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X-2's structure was really bad. Hopping around from place to place via Skyship menu just doesn't feel all that good. And the way the game was designed felt like it was made to sell guides to completionists.
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Feb 22, 2022 12:58
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Gaius Marius posted:X-2's structure was really bad. Hopping around from place to place via Skyship menu just doesn't feel all that good. And the way the game was designed felt like it was made to sell guides to completionists. Yoy want 100% completion? Guess what; you forgot to talk to one guy enough times to get all his dialogue and now it's changed (or they're no longer accessible) after the plot's advanced so too bad, gently caress you, and start over next playthrough.
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Feb 22, 2022 13:21
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Getting 100% is only a challenge if you're trying to do it in one shot. It's very clearly designed with the mindset that players are going to do NG+ at least once, to find stuff they missed or skipped, and make different choices. 100% is easy peasy to obtain that way, since your completion percentage carries over to NG+.
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Feb 22, 2022 13:28
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Yoy want 100% completion? Guess what; you forgot to talk to one guy enough times to get all his dialogue and now it's changed (or they're no longer accessible) after the plot's advanced so too bad, gently caress you, and start over next playthrough. That's only if you care about getting 100% in one playthrough, which no one should because it's obviously not designed for it while still technically being possible.
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Feb 22, 2022 14:10
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FFX-2 was a social experiment to see if players would make the game pointlessly harder for themselves and get a worse ending just to see a number go up to 100%.
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Feb 22, 2022 14:12
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pentyne posted:Final Fantasy X-2 It's this 
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Feb 22, 2022 14:46
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FFX-2 is a joy except for the fact it's a game based around doing side quests. I hate sidequests. Give me a robust narrative, not a million optional things to do that make me forget what I'm doing in the first place. I'd still pay it again though.
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Feb 22, 2022 14:54
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Okay, I need to talk to y'all about something. What the gently caress is the deal with MP systems in JRPGers that aren't replenished between battles? What is the point of it? Besides making me backtrack and waste my time, that is.
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Feb 22, 2022 14:55
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Jack Trades posted:Okay, I need to talk to y'all about something. Developers decided resource management is a core difficulty mechanic. I too prefer games that refill you so battle can be front and center and every single one can be a banger. More games should do it IMO.
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Feb 22, 2022 14:56
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Yoy want 100% completion? Guess what; you forgot to talk to one guy enough times to get all his dialogue and now it's changed (or they're no longer accessible) after the plot's advanced so too bad, gently caress you, and start over next playthrough. What? New game+ pulls your completion into the next save. Unless you desperately want 100% in one run, literally doing one run as New Yevon and the next as Youth League, or the other way around, will always get you to 100%, afaik even if you didn't do sidequests I dunno why people made this so much harder on themselves, playing the game through in NG+ also owns because you get all your dress spheres and accessories, so you can completely break the game in a number of fun and exciting ways. My personal favorite is putting everyone as Lady Luck with auto crits and jacking everyone's strength sky high so they toss cards for 9999 damage from the jump. Plus tons of gil and oodles of experience, you don't even need healing because you can damage race everything TurnipFritter posted:It's this 
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Feb 22, 2022 14:57
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Bring back Vancian Magic like FF3, dammit.
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Feb 22, 2022 14:58
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Levantine posted:Developers decided resource management is a core difficulty mechanic. What I don't understand is, it's not actually a difficulty thing most of the time. I played a bunch of JRPGers and I can't think of any one where MP being a limited resources actually made the game more difficult. Because at least all of the games I've played and remember, you can just avoid all the encounters, once you run out of resources, and backtrack to refill them. It doesn't make you think about resource conservation, it just adds more tedium.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:03
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Back in ye olden times something like “casting a fireball” was seen as truly special and remarkable so you could only do it a couple times a dungeon, lest you perish from the awesomeness.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:10
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Jack Trades posted:What I don't understand is, it's not actually a difficulty thing most of the time. I played a bunch of JRPGers and I can't think of any one where MP being a limited resources actually made the game more difficult. I mean, I can think of plenty really. Persona games for one where you're on a time management system as well. You can't just run from every fight and beat a boss in many cases. I think the original idea was if you can't get through an area without expending your resources you're not ready to beat it. So it acts as a bit of a level gate as well. It is tedious, I agree which is why I prefer games that push their difficulty onto the battles themselves.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:10
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Levantine posted:FFX-2 is a joy except for the fact it's a game based around doing side quests. I hate sidequests. Give me a robust narrative, not a million optional things to do that make me forget what I'm doing in the first place. The side quests give you a robust narrative about the changing lives of the people of Spira through a series of thematically and dramatically link vignettes that bump into and out of relevance and all reinforce the central themes of not just moving on from a painful past but mending the wounds the trauma created.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:11
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Elvis_Maximus posted:What? New game+ pulls your completion into the next save. Unless you desperately want 100% in one run, literally doing one run as New Yevon and the next as Youth League, or the other way around, will always get you to 100%, afaik even if you didn't do sidequests Some people don't want to play through it multiple times or want to unlock everything possible for a 2nd playthrough. IMO the game doesn't respect the player's time and if they wanted the player to get additional stuff through multiple playthroughs, they should have just kept it like that instead of giving the choice to get things this playthrough but making players do tedious things or things that can easily make them lose out on %. It's basically just FOMO. Even if that extra tedious stuff doesn't actually matter, it's still something that eats away at people because of the FOMO and feeling of the game disrespecting the player's time.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:14
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FirstAidKite posted:Some people don't want to play through it multiple times or want to unlock everything possible for a 2nd playthrough. IMO the game doesn't respect the player's time and if they wanted the player to get additional stuff through multiple playthroughs, they should have just kept it like that instead of giving the choice to get things this playthrough but making players do tedious things or things that can easily make them lose out on %. It's basically just FOMO. Even if that extra tedious stuff doesn't actually matter, it's still something that eats away at people because of the FOMO and feeling of the game disrespecting the player's time. It's not FOMO you literally cannot miss out if you eventually want to get it. These are all just your own brain goblins
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Feb 22, 2022 15:16
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:These are all just your own brain goblins That's what FOMO is, yes. It doesn't matter that you can get it eventually just through regular play. The idea behind it is still "do things perfectly or else you have to play through the whole game again" and that's how it affects people.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:20
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FirstAidKite posted:Some people don't want to play through it multiple times or want to unlock everything possible for a 2nd playthrough. IMO the game doesn't respect the player's time and if they wanted the player to get additional stuff through multiple playthroughs, they should have just kept it like that instead of giving the choice to get things this playthrough but making players do tedious things or things that can easily make them lose out on %. It's basically just FOMO. Even if that extra tedious stuff doesn't actually matter, it's still something that eats away at people because of the FOMO and feeling of the game disrespecting the player's time. I guess that makes sense. Though, I think getting both sides of the story from each organization actually adds to the overall plot. I never got the feeling the game didn't respect my time though, it's just that the game is designed so that you can miss out on a few things and then discover them on a subsequent play through. I guess it's kinda like a visual novel sorta setup where you almost certainly won't see everything in your first play through, so you do it multiple times to get the "true ending" or whatever? The only really tedious side quest I remember is the tower dungeon with the super bosses, and that's mostly because the later ones kinda require gimmicks to beat. Though the infinite gunner shooting trick works on I think all of the bosses except the final one (it's incredibly tedious however). Ultimately though I still think that the 100% ending is actually less interesting then the merely good ending. Plus then the 100% ending leads into the audio drama CD which, while funny, is uh.. not very good
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Feb 22, 2022 15:22
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Is that the one where Tidus gets blown up by a blitzball IED.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:23
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Jack Trades posted:What I don't understand is, it's not actually a difficulty thing most of the time. I played a bunch of JRPGers and I can't think of any one where MP being a limited resources actually made the game more difficult. Etrian Odyssey is a pretty good example of a series that doesn’t work the same way unless it has MP as a finite resource to manage. I mean, it’s obviously influenced by old PC games where it also mattered, but still.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:25
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Elvis_Maximus posted:I never got the feeling the game didn't respect my time though What came to mind when I said that was mainly the whole calm lands quest and also having to listen to Maechen ramble on and on.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:25
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exquisite tea posted:Is that the one where Tidus gets blown up by a blitzball IED. Yeah, confusing a bomb for a blitzball, he gives it a powerful kick and then explodes and dies. It's amazing but uh.. like.. not the greatest story FFX-2 is actually a super short game if you just bee-line the plot iirc. Like on NG+ you can probably legit complete the main route in like less than 10 hours super easily, probably even less than 5 without much trouble. So I never really felt like subsequent runs were all that much of a burden FirstAidKite posted:What came to mind when I said that was mainly the whole calm lands quest and also having to listen to Maechen ramble on and on. I think you can just skip all of the Maechen dialogue by telling him to shut up or not talking to him tho. I don't really remember calm lands taking much time at all, unless you're going to grind out the minigame stuff every run I guess. Though I think you have to do the teleporter maze thing everytime which is a little annoying?
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Feb 22, 2022 15:27
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exquisite tea posted:Is that the one where Tidus gets blown up by a blitzball IED. Yeah Although I like the idea of Tidus and Yuna having a rocky relationship past the romance part.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:27
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FirstAidKite posted:What came to mind when I said that was mainly the whole calm lands quest and also having to listen to Maechen ramble on and on. Maechen rules. I could listen to Dwight Schultz ramble for hours any day.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:28
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Elvis_Maximus posted:I think you can just skip all of the Maechen dialogue by telling him to shut up or not talking to him tho. I don't really remember calm lands taking much time at all, unless you're going to grind out the minigame stuff every run I guess. Though I think you have to do the teleporter maze thing everytime which is a little annoying? Idk if it was changed for later releases but you lose out on % completion if you interrupt Maechen. The Calm Lands thing is the advertising quest where you have to go talk to people all around Spira and using the right response to each npc and then later in the game it's like "remember that thing you did? Go do it again."
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Feb 22, 2022 15:32
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FirstAidKite posted:That's what FOMO is, yes. Except that's just a you problem not a failure of its design. Also that's not fomo. Being able to actually miss out is a core part of the fear of missing out.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:35
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no it isn't. fears aren't logical like that. humans aren't logical like that.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:40
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Except that's just a you problem not a failure of its design. Also that's not fomo. Being able to actually miss out is a core part of the fear of missing out. FOMO doesn't have to be something permanently missable to still trigger the feeling. Even in situations where by all means it's not a rational response, it's still there. You can get FOMO from something that you can get eventually if you put more time in.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:42
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FirstAidKite posted:Idk if it was changed for later releases but you lose out on % completion if you interrupt Maechen. The Calm Lands thing is the advertising quest where you have to go talk to people all around Spira and using the right response to each npc and then later in the game it's like "remember that thing you did? Go do it again." Well yeah, but you also don't have to do that on a subsequent playthrough. Plus the Maechen stuff is some good backstory with a voice actor doing a great job so like, that doesn't strike me as wasting my time? The calm lands is just a fun game long scavenger hunt thing that you don't have to do again, and plus it's literally worth 0.8% if you do the whole thing. Also you only have to talk to everyone once iirc, the only other thing in chapter 5 in Calm Lands is the mystery chocobo dungeon which come to think of it I don't think I've ever done. Unless you're talking about the marriage subquest that also involves talking to everyone, but that one isn't actually necessary for 100% at all. I actually own the guide since it's got a lot of cool art and stuff, so I double checked. You can just.. not do it and then do the other route and you won't miss out on anything at all (aside from a couple cutscenes). I totally get if it's a brain thing along the lines of FOMO but it definitely sounds like people are inflicting it on themselves in that regard
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Feb 22, 2022 15:43
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Elvis_Maximus posted:
Yes that's my point.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:45
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Draga posted:Maechen rules. I could listen to Dwight Schultz ramble for hours any day. The return of Maechen and all the dialogue boxes begging him to stop as he talks to you is one of X-2's greatest features. It's also a pretty awesome troll on the completionists, not gonna lie.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:46
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Jack Trades posted:What I don't understand is, it's not actually a difficulty thing most of the time. I played a bunch of JRPGers and I can't think of any one where MP being a limited resources actually made the game more difficult. It's not meant to be the main thrust of a game's challenge, it's just an attrition mechanic that modifies other spinning plates The best example is Persona in which SP attrition integrates with time management challenges in addition to moment-to-moment battle decisions
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Feb 22, 2022 15:47
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drat.. now that I'm reviewing the quest list there's some real good ones like Rin's scooby doo mystery quest on the highroad. It's so great how it ties in a bunch of the side quests before it in terms of who you can find responsible, whether you completed them successfully and what you did/examined during them All this talk about X and X-2 is making me wanna replay them both, but I've already got so many games I'm playing through. It's an eternal struggle
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Feb 22, 2022 15:56
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Jack Trades posted:What I don't understand is, it's not actually a difficulty thing most of the time. I played a bunch of JRPGers and I can't think of any one where MP being a limited resources actually made the game more difficult. it works best in contexts where the dungeon is explicitly designed as a resource management check between whatever checkpoints the game provides. this concept is typically best exemplified in dungeon crawlers, and SMT games pull a lot of their design ethos from them even after mostly going third person.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:57
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CYBEReris posted:it works best in contexts where the dungeon is explicitly designed as a resource management check between whatever checkpoints the game provides. this concept is typically best exemplified in dungeon crawlers, and SMT games pull a lot of their design ethos from them even after mostly going third person. I brought up this topic because I'm playing an SMT game for the first time right now and the MP system is literally nothing but a waste of time. The game gives me absolutely no reason to ever think about conserving MP and I'm even playing it on the second highest difficulty.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:08
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Skies of Arcadia Legends is one of the few games where I ever ran into trouble with MP and that was because I was in a dungeon that I couldn't leave to go back to town and completing it would lock me into a battle that I wasn't equipped to win beyond lucking through it and healing. That's how I found out that Skies of Arcadia even has MP in the first place. Up until that point I had thought it was solely SP.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:14
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Jack Trades posted:I brought up this topic because I'm playing an SMT game for the first time right now and the MP system is literally nothing but a waste of time. Which SMT game are you playing? MP conservation is a petty big deal in Nocturne, at least early to mid game I'd say. But you're def not playing that if you have that many difficulty choices. I'm guessing SMTIV or V? V is a weird game and totally different from the others in how it handles MP.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:18
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Jack Trades posted:I brought up this topic because I'm playing an SMT game for the first time right now and the MP system is literally nothing but a waste of time. SMTV specifically? Yeah, the fact that you get fast travel and cheap healing at any fast travel point makes attrition a lot harder, though it's possible to still burn through your MP in longer fights as you get more powerful skills, and later map design makes running back to the heal point every time you're getting low on mp less desirable.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:18
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NikkolasKing posted:Which SMT game are you playing? I'm playing SMT4A and the only problems I had with MP were "The nearest healing point is too far and too annoying to get to so I'll just pop some MP items or fuse my mons instead." I'm guessing earlier games were stricter about it?
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Feb 22, 2022 16:20
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