NFL N/V Offseason: Sorry folks, I counted him out

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Football Funhouse > NFL N/V Offseason: Sorry folks, I counted him out

«‹›428 »

MrLogan: Feb 4, 2004

BlindSite posted:

The market kind of got blown out by the Stafford trade and I guess by the 9ers moving up for Lance. It was pretty well established that the Panthers believed they had a deal for Stafford for their 8th overall and a third. The obvious caveat was that he's in his 30s and probably had (has?) 2 -5 years of viability left. The Rams knew they had to go high with Detroit and given their first rounder was and figured to be late in the first - they added in the extra first to force the trade.

Watson requested his trade in January - before the Stafford trade and before the allegations of assault came out. At the time the expectation / scuttlebutt was 2 firsts and an established player would have been enough to get it done and that the 3 firsts the Texans apparently wanted was just a gently caress you to any team potentially interested / their attempt to set the market high to force Watson to come home. While I think a first, second, third and what's functionally a 2nd first rounder in Chase would be cheap for a player of Watson's calibre I don't think with the allegations its too far off the money. I still think that 2 firsts and change is probably enough to get it done, I just don't know how highly rated Chase is in the NFL zeitgeist. I know if I was him I wouldn't want to suit up for the commanders again if they're trying to send me to the loving Texans though - jesus.

I also find it interesting (if this offer is true) simply for the fact that its an NFL team with the stink of treating women extremely badly readily looking to trade for another terrible person and mortgage a huge chunk of their future to do it.

The no-trade clause is still the sticking point because Watson only wants to go to a contender and while the WFT is probably a playoff team with him under centre and they have some pieces they don't exactly jump off the page as having a stacked roster or dynamic coaching staff.

Lions got the second first for taking on Goff's contract.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 03:23

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 2, 2024 15:52

YOLOsubmarine: Oct 19, 2004; When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

Bird in a Blender posted:

If you�re giving up a couple of firsts plus a good player, you better be drat close to making the super bowl with an upgrade at QB. You really only have 2-3 years to get there before the lack of picks start catching up to you.

If you don�t have a good QB you�re lucky to even get 2-3 years of being a legitimate threat to win the Super Bowl. You basically need to put together an outstanding defense and have some novel offensive scheme that allows you to cover for your QBs shortcomings and both of those things tend to fall apart pretty quickly.

And if you trade for a young enough QB you�ve got plenty of time to record from a few lean draft years whereas the team that took your picks ends up with a good player in a position that probably has way less longevity and draft picks that are, statistically, likely to be disappointing.

gently caress them picks, in other words.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 03:27

Bird in a Blender: Nov 17, 2005; It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.

YOLOsubmarine posted:

If you don�t have a good QB you�re lucky to even get 2-3 years of being a legitimate threat to win the Super Bowl. You basically need to put together an outstanding defense and have some novel offensive scheme that allows you to cover for your QBs shortcomings and both of those things tend to fall apart pretty quickly.

And if you trade for a young enough QB you�ve got plenty of time to record from a few lean draft years whereas the team that took your picks ends up with a good player in a position that probably has way less longevity and draft picks that are, statistically, likely to be disappointing.

gently caress them picks, in other words.

That�s true if it�s a guarantee that you can re-sign that QB, which it�s not, or he doesn�t suffer another catastrophic injury that kills his playing ability. Just seems like a huge move to make if your goal is to take like 5-6 years to make the super bowl. There isn�t a ton of evidence about big moves like this one way or another though I guess.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 03:40

King Hong Kong: Nov 6, 2009; For we'll fight with a vim
that is dead sure to win.

What Super Bowl-winning team in recent memory does that post even describe? By the standard of the post, it doesn�t even include the Rams since Stafford isn�t exactly �young.�

In practice you are likely to get those 2-3 years if you trade for a good QB in part because the QB probably won�t be young.

Doesn�t that also contradict your argument that the Rams will be good post-Stafford because they have a good coach?

King Hong Kong fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Feb 21, 2022

# ? Feb 21, 2022 07:24

YOLOsubmarine: Oct 19, 2004; When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

King Hong Kong posted:

What Super Bowl-winning team in recent memory does that post even describe? By the standard of the post, it doesn�t even include the Rams since Stafford isn�t exactly �young.�

In practice you are likely to get those 2-3 years if you trade for a good QB in part because the QB probably won�t be young.

Doesn�t that also contradict your argument that the Rams will be good post-Stafford because they have a good coach?

This whole argument started because someone suggested that Chase Young and a first and a third a reasonable amount for Derek Carr, who is young. And the original post was about Watson, who is young.

It doesn�t describe any realistic situation because there is effectively no price at which you can acquire a young, good QB, which is the point. The idea that you would only give up that for Carr or Watson (minus the rape) if you thought they�d win you a superbowl in a 2-3 years is silly. Many teams would happily do that and they�d be right to.

The Rams will still be good without Stafford because they were good before him. They won�t be �immediately win a Super Bowl� good, but they�ll be in that range of teams that usually make the playoffs but aren�t Super Bowl favorites.

Basically, if you�ve got a good coach then spend whatever you have to to get a good QB.

YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Feb 21, 2022

# ? Feb 21, 2022 08:03

Cat Hassler: Feb 7, 2006; Slippery Tilde

Watson is either staying in Houston or going to a really lovely team that is also willing to roll the dice on him still being any good. Assuming he pays off his victims which he will

# ? Feb 21, 2022 08:36

syzpid: Aug 9, 2014

Cat Hassler posted:

Watson is either staying in Houston or going to a really lovely team that is also willing to roll the dice on him still being any good. Assuming he pays off his victims which he will

Watson has a no trade, he's not going to a lovely team.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 11:31

AAAAA! Real Muenster: Jul 12, 2008; My QB is also named Bort

YOLOsubmarine posted:

This whole argument started because someone suggested that Chase Young and a first and a third a reasonable amount for Derek Carr, who is young. And the original post was about Watson, who is young.

It doesn�t describe any realistic situation because there is effectively no price at which you can acquire a young, good QB, which is the point. The idea that you would only give up that for Carr or Watson (minus the rape) if you thought they�d win you a superbowl in a 2-3 years is silly. Many teams would happily do that and they�d be right to.

The Rams will still be good without Stafford because they were good before him. They won�t be �immediately win a Super Bowl� good, but they�ll be in that range of teams that usually make the playoffs but aren�t Super Bowl favorites.

Basically, if you�ve got a good coach then spend whatever you have to to get a good QB.

You know that Carr is 31 and has a chance of retiring to preach at any moment, right? He's not 23 like Chase Young.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 13:39

Mystic Stylez: Dec 19, 2009

evilweasel posted:

that’s an odd way to spell joe flacco

look at this clueless person

# ? Feb 21, 2022 14:10

Cavauro: Jan 9, 2008

Deshaun Watson is younger than Joe Burrow

# ? Feb 21, 2022 14:13

Mega64: May 23, 2008; I took the octopath less travelered,

And it made one-eighth the difference.

Joe Burrow has been in more AFCCG's than Deshaun Watson.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 15:05

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Cavauro posted:

Deshaun Watson is younger than Joe Burrow

This is untrue but it�s closer than you might think.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 15:33

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Remember when the Browns drafted a 28 year old Brandon Weeden lmao

# ? Feb 21, 2022 15:35

boop the snoot: Jun 3, 2016

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

Remember when the Browns drafted a 28 year old Brandon Weeden lmao

Chris Weinke was a pioneer.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 15:42

FizFashizzle: Mar 30, 2005

https://twitter.com/jjwatt/status/1495773369119420417?s=21

# ? Feb 21, 2022 16:23

YOLOsubmarine: Oct 19, 2004; When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:

You know that Carr is 31 and has a chance of retiring to preach at any moment, right? He's not 23 like Chase Young.

He�s 30 and that�s young and barring a random early retirement which any player could choose to do he�s probably got another 7 or 8 good seasons left at the most valuable position in football. Edge rushers don�t exactly age gracefully so I wouldn�t expect to get that much more use out of young.

The Rams had the best defensive player in football and one of the best in history for 7 years and didn�t win a Super Bowl until they traded for a QB. QBs matter way more than everyone else.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 16:52

wyoak: Feb 14, 2005; a glass case of emotion; Fallen Rib

Carr is a more charismatic Cousins

# ? Feb 21, 2022 17:08

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

I take no joy in saying that Carr is a worse Cousins.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 17:10

Sour Diesel: Jan 30, 2010

kirk is a rich man's fitz

# ? Feb 21, 2022 17:12

Cavauro: Jan 9, 2008

i don't care about qb squabbles but you actually age 1 year on your birthday

# ? Feb 21, 2022 17:13

Eifert Posting: Apr 1, 2007; Most of the time he catches it every time.; Grimey Drawer

I am extremely skeptical that Vegas will get anything they consider worth it for Carr. A team doesn't have to have an exceptional grade on their quarterback to keep him. If they value Carr higher than the other 31 franchises do they're not going to accept a trade they consider undervalued. I'll be shocked if more than three tenured quarterbacks relocate this offseason.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 17:15

YOLOsubmarine: Oct 19, 2004; When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

Sour Diesel posted:

kirk is a rich man's fitz

He is, sadly, the opposite. Cousins would never unleash the dragon like Fitz.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 17:32

King Hong Kong: Nov 6, 2009; For we'll fight with a vim
that is dead sure to win.

YOLOsubmarine posted:

He�s 30 and that�s young and barring a random early retirement which any player could choose to do he�s probably got another 7 or 8 good seasons left at the most valuable position in football. Edge rushers don�t exactly age gracefully so I wouldn�t expect to get that much more use out of young.

What teams are good enough for Carr to take to a Super Bowl that don�t already have a better or comparable QB or well positioned enough to be good enough in say 3 years (anything after that and the odds seem marginal)?

The latter is hard to say and the former includes maybe the 49ers, who already have a young QB they traded for to draft, and the Colts.

That seems like a marginal market even if the Raiders wanted to move on for whatever reason, which wouldn�t make a lot of sense for them.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 17:37

Grittybeard: Mar 29, 2010; Bad, very bad!

YOLOsubmarine posted:

He is, sadly, the opposite. Cousins would never unleash the dragon like Fitz.

The infuriating thing is it seems like he does now and then, just never, ever when it matters.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 17:41

YOLOsubmarine: Oct 19, 2004; When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

Grittybeard posted:

The infuriating thing is it seems like he does now and then, just never, ever when it matters.

quote:

Drilled every single day under the framework of evaluating every throw as a process, asking himself if each throw �was a good decision or a bad decision,� Cousins� quarterbacking style has become systematic and often risk-averse. He often characterizes bad decisions as those that put the ball in harm�s way.

After the Vikings� Week 6 win against Philadelphia in 2019, Cousins outlined his football philosophy. He said that at Michigan State, someone told him to ��Picture yourself playing the game like a CEO, like you�re in a three-piece suit.� That�s kind of how you have to play the game, you can�t be emotional.� Cousins added that it has been a core part of his approach from that point on.

Cousins has insisted that his road to success involves following his progressions, making his reads and taking what the defense gives him. In response to any offensive struggles, he can always fall back on this mindset when explaining his process.

In 2015, in his first year as a full-fledged starter, Cousins was asked why the Washington offense was doing such a poor job of converting third-and-longs. Cousins responded, �I think it�s very important to take what the defense gives you. Sometimes, it�s a completion of 2 or 3 yards that may end up moving the chains. Sometimes, it�s not being greedy. Other times, if they play aggressive and give you something open down the field, then you take it. But I think it�s all about the old adage of taking what the defense gives you. When you do that, usually, you have good success, or at least you avoid critical errors and it gives you a chance then to win.�

Throughout 2016 and 2017, he would repeat the mantra of taking what the defense gives him. In Minnesota, he beat the drum even more, telling reporters that he checked down to a throw over the middle in the two-minute drill because that�s what the defense was giving him � even though it forced the offense to drain valuable clock as he led a comeback attempt.

Even what appear to be his most aggressive plays are often broken down as either mechanical responses to the defense or as mistakes he made � despite their success.

This season�s Week 11 win over Green Bay offered an excellent example. On third-and-3 against an all-out blitz, Cousins threw a 23-yard, go-ahead touchdown to wideout Justin Jefferson. With so many defenders vacating coverage and little time to get rid of the ball, Cousins made the decision to take the touchdown instead of the first down. It seemed like an interesting counterpoint to his normally robotic style of play.

Except, not really.

Cousins explained after the game that against Cover-0 � man coverage across the board with no deep safeties, a blitz look � he�s determined to throw to his outside receivers because there�s little chance of an outside defender playing tricks. An outside receiver on an aggressive blitz is almost always seeing simple man-to-man coverage.

�It�s pretty systematic because of the all-out blitz,� he explained after the game. �It kind of dictates where you go with the football because you need a route that you feel good about against Cover-0. � I just felt like that was my best opportunity, whether it�s fourth-and-1, fourth-and-10, that was probably my best opportunity versus Cover-0 with the concept we had.�

All right then. But on the last drive, needing a field goal to win, Cousins threaded an impossible needle to land the ball in wide receiver Adam Thielen�s hands and get into field goal range. With Rasul Douglas watching and waiting to make a pick, that certainly seemed to be more of an �intuitive� throw.

And, to Cousins, that was a problem. He should have, he said after the game, thrown it to Tyler Conklin instead for a small gain.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 17:51

boop the snoot: Jun 3, 2016

Since he is an anti-vaxxer, it�s ironic that his philosophy is to take what the defense gives him.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 18:00

Freaquency: May 10, 2007; "Yes I can hear you, I don't have ear cancer!"

Cavauro posted:

i don't care about qb squabbles but you actually age 1 year on your birthday

Big if true

# ? Feb 21, 2022 18:17

Henrik Zetterberg: Dec 7, 2007

Booooo

https://twitter.com/cjgolson/status/1495459736485089287?s=21

# ? Feb 21, 2022 18:19

EmbryoSteve: Dec 18, 2004; Taste~The~Rainbow

My blood sugar is gon' be like

~^^^^*WHOA*^^^^~

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Booooo

https://twitter.com/cjgolson/status/1495459736485089287?s=21

still loling at "Commanders" everytime i see it

# ? Feb 21, 2022 18:22

Sour Diesel: Jan 30, 2010

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Booooo

https://twitter.com/cjgolson/status/1495459736485089287?s=21

this guy is one of those mentally ill ppl who pretend to be a NFL insider

# ? Feb 21, 2022 18:27

Forrest on Fire: Nov 23, 2012

Sour Diesel beat me to it but lol what's Love worth now? Rosen at draft day got a 2nd, and looked worse, but are teams really going to shell top draft capital for someone who hasn't shown much?

*Checks top QBs in the draft* they're gonna get a first for him aren't they

# ? Feb 21, 2022 18:41

Ornery and Hornery: Oct 22, 2020

King Hong Kong posted:

What teams are good enough for Carr to take to a Super Bowl that don�t already have a better or comparable QB or well positioned enough to be good enough in say 3 years (anything after that and the odds seem marginal)?

The latter is hard to say and the former includes maybe the 49ers, who already have a young QB they traded for to draft, and the Colts.

That seems like a marginal market even if the Raiders wanted to move on for whatever reason, which wouldn�t make a lot of sense for them.

Niners
Colts
Dolphins
Patriots
Broncos
Eagles
Steelers
Commanders(?)
Buccaneers
Saints(?)

All those teams, with Carr, would range somewhere between �likely make playoffs then need to get hot� to �strong contender�

# ? Feb 21, 2022 18:41

Spoeank: Jul 16, 2003; That's a nice set of 11 dynasty points there, it would be a shame if 3 rings were to happen with it

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Booooo

https://twitter.com/cjgolson/status/1495459736485089287?s=21

Golson literally just makes things up.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 18:44

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Shameful. He's giving Moss-atars a bad name.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 18:51

DariusLikewise: Oct 4, 2008; You wore that on Halloween?

Why would the Falcons trade for Love

# ? Feb 21, 2022 18:54

sharknado slashfic: Jun 24, 2011

EmbryoSteve posted:

still loling at "Commanders" everytime i see it

I love living near DC, their fans are miserable, even the ones who supported changing the name

# ? Feb 21, 2022 19:02

Pain of Mind: Jul 10, 2004; You are receiving this broadcast as a dream...We are transmitting from the year one nine... nine nine ...You are receiving this broadcast in order t

I really don't see Carr being that much better than someone like Garoppolo or Wentz.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 19:05

Ches Neckbeard: Dec 3, 2005; You're all garbage, back up the truck BACK IT UP!

Forrest on Fire posted:

Sour Diesel beat me to it but lol what's Love worth now? Rosen at draft day got a 2nd, and looked worse, but are teams really going to shell top draft capital for someone who hasn't shown much?

*Checks top QBs in the draft* they're gonna get a first for him aren't they

Probably nets a day 2 pick because 1st round qb behind Rodgers and coached by Lefluer

# ? Feb 21, 2022 19:06

Ornery and Hornery: Oct 22, 2020

Pain of Mind posted:

I really don't see Carr being that much better than someone like Garoppolo or Wentz.

*gif of solid snake quickly turning around to the sound of !!!*

# ? Feb 21, 2022 19:07

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 2, 2024 15:52

Ornery and Hornery: Oct 22, 2020

DariusLikewise posted:

Why would the Falcons trade for Love

Any team, even a team with a good qb, would be well served by upgrading to the Love Train.

He put up an indomitable 58% completion rate (with a steady two tds to three picks) on his way to a convincing 0-1-0 record.

# ? Feb 21, 2022 19:09

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Football Funhouse > NFL N/V Offseason: Sorry folks, I counted him out

«‹›428 »