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I've met Jimmy Carr a couple of times and granted I'm just some random woman on the street but you know what? He IS lovely, face to face and nothing like his stage persona which you kind of have to see him "off" to realise isn't him. I don't believe for a minute he seriously thinks it was a good thing the Nazis persecuted the Roma But. Whether he thinks that or not is irrelevant, as is his personal demeanor. He still thought that that joke, in this climate in particular but at all, really, was good to tell and for that and many more reasons the guy is a prick. He might have been doing a character doing that bit but the character didn't decide to do it, he did. Anyone coming out and saying "oh but he's a sweetheart really" as if that negates the act of using his platform to put that poo poo into the world is wilfully missing the point and if anything it ought to be a point of reflection that people acting mannered can hide toxic lovely people underneath. Nobody should be defending this
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Feb 6, 2022 00:12
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Julio Cruz posted:it's a show about a group of horrible people being horrible to each other, I get enough of that in real life without having it take up my leisure time as well Exactly. But you'll always get some oblivious cretin saying "LOL, everyone's got a David Brent in their office, it's so clever!" without realising that it's a show about a loving terrible place to work and hence their own life is poo poo.
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Feb 6, 2022 00:14
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Isomermaid posted:I've met Jimmy Carr a couple of times and granted I'm just some random woman on the street but you know what? He IS lovely, face to face and nothing like his stage persona which you kind of have to see him "off" to realise isn't him. I don't believe for a minute he seriously thinks it was a good thing the Nazis persecuted the Roma Obviously it’s an extreme example but it’s bit like saying that Hitler loved animals. Coren is getting piled on on Twitter, rightly.
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Feb 6, 2022 00:15
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I find it odd to imagine that when people have multiple behavioural codes which they switch between, that the most favourable one, or the one that they use in person, is necessarily the "real" one and has some sort of primacy over the others. I personally would suggest that if you have to pick a "real" one it is the one that is used around the most people, as that is the one that will have the greatest effect on the world at large. Though I would also suggest that ultimately there is no such thing as a "real" self and that all portrayed selves are as real as each other.
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Feb 6, 2022 00:16
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Jedit posted:"LOL, everyone's got a David Brent in their office, it's so clever!" If you find someone saying this, they probably are a David Brent.
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Feb 6, 2022 00:16
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Borrovan posted:The amazing thing is that those are such loving easy lowball questions, literally anyone with even a passing familiarity of human communication could have said "yes I have spoken to the PM at length, our conversations have been extremely positive and I feel he is making great strides towards fixing the culture &c &c" or some such nonsense. Like, do you think she's that weirdly combative all the time, like someone in the shop asks "how are you today" and she's just all "why are you asking that, that is a very vague and open ended question, I will not be telling you the details of my day" From a few pages back, but I thought this was a really good point and something that seems to be becoming more prevalent but going totally unmentioned by UK political reporting. Very crudely, it feels like there's a strain of right wing politician - from pre Brexit Faragists through to a growing segment of the current Tory party - who have either figured out or simply capitalised on the general principle that the media analyses and comments on tone far more than content. So being hyper aggressive and combative, even to the point of abject absurdity is fine because the point is that you are aggressive and combative, not that you are utterly delusional. Trump typified this, but it's definitely a wider reaching problem, and solely benefits the confident narcissist who loves the sound of their own voice and is willing to shout down anyone who says that the sky is blue, safe in the knowledge that the coverage will barely touch on the implications that such a dangerous disconnection from reality would have
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Feb 6, 2022 00:51
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Marmaduke! posted:These people will use Corbyn's statement about a couple of specific Jewish people not understanding irony as a grave antisemitic slur, but if he'd simply joked about the murder of millions of Jews then that would have been acceptable, apparently. And dear God I'm not even strawmanning here, Victoria Coren literally said it would have been fine in a later tweet. https://twitter.com/VictoriaCoren/status/1490051336007831552?cxt=HHwWgMC-vfTy3K0pAAAA
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Feb 6, 2022 01:04
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Isomermaid posted:I've met Jimmy Carr a couple of times and granted I'm just some random woman on the street but you know what? He IS lovely, face to face and nothing like his stage persona which you kind of have to see him "off" to realise isn't him. I don't believe for a minute he seriously thinks it was a good thing the Nazis persecuted the Roma Completely agree with all of this. I know someone who worked with Carr and, like you, they found him basically personable, professional and small l liberal in person. But this kind of joke is just indefensible poo poo. There may be a place for edgy/offensive jokes, but this one is just lazy and poo poo because it solely rests on the idea that audience agrees with it. You could maybe, very generously, see a hypothetical version of this joke that makes the audience complicit and where the joke is that anyone laughing is agreeing with the Nazis, but this wasn't it at all
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Feb 6, 2022 01:06
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Isomermaid posted:I've met Jimmy Carr a couple of times and granted I'm just some random woman on the street but you know what? He IS lovely, face to face and nothing like his stage persona which you kind of have to see him "off" to realise isn't him. I don't believe for a minute he seriously thinks it was a good thing the Nazis persecuted the Roma Yes, I honestly do think he's probably in reality a very personable guy who is, in his head, just making an silly joke. I do not believe he earnestly doesn't give a gently caress about the genocide of roma etc in the holocaust, much less thinks it was a good thing. I'd have found it hilarious as an edgy 16 year old, but he's still running with that as a 49 year old man. Now I'd ask what exactly the joke is, because you can absolutely do that kind of dark humour if you're making a point, but this isn't saying anything, it's just pure punching down. There's nothing there beyond sheer shock value, which doesn't do much for me now. In the current political context though it's less about Carr himself and more about the response. This is a media establishment that earnestly thought Corbyn pronouncing Epstein properly was some damning evidence of antisemitism. If anyone on the left said what he'd said they would (rightly) have been totally condemned for it. But because he's pals with them it's totally fine. It's just so nakedly hypocritical. At least Baddiel of all people is calling him out though, which is nice, and it's good to see some consistency from the prick, but the fact he's in the minority speaks volumes about the way power works in Britain. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Feb 6, 2022 |
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Feb 6, 2022 01:33
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ThomasPaine posted:Every public figure I have ever had a crush on is a monster, even the ones I previously thought were good or at least just neutral, lol If my personal friend made a poo poo joke in bad taste, I would defend them publicly too, as long as I was confident in my judgement to count them as a friend.
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Feb 6, 2022 01:36
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Niric posted:So being hyper aggressive and combative, even to the point of abject absurdity is fine because the point is that you are aggressive and combative, not that you are utterly delusional. That's an interesting thing in itself, which ones of the confident narcissists end up being told to shut the hell up by a judge or getting into a firefight with a Mountie, which ones end up as self-sustaining conspiracy theorists or alternative facts merchants or whatever, and which ones manage to translate that tone into the conventional corridors of power. Or manage some combination, from UKIP's Turkey green screen videos to Trump's Four Seasons Total Landscaping press conference to the (hilarious, if you have time for four hours of courtroom) Alex Jones legal deposition. I think in a few years time there's going to be a bunch of sociology and media studies dissertations about what and where that line is. ThomasPaine posted:Now I'd ask what exactly the joke is Fred Clark, 'Look over your shoulder' posted:“Wait … you’re not Polish, are you?” people would ask before telling one of the Polish jokes that were popular when I was a kid. If someone said yes, they’d change it to an Italian joke because they weren’t worried about it being wrong, they were worried about it meeting with disapproval. In both cases it's playing around the semiotic edges of "you can't say that (but I wish you could)", whether it admits it or not. That's what the joke is. Maybe it would be illuminating to hear directly from him why he picked the GRT community instead of some boilerplate "sorry for any offense caused".
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Feb 6, 2022 01:42
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Communist Bear posted:That's going to go down like a lead balloon.. Yeah, some of my fb friends are absolutely frothing at the thought of Queen Camilla. I couldn't give a cuss.
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Feb 6, 2022 01:45
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Former BBC journalist Guto Harri is joining Mr Johnson’s team as director of communications. He was Mr Johnson’s spokesman and chief of staff during his first term as London mayor. source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-latest-sunak-savile-rebellion-b2008274.html quote:Who is Boris Johnson’s spin doctor Guto Harri? So why the fk has he become director of communications? I would have expected Laura to have taken the job but maybe she knows she'd be tying herself to the mast of a sinking ship.
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Feb 6, 2022 01:51
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Yeah, some of my fb friends are absolutely frothing at the thought of Queen Camilla. It's amazing how little they seem to get the concept of monarchy, once he's got the big hat on Charles can give her the title Empress Of The Moon and force everyone to give her any spare buttons they have on their person when they meet her because that's what happens when you have monarchs.
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Feb 6, 2022 01:59
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Guto was the prick who threatened to beat up a journalist in a lift, right?
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Feb 6, 2022 01:59
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Wasn't he the guy who took the knee on GB News and then resigned and then it was all some publicity play, or was that someone else?
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Feb 6, 2022 02:02
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Guavanaut posted:Wasn't he the guy who took the knee on GB News and then resigned and then it was all some publicity play, or was that someone else? Yeah it was him. Another giving the lie that the BBC 'news' journalists are anything but a bastion of right-wing tory worshippers.
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Feb 6, 2022 02:10
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OwlFancier posted:I find it odd to imagine that when people have multiple behavioural codes which they switch between, that the most favourable one, or the one that they use in person, is necessarily the "real" one and has some sort of primacy over the others. Nah, everyone has different personas in different situations. Imagine what a crushing bore - or total danger - someone would be who was exactly the same with their boss, their mum, their oldest friends and some random person on the street, and I'd be horrified if you tell me the chirpy lower-middle-class act I put on at work was the true me, even though there are definitely more people who've seen that than have seen the me I consider the real me. This goes double for standup, especially at the lower levels, because if you let the "real" you out on that stage you'd be dead by the fourth gig. The sheer howling void of a joke not landing - the amazing way that a room full of people can be so much quieter than a completely empty one - will tear your soul straight out of your arse if you let it, and so you better make sure that it's not "you" throwing yourself into that abyss.
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Feb 6, 2022 02:15
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That does explain well why there's a certain vocal group who aren't overt bigots yet are seemingly terrified of some group of Others 'ruining comedy' more than actual bigots are, as if they're worried about their core psychic defenses being torn down. I wonder if there's any way to reach them without providing a big top worth of cover for the "just a joke, like on ("Just tell jokes that aren't cunty to massive groups of people" doesn't seem to be it.  )
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Feb 6, 2022 02:24
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Ha yes I didn't realize the layout of our office means me talking to my computer can be heard crystal clear by my boss until I happened to remark 'You fascist pig' when xero refused to play ball on something, and a burst of laughter came from her office followed by 'I love hearing you talk to your computer'.
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Feb 6, 2022 02:31
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Nah, everyone has different personas in different situations. Imagine what a crushing bore - or total danger - someone would be who was exactly the same with their boss, their mum, their oldest friends and some random person on the street, and I'd be horrified if you tell me the chirpy lower-middle-class act I put on at work was the true me, even though there are definitely more people who've seen that than have seen the me I consider the real me. You can have different personas, yes, but the person I am at work is still me, it's quite different from the person I want to be all the time (it would be more different if I were more committed to me job, and my unwillingness to compartmentalize too much is part of why I am not that committed, it's why I won't do sales for example) and it's different from the person I am around people I love, but I don't really think I can disclaim ownership of it. It manifestly is the person I am a lot of the time, I spend time being that person, that I don't like it does not make it somehow "not me" I don't think. It is as much me as any of the other selves I am is. And that I am sometimes forced to be someone I really don't want to be is an indictment of society for putting that on me and also, to a degree, myself for going along with it. It is as much myself as anything else though, it would be absurd for me to believe otherwise. I get the same comments about voices, I have a few different ways of speaking depending (often automatically) on who I'm speaking to, or what I'm speaking about, and when people see me do that they often say "you should use your real voice" and that bugs me because they're all my real voice, I don't have one that's real and others that aren't, they're all just how I speak, it changes depending on the circumstances, the idea that I should have one that is somehow more authentic just doesn't make sense to me. People often like to say, when they are caught doing something they get in trouble for "that's not me, it's not who I am" and while I understand that they are professing that they do not like the thing they did (or at least, that they got caught doing it) I have to ask the question, who the gently caress else was it, then? There's only you in there, there's only one mind piloting your body. They don't just mean the figurative meaning of that either, they often say it as if they believe they can actually distance themselves from the things they did in lieu of accepting that they did them and they're responsible for doing them. This is also why I really dislike like the idea of god granted absolution as well, because I think it encourages the same way of thinking, that you can just choose to not engage with some parts of yourself, I think having ready access to that way of thinking through whatever mechanism is a big enabler of people being persistently lovely because this idea of people having a "real" self that matters over the things they actually do a bunch of the time, and even the things they do that have the biggest impact on the world, keeps on coming up. It seems to be very much beloved by the right. We are all our selves, and if we don't like some of the people we are then it behooves us to either change them or to change the world so that we aren't forced to be them, depending on the circumstances. That society forces people to be people they don't want to be is a major source of my conflict with it, and that a lot of people spend their time being people I don't want them to be (but which they may imagine is somehow separate from their "real selves" as people recently spent time arguing about that tory who got murdered ("oh he was lovely in person don't bring up his voting record") is a major source of my contention with them. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Feb 6, 2022 |
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Feb 6, 2022 02:43
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OwlFancier posted:You can have different personas, yes, but the person I am at work is still me, it's quite different from the person I want to be all the time (it would be more different if I were more committed to me job, and my unwillingness to compartmentalize too much is part of why I am not that committed, it's why I won't do sales for example) and it's different from the person I am around people I love, but I don't really think I can disclaim ownership of it. It manifestly is the person I am a lot of the time, I spend time being that person, that I don't like it does not make it somehow "not me" I don't think. It is as much me as any of the other selves I am is. And that I am sometimes forced to be someone I really don't want to be is an indictment of society for putting that on me and also, to a degree, myself for going along with it. It is as much myself as anything else though, it would be absurd for me to believe otherwise. This is pretty much on point, imo We always tailor ourselves to our audience, but that's still us, and it's hollow to say 'oh no that's not the real me'. It's always the real you. You aren't the idealised image you think you are in your brain, you are what you say and do. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Feb 6, 2022 |
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Feb 6, 2022 03:09
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ThomasPaine posted:At least Baddiel of all people is calling him out though, which is nice, and it's good to see some consistency from the prick, but the fact he's in the minority speaks volumes about the way power works in Britain. Oof, so close. https://twitter.com/baddiel/status/1489992363325931522
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Feb 6, 2022 04:57
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I see Victoria Coren Mitchell has come out in defence of Carr's celebratory holocaust "joke"... Unbelievable.
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Feb 6, 2022 07:37
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I mean I don't think VCM has ever spoke out at all about her brother being a gigantic, racist piece of poo poo so it's not that surprising?
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Feb 6, 2022 08:16
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ThomasPaine posted:Yes, I honestly do think he's probably in reality a very personable guy who is, in his head, just making an silly joke. I do not believe he earnestly doesn't give a gently caress about the genocide of roma etc in the holocaust, much less thinks it was a good thing. I'd have found it hilarious as an edgy 16 year old, but he's still running with that as a 49 year old man. Yeah the shocking thing really is just the audience whooping and hollering, not the content of the joke itself or who told it, as it shows where this culture is at when it comes to GRT hatred. Like, if you wanted to be charitable to Carr it wouldn’t be inconceivable that he was gunning for the classic ‘wince, gasp, muted laughter at the awkwardness of it’ response you’d typically get with an edgy-joke-gone-too-far routine. but no, the audience loving loved it, which is pretty horrifying. Answers Me fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Feb 6, 2022 |
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Feb 6, 2022 09:07
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WHOMST AMONGST UST could have predicted that Jimmy Carr's monster-fighting and abyss-gazing would cause so much collateral angst. A quote comes to mind, maybe Jimmy could think about this. I know he's reading. "To get to the bottom of something, sometimes you have to remind yourself that if you don’t risk anything, you risk everything. And the biggest risk you can take is to risk nothing. And if you risk nothing, what you’re really doing is risking not getting to the bottom of something. And if you don’t get to the bottom of something, you risk everything." Says it all, I think.
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Feb 6, 2022 09:18
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nurmie posted:honestly if the royals have got any sense of self-preservation left whatsoever they should skip charles and just make william king, imo The issue you've got with this is that Charles's affairs have become public knowledge and largely forgiven/forgotten. Meanwhile William is still actively engaged in affairs but no one on the British press is talking about it yet so that scandal is still waiting to burst.
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Feb 6, 2022 09:30
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Answers Me posted:Yeah the shocking thing really is just the audience whooping and hollering, not the content of the joke itself or who told it, as it shows where this culture is at when it comes to GRT hatred. The fact that pretty much everyone 'well known' who is publicly calling Carr out for the joke also spends most of their life making GBS threads all over GRT groups and individuals, makes the entirely appropriate condemnation ring very hollow.
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Feb 6, 2022 10:10
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Isomermaid posted:I've met Jimmy Carr a couple of times and granted I'm just some random woman on the street but you know what? He IS lovely, face to face and nothing like his stage persona which you kind of have to see him "off" to realise isn't him. I don't believe for a minute he seriously thinks it was a good thing the Nazis persecuted the Roma I hear Roy Chubby Brown is a lovely guy off stage, he's still a massive racist oval office. Jimmy's whole gimmick is based on his audience knowing it's ironic. The second the audience isn't in it for the irony it's just straight racism.
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Feb 6, 2022 10:23
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Not gonna lie, guys. The state of the discourse is loving revolting and I'm getting seriously depressed by it all. Liberals and the right are once again walking us hand in hand toward a fascist future and the left at kicking each other as much as they are their enemies. Things are going to get really nasty and I think that's absolutely necessary. No amount of tinkering with electorial politics is going to fix this country. I genuinely predict a full on uprising, riots and the like. Birth pains of revolution. I can't even pretend I'm not looking forward to it all.
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Feb 6, 2022 10:59
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Prole posted:I genuinely predict a full on uprising, riots and the like. Birth pains of revolution. I can't even pretend I'm not looking forward to it all. Where were the riots when the Tories killed tens of thousands of disabled nationals? Where were the riots when the first stories came out about people starving to death in their own homes? This current administration are committing literal fraud in front of everyone's eyes, and people are just loudly muttering about that, and that'll be it. We live in a country full of selfish unemphatic passive right-wing idiots.
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Feb 6, 2022 11:07
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ThomasPaine posted:This is pretty much on point, imo We are what we pretend to be So we must be careful about what we pretend to be Edit this quote is from a book about a playwright who is an allied spy who 'ironically' pretends to be a nazi propagandist for access, but winds up doing far too excellent a job at the latter, so it is particularly apposite for Jimmy. If your audience responds to your 'ironic' fascist joke with enthusiastic hoots n hollers then it doesn't matter how nice you are in your heart, you're Doing Fascist Propaganda Barry Foster fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Feb 6, 2022 |
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Feb 6, 2022 11:27
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WhatEvil posted:I mean I don't think VCM has ever spoke out at all about her brother being a gigantic, racist piece of poo poo so it's not that surprising? not to mention he wrote at length about fancying his toddler daughter, if she was a decent person she would have rung the social on him long ago
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Feb 6, 2022 12:14
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If every journalist who wrote a full page spread about how they shouldn't be a teacher because they would molest the children or how they enjoy hiding in the bushes near a playground but only ironically got put away there'd be like two journalists left.
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Feb 6, 2022 12:22
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Some sad parasocial part of me wants to believe that David and Victoria (the Mitchell's not the Beckham's) are nice people, but the circumstantial evidence is strongly weighted towards "severely melty". The Beckham's are actually probably nicer people, although I guess they float on a an ocean of wealth derived from sweatshop labour
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Feb 6, 2022 12:29
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goddamnedtwisto posted:It's amazing how little they seem to get the concept of monarchy, once he's got the big hat on Charles can give her the title Empress Of The Moon and force everyone to give her any spare buttons they have on their person when they meet her because that's what happens when you have monarchs. The Glorious Revolution would like a word with you, mate.
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Feb 6, 2022 12:30
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It's in 17th century Dutch so the word is probably gemmerkoekman or something.
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Feb 6, 2022 12:34
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Guavanaut posted:If every journalist who wrote a full page spread about how they shouldn't be a teacher because they would molest the children or how they enjoy hiding in the bushes near a playground but only ironically got put away there'd be like two journalists left. I'm sure we can think of something for those two as well
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Feb 6, 2022 12:42
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Guavanaut posted:If every journalist who wrote a full page spread about how they shouldn't be a teacher because they would molest the children or how they enjoy hiding in the bushes near a playground but only ironically got put away there'd be like two journalists left. Yes, and?
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Feb 6, 2022 12:55
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