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tractor fanatic posted:Can someone explain to me how we can just openly supply Ukraine with weapons and aid the way we are doing? How is it not a major escalation and provocation? Yeah, it was done in all the proxy wars in the past but was it this flagrant? Russia is all feathers, no meat.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:12
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how the gently caress are they this bad at this
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Feb 28, 2022 22:13
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Despera posted:I mean youve seen the lines on the road. Doubt the russians would be bringing tractors with the invasion. Though could be a russian sympathizer. The guy who posted the video of the blue tractor with the z marking said it was a local who painted it to confuse the russians or as a joke but as someone else stated, it may be a way to get friendly fired as well unless the guy is a known local. Another one that I found: https://twitter.com/Caucasuswar/status/1498254276711391235?s=20&t=GYKkKPXebutIZJn9zYaiMQ
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Feb 28, 2022 22:13
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Shifty Pony posted:I am beyond shocked they that Musk actually came through in a timely manner. Like anything Musk-involved we'll see if it actually works.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:13
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tractor fanatic posted:Can someone explain to me how we can just openly supply Ukraine with weapons and aid the way we are doing? How is it not a major escalation and provocation? Yeah, it was done in all the proxy wars in the past but was it this flagrant? That's just how the game has always been played I guess.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:13
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tractor fanatic posted:Can someone explain to me how we can just openly supply Ukraine with weapons and aid the way we are doing? How is it not a major escalation and provocation? Yeah, it was done in all the proxy wars in the past but was it this flagrant? Ukraine is not subject to war- it's subject to 'special military operation' per the Russians and there's no problem with supplying arms to a sovereign state, especially one not at war.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:13
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Shes Not Impressed posted:Russia is all feathers, no meat. They have nukes
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Feb 28, 2022 22:13
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tractor fanatic posted:Can someone explain to me how we can just openly supply Ukraine with weapons and aid the way we are doing? How is it not a major escalation and provocation? Yeah, it was done in all the proxy wars in the past but was it this flagrant? Countries do it clandestinely when they want to maintain plausible deniability so as to avoid pissing someone off. In this case, keeping it secret is pointless, so why bother?
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Feb 28, 2022 22:14
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tractor fanatic posted:Can someone explain to me how we can just openly supply Ukraine with weapons and aid the way we are doing? How is it not a major escalation and provocation? Yeah, it was done in all the proxy wars in the past but was it this flagrant? Bombing cities is also kind-of flagrant, so we just broke Russia's knees (economy) and pulled our dick out.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:14
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Kraftwerk posted:I mean to say the currently committed troops outnumber the Ukranian ones and appear to be able to maintain a wide front while the Ukranians have to pick their fights. Speculation, but I'm not so sure. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ukrainians outnumber the Russians in many areas, that might not count so much out in the open and if the Russians can make their advantage in airpower (especially this), armor, artillery and missiles count, but fighting in cities, yeah, it might count there. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Feb 28, 2022 |
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Feb 28, 2022 22:14
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tractor fanatic posted:Can someone explain to me how we can just openly supply Ukraine with weapons and aid the way we are doing? How is it not a major escalation and provocation? Yeah, it was done in all the proxy wars in the past but was it this flagrant? In Korea, the People's Liberation Army straight up invaded, and Soviet pilots were openly battling Americans in the skies. So there's precedent for pretty blatant intervention that isn't called that.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:14
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tractor fanatic posted:They have nukes So what? Clancychat is verbotten here for a reason.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:14
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cinci zoo sniper posted:They forgot to say "in Europe", which is how this was talked about in the lead up to it. Finally the rogue A-10 pilot got into Ukrainian airspace
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Feb 28, 2022 22:15
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:Current-gen, the crew has a decent chance of surviving. Also depends on things like reactive armor. And yeah, you can still destroy tanks in the modern age with the right soldier, equipment, and tactics, but I'm kind of shadowboxing with anyone who goes into hysterics every time they see a burning tank on the news, declaring the MBT to be dead when I don't see the same sentiments every time a chopper gets clipped with an RPG-7. What about drones that can't be seen by AA that are picking off hundreds of armored vehicles that are having to parade down small road networks to avoid the mud they are getting stuck in?
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Feb 28, 2022 22:15
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tractor fanatic posted:Can someone explain to me how we can just openly supply Ukraine with weapons and aid the way we are doing? How is it not a major escalation and provocation? Yeah, it was done in all the proxy wars in the past but was it this flagrant? Hell it was more flagrant in the past. In the Korean War there was actual Soviet pilots on the other side, and in the Vietnam War there were Soviet SAM operators. Not only that, but the Soviets were sending MiG-21s to Vietnam, which would be like the USA donating new block F-16Vs instead of ATGMs. Thats besides the fact that we also sent Stingers to Afghanistan.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:16
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tractor fanatic posted:They have nukes So does everyone else.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:16
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Preoptopus posted:how the gently caress are they this bad at this What are you implying? I'm worried that might be a Polish bullet convoy on fire or something.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:16
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tractor fanatic posted:Can someone explain to me how we can just openly supply Ukraine with weapons and aid the way we are doing? How is it not a major escalation and provocation? Yeah, it was done in all the proxy wars in the past but was it this flagrant? In Vietnam it 100% was by both the PRC and USSR. And the US, obviously.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:17
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Pre-invasion, it was the largest force amassed on the border of another country in modern history. Post-invasion, it's of limited size and likely to fizzle out shortly. Didn't know modern history started in 2004.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:17
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OctaMurk posted:Hell it was more flagrant in the past. In the Korean War there was actual Soviet pilots on the other side, and in the Vietnam War there were Soviet SAM operators. Not only that, but the Soviets were sending MiG-21s to Vietnam, which would be like the USA donating new block F-16Vs instead of ATGMs. Thats besides the fact that we also sent Stingers to Afghanistan. For a few years during the Vietnam War, there were more than 100,000 PLA soldiers in North Vietnam, manning AA defenses and doing logistical duties. The USAF very deliberately avoided bombing the northernmost chunk of North Vietnam for this reason.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:17
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tractor fanatic posted:They have nukes That they absolutely will not use. Nobody is going to end the world over Ukraine.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:17
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Flesnolk posted:In Korea, the People's Liberation Army straight up invaded, and Soviet pilots were openly battling Americans in the skies. So there's precedent for pretty blatant intervention that isn't called that. In that case it was the "people's volunteer army", and I think the Soviets denied it was them, even if it obviously was
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Feb 28, 2022 22:19
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I think that one of the things this whole experience has showcased is that the whole concept of 'super powers' might be outdated. It's obviously still possible that Russia might win this conflict over a long enough scale but the conventional calculus of soldiers, munitions, and overwhelming force just isn't what it used to be. As an American I've been indoctrinated from birth to believe any world superpower can end a conflict in hours if they want to. Iraq obviously damaged that image but seeing it in a European country is surreal. Obviously this doesn't tell us anything specific about America or China, but now I find myself questioning the whole brand of super powers. I actually find that compelling, and kind of hopeful.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:20
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Shes Not Impressed posted:Russia is all feathers, no meat. All borscht no blyat
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Feb 28, 2022 22:20
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Flesnolk posted:There are like 500 pages since I checked this thread last night, so this one might've been posted already, but what do people think about this thread? It feels like an interesting analysis, and a more sober one than most I've been seeing. Well, everything Twitter says I should read after it is at best Fox News and at worst straight Putin propaganda, so with that large grain of salt... It's...okay-ish? The author is canny enough to read a diagram and understanding "deep battle requires multiple echelons" but is not canny enough to understand it also requires coordination of fires, combined arms, and an exploitation phase. The operations in the east of Ukraine have the fingerprints of deep battle in that they're trying to encircle the Ukrainian forces there, but the pushes toward Kiev and Kharkiv are not as much.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:21
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greazeball posted:All borscht no blyat Don't want to empty quote but this is  And to add, hearing family is still okay in Chernihiv. Cafe guy sent me video of soldiers using the cafe to learn how to field strip and operate a weapon. Looks like they were recording it to spread around. And also serve soldiers delicious sandwiches.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:21
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https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1498407101349072897
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Feb 28, 2022 22:21
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Wistful of Dollars posted:Like anything Musk-involved we'll see if it actually works. He still actually sent the drat things to Ukraine. By Musk promise standards that's pretty impressive.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:22
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Shes Not Impressed posted:So what? Clancychat is verbotten here for a reason. Pointing out Russia has nukes is not "Clancychat" and any analysis of Russian foreign policy (or the foreign policy of any country with nukes) that doesn't take their deterrence into account is going to be bad analysis. pippy posted:So does everyone else. Pray tell, who is "everyone"? NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:That they absolutely will not use. Nobody is going to end the world over Ukraine. This is almost certainly (hopefully!) true, but flippantly handwaving away nukes as if they don't matter seems egregiously myopic.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:22
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Winning the invasion eventually doesn't even mean Russia won in a real sense. People acting like insurgency isn't a thing and "Russia bigger = must win eventually!" is just a huge  in TYOOL 2022.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:23
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cinci zoo sniper posted:What are you implying? I'm worried that might be a Polish bullet convoy on fire or something. I was referring to Russians creating their own traffic jams and getting obliterated. It reminds me of thoes zombie killer phone games.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:23
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Randarkman posted:Speculation, but I'm not so sure. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ukrainians outnumber the Russians in many areas, that might not count so much out in the open and if the Russians can make their advantage in airpower (especially this), armor, artillery and missiles count, but fighting in cities, yeah, it might count there. Partly I think it probably depends what you count--frontline troops? Reserves? Militias with AKs and RPGs? Civilians with molotovs?
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Feb 28, 2022 22:23
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:He still actually sent the drat things to Ukraine. By Musk promise standards that's pretty impressive. How long before he has a meltdown and calls Zelenskyy a pedo?
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Feb 28, 2022 22:24
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Preoptopus posted:I was referring to Russians creating their own traffic jams and getting obliterated. It reminds me of thoes zombie killer phone games. Next dashcam footage compilation is gonna be lit
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Feb 28, 2022 22:24
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https://twitter.com/PR_NHL/status/1498393869188313097 This is what will make Putin realize he's gone too far.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:25
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tractor fanatic posted:In that case it was the "people's volunteer army", and I think the Soviets denied it was them, even if it obviously was A part of it is that pretty much all of the EU has committed to it, even Finland and Sweden are sending actual weapons and stuff which is pretty much unprecedented at least for Finland. Russia is a bully, but they'll have a hard time responding to the entirety of the West doing it, nukes or no. Maybe they'll do some economic nonsense, but they have their hands full with their own internal economy imploding due to the sanctions. I doubt even Putin is prepared for escalating this to a full-out Europe-wide active war.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:25
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TipTow posted:Pointing out Russia has nukes is not "Clancychat" and any analysis of Russian foreign policy (or the foreign policy of any country with nukes) that doesn't take their deterrence into account is going to be bad analysis. Bringing them up implies you think they'll be used, which is straight Clancychat. No one's going to use them, so they're irrelevant.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:25
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Preoptopus posted:I was referring to Russians creating their own traffic jams and getting obliterated. It reminds me of thoes zombie killer phone games. Oh, that, yes, rather embarrassing to see. The linked tweet though was to point at a fire on an unrelated highway that should be under Ukrainian control.
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Feb 28, 2022 22:26
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Thread moves fast. Few notes: 1) This war might have elevated russian deaths-to-injury counts, because there's apparently been a lot of times when a transport is killed it still has its troops onboard (since they're staying in safe metal box and are not out screening). Just something to factor in when considering losses. 2) Haven't seen it mentioned here, but Russia's decided to declare a stock market/bank holiday lasting until at least the 5th in an attempt to avoid dealing with the sanction hangover/reality. So for everyone wondering how long they can keep things locked down--that's a good indicator. 3) Russian oligarchs just lost another tax haven: https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1498407101349072897
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Feb 28, 2022 22:26
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Also, also...Keep in mind Ukraine is under general mobilization. This war is still very heavily in Russia's favor, but the longer they drag this out, the more time territorial defense units have to form and train. As we're seeing, a few dozen highly-motivated light infantry can do a lot of damage. Russia does not have a large enough force to lock down all of Ukraine. They certainly have enough to lock down parts of it, but as someone pointed out: if they've suffered even half the KIA reported, that's a huge percentage of soldiers for less than a week into what could turn into a very long fight.
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