|
Shinjobi posted:Dan Hibiki kicks rear end, you're wrong I believe that falls under "comically the point". It's tied into how people often want to root for the underdog.
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 02:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 14:29 |
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:They are not identical but they're pretty fundamentally linked. I mean this is absolutely not true. People love the struggling underdogs. They want them to get victories but "winning" does not go hand in hand with popularity. Even if you want to discuss like fightmans comics exclusively people fuckin' love Vegeta, the dude who loses so often his most recent powerup is weaponized getting his rear end kicked (and he still lost.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 02:52
|
|
|
Krillin is usually only comically failing in the movies. Other times it's just a hard luck loss.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 02:59
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:People always confuse competence for likability. They aren't the same thing, but competence is a traditional component of likability. You can have likable incompetent characters, like Inspector Clouseau, or dislikable competent characters, like Ryer in 08th MS team (who seems to know his work most of the time, despite the Shiro grudge and the war crimes), but in general, people like characters who are good at their jobs. Even for underdogs, people tend to prefer competent underdogs. Graham is more popular than Setsuna partially because he's the better pilot, while Setsuna relies on a better machine to make up for a deficit in ability.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 03:00
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I mean this is absolutely not true. People love the struggling underdogs. They want them to get victories but "winning" does not go hand in hand with popularity. But in the exact same work, we have Yamcha, a character a lot of people at least meme about hating. Why? Because, despite losing constantly, Vegeta is never treated like a loser. He gets his face stomped in by Frieza or Android 18 or Perfect Cell but he gets awesome moments before it happens like Big Bang and whatnot. He's the only hero who accomplishes anything at the Cell Games apart from Goku and Gohan. Yamcha just gets made a fool of by mummies or Kami, or dies to Saibamen. Also his love interest for the whole series ended up loving and falling in love with his murderer, another point for Vegeta's "not a loser " factor. In the start of the Buu Saga, Vegeta is comically outclassed by Goku who could have just gone SSJ3 and pinky flipped him to death. But no, Vegeta gets a big speech about "MY PRIDE!" and Goku holds back enough they have a long, even fight. Vegeta is never treated as a loser by the narrative, even if he loses.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 03:11
|
|
|
Feel like this a good time to mention Ash Ketchum
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 03:32
|
|
|
Runa posted:Feel like this a good time to mention Ash Ketchum Ash is a weird extreme outlier of a failure protagonist who isn't meant to be a comedic or tragic loser, they just had him be ludicrously bad at being a trainer for no real reason until the Sun/Moon seasons decided that it was time for him to actually be competent(which ironically came right at the same time the show switched to a more comedic style)
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 03:53
|
|
|
Shinjobi posted:Gundam Wing, episode 32: this OZ dude is the funniest. "I'm going to use the brain altering gundam suit to become more than just an NPC," says the dumb guy. With the changes thanks to GoL and Frozen Teardrop I think he's technically Heero's uncle and that's gonna make lol once I hit that stretch of Wing later this year.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 04:51
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:They are not identical but they're pretty fundamentally linked. I wouldn't say that at all. Peter Parker's whole brand identity is being a loser who fails at half the poo poo he does. His too biggest moments are letting his Uncle die to his own lack of responsibility and letting Gwen die. They love the struggle of seeing him try and balance his life and his duty, not seeing him succeed. Basing your support only on winners leads you to insane places where you stan people like Griffith, Delita, or Henry Kissinger I think to be more accurate, rather than winners and losers it's better to think of movers and movees. You know about the episode of House where Dr.House walks around in a circle, and when the Doc Squad asks him what his deal is he tells him that it shows forward movement to the audience. The point being people like to feel that things are changing. Destiny is so loving incompetent that Durandal feels like the only person with a plan, and ethos, and a way of enforcing it. That doesn't make him smart or likeable, cats plan is straight up loving dumb, in universe he manages to get everything except the loyalty of the two kids whom managed to regime change the last government of the polity he controls, and he dumps Talia whose quite the catch. Durandal in SEED is Crash winning the best picture
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 05:26
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:I wouldn't say that at all. Peter Parker's whole brand identity is being a loser who fails at half the poo poo he does. His too biggest moments are letting his Uncle die to his own lack of responsibility and letting Gwen die. They love the struggle of seeing him try and balance his life and his duty, not seeing him succeed. Well, Peter and Uncle Ben isn't a great example because that's an origin story and origin stories almost by necessity involve failure. The soon-to-be hero fails and then their heroism is rectifying that initial failure. If Peter just kept letting people die, that would be tragedy more than a superhero story. A hero needs triumphs. I of course see your overall point. Any hack writer can create a narrative where "everything just falls into place" and the villain only succeeds because of the staggering stupidity of the heroes. That doesn't make the villain compelling by itself, you just end up hating everybody. But I thought Durandal worked well because he wasn't just doing stuff and then everything worked out. He used the right pressure and tactics at the right time. Like with Shinn, all the kid wanted was some recognition and guidance and Durandal gave it to him. Very Prequel Palpatine in a way. I never said Durandal was an amazing character, I just didn't really like anybody in Destiny besides him. It's a terrible loving anime. I took what I could find.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 05:42
|
|
|
Stairmaster posted:https://twitter.com/boyfriem/status/1493265002144403458?s=20&t=kIdd1hda3IpsOANVNDXceQ https://twitter.com/giantrobotfm/status/1493268121599229956
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 05:44
|
|
|
The United States posted:I appreciate this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD2346AopZA I love this anime. 100% unironically love it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 05:47
|
|
|
Durandal is an interesting character specifically because he's portrayed as so competent, reasonable, and kind. He's also pretty openly the driving force behind the massively less evil side of the conflict until pretty much the unveiling of the Destiny Plan. The Destiny Plan is pretty horrifying, but CE is such a loving depressed shitshow of a setting with no clear way out of the cycle of Infinite Genocidal Ethnic Cleansing Wars that you can imagine why people would be willing to go along with it, especially since it's being presented by a leader who has been nothing but kind and generous and gracious up to this point. The Destiny Plan absolutely would not have solved CE's problem of "literally everyone hates each other and wants to genocide each other", but I don't have a lot of faith in Lacus's plan of "I'll take over the world and send Kira and Athrun to shoot anyone who disagrees" either.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 05:57
|
|
|
Tulalip Tulips posted:With the changes thanks to GoL and Frozen Teardrop I think he's technically Heero's uncle and that's gonna make lol once I hit that stretch of Wing later this year. please god elaborate Frozen Teardrop is like LSD--I will never try it, but the stories I hear involving it are beyond batshit
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 06:01
|
|
|
Shinjobi posted:please god elaborate It's been a while but he's Heero's uncle through his step-dad, who gets mercelessly murked so Heero's mon can have complicated feelings about his real dad. Also Frozen Teardrop had deadbeat bounty hunter biker dad Duo, which will never be dropped in my "let animate Frozen Teardop but make it legit good" if I had Bezos money dreams. Legit I sincerely, genuinely no holds barred love Gundam Wing with all its massive flaws.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 06:23
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:I wouldn't say that at all. Peter Parker's whole brand identity is being a loser who fails at half the poo poo he does. His too biggest moments are letting his Uncle die to his own lack of responsibility and letting Gwen die. They love the struggle of seeing him try and balance his life and his duty, not seeing him succeed. Actually, Peter Parker is perfect for this. More specifically, Peter B. Parker. See, you seem to be looking at competence as level of success, and by that metric, Peter Parker isn't competent at all. His life is a loving wreck when we meet him, and his janky broke hobo rear end is the butt of half the jokes in the film. But competence isn't how well you do. You can be a complete screwup who succeeds through no virtue of your own, and you can be a brilliant polymath who gets undone by the decisions of others. Time and chance, as the good book says. And when we see Peter B. Parker Spider-Manning, he's an old pro. ("Watch the hands, not the mouth"). The talk about Durandal here is about him being the one person in the Cosmic Era who actually thinks things through, makes plans, and responds to setbacks by adjusting. His success or failure is relatively unimportant in comparison.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 06:36
|
|
|
Kanos posted:The Destiny Plan absolutely would not have solved CE's problem of "literally everyone hates each other and wants to genocide each other", but I don't have a lot of faith in Lacus's plan of "I'll take over the world and send Kira and Athrun to shoot anyone who disagrees" either. And if the show indicated much awareness that this was the case, these with positions, and those were the stakes it would be a much stronger show. But alas, it doesn't and isn't.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 06:42
|
|
|
CE is the one portion of Gundam where it getting Moonlight Butterflied is unambiguously a good thing
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 07:30
|
|
|
Yeah Durandal is a fairly interesting character which makes him stand out as despite his plan being insane and villainous the heroes are so poorly written they can’t actually make any counter arguments for it in anyway
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 08:13
|
|
|
RevolverDivider posted:Yeah Durandal is a fairly interesting character which makes him stand out as despite his plan being insane and villainous the heroes are so poorly written they can’t actually make any counter arguments for it in anyway I mean, Kira couldn't make a counter-argument for Rau's position of "I should just murder everyone." He is the single worst debater of all Gundam protagonists.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 09:59
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:I mean, Kira couldn't make a counter-argument for Rau's position of "I should just murder everyone." In Kira's defense, that argument was kind of difficult to win at that particular point in time. Rau: "People are loving horrible monsters who do horrible things all the time and everything would be better if they were just dead." Kira: "Nuh-uh!" Rau: "You exist because your father literally stole you from your mom's womb against her protests in order to perform deeply unethical experiments on you to create a genetic ubermensch, and he paid for those experiments by creating a line of genetically flawed and failing clones that are doomed to go insane and die early for an egomaniacal lunatic rich guy, and I'm one of those clones." Kira: "Uhh...." Rau: *gestures at the apocalyptic space war happening around them where two sides are deploying genocidal superweapons against each other in an effort to completely exterminate millions and millions of people solely because of their genetic origin in a conflict which grew out of a completely unprovoked nuclear strike on a civilian colony* Kira: "Well, poo poo." Kanos fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Feb 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 12:00
|
|
|
Kanos posted:In Kira's defense, that argument was kind of difficult to win at that particular point in time. Real talk: Kira's and Rau's exchange about how Rau doesn't understand anything but hate and violence, and Rau responding with "of course, people can only know what they've experienced" was pretty well done. I guess Kira wouldn't really know that this apocalypse was at least in part orchestrated by Rau. But Rau has that Dark Knight Joker thing going on where he says "people are terrible!" and then creates a situation to ensure people are terrible.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 12:21
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Real talk: Kira's and Rau's exchange about how Rau doesn't understand anything but hate and violence, and Rau responding with "of course, people can only know what they've experienced" was pretty well done. Rau did help manipulate Patrick Zala into planning genocide via space laser, but he had nothing to do with the Earth Alliance nuking Junius Seven and being totally rarin' to nuke PLANT.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 12:26
|
|
|
Kanos posted:Rau did help manipulate Patrick Zala into planning genocide via space laser, but he had nothing to do with the Earth Alliance nuking Junius Seven and being totally rarin' to nuke PLANT. Didn't Rau spread the plans for the N-Jammer Canceller across both sides? So while he had nothing to do with the EA being nuke happy, he did give them nukes to begin with.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 12:31
|
|
|
BisbyWorl posted:Didn't Rau spread the plans for the N-Jammer Canceller across both sides? So while he had nothing to do with the EA being nuke happy, he did give them nukes to begin with. The N-Jammers weren't deployed until after Blue Cosmos(well, Blue Cosmos-affiliated EA troops) nuked Junius Seven out of nowhere, at which point ZAFT deployed the N-Jammers to allow a retaliatory strike without their forces getting nuked(or without the EA sneaking some nuke-equipped moebiuses around to nuke PLANT while ZAFT was busy invading). The EA was working on alternate methods of genocidal war crimes that didn't require nukes(the Cyclops System at Alaska), but Rau leaked the N-Jammer canceller plans to them to ensure that the EA would be able to bring nukes to the table against GENESIS to ensure the upcoming genocide was mutual. So yeah, he helped make sure they'd be able to counter-genocide PLANT, but they were absolutely working on their own ways around the N-Jammers with regards to war crimes anyway.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 13:13
|
|
|
Kanos posted:In Kira's defense, that argument was kind of difficult to win at that particular point in time. The response there, (especially seeing as "EVEN SO" wouldn't be developed for a while yet) is tricky and variable based on the protagonist, but there are standard playbooks. An idealist like Loran would bring up the people who weren't trying to do that, while a slightly rougher-around-the-edges idealist like Judau or Garrod might follow it up with "So you murdering psychos can do what you like to each other, but leave us out of it!" Someone like Amuro might focus more on the personal, bringing up that, while his life has struggles, he's still going to keep struggling, because being alive has inherent value that justifies the effort. Kamille Bidan would probably just go for the throat, say it was people like Rau who made the world this way, and that, while killing him wouldn't fix the problem, it would be a drat good start. Kira can't even get to "I'm here to kill you. I can worry about all that after". He was dealt a bad hand, but he also doesn't know how to play it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 13:18
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:The response there, (especially seeing as "EVEN SO" wouldn't be developed for a while yet) is tricky and variable based on the protagonist, but there are standard playbooks. I can't recall if it's in the anime too or just the Gundam vs. Zeta Gundam game but Kamille's line to Haman was amazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9qvaMRkMb8&t=162s "I know what you are, Haman Karn. You're someone who shouldn't be allowed to exist anymore. Return to your world of darkness, Haman Karn!" That would be quite fitting with Rau. I don't see Heero having much of a response to Rau's words. Notably, it was Wufei who tried to engage the villain in moral combat. Heero is just sort of the muscle, Relena is the person with the ideals and vision. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Feb 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 13:40
|
|
|
Mikazuki would just get annoyed at the crazy dude ranting on an open comm channel while he's trying to keep track of how the battle's going.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 13:47
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:The response there, (especially seeing as "EVEN SO" wouldn't be developed for a while yet) is tricky and variable based on the protagonist, but there are standard playbooks. Here's a clip of the scene(complete potato quality, but it's the dub so it's still comprehensible and you get to listen to Dub Rau chewing the scenery to pieces as a bonus): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOpN1r-C_CM Kira doesn't just clam up while Rau dunks on him - he absolutely does give the standard protagonist pushback of "No, you're wrong, not everyone is like that!", and the show does try to give some backbone to Kira's words by the fight scene occurring interspersed with the scenes of Athrun and Cagalli infiltrating GENESIS and scenes of that one ZAFT officer turning on Patrick to stop Patrick from firing GENESIS again. It's just that CE is consistently portrayed as so immensely lovely from almost all angles that the guy saying "You know, maybe people *are* completely irredeemable" sticks with the audience more than the generic protagonist "Nuh-uh!".
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 13:55
|
|
|
tbf Kira being an awful communicator is a consistant character flaw I think. He even keeps it in Space Messiah Mode, Shinn talks circles around both him and Athrun in Destiny despite being the villain there. And there's something to be said for the perfectly-designed superbeing still lacking basic human interaction skills. or less-charitably, he's written like poo poo. either/or 
Yinlock fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Feb 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 19:10
|
|
|
Everyone in seed, especially the soliders/citizens of the earth alliance are protrayed as bloodthirsty lunatics willing to commit genocide at a drop of the hat. So, in a normal world, Rau's completely wrong, but in Seed, he's got a loving point.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 19:14
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:The response there, (especially seeing as "EVEN SO" wouldn't be developed for a while yet) is tricky and variable based on the protagonist, but there are standard playbooks. man EVEN SO is the worst, it just cedes the entire argument to the warcrimer by default
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 19:24
|
|
|
"EVEN SO" kind of works against full frontal because full frontal's argument is that everything is pointless because the universe will experience heat death 50 billion years from now. like, how else do you respond to that other than "Who gives a poo poo about that?"
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 21:22
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:The response there, (especially seeing as "EVEN SO" wouldn't be developed for a while yet) is tricky and variable based on the protagonist, but there are standard playbooks. Honestly, I need to see this in Super Robot Wars. Let me wheel Amuro, Kamille, Char, Garrod, Guy, Koji, Ryoma, and Lelouch over this dude. Actually, give me a Getter/Barbatos team-up attack for dunking Rau. Mika and Ryoma would definitely be on the same channel here. Monaghan posted:"EVEN SO" kind of works against full frontal because full frontal's argument is that everything is pointless because the universe will experience heat death 50 billion years from now. like, how else do you respond to that other than "Who gives a poo poo about that?" The taxi driver in Hathaway has some thoughts.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 22:18
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:Honestly, I need to see this in Super Robot Wars. Let me wheel Amuro, Kamille, Char, Garrod, Guy, Koji, Ryoma, and Lelouch over this dude. It's not quite the same, but the version of the scene in W is fun, because the other characters arguing against Rau also go "Don't worry, Kira. We know you couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag. We've got your back."
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2022 23:04
|
|
|
I feel like the major thing, and it's kinda weird it is even coming up, is that there is not a direct coherent response to "I want to murder everyone" that even a talented person can make. You don't need to explain why genociding the world is a bad thing and to be in the mindset that it's okay to kill all life on the planet because rich people are shitheads basically is like trying to argue against maximum-grand doomerism. No, poor children don't deserve to be melted in microwaves because war exists and people are lovely. But if someone thinks all life on the planet should die to the point they have engineered an apocalypse there's no argument you're going to make that changes their mind or even is relevant because anything you can say is met with "But aren't people assholes???" and... yeah, they are. That doesn't mean everyone deserves to die. For good or ill that's basically the viewpoint the CE holds. "People are largely lovely, selfish and petty but they also can become better." With one end being the Lacus group who basically argues "We can't force people to be better but we can fight to protect those that can't" vs Durandal's "People are always going to be awful and need to be controlled to prevent them from being awful" and in a better-written series both of those arguments will probably find people who support them because there are plenty of people who long for a divine philosopher-king who forces peace onto the world and plenty who find the idea of giving up total control in the name of safety is an unforgivable sin. Rau is the outlier whose viewpoint is "gently caress it, there's no redeeming this shitpile, time for suicide." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Feb 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2022 00:21
|
|
|
Monaghan posted:"EVEN SO" kind of works against full frontal because full frontal's argument is that everything is pointless because the universe will experience heat death 50 billion years from now. like, how else do you respond to that other than "Who gives a poo poo about that?" Did you know that the critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV has a free trial, and includes the entirety of A Realm Reborn AND the award-winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 with no restrictions on playtime? Sign up, and enjoy Eorzea today! In all seriousness, FFXIV actually touches on that exact thing in the Endwalker expansion, and handles it fairly well, I think. I can't go into it without spoilers, so that's a warning before you click on these spoilers The villain is motivated by knowing that, in the long run, all things die and everything ends, and in her massively amplified grief thanks to a lack of beta testing, she decides to use her power to end all life and keep new life from springing up- seeing it as a mercy to do so. This is refuted with a general sentiment of "Even if that is the fate of all things, even if civilizations fall and worlds die, we're here now and we deserve to live, with all the suffering that life entails"
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2022 00:24
|
|
|
A bullet is a pretty coherent response to that
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2022 00:25
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:Did you know that the critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV has a free trial, and includes the entirety of A Realm Reborn AND the award-winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 with no restrictions on playtime? Sign up, and enjoy Eorzea today! Lol that people tried to hype this poo poo up as a great story
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2022 00:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 14:29 |
|
|
Like hell, I'll go to bat for the idea of Destiny as it exists, not even what it theoretically could be. The primary conflict of Freedom vs Destiny (lol) is a perfectly valid one to have. Shin as a character is absolutely logical for following Durandal's plan because he has been at the front and center of people being assholes for the entirety of his life and has seen multiple people close to him die miserably because of it. "gently caress it, you all suck, I'll make you not suck" is a completely reasonable outcome for an angry teenager to take in that regards. Especially one who has grown up in one war and is seeing another happen. Durandal offers an out that stops the violence and combat and Shin can't see any reason that's a bad thing (especially since he is in a position of privilege and power, though that isn't something he genuinely considers when doing it. He just wants people to stop hurting.) Likewise Kira as a character makes perfect sense as someone who is unwilling to submit to being controlled by his genes, because that is literally his backstory. He isn't someone who would suffer in a Destiny Plan world in terms of social standing and status, but he rejects the idea of being forced to do something under the guise of it being necessary and safe. That is the character's primary trait! He intentionally takes the hard and difficult paths even though it personally costs him because he thinks it is the right thing to do, which is why he goes for no-kill fighting or tries to spare people or busts in on Cagalli's wedding or whatever. Freedom isn't just a random name for his mecha any more than Destiny is for Shin's. The writing doesn't back this up because the writing is bad but the primary conflict in the show isn't bad and even the fact that it ends on an unsure and uncomfortable note isn't bad. Like most of the events in Destiny's ending are fine if you have the writing chops to pull it off, they just don't. Destiny is frustrating because it sets up a lot of dominos, sends them tumbling, and then for some reason near the end they wander off into a toilet. But the central conflict there is absolutely fine for a melodrama-ridden show about angsty teenage pilots. Certainly better than Gundam Age's "Um, loving hell, Mars Rays amirite?" Gaius Marius posted:Lol that people tried to hype this poo poo up as a great story Better story than 85% of Gundam shows! ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Feb 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2022 00:34
|
|