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Eric the Mauve posted:As always, the value of the stock options is $0. I was shocked at how well they nailed my current salary. I certainly did NOT tell them, and it’s actually illegal for them to ask here so it didn’t come up. I know a few people at one of the startups, and my sense is that neither are deathmarch cultures. The field is chemical process development, so deathmarch paces are literally unsafe and a good way to get people killed (and the company shut down). The established companies just aren’t doing new process R&D like this, so the only way to get experience in new systems is through startups. It’s a fairly small community of people who can do this kind of work too, and reputation has value for future earnings at my level. I’ll probably found a startup or move into a technical consulting role in the future, so broadening my network by working with more people is valuable. I’ve been plugging job titles and similar employers into glassdoor and Payscale. They basically hit the 60th percentile on base pay. Top end looks like $170k. My plan right now is to give the other startup time to see if they can get an offer together and counter with something like $180k base pay and see what they say.
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Jan 28, 2022 15:10
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Dobbs_Head posted:I was shocked at how well they nailed my current salary. I certainly did NOT tell them, and it’s actually illegal for them to ask here so it didn’t come up. A few weeks ago I read that this data is available for purchase via Equifax or something.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:14
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Mantle posted:A few weeks ago I read that this data is available for purchase via Equifax or something. Available for free here to see your own data: https://employees.theworknumber.com/ It's very comprehensive.
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Jan 28, 2022 19:18
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e: accidental double post
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Jan 28, 2022 19:18
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Inner Light posted:Available for free here to see your own data: https://employees.theworknumber.com/ Man I hate the credit bureaus. I literally never want to do business with them. But I can’t escape them. 
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Jan 28, 2022 19:59
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So I just got my first offer from company A after going through rounds at a few different companies. I'm about to have a call with company B, where based on what they've told me, I should expect to hear an offer from them too. Company A offered me 15k more than I'm expecting company B to offer me, but of course I want to hear them out all the same. How do you approach an offer interview when you already have a (probably higher) one? Do I get specific and tell them how much A offered me? edit: The end goal here is probably to give me more leverage with company A, because I think I would like working there more. But if B doesn't offer me as much as A, I'm not really sure how I can use that second offer to negotiate for more.
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Jan 28, 2022 20:24
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first move tengen posted:So I just got my first offer from company A after going through rounds at a few different companies. I'm about to have a call with company B, where based on what they've told me, I should expect to hear an offer from them too. Company A offered me 15k more than I'm expecting company B to offer me, but of course I want to hear them out all the same. I usually wait for them to give me the offer, then I ask my first choice for like highest offer +20% then fall back down the sequence of offers
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Jan 28, 2022 20:27
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Dobbs_Head posted:Man I hate the credit bureaus. I literally never want to do business with them. But I can’t escape them.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:23
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Applied for a job that has a listed salary range of 99000 - 148400 on the website. Went thru the interviews, etc. and the company wants to hire me. The hiring manager asked me how much I was expecting and I told them at the top of the range for the position and they seemed kinda weirded out and said they never hire people at the top of the range. My response was that it was odd to advertise that as the range if they weren't willing to hire people for that amount. The hiring manager is going back to the team to see what they can do. Did I mess something up or are they being as weird as I think they are? I've been at my current place for ~12 years, so it's been a while since I've had to negotiate, other than telling a couple places that wanted to hire me "no thanks" to low ball offers less than my current comp.
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Jan 29, 2022 03:10
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Literally any number you named, they would have looked at you weirdly, because they're trying to talk you down and get your labor for as cheaply as possible. They'll say anything, anything in an attempt to get you for less money. I have been lied to shamelessly by so many recruiters.
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Jan 29, 2022 03:24
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MrLogan posted:Applied for a job that has a listed salary range of 99000 - 148400 on the website. Went thru the interviews, etc. and the company wants to hire me. Nope, you're good.
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Jan 29, 2022 03:24
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Yep, thirding this. Acting astonished and offended at the first number the other party names is a bog standard negotiating tactic that's been in all the How To Negotiate books for 50 years. Alternatively, suppose he's telling you the truth: that would be a red flag you could cover a skyscraper with, it would mean he flat out admitted to you that the advertised range is a deceptive bait-and-switch. But more likely it's just Negotiatin'. If I were a betting man I'd bet they'll offer about 105, you'll counter with 145, and you'll settle around 125 which is pretty much what they had in mind from the get-go, hence why it's the center of the range. Depending how good your BATNA is you could play hardball but you have to be willing to walk away if you go that route. (The actual straight-up willingness to walk away if you don't get what you want is critical to all negotiating success, though.) Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 04:25
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They probably looked at your weird because the top end is suspiciously close to 150k but you settled for 148 so they're confused as they were planning on talking you down from 150. Not really. Sorta. The correct solution here was to ask for 160 and look at them weird when they countered at 148 and you guys settle on 152 or whatever TLDR you already left 4k on the table just asking for their max ALWAYS overbid, weird looks cost nothing and you can always walk it back if you were truly too greedy (258k) they already think you're the best candidate, they're gonna be very flexible to get you to sign that contract so they can get going on whatever project they have in mind TLDR2 take their max, then ask 10-25% above that and negotiate down to their max. Edit 2: people seem to forget that salary negotiations happen in a vacuum, nothing you say in salary negotiations can hurt you, and almost none of the time does anyone fact check you. Worst case scenario is your fall for classic tactics and get underpaid, best case scenario you get 50% above top of band and your boss super respects you for being such a hard negotiator. Your boss doesn't get paid any less because you got true market value for your skills, so they super don't care that you're fleecing the company. Weird looks mean nothing in the long term Hadlock fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 10:28
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Inner Light posted:Available for free here to see your own data: https://employees.theworknumber.com/
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Jan 29, 2022 16:12
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Inner Light posted:Available for free here to see your own data: https://employees.theworknumber.com/ Has anyone done this? Is it a scam or what? Magnetic North posted:I finally got a response for my request for as raise that I brought up in October. I knew it was going to take until the new year, but it's not going into effect until March, so let's call it 5 months of waiting. It's 10%, instead of the 20% I needed to stay at market in October, and honestly that gap is now closer to 25% now. Also, that 10% is basically the COLA from when I started in 2019 at a total of 8.8. If I had left in November and gotten my 20% (which I think was at least plausible considering the market), then in 5 months I would have already made up a big chunk of this raise. I agree that it is to the thread's benefit for people to talk about coming around to realizing their value and ruthlessly chasing paper. Relatedly, it can be a slog to get that next job. I find stories that aren't just "I got paid 30% more!" instructive and helpful.
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Jan 29, 2022 16:56
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spf3million posted:What the hell, can anyone just buy this report and see my entire work history going back to highschool? Jesus. Yeah, they can. Pretty sure you can freeze it but it's a PITA of course. One time when I refused to tell a recruiter what I was making she made a snide remark along the lines of "well we'll just look it up later so why not just tell me now?" I told her to pound sand obviously.
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Jan 29, 2022 16:56
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spf3million posted:What the hell, can anyone just buy this report and see my entire work history going back to highschool? Jesus. drat it feels good to be a gangster
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Jan 29, 2022 17:27
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From my understanding, anyone can't just get it without your authorization and you can determine what is shared (e.g., not income history for a background check) but I don't know for sure and I'm seeing conflicting things online.
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Jan 29, 2022 17:36
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a dingus posted:Yeah, they can. Pretty sure you can freeze it but it's a PITA of course. One time when I refused to tell a recruiter what I was making she made a snide remark along the lines of "well we'll just look it up later so why not just tell me now?" I told her to pound sand obviously. Chaotic Flame posted:From my understanding, anyone can't just get it without your authorization and you can determine what is shared (e.g., not income history for a background check) but I don't know for sure and I'm seeing conflicting things online. Basically, it's not just a "here's person x's whole history" in order to have the info you either need to be working for a fed or state government OR your employer is subscribed and you ok'd it as part of onboarding. The former makes up a lot of their numbers but it's pretty trivial to determine someone's federal salary. If your job isn't government I don't know how likely it is you are in their system but its probably not as likely as the scare articles are letting on since they are deliberately using phrases like "many salaries" instead of actual numbers.
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Jan 29, 2022 19:08
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Talx and others like it suck poo poo. I basically ignored whatever data it had when I was reviewing background checks.
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Jan 30, 2022 02:26
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e: wrong thread
UnleashedDad fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Feb 1, 2022 |
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Feb 1, 2022 01:06
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Boot and Rally posted:Has anyone done this? Is it a scam or what? I know the person you're quoting replying to you is not very credible, but no it's not a scam, and yes I did it. Many, many years of history. (The Work Number is owned by Equifax, as is TALX mentioned upthread which has been rebranded) There is an even more comprehensive service that I didn't link, this LexisNexis one here: https://consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/ That has all of the information in the salary history report and much more..... every insurance I've ever had, every claim ever made (CLUE report included), creditworthiness history, etc. It is truly insane the amount of information, and therefore power, Lexis and the credit bureaus have over the American public. Better hope there aren't more significant breaches than what has already occurred. Inner Light fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Feb 1, 2022 |
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Feb 1, 2022 01:22
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I have a interview tomorrow and the job has a salary range of 45 - 75. Should I aim for 75 or even higher right off the bat with negotiation?
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Feb 1, 2022 21:13
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aperfectcirclefan posted:I have a interview tomorrow and the job has a salary range of 45 - 75. Should I aim for 75 or even higher right off the bat with negotiation? So, there's no one cool rule, but yes, generally you go high to gain the advantage of "Anchoring". Knowing your market rate would be super great. I believe you're not in tech so some of the advice bandied around here (double the posted rate!) might work in Tech but might get your resume trashcanned in other jobs. Typically, let them name the first number and go from there if you don't have a good target. If you can't, try to get a reasonable view of your market and the pay rate. If you think you're probably worth 50-60 I'd definitely name closer to the top of their range (I'd actually say go slightly above or slightly below, it's a better anchor than just repeating their number). If you think you're closer to 45k you might get more traction not flirting with their top, since production line jobs or the like can be directly tied to what you are allowed/certified to do, so the pay scale may just follow that. What industry/job is this?
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Feb 1, 2022 21:22
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It's a programming job. I have a outstanding job offer for $50k elsewhere so it'd have to be at least that. I was hoping more towards the 60 or 70 range since its a long commute back and forth (1.5 hrs each way) but for that amount of money it'd be worth it (I make $35k now) i believe. Thanks for the help.
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Feb 1, 2022 21:28
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aperfectcirclefan posted:It's a programming job. I have a outstanding job offer for $50k elsewhere so it'd have to be at least that. I was hoping more towards the 60 or 70 range since its a long commute back and forth (1.5 hrs each way) but for that amount of money it'd be worth it (I make $35k now) i believe. Are you in the US? We pay our 1st year interns more than that (adjusted to an annual salary), and they only work for us for like 10 weeks.
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Feb 1, 2022 21:32
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skipdogg posted:Are you in the US? We pay our 1st year interns more than that (adjusted to an annual salary), and they only work for us for like 10 weeks. Yeah, I'm just in a extremely rural area unfortunately so any job that requires in-person (like this one) is hours away.
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Feb 1, 2022 21:33
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Can you get a studio nearby with all the extra money? I guess if you have pets or other responsibilities that's a no-go Do they know you live in another state? The fact that they know this and are still willing to hire you seems like a massive red flag, unless they get a written statement that you intend to move to the same city as the office within N days/weeks. Or maybe you're just flipping amazing at whatever niche you do I've done 1.0 hr commutes before, 1.5hr each way sounds especially brutal
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Feb 1, 2022 21:42
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I would seriously consider a remote position. Rural and needing to be in person means they probably only have you as an applicant, and that sounds really goddamn low for a salary regardless. Edit: sorry, misread that you're in a rural area and the position isn't necessarily, but the rest still stands.
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Feb 1, 2022 21:43
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The important thing for tomorrow is to not state your current salary and make sure they are the first people to lobby a number. Negotiation should come after they have already decided to hire you. I'm a programmer too. And I can get very anxious in social situations -- having a script really helps me maintain composure instead of blurting things out. Here are some phrases I had at hand in case someone got pushy about it. Maybe they'll help you too. "I'd like to learn more about the position and workload before discussing salary" "I'm open to negotiation but sure XYZ company has competitive compensation plans" "It's hard for me to pinpoint a base compensation target without knowing all the specifics of a compensation package"
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Feb 1, 2022 21:43
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Hadlock posted:Can you get a studio nearby with all the extra money? I guess if you have pets or other responsibilities that's a no-go Or he seems willing to do the job for one-third the current going rate, which will get any management type all hot and bothered
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Feb 1, 2022 21:44
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Thanks for all the help. I dunno that seems to be the range for a programmer of my skill set just entering the market (I mostly work with WordPress which is like real programmings stupid little brother). I do have a wife and pets so I would just get a room in a apartment or something for when the weather is so bad I can't drive back otherwise i'd hoof it every day the 3 hours. It's not unusual for people from this area to travel that far for work tbh. Its in the same state so thats not a huge issue. I'd vastly vastly prefer a remote position but I haven't had much luck in that regard over these in-person jobs which yeah, i'm probably only getting attention because i'm the only one stupid enough to do it lol.
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Feb 1, 2022 21:54
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Off topic, but all I can say is if you take on that commute, caffeinate and be careful. I did the 1 hr each way too years ago and quickly gave it up as it was hard to be alert and safe all that extra time on the road every single day.
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Feb 2, 2022 01:49
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drat I should have asked in here earlier, I just finished the hiring process for an engineering (non-software) position for after I finish grad school this summer and in the initial screening call they told me the target range was 120-130k, and when I got the offer letter it was for 130k. They called me up the day before the offer letter was sent to tell me what the offer was - would that have been the time to negotiate or after I got the letter? It felt like it was pretty quick and on the spot and while I'm by no means displeased with the offer I wonder if I could have gotten a bit more (it's too late for that though I suppose).
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Feb 2, 2022 02:01
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Shipon posted:drat I should have asked in here earlier, I just finished the hiring process for an engineering (non-software) position for after I finish grad school this summer and in the initial screening call they told me the target range was 120-130k, and when I got the offer letter it was for 130k. They called me up the day before the offer letter was sent to tell me what the offer was - would that have been the time to negotiate or after I got the letter? It felt like it was pretty quick and on the spot and while I'm by no means displeased with the offer I wonder if I could have gotten a bit more (it's too late for that though I suppose). If you agreed to the offer verbally, then it may be hard to walk it back and try to negotiate. If you didn't commit, then the door is still open for negotiation.
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Feb 2, 2022 02:18
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Shipon posted:drat I should have asked in here earlier, I just finished the hiring process for an engineering (non-software) position for after I finish grad school this summer and in the initial screening call they told me the target range was 120-130k, and when I got the offer letter it was for 130k. They called me up the day before the offer letter was sent to tell me what the offer was - would that have been the time to negotiate or after I got the letter? It felt like it was pretty quick and on the spot and while I'm by no means displeased with the offer I wonder if I could have gotten a bit more (it's too late for that though I suppose). Yes, though if it makes you feel better I usually have a pretty tight band for new grads, though you probably could have gotten another 5-10k or possibly a bit more PTO. But yes, until you say "All your terms sound good, I'll join" you can negotiate and when they gave you a number that was when you could have countered.
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Feb 2, 2022 02:20
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downout posted:If you agreed to the offer verbally, then it may be hard to walk it back and try to negotiate. If you didn't commit, then the door is still open for negotiation. True, but it's also important to note that companies have no issue doing the same. Just recently I accepted an offer verbally, then a week later I get a call from HR telling me they can't actually offer me that. Specifically, they wanted to reduce the amount of RSUs in the offer by $20k, and keep everything else the same. My next question, of course, was "what else can you do for me?". Not as simple when the roles are reversed, but if you really feel that you're being shortchanged, it almost certainly won't hurt to bring it up. The worst I can see them saying is that the offer is firm, and then you have a decision. If you haven't signed off on it, there's still time, just make sure you can provide some good evidence/research to back up what you're asking for.
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Feb 2, 2022 19:47
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Shipon posted:drat I should have asked in here earlier, I just finished the hiring process for an engineering (non-software) position for after I finish grad school this summer and in the initial screening call they told me the target range was 120-130k, and when I got the offer letter it was for 130k. They called me up the day before the offer letter was sent to tell me what the offer was - would that have been the time to negotiate or after I got the letter? It felt like it was pretty quick and on the spot and while I'm by no means displeased with the offer I wonder if I could have gotten a bit more (it's too late for that though I suppose). if you haven't actually accepted then you can negotiate and you should since it's good practice however, it's very unlikely that you get anything more since engineering pay bands for new grads are pretty well locked in.
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Feb 2, 2022 19:51
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:if you haven't actually accepted then you can negotiate and you should since it's good practice Yeah, fresh grads for engineering are the poster child for the pay equity movement and as such are the most likely to be rigid in my experience (ChemE and MechE manufacturing).
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Feb 2, 2022 19:58
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Ugh, I've received a counter-counter offer that is 20k more than the original offer but still well below my counter. It's a generous offer by any standards but this may be the best labor market for computer touchers in my lifetime and it's really hard to justify jumping to play startup lottery for what is basically equal to my current package if I assume I'll always get 100% of my bonus target at my current spot and the equity options turn into nothing at the new place. My current job isn't on levels and the new startup isn't either so it's hard to do direct comps. I know they can't pay FAANG salaries but I was hoping for something that started with a 2 for senior SRE. Original offer was 170k and 2500 options. My counter was aggressive, 245k, 3500 options, 10k signing. The counter counter was 180k base, 3000 options, and 10k signing. I guess I don't really have a negotiation question and should go ask one of the tech threads. They said 190k was their limit for cash for the position, I'm wondering if I should bother with another ask a little higher than that. I already told them I'd need until the end of the week to think about it. They didn't seem to be interested in adding anything when I didn't agree immediately
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Feb 2, 2022 22:33
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