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KozmoNaut posted:"Why stand up and fight if you're not 100% sure you can win?" russia isn't nazi germany despite what you tend to read online these days, and isn't going to genocide all the slavs once they're done with the conquests, so this is a very fair question IMO
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Mar 1, 2022 12:54
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NihilCredo posted:Yeah, Zensursula lives up to her old nickname. I'm a free speech extremist, but I'm also a big fan of reciprocity in international politics, and I doubt you can freely watch European news channel in Russia right now Since I live in Europe I don't know what channels air in Russia. What about you? Are you in Moscow? It's alarming that in my so free, rightouse and modern Europe someone think censure is the right way to go. But I'm sure the true free speech extremists will soon intervene and save us
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Mar 1, 2022 12:54
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Orange Devil posted:Let's rephrase to: Because, given the RIA press release that was intended to be sent in the event of victory 72 hours after the invasion, it's clear that Minsk II and neutrality wasn't actually what was desired in any case, and that such a declaration would have been followed by an invasion anyway, because the goal was actually to force Ukraine into the status of 'Union State' like Belarus. Neutrality would have probably been followed by an invasion. At a basic level, taking such a stance would imply the correct decision is to bow to every military threat from a more powerful country, even if it is bluster.
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Mar 1, 2022 12:56
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Orange Devil posted:Let's rephrase to: Russia made it explicit there was no alternative compatible with basic human rights and dignity. Slavery and genocide are never an alternative to freedom. We know for a fact any promises to the contrary were never anything but criminal perfidy by Russian government. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 13:00
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A lot of things are preferable to slavery and genocide.just ask Libya. Analysing how we got here is important, but only if it doesnt blind us to whats happening in the now.i think this is some kind of leftist philosophy and everything.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:04
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Omon Ra posted:What do you want to discuss about those news? Why should Europe enable the propaganda of a hostile state that just invaded a country, and why would Europe want Putin to stay in power? A lot of people in Europe want Putin to stay in power. It is one of the reasons he thinks he could get away with invading Ukraine. Because the demonstrations against him are headed by the communist and other groups far left of him, which means any plausible replacement would be a communist. That is why they are generally missing in most news reports about the invasion. I personally do think him being deposed in a liberal or communist revolution or even election would be the best possible outcome.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:06
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Orange Devil posted:As poo poo as Putin is (and again, this man is very, very poo poo), I haven't seen any indication he intends to genocide the Ukrainian people. And I think it is important that we continue to distinguish gradations in the bad things people do. If everything bad is immediately the worst possible thing then we lose perspective and also diminish the severity of the actual worst things. So like, fighting yourself to death even if you have no chance of winning against an enemy intent on genociding you is very understandable. Doing the same against an enemy attempting to enforce much less harsh demands on you is questionable. Russia doesn't have the resources or the interest in rebuilding Ukraine after this is over. It doesn't even give a poo poo about its current destitute imperial periphery outside of Moscow. If Russia wins, Ukrainians have nothing to look forward to except living in ruins as an impoverished and occupied Russian kleptostate. Independence gives hope for at least some kind of positive future.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:06
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Truga posted:russia isn't nazi germany despite what you tend to read online these days, and isn't going to genocide all the slavs once they're done with the conquests, so this is a very fair question IMO Putin's Russia is well-known for doing whatever the hell Putin wants, including turning Litvinenko into basically a human dirty bomb, and poisoning several people with extremely dangerous nerve agents, completely disregarding the collateral damage caused. Not to mention was has happened to the Chechens and the Ossetians and a whole bunch of other people who Putin decided that he didn't like and/or he wanted their land.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:09
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KozmoNaut posted:Ah yes, Zelenskyy whipping and beating the unwilling Ukrainians to fight for him, threatening to torture their families and kick their dogs if they don't pick up their weapons and fight This has nothing to do with what I have said. Panzeh posted:At a basic level, taking such a stance would imply the correct decision is to bow to every military threat from a more powerful country, even if it is bluster. It is generally preferable to avoid war in case you are severely outclassed, even if that means making painful concessions, yes. See also Armenia and Azerbaijan. steinrokkan posted:Russia made it explicit there was no alternative compatible with basic human rights and dignity. Slavery and genocide are never an alternative to freedom. We know for a fact that Russia was planning to genocide and/or enslave the Ukrainian people? Come the gently caress on. GABA ghoul posted:Russia doesn't have the resources or the interest in rebuilding Ukraine after this is over. It doesn't even give a poo poo about its current destitute imperial periphery outside of Moscow. If Russia wins, Ukrainians have nothing to look forward to except living in ruins as an impoverished and occupied Russian kleptostate. Independence gives hope for at least some kind of positive future. Which is why I am saying that avoiding the war, even at the cost of painful concessions but at the benefit of not having your whole country destroyed by bombs and rockets, seems preferable.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:10
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If Russia gets its way, it's going to do complete Russification of Ukraine and systematically exterminate all identifiable Ukrainian "nationalist" leaders and elites. We already know they have the kill lists compiled. I.e. a form of genocide.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:12
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KozmoNaut posted:Putin's Russia is well-known for doing whatever the hell Putin wants, including turning Litvinenko into basically a human dirty bomb, and poisoning several people with extremely dangerous nerve agents, completely disregarding the collateral damage caused. so what you're saying is, ukraine should surrender *before* putin's army murders even more people like they did in those other conflicts? yeah, i agree
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Mar 1, 2022 13:13
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Really stretching the definition of genocide there to the point of devaluing the term completely imo. What's next, a state executing a death penalty is committing genocide? Get real. I mean, Minsk II would have seen Donetsk and Luhansk reintegrate as part of Ukraine, but with certain rights and governance devolved to oblast levels.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:14
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Orange Devil posted:Really stretching the definition of genocide there to the point of devaluing the term completely imo. It's part of the standard definitiosn. Destruction of national identity through political terror, of its distinguishing marks and public representatives. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 13:15
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So how does that square with Putin explicitly stating he is not intending on Russia occupying nor annexing at the least the majority of Ukraine?
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Mar 1, 2022 13:17
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steinrokkan posted:We already know they have the kill lists compiled. I.e. a form of genocide. compiled kill lists? literally every single army has a list of high value targets for all their neigbhours, and sometimes even not-so-neighbours. if your army doesn't, you should probably fire and replace them ASAP because they're incompetent what even is this talking point lmao
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Mar 1, 2022 13:18
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Orange Devil posted:So how does that square with Putin explicitly stating he is not intending on Russia occupying nor annexing at the least the majority of Ukraine? Does he need to occupy Belarus to control it
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Mar 1, 2022 13:18
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Why are we even debating the question "do Ukrainian people think the consequences of surrendering to Russia are bad enough that it's worth fighting for?", the question is very obviously yes. Obviously not 100% of the population, but it's the clear majority sentiment. In fact, the answer to the question "are there non-Ukrainian people who think the consequences of Ukrain surrendering to Russia are bad enough that it's worth fighting for?" is also yes.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:20
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Orange Devil posted:So how does that square with Putin explicitly stating he is not intending on Russia occupying nor annexing at the least the majority of Ukraine? Are you genuinely still taking Putin's 'I don't want a war and have no intention of invading Ukraine' statements at face value still?
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Mar 1, 2022 13:21
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loving hell, never would have thought that EU could actually deal with a crisis like this in a united and strong manner. I wonder what this closing the ranks will mean regarding further European integration, especially foreign policy and military front. Maybe stronger articles of mutual defense than those of Lisbon treaty would be a start? As a Finn I've come around in support of NATO membership for our country but maybe it would be smarter to get "backdoored" in through EU clauses of mutual defense than seeking outright NATO membership. Joining NATO outright would give Putin reason in his and his useful idiots deluded minds to seek 'ukrainization' policy regarding my country but a strong EU defense clause would just be a matter EU politics that is harder for imperialism defenders to challenge.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:22
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Glah posted:loving hell, never would have thought that EU could actually deal with a crisis like this in a united and strong manner. I wonder what this closing the ranks will mean regarding further European integration, especially foreign policy and military front. Maybe stronger articles of mutual defense than those of Lisbon treaty would be a start? As a Finn I've come around in support of NATO membership for our country but maybe it would be smarter to get "backdoored" in through EU clauses of mutual defense than seeking outright NATO membership. Joining NATO outright would give Putin reason in his and his useful idiots deluded minds to seek 'ukrainization' policy regarding my country but a strong EU defense clause would just be a matter EU politics that is harder for imperialism defenders to challenge. hopefully it results in a united EU army, further paving way to federalization, because whatever EU is right now isn't working very well in a lot of places outside the core states (and especially in poland/hungary)
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Mar 1, 2022 13:25
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steinrokkan posted:Does he need to occupy Belarus to control it Is the population of Belarus being genocided and/or enslaved? Walh Hara posted:Why are we even debating the question "do Ukrainian people think the consequences of surrendering to Russia are bad enough that it's worth fighting for?", the question is very obviously yes. Obviously not 100% of the population, but it's the clear majority sentiment. I'm not really clear that we are actually debating anything, but my point is that the Ukrainian government has hosed up majorly by rejecting Minsk II, and that the US and NATO share responsibility there for egging them on. The result of that is now going to be a terrible cost paid by the Ukrainian population. Their willingness so far to pay that cost notwithstanding. They shouldn't have to pay this cost in the first place because: 1. Russia should not have invaded, hence Russia and especially Putin being primarily responsible and also very bad. In a just world the entire Russian upper government and military would be tried and convicted for the crime of aggression at the ICC. The chance of this actually happening is zero. 2A. The Ukrainian government should not have risked this war by tearing up Minsk II and refusing all negotiations prior to Putin's unhinged speech last Monday blaming Lenin or whatever. 2B. The US and NATO should not have led the Ukrainian government down this path with false assurances and egging on. 2C. Armed and organised fascist groups should not have been allowed to exist inside Ukraine, let alone be integrated into their official armed forces, as they would predictably have an outsized influence on politics by being able to threaten a coup and/or political assassinations, thereby undermining government sovereignty. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 13:31
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Glah posted:loving hell, never would have thought that EU could actually deal with a crisis like this in a united and strong manner. I wonder what this closing the ranks will mean regarding further European integration, especially foreign policy and military front. Maybe stronger articles of mutual defense than those of Lisbon treaty would be a start? As a Finn I've come around in support of NATO membership for our country but maybe it would be smarter to get "backdoored" in through EU clauses of mutual defense than seeking outright NATO membership. Joining NATO outright would give Putin reason in his and his useful idiots deluded minds to seek 'ukrainization' policy regarding my country but a strong EU defense clause would just be a matter EU politics that is harder for imperialism defenders to challenge. Its pretty shocking. In one go Putin has managed to: - Strengthen the unification/integration of the EU hugely by providing a common enemy/goal to work against - Likely speed up the forming of a shared EU defense system by decades - Spur a complete revolution in German defense policy and spending - Completely revitalize NATO and give justification for its existence (and possible expansion to countries like Finland and Sweden) to those who were doubting it - Encourage Europe to rapidly reduce its dependence on Russian gas - Massively increase military spending across Europe As well as wrecking the Russian economy, suffering large military losses, and damaging Russian diplomatic ties around the world hugely at the same time. The US couldn't have asked for a better series of events. The State Department is probably having champagne parties.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:32
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Glah posted:loving hell, never would have thought that EU could actually deal with a crisis like this in a united and strong manner. I wonder what this closing the ranks will mean regarding further European integration, especially foreign policy and military front. Maybe stronger articles of mutual defense than those of Lisbon treaty would be a start? As a Finn I've come around in support of NATO membership for our country but maybe it would be smarter to get "backdoored" in through EU clauses of mutual defense than seeking outright NATO membership. Joining NATO outright would give Putin reason in his and his useful idiots deluded minds to seek 'ukrainization' policy regarding my country but a strong EU defense clause would just be a matter EU politics that is harder for imperialism defenders to challenge. Keep in mind that only a select few have reacted with more than "thoughts and prayers", Italy and several others are still taking time on anything but humanitarian effort and the supposed providers of russian-type jets are publicly denying to ever accepted the deal. Frontex becoming something more useful than a broomstick army would be the surprise of the century, but we live in interesting times
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Mar 1, 2022 13:32
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Truga posted:hopefully it results in a united EU army,
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Mar 1, 2022 13:34
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Orange Devil posted:So how does that square with Putin explicitly stating he is not intending on Russia occupying nor annexing at the least the majority of Ukraine? How does it square with him explicitly stating that Ukraine is a nation invented by Lenin? EDIT: Or the writeup publicized in state media where the question of Ukraine independence has been answered by him.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:36
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mmkay posted:How does it square with him explicitly stating that Ukraine is a nation invented by Lenin? 
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Mar 1, 2022 13:39
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Glah posted:There's a lot of talk about united EU military but what would it entail? Personally I'm against united EU military in a sense of it being one huge military. I wouldn't gamble national defense on what people on other side of Europe want, our defense should be tailored to our needs, ie. conscription etc.. But national militaries with united foreign policy, command structures, fast acting common battle groups (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_Battlegroup being a prototype) and materiel procurement and development? Hell yes, those should have happened yesterday. The current EU entities on that topic provide nothing more than materiel harmonization since anything more that tut-tutting foreign adversaries in the last several decades have been under UN or NATO umbrellas. Most eurozone militaries have been in heavy cut mode since the Berlin wall fell and they have heavy issues with staffing and modernization, nobody in peace time wants to discuss war beyond the most horrid war hawks but at this point i'm expecting something to be quickly put on the table by Germany and France (which are the main tech leads on the sector since UK has jumped ship). Conscription would be a political suicide esp in times of war or near conflict, i'm guessing heavy drone capabilities and ewar to be the first deliverables in an organic eu army
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Mar 1, 2022 13:41
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Blut posted:The US couldn't have asked for a better series of events. The State Department is probably having champagne parties. Which calls into question the motives of the US and NATO doing what I described in point 2B above. Given the past 75 years, I would not be surprised if the US deliberately set Ukraine up to take this hit to serve its own geopolitical goals at the cost of who knows how many thousands of Ukrainian lives and who knows how many millions displaced.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:43
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Orange Devil posted:Which calls into question the motives of the US and NATO doing what I described in point 2B above. Lmao, the absolute lack of any kind of shame
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Mar 1, 2022 13:45
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Orange Devil posted:Which calls into question the motives of the US and NATO doing what I described in point 2B above. Either deliver some proof or stop pandering about lovely conspiracy theories.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:46
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Orange Devil posted:Given the past 75 years, I would not be surprised if the US deliberately set Ukraine up to take this hit to serve its own geopolitical goals at the cost of who knows how many thousands of Ukrainian lives and who knows how many millions displaced.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:47
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Orange Devil posted:Which calls into question the motives of the US and NATO doing what I described in point 2B above. Ah yes, those Ukrainians were just sitting there, devoid of any thoughts and desires until USA came and started giving them ideas.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:48
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Orange Devil posted:Which calls into question the motives of the US and NATO doing what I described in point 2B above. Ah yes and finally the mask comes off (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 1, 2022 13:49
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steinrokkan posted:Lmao, the absolute lack of any kind of shame After a few days of failure Putin's tankies have reorganised themselves and resumed the offensive using their well practised doctrine and tactics. Wait did I misspell something there
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Mar 1, 2022 13:49
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Orange Devil posted:Which calls into question the motives of the US and NATO doing what I described in point 2B above. The US and NATO didn't cause any of those results. Putin ordering his troops to invade Ukraine and cluster bomb civilians, with no justification other than imperialism or insanity, did. The blame (or thanks, from a certain EU/American perspective) for all of these outcomes rests squarely on Putin's shoulders.
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Mar 1, 2022 13:53
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I wonder about the fine print on this. Also, every member state has a veto, iirc. But Zelenskyy is really good at guilting EU leaders to do much more for Ukraine than I ever thought they would be willing to, good on him.
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Mar 1, 2022 14:05
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No, I'm pretty sure I can blame the us, the eu and several different people at the imf, Deutsch bank and so on. Not for the war,of course.just for propping up and doing business with Putin, at least since 2003, definitely since 2008.
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Mar 1, 2022 14:09
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Torrannor posted:I wonder about the fine print on this. Also, every member state has a veto, iirc. But Zelenskyy is really good at guilting EU leaders to do much more for Ukraine than I ever thought they would be willing to, good on him. Even in best case scenario with no opposition the process is designed to take years of work. Additionally it is a de facto admission condition to have no open border disputes, due to precedent set in negotiations with Balkan countries. It's a symbolic gesture.
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Mar 1, 2022 14:13
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Torrannor posted:I wonder about the fine print on this. Also, every member state has a veto, iirc. But Zelenskyy is really good at guilting EU leaders to do much more for Ukraine than I ever thought they would be willing to, good on him. Apparently this only means "accepted (as in delivery of) the application".
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Mar 1, 2022 14:27
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Blut posted:The US and NATO didn't cause any of those results. Putin ordering his troops to invade Ukraine and cluster bomb civilians, with no justification other than imperialism or insanity, did. I think its fair to blame that stuff. But straight up saying "Euromaidan was a fascist US backed revolution, which is why the fascist nationalist party was unable to capture more than 2% of the vote and only one seat and couldn't stop a Jewish man being elected president" gets really really tiring.
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Mar 1, 2022 14:55
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