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Warmachine posted:That still secures Re:Rise a top-5 billing. Lessee... In no particular order:G, Turn A, IBO, War in the Pocket, and 0079 all exist, so Re: Rise, while good, isn't top five material.
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Feb 23, 2022 21:46
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chiasaur11 posted:Lessee... And if we are counting ReRise then I still think original BF was better.
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Feb 23, 2022 22:09
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Finally watched Char’s Counterattack. I oddly have more opinions about it than I did with ZZ. Char’s characterization here seems consistent with 0079, but he seemed to have grown into an almost decent person in Zeta. He’s confirmed to be incredibly manipulative so I guess that was all a front? Quess’s arc happens way too fast and just makes her seem severely mentally ill. There’s just not enough time in a movie this length to do what I think they were trying to do with her. Hathaway knew Quess for like half a day and was so obsessed with her that he stole a mobile suit to try and save her and was so mentally broken from her death (while she tried to kill him) that he murdered Chan? RIP Astonaige I guess someone had to die from a random bullet My headcanon is that Char used some newtype charisma ability to manipulate Quess, and Quess used that same thing on Hathaway and Gyunei. It’s the only explanation for these weird immediate obsessions. The art and animation were fantastic, some of the best I’ve seen. I’ll watch it again and then watch Hathaway.
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Feb 23, 2022 22:15
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hathaways actions are perfectly reasonable for a 15 year old
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Feb 23, 2022 22:21
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PringleCreamEgg posted:
This is no dog on you in particular but it kind of always weirded me out that so many people took char’s turn in Zeta for face value. He’s still a newtype supremacist at the end of the day, to the point that in one episode he muses about the possibility of using mass cyber newtypification to force newtypism on humanity at large, and at no point does he abandon the idea that humanity needs to vacate planet earth. He only seems friendlier because he’s explicitly on the protagonists side, and even then he’s blatantly loving around doing underhanded poo poo.
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Feb 23, 2022 22:27
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:This is no dog on you in particular but it kind of always weirded me out that so many people took char’s turn in Zeta for face value. He’s still a newtype supremacist at the end of the day, to the point that in one episode he muses about the possibility of using mass cyber newtypification to force newtypism on humanity at large, and at no point does he abandon the idea that humanity needs to vacate planet earth. He only seems friendlier because he’s explicitly on the protagonists side, and even then he’s blatantly loving around doing underhanded poo poo. I think it needs to be noted that Quattro was a legitimate face turn, it's just that once Zeta concludes Char is back, Quattro and the face turn are dead. He was always a heel he just got to get a good babyface run in during the conflict in Zeta. It was never going to last. He's sincere, but that's cause he's trying the Amuro way, it fails for him (cause he's a poo poo mentor) and he goes back to being Char once Kamille gets brain nuked. It's way weirder that he disappears for all of ZZ, same with Amuro, but hey ZZ is doing it's own thing. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Feb 23, 2022 |
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Feb 23, 2022 22:34
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Well that's partially just production problems
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Feb 23, 2022 22:37
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Wasn't Char supposed to be in the back half of ZZ? Like I assume most of Glemy's schemes would have been Char's schemes and Glemy would have played a role comparable to Gyunei.
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Feb 23, 2022 23:10
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It's okay, ZZ is such a black hole for the Amuro Char rivalry that there's probably fifteen billion side mangas and one shots talking about how they were too busy chasing each other or fighting former Titans and Moon Moon weirdos that they weren't able to get involved in shenanigans that clearly aren't an anime.
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Feb 23, 2022 23:19
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I think it needs to be noted that Quattro was the face turn, it's just that once Char is back Quattro and the face turn are dead. He was always a heel he just got to get a good babyface run in during the conflict in Zeta. It was never going to last. He's sincere, but that's cause he's trying the Amuro way, it fails and he goes back to being Char once Kamille gets brain nuked. Char disappearing is kind of weird, but he ends Zeta missing presumed dead, so there's an explanation. Amuro, meanwhile, is just offscreen doing vague other things, which looks even more awkward because ZZ makes Zeta look like Legend of Galactic Heroes in terms of detailed depiction of the conduct of war. When everything that matters is on screen, having the greatest pilot to exist offscreen feels much more awkward than it would otherwise. (There's not even much manga covering ZZ's time period.) Also, it's obvious that, after Char put his hope into the young, he saw Beecha and just gave up on humanity.
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Feb 23, 2022 23:31
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Is the Gundam Evolve short with Amuro in a Zeta set during Zeta or ZZ? I don’t remember if he was fighting a Titan or an Axis mobile armor.
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Feb 24, 2022 00:29
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Ethiser posted:Is the Gundam Evolve short with Amuro in a Zeta set during Zeta or ZZ? I don’t remember if he was fighting a Titan or an Axis mobile armor. ZZ. It also implies the protagonist of the short is using a machine designed for Johnny Ridden because he's too old type to use the Zeta with a biosensor.
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Feb 24, 2022 00:36
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Is there a reason that Seed/Destiny are the only series that doesn't have a non-collectors edition version of their blu-ray? Rightstuf has a pretty uniform consistency with pricing and content with the other series then BAM $300 Seed boxes, so it's weird. I read they're making (made?)a new Seed dub, so I don't know, is it a licensing thing?
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Feb 24, 2022 13:39
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:This is no dog on you in particular but it kind of always weirded me out that so many people took char’s turn in Zeta for face value. He’s still a newtype supremacist at the end of the day, to the point that in one episode he muses about the possibility of using mass cyber newtypification to force newtypism on humanity at large, and at no point does he abandon the idea that humanity needs to vacate planet earth. He only seems friendlier because he’s explicitly on the protagonists side, and even then he’s blatantly loving around doing underhanded poo poo. He contemplates mass cyber Newtypism because he thinks it might be the only way to save Earth, and not for it's own sake as a form of Newtype supremacism. Which would be weird anyway, because I don't think anyone in UC truly equates cyber Newtypes with normal, actual natural Newtypes; even in that scene, Kamille says that using science to enhance people will mean they're not really Newtypes and Char agrees with him. Char in Zeta Gundam is very much trying to be a better person, and whatever his struggles with it, he ends the show still trying to be; it's only in light of his actions in Char's Counterattack that you can say with any real certainty that his actions in Zeta Gundam shouldn't be taken at face value. And even then, you basically have to assume that he's pretending regardless of how much danger it puts him in, or what opportunities it costs him. Nessus posted:Wasn't Char supposed to be in the back half of ZZ? Like I assume most of Glemy's schemes would have been Char's schemes and Glemy would have played a role comparable to Gyunei. The original plan was to have Char in the back half of ZZ Gundam, yes. His role would be somewhat similar to Glemy, in the one draft/plan we have of what that'd look like, but also be quite different. Char wouldn't form a rebellion and then cause Neo Zeon to tear itself apart, before AEUG decapitates the remnant; Char would assassinate Haman before taking over Neo Zeon, then assassinate the heads of the Federation personally and specifically (rather than just throwing a rock at Earth, and not giving a poo poo who dies while the heads are already noted to have fled like in Char's Counterattack), before Judau confronts him. Which would then end with Judau using his Newtype powers as the fist, true Newtype (actually called Newtype2 in the plan), to speak to everyone on Earth and convince them to finally leave Earth and live in the colonies. With him ending the show moving to Mars, to help colonize that. Here's a pastebin I made up a few years ago, after someone (I'm not sure who anymore; and can't find the posts about it on a quick search) translated the information here in ADTRW when I posted it. There's been a bit more information on it posted over the years on /m/ too, including a few screencaps of the relevant pages from the data books that include that information, but I'd have to go looking for it because I never saved it or updated the Pastebin with the newer information I'd come across. Still, it's a pretty different show and relies on Char being a different person in that draft of ZZ Gundam to who he is in Char's Counterattack. Which is why I can't really understand when people go "NO! Char was always bad in Zeta, and he was always going to turn out the way he did; you just missed the clues!"; cause, no, he wasn't. He was originally intended to turn back into an antagonist, yes, but a very different antagonist who was more of an anti-hero if anything; killing some very specific people the story sets up as bad anyway, and for a good reason. As opposed to the general genocide he attempts in what we got.
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Feb 24, 2022 14:20
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Kamille dunks on Char way too much for me to believe the show wants me to think he’s some super secret bad guy whose manipulating everything for his own interests.
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Feb 24, 2022 14:38
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My take on Char and Quattro was helpfully formed by discussions I had way back when I first watched Zeta. I really liked Quattro as a character. Until this scene   The "Ever!" for emphasis just makes it even more galling to me as somebody who really felt for Garma. But talks I had at the time pointed out the significance of Char's final scene (or near final scene) being on a stage. "Quattro" has never betrayed anybody, because he's not "Char." There's a video game where the villain wears multiple faces and even when he's revealed to be the villain, he doesn't show his true self. The maniacal laughing and taunting isn't any more him than the joking slacker. That's kind of my take on Char - or rather, Casval. Quattro and Char are both just masks he's putting on, personas he's adopting, because maybe there is no "real self" at all. He's lost himself due to a lifetime of living lies. That's why, even as he genuinely tried to do good in Zeta, he couldn't quite understand Reccoa or the others. Just the interpretation I favor. To the extent to which he was able, he tried to be a good guy in Zeta but since it was all just a front like everything he does, he couldn't quite commit to it. Importantly, this means his CCA Self is just as much of a facade. Just going through the motions, being what he thinks others think he should be.
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Feb 24, 2022 14:54
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I don't think you need to believe Char is running some master of deception shenanigans to make the jump from Zeta to CCA. Throughout every one of his appearances, from the OYW to Zeta to CCA, Char is an indecisive dude who continually changes his priorities and goals, to the point where sometimes his goals directly conflict with each other. The picture of Char we get in the OYW is of a man who is, paradoxically, simultaneously driven to the point of obsession and also easily distracted and frustrated. He's made it his life mission to murder the Zabis, he manages to kill one, then gets shuffled off to the back end of nowhere on everyone's shitlist until luck puts him back on track, and at that point he's increasingly distracted from his self-imposed mission by his attraction to Lalah and his desire to beat the Gundam(and Amuro, once he learns who Amuro is). Gihren, Dozle, and Degwin basically die by happenstance while Char is busy playing around with his new rivalry/vendetta, and he pretty much accidentally happens to be in place to bazooka Kycilia's head off. Char in Zeta's new life path is to be a low level officer in AEUG who's fighting for a cause he considers right but he also wants absolutely no responsibility for steering that cause. He's pulling his OYW "I'm just a soldier" act again and this leads to another paradox - he wants AEUG to succeed but he's not willing to invest himself in helping it do so(until Dakar, where he's shocked into it by Blex's death and the realization that the whole cause is going to collapse if he doesn't). He takes over, poo poo goes bad, he ditches - Char has never been a "go down with the ship" guy, ever. He wasn't willing to die to kill the Zabis, he happily rode the Zeong head ejection pod out of there, and he peaces out when AEUG self destructs taking out the Titans. He lies low for a while because Haman's Neo Zeon is in the ascendancy and Haman hates his loving guts and wants him dead. AEUG is too broken to protect him and the Federation wouldn't bother. Once Haman is safely dead, he emerges and sweeps all the Neo Zeon remnants into his dustbin(because they all worship the idea behind the Red Comet, especially when it's attached to a Deikun). He decides that the best way to achieve the change he fought for in Zeta is forced migration via rock drop, and formulates a plan to make it happen. On the way he realizes that Amuro will 100% try to stop him, and he figures "hey we never did resolve that fight from way back when" and gets distracted, again, like he consistently does. He figures "well, while i'm doing this i might as well settle that particular question once and for all" - this sounds really stupid of him, but to his credit even with Amuro breaking his rear end to pieces the Axis Drop still would have completely succeeded and given Char the W in the end if not for a literal miracle flying out of Amuro's rear end. None of this even relies on the fanfic explanation that Char was mad about what happened to Kamille(which I like the idea behind but there's absolutely no support for it in the movie).
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Feb 24, 2022 15:05
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NikkolasKing posted:My take on Char and Quattro was helpfully formed by discussions I had way back when I first watched Zeta. The statement is wholly consistent with what Char has done up to that point: he's never betrayed anyone in his life because he's never actually been on anyone's side except his own. He owes no allegiance to anyone except himself. Every time he's worked with someone else it's been purely in the name of advancing his agenda and his goals. He was a double-agent inside the Zeon military, and the AEUG's goals happened to line up with his.
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Feb 24, 2022 15:11
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Kanos posted:Char decides that the best way to achieve the change he fought for in Zeta is forced migration via rock drop, and formulates a plan to make it happen Honestly, I don't even think he wants to force migration, because his plan as is is a really stupid way of forcing migration since there is basically no way for the most people to actually migrate under those circumstances. The vast majority on Earth will simply die, and while the result will be the same (i.e. everyone will be living in space), it'll be by a different means, because everyone left is in space and not because many people moved there. I think Char in the film is just angry at Earthnoids, and wants to kill them. Any assertion otherwise (to Quess, for instance) seems to just be more lies. He tells Amuro at the start of the film that he wants to punish Earthnoids for being selfish, and later Amuro says that Char has grown to hate Earthnoids despite fighting alongside them. I think Tomino just wanted to set up a film where Char is somewhat different for narrative and thematic reasons, regardless of continuity and not based on anything to do with AEUG, Kamille etc. You can make a generally coherent narrative out of Char in 0079, Zeta and CCA, but I think that's just a result of Tomino being a generally decent writer, rather than the actual intention as such. tsob fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Feb 24, 2022 |
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Feb 24, 2022 15:17
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The vast majority of people on Earth will die immediately and the ones who somehow manage to survive will have to leave, be rescued, or perish. In addition, and perhaps most importantly, nobody in space who would want to will be able to move onto the now vacated Earth because it'll be a hosed wasteland. The end result will still be "everyone now lives in space". When your plan is "drop an extinction level event on the planet", it's kind of understood that most of the people on said planet are going to die in the process. It's not a sternly worded eviction letter, it's getting someone to move out of a house by ramming a truck full of TNT into the side of it.
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Feb 24, 2022 15:37
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I just watched Hathaway and it was unbelievably good. What the gently caress. The first half was better than the second half but the whole thing was solid. I always love me some ‘from the ground’ giant robot fights.
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Feb 24, 2022 17:04
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Yeah the second half was a bit of a letdown because it introduces a bunch more characters and then the story just kinda stops without concluding. It'll be better once the other two films release but it feels incomplete.
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Feb 24, 2022 17:10
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I think Char just has a huge amount of difficulty seeing past his own short-term gratification. He never seems to imagine what will happen after he gets what he wants out of something. Also, what he wants tends to change rapidly and often contradicts with itself, because the man is a mess. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Feb 24, 2022 |
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Feb 24, 2022 17:49
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Yinlock posted:I think Char just has a huge amount of difficulty seeing past his own short-term gratification. He never seems to imagine what will happen after he gets what he wants out of something. Yep, that's about where I've landed. When I think of Char I think of the dude in the diner from Unicorn who suggested that maybe he was just a guy who never learned to like people. As trite as it sounds, that feels like cuts to the heart of things. Char manipulates and deceives not because he's some grand puppetmaster but because he's just not a very good person and doing stuff like that is just how he's chosen/learned to engage with the rest of the world. Maybe it was his circumstances that lead him to that point, maybe there was just something wrong with him, maybe it's a little of both columns, and maybe he was honestly trying to improve in Zeta, but ultimately he was just a guy who didn't really like people and ultimately did bad things. NikkolasKing posted:There's a video game where the villain wears multiple faces and even when he's revealed to be the villain, he doesn't show his true self. That's Ace Attorney 5 you're talking about, right? Because if so that's an intriguing comparison to Char I'd never thought of.
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Feb 24, 2022 20:09
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Omnicrom posted:That's Ace Attorney 5 you're talking about, right? Because if so that's an intriguing comparison to Char I'd never thought of. Afraid not. I was referring to Persona 4. Adachi plays a slacker buffoon but even when you find him out and he goes into Supervillain Mode, he's still just acting. He, like Char, strikes me as somebody who really doesn't know himself. They feel entitled to certain things and use people to obtain what is "rightfully theirs" while denying any responsibility for their own failures. They just slip on a new and different mask to avoid this blame and to blot out that hollowness that comes from not knowing who you really are. I know it's not the best comparison. Their motives are pretty different for one thing. But it just struck me as I was writing about Casval switching from MSG Char to Zeta Quattro and finally to CCA Char, all very different individuals in terms of their actions. But there is no contradiction because these aren't the same person in his mind, just masks he wears.
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Feb 24, 2022 20:41
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Feb 24, 2022 20:58
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tsob posted:I don't think you need anything of Build Divers to understand the show, because it explains everything relevant to the audience if you haven't seen it. Which is par for the course with Gundam sequels, frankly. Like, I wouldn't ever recommend it, but I do think someone could watch Char's Counterattack as their entry into UC, without ever seeing Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta Gundam or ZZ Gundam and enjoy or understand it about as much as someone who had seen one or all of those. They'd miss some references, and that's probably it; because the film explains everything relevant as if the viewer has never seen any of those preceding shows anyway. Wasn't a fan of that idea at all as it's just too edgy for the Gunpla side of the franchise to really be a good idea(the whole point of the Gunpla shows is to be full "Wow Cool Robot" without having to deal with any of the war stuff the regular shows do) Yinlock posted:I think Char just has a huge amount of difficulty seeing past his own short-term gratification. He never seems to imagine what will happen after he gets what he wants out of something. Probably why I like how The Origin simplifies and clarifies Char's whole thing to a much more concise "Char is a psychotic manipulator with enough charisma to hide that truth from most people"
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Feb 24, 2022 20:58
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Yinlock posted:I think Char just has a huge amount of difficulty seeing past his own short-term gratification. He never seems to imagine what will happen after he gets what he wants out of something. This is a much more concise way of summarizing what I was getting at, I think. He's not a super genius running a long con on anyone, he's just shallow and easily distracted if something else catches his eye or stirs him up. This is extra funny in the context of Full Frontal, who is pretty much the opposite and fatalistically chases a given agenda to his own destruction. Full Frontal's death, where he dies because he accepts that he's wrong, is something Char would never do because Char would bug the gently caress out of there in about ten seconds the moment poo poo went south. drrockso20 posted:Probably why I like how The Origin simplifies and clarifies Char's whole thing to a much more concise "Char is a psychotic manipulator with enough charisma to hide that truth from most people" While I love the Origin, its take on Char is honestly one of my least favorite parts about it because it changes him from "shallow, opportunistic, indecisive jerk" to "hyper-competent serial killer psychopath running intentional tenth dimensional chess long cons on everyone he ever meets". It's a completely different character and Origin Char doesn't really even read as a normal human being anymore.
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Feb 24, 2022 22:06
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where can I watch the new seed dub
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Feb 24, 2022 23:00
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NikkolasKing posted:
I think the visual symbolism is important here. In Zeta, we see Casval take off his shades for important, revealing scenes. CCA Char doesn't have a mask, so he's always wearing a mask. There's no face under it until the breakdown at the very end.
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Feb 24, 2022 23:19
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If you cut out all the discussion about whether or not Char's character in CCA makes sense after his development in Zeta, this thread would be 17 pages long.
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Feb 25, 2022 06:09
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https://twitter.com/zeonicscans/status/1497089015534665729?s=20&t=_PM_6OTHMOoCL8XCfBxTzw
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Feb 25, 2022 07:23
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So does 00 Gundam learn that it should be writing actual characters at some point? I'm ten episodes in, and it's really frustrating that it has this really interesting setting based around genuinely exploring its dumb-as-hell idea, and it's generally pretty competent at action, but fuuuuuck, at this point the only Gundam pilot that's shown a shred of personality is Allelujah (and I wish he didn't, hooo boy), and the rest of the cast isn't exactly pulling their weight either.
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Feb 25, 2022 09:02
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Cleretic posted:So does 00 Gundam learn that it should be writing actual characters at some point? I'm ten episodes in, and it's really frustrating that it has this really interesting setting based around genuinely exploring its dumb-as-hell idea, and it's generally pretty competent at action, but fuuuuuck, at this point the only Gundam pilot that's shown a shred of personality is Allelujah (and I wish he didn't, hooo boy), and the rest of the cast isn't exactly pulling their weight either. Bad news. I mean, there's a bit more character focus in season 2, I suppose, but season 1 is considered the "good part", and Setsuna never gets interesting. In fact, he somehow gets even more boring.
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Feb 25, 2022 10:58
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chiasaur11 posted:Bad news. Well, that's disappointing. It wouldn't even be that bad if the show knew its characters sucked, and so de-emphasized them in favor of the political maneuvering and intrigue. But they seem convinced that they wrote a character drama, despite at no point writing characters.
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Feb 25, 2022 11:22
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Cleretic posted:So does 00 Gundam learn that it should be writing actual characters at some point? I'm ten episodes in, and it's really frustrating that it has this really interesting setting based around genuinely exploring its dumb-as-hell idea, and it's generally pretty competent at action, but fuuuuuck, at this point the only Gundam pilot that's shown a shred of personality is Allelujah (and I wish he didn't, hooo boy), and the rest of the cast isn't exactly pulling their weight either. The progagonists aren't the most exciting characters in the world, but the secondary cast are pretty good with Graham, Patrick, Soma Peries etc. That said, a lot of the cast start out specifically very distant and closed off, and the season is about them opening up a bit more over time as things go wrong for them. Tieria especially goes through a shift in that regard.
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Feb 25, 2022 12:40
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Cleretic posted:So does 00 Gundam learn that it should be writing actual characters at some point? I'm ten episodes in, and it's really frustrating that it has this really interesting setting based around genuinely exploring its dumb-as-hell idea, and it's generally pretty competent at action, but fuuuuuck, at this point the only Gundam pilot that's shown a shred of personality is Allelujah (and I wish he didn't, hooo boy), and the rest of the cast isn't exactly pulling their weight either. 00 Gundam is structured kind of oddly in that the protagonists are pretty much all broken people who are initially dedicated to their suicide mission at all costs while initially the human personality comes from the antagonist factions, the characters of which do get a fair amount of development. There won't be a lot of development for the Meisters until, like tsob said, stuff starts to go off the rails. Note that Allelujah's development came when they were technically going off track as well - it's a theme.
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Feb 25, 2022 14:14
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tsob posted:Tieria especially goes through a shift in that regard. Tieria is probably my favorite of the pilots right now, honestly. Initially jokingly in the form of 'oh he's the only one that realizes the rest of the team has a terminal case of the Dramatic Anime Stupids', but his breakdown at the end of episode ten shows that he's actually just holding everyone to a very high standard--including himself, which is clearly weighing hard on him.
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Feb 25, 2022 14:27
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"Patrick Colasour" is a top tier gundam name and the character is pretty fun too, wish he was a focus character instead of a secondary character
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Feb 25, 2022 14:32
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I too wish I could be a Colossal Patrick.
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Feb 25, 2022 16:00
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