has that weird thing where the saber only extends when it's swung, which is a concept i'm surprised they never really expanded on. It seems handy. See I never noticed what BSS is saying until CCA when the choreography draws the eye to the fact that the Nu and Sazabi's beam sabers are not fully extended when they aren't about to hit each other. Rabbi Tupac posted:I always interpreted that as another demonstration of the skill of Char and Amuro. With each pilot micro-managing the beam saber to feint/ conserve power in the fight. This is what I concluded as well, and I noticed the same thing being shown off in post-CCA entries, which to me suggests that Amuro and Char basically invented the practice themselves and everyone else built it in as a feature after because "hey this is a good idea for power economy." dogsicle posted:i would say seed is bad choreography and budget, but maybe i am needlessly harsh on it as a gross-looking yearlong digital anime in the early 00s It's the first part. The early 00s were not a good time to be trying to blend 2D and 3D digital animation together.
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Feb 1, 2022 21:17
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dogsicle posted:i would say seed is bad choreography and budget, but maybe i am needlessly harsh on it as a gross-looking yearlong digital anime in the early 00s The good budget is hiding in the music, if I remember right. The show paid up for songs and stunt casting, while the schedule was kind of messed up for the animation (hence the recap episodes).
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Feb 1, 2022 22:29
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There are some good choreographed fights in both SEED and Destiny they're just drowned out by the ugly animation style and a shitload of forgettable Kira kills everything fights.
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Feb 1, 2022 23:00
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Warmachine posted:See I never noticed what BSS is saying until CCA when the choreography draws the eye to the fact that the Nu and Sazabi's beam sabers are not fully extended when they aren't about to hit each other. Seems strange to adopt the practice when it's kinda useless for non-aces and powering beam sabers has never really been an issue, but it looks neat so whatever Actually speaking of the Nu's saber why does it have that stubby little blade on the bottom end, that doesn't seem particularly useful
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Feb 1, 2022 23:21
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RevolverDivider posted:There are some good choreographed fights in both SEED and Destiny they're just drowned out by the ugly animation style and a shitload of forgettable Kira kills everything fights. I think a part of why some people walk away with the impression that it doesn't have any good choreographed fights is that they're also a victim of animation reuse - people don't care that much when stock footage is things like launch sequences or generic battle things, but both shows have a habit of taking what should be key or showcase scenes and reusing them for trivial sequences later - it inevitably blunts their impact a bit. That and the CE shows just came to be in that horrid twilight zone between the end of conventional cel animation as a thing and digital animation techniques maturing.
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Feb 2, 2022 00:41
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Fivemarks posted:I never really felt, watching Seed or Destiny, that Kira Yamato was a good pilot so much as everyone else had a worse machine or was all around a terrible pilot. The mecha equivalent of the first space battle in Yamato 2202, where the only ship actively maneuvering is the one with named characters on board. I am half and half about this point, because you got stuff like Kira vs the Gundam Trio which on paper sounds impressive that he held out against them for as long as they did but holy gently caress there was some serious sandbagging in a lot of those encounters by everyone involved depending on what needs to move the plot forward. In Destiny, well... it's kinda telling when the first time Kira is genuinely surprised is when another named character actually dodges an attack from his mobile suit. It wasn't even fancy either, he just... flew straight in and tried to swing on the Impulse. Strike Freedom is pretty much invincible, or people do very weird stuff against him in their fights, or sometimes he busts out clutch moves like throwing both of his guns in the air, catching anti-ship swords with the Strike Freedom's beam shields, destroying said weapon with his own perfectly positioned hip mounted rail guns, and then catching both of his guns when they probably would have just fallen in the goddamn ocean. Yeah the choreography is straight rear end in SEED outside of some stuff they clearly spent a lot of time on (Aegis vs Strike, Freedom v Providence, Freedom v Impulse)
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