|
Warmachine posted:I think the preponderance of teenagers as a stand in for the next generation that inherits the currents problems are also thrown into stark relief by the political awareness of the 2010s and now 2020s that we're experiencing the cracks in a foundation laid by people three to four generations back. Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z have all inherited issues baked into the fabric of society by Baby Boomers. They largely have had little opportunity to break this mold because the oldest generation is still firmly entrenched in the power structure, so you have a cohort of people between 12 and 50 years old all struggling with problems that are sourced from a bunch of octogenarians. This is a really America-centric conception of generations.
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 00:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 20:28 |
|
|
Cleretic posted:FF8 in general is a game that has a lot of things that could be themes, but never really comments on them so much as just... has them. It could be a game about child soldiers, just like how it could be a game about time travel. But instead it's just a game WITH child soldiers and time travel. I think it's definitely this. I will say that I love me some Final Fantasy 8 in large part because it's a ridiculously expansive game. There's like a thousand little side details or weird setting things or interesting character beats or compelling ideas or tiny fascinating grace notes that make the setting feel more lived in. Of the PSX FF games I think it had the biggest feeling world just because there was just so much to see in it. But don't get me wrong, it was scattershot as all hell. FF8 was crammed full of stuff and I think the cast is underrated and I adore how much there is to it, but if we are talking about the story it's less than the sum of its parts. I'm sure us Gunota in the thread can point to a couple of on-topic examples of that as well.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 00:45
|
|
|
Kanos posted:You could have done a show like IBO's themes fairly closely with everyone being an adult. You'd lose the grimdark shock factor of "literal children being enslaved, cyborged up and used as cannon fodder slaves", but a world where young adults have no future hope or prospects in a system that exists to grind them to paste so their only option is to sell themselves as cannon fodder isn't far behind. Not really. Iron Blooded Orphans is one of the Gundams that's actually about the kids being kids. It's less of a thing with the characters like Biscuit, Orga, Eugene, and Akihiro, since they're all close enough to adulthood that it's less obvious, but characters like Ride and Takaki are defined by their innocence. They aren't old enough to understand the choices they make, which is important to understanding the tragedies of the show. Hell, Kudelia's whole crusade revolves around her response to the children of Mars, including her hiring Tekkadan. (It's specifically called out early on that she wants to have the child soldier unit escort her, so she can try to understand them.) Now, Kudelia being 16 in season 1? Sure, that feels a bit like a demographics thing, or at least, setting her up to be in a relationship with Mika and Atra. But children and adults are different, and going "this show about child soldiers would be BASICALLY THE SAME if they were adults, since poverty is still bad for adults!" feels like it's pretty wide of the mark.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 00:49
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/umedachanka/status/1499115746156322819?t=NHT38tTZsJTHb7w1iZDMUw&s=19
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 00:54
|
|
|
ninjewtsu posted:i think you could still make this point with an adult protagonist What is an adult? is someone in their 30's who's been spinning their wheels trying to survive an evil Tomino adult? do you become bad the moment you turn 18?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 01:29
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:https://twitter.com/umedachanka/status/1499115746156322819?t=NHT38tTZsJTHb7w1iZDMUw&s=19 No Sasro, huh? Interesting, since he does exist in the anime and Origins continuities. (He's brought up in "The Plot to Assassinate Gihren.")
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 01:31
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:What is an adult? is someone in their 30's who's been spinning their wheels trying to survive an evil Tomino adult? do you become bad the moment you turn 18? I feel like "you are just trying to survive and maintain a status quo for yourself regardless of future generations suffering" is exactly the kind of adult Tomino criticizes, including himself. That is basically what the Federation is.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 01:42
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I feel like "you are just trying to survive and maintain a status quo for yourself regardless of future generations suffering" is exactly the kind of adult Tomino criticizes, including himself. That is basically what the Federation is. that's just life
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 01:44
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I feel like "you are just trying to survive and maintain a status quo for yourself regardless of future generations suffering" is exactly the kind of adult Tomino criticizes, including himself. That is basically what the Federation is. Well, I'm sorry for Tomino that he feels people like me just trying our best to survive isn't good enough.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 01:49
|
|
|
That summary is interesting but like, are there really Zabi stans out there? I absolutely get supporting Garma and even Dozel, but Kycillia is pretty awful and only looks half decent because of Gihren being the absolute worst. I get in universe Zabi family supporters since I can imagine they hid how awful they were from average folks, but out of universe Zabi fans? gently caress the Zabi, Zeon Zum Deikun did nothing wrong (other than not smothering Casval in his sleep).
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 01:55
|
|
|
PringleCreamEgg posted:That summary is interesting but like, are there really Zabi stans out there Of course there are.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 02:01
|
|
|
i liked Kycilia Zabi when she was named Harulu Ajiba
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 02:11
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:Well, I'm sorry for Tomino that he feels people like me just trying our best to survive isn't good enough. Well I mean that's the point. By any objective measure it isn't. That doesn't make it something that can't be empathized with or understood. It's something all of us here are trying to do because in many cases it is all we can do. Surviving day by day can be all we're asked before we break. But at the end of the day us choosing our survival and stability just passes that cost down to the next generation. Gundam makes that extremely literal by foisting the bulk of the fighting onto that next generation, but that doesn't change the subtext there. The people who truly have to pay the cost for our decisions are not us, but the people who come after us, and prioritizing survival and comfort is at once a perfectly justifiable path to take and us telling the next generation that we're willing to let them die horribly. This sucks. It sucks a lot. It sucks that our generation has been so beaten down and wrecked and depowered that we feel like our only choice is to survive. But at the end of the day those younger people who have to deal with what we've done won't be made any safer or more comfortable by our sadness. And this is something our generation accepts which is why so many people are foregoing children, because we know what we'd be leaving behind. "Adults are evil" aren't just the maliciously cackling Zabis. They can also be the uncaring status-quo preserving Federation. And that is why that theme is important to the concept. It isn't just War Is Bad, it is "War is fought using the lives of the young" in every sense of the word. To remove that from Gundam really drains the impact it has in favor of making something more marketable, and goddamn if "Make this cartoon show more marketable to me, an adult, by lessening the audience it is targeting" isn't the perfect encapsulation for why it needs that message.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 02:15
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:https://twitter.com/umedachanka/status/1499115746156322819?t=NHT38tTZsJTHb7w1iZDMUw&s=19 Reminded of a fanfic I saw once where a guy got Isekae'd into Ghiren Zabi that was actually kind of fun if also a bit wanky(due to the guy having outside knowledge of Gundam as a franchise and being able to utilize it from a position of power)
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 02:29
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Reminded of a fanfic I saw once where a guy got Isekae'd into Ghiren Zabi that was actually kind of fun if also a bit wanky(due to the guy having outside knowledge of Gundam as a franchise and being able to utilize it from a position of power) I feel like "Oh hey, I died and was reborn as Gundam Hitler" would uh be hard to be a fun power fantasy. Unless you used it to make the world the best place possible which doesn't seem entirely in his wheelhouse.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 02:33
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I feel like "Oh hey, I died and was reborn as Gundam Hitler" would uh be hard to be a fun power fantasy. Well it's helped a bit that the "insert point" is relatively early, before Ghiren has really had the chance to do anything super shady(at least as far as we know) and yeah trying to change things for the better is definitely part and parcel for what the guy inserted into Ghiren is trying to do
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 03:05
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Well I mean that's the point. By any objective measure it isn't. That doesn't make it something that can't be empathized with or understood. It's something all of us here are trying to do because in many cases it is all we can do. Surviving day by day can be all we're asked before we break. But at the end of the day us choosing our survival and stability just passes that cost down to the next generation. Being told that I'm evil just because I'm an adult and trying to change the world for the better while trying to survive isn't really. Look, a lot of people don't have the privilege of having a chance of making the world better. Telling people that they're "Evil Adults" because of that is just some downright new age 70's spiritual elitism.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 05:09
|
|
|
Why are you taking it personally
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 05:17
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:Being told that I'm evil just because I'm an adult and trying to change the world for the better while trying to survive isn't really. Yeah, see, if you're contributing to material suffering through inaction and apathy, then the people suffering do have the right to point that out. The fact that you are incentivised to hurt people and disincentivised to help them in an extractive capitalist society does not change the basic fact that people are hurt rather than helped by your actions, and that this is a problem that is more traditionally solved through the collective action of the have-nots than the largesse of the haves.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 05:23
|
|
|
Can anyone who has read Chars Deleted Affair tell me any new info on Ilya Pazom, I need it for research but I don't want to read it myself and none of the Wiki's have any info as to her role.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 06:24
|
|
|
Do you remember what the gihren si is called
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 06:35
|
|
|
Stairmaster posted:Do you remember what the gihren si is called SI?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 06:40
|
|
|
Onmi posted:SI? Self Insert Gaius Marius posted:Why are you taking it personally Because there are a massive amount of people in my age group (Roughly 30's) who spent the last two decades growing up watching the world get hosed over and us being left to face most of the consequences, and now that we're in our 30's we get told by the media we consume that we're part of the problem just because we're in our 30s and trying our best to survive and not make things worse . Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Mar 3, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 07:55
|
|
|
Stairmaster posted:Do you remember what the gihren si is called found it(you'll probably need to make an account to access it though); Mobile Suit Gundam: Gihren's Glory
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 08:43
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:Because there are a massive amount of people in my age group (Roughly 30's) who spent the last two decades growing up watching the world get hosed over and us being left to face most of the consequences, and now that we're in our 30's we get told by the media we consume that we're part of the problem just because we're in our 30s and trying our best to survive and not make things worse .
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 08:50
|
|
|
Overall Gundam does recognize general levels of complicity, it really should be noted. A soldier just following orders is part of a horrible system even if they don't want to be, but far worse are the military leaders pointing that soldier at enemies or the politicians making that war happen in the first place. While it talks much less about the civilian side of it all, generally speaking it lines up, albeit to a lesser degree. Passively accepting a terrible status quo sure isn't good, but there's people far more worthy of pointing the gun at.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 09:31
|
|
|
Neo_Crimson posted:This is a really America-centric conception of generations. It's all I know. Do you have an example from a different culture, because I'd be interested to read it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 14:33
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:Overall Gundam does recognize general levels of complicity, it really should be noted. A soldier just following orders is part of a horrible system even if they don't want to be, but far worse are the military leaders pointing that soldier at enemies or the politicians making that war happen in the first place. While it talks much less about the civilian side of it all, generally speaking it lines up, albeit to a lesser degree. Passively accepting a terrible status quo sure isn't good, but there's people far more worthy of pointing the gun at. Yeah It should be clarified that in the Novel and certain other sources this is text. Many people are responsible in small part but there are certain people who drive things forward so hard Newtypes can pick them out. "Adults are the enemy" isn't the same as "all adults are equally the enemy"
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 14:51
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:I think the preponderance of teenagers as a stand in for the next generation that inherits the currents problems are also thrown into stark relief by the political awareness of the 2010s and now 2020s that we're experiencing the cracks in a foundation laid by people three to four generations back. Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z have all inherited issues baked into the fabric of society by Baby Boomers. They largely have had little opportunity to break this mold because the oldest generation is still firmly entrenched in the power structure, so you have a cohort of people between 12 and 50 years old all struggling with problems that are sourced from a bunch of octogenarians. It's not like the One Year War was exclusively caused by the previous generation to the teenagers inhabiting the White Base, and really, a lot of it was caused by the way the Federation setup the colonies to function 79 years previously i.e. several generations back. It is exacerbated by the greed of Gihren, Kycilia and Degwin but they were really just taking advantage of a society already deeply hosed up by the actions of preceding generations and leaders. It's also not like everyone in charge is one generation previous to Amuro, and while Degwin no longer rules Side 3 as anything but a puppet by show's beginning, the Federation leaders we see are all in their 50s or 60s; at least one generation back again. And, if you go back and look at the beginnings of the Universal Century, as laid out by the novels, data books etc. the colonial system was seen as a plan to help save humanity from an environmental crisis brought on by generations of abuse. Amuro's generation also, explicitly, did not fix anything and ended up mostly maintaining a status quo themselves, passing a lot of the same problems on to successive generations. They defeated any authoritarians that popped up, but that's kind of it. One of the major themes of Char's Counterattack is that a lot of these things are down to human nature, and you can't just solve them in to fell swoop and pass on a better world just like that. Amuro even calls Char out on how revolutionaries end up embittered by how their causes are hijacked and end up failing. Char wanted to make a major change in the Earthsphere regardless of cost, and Amuro's ultimate argument with him was that you had to give people time to change on their own. Which wasn't going to happen overnight, or even, really, in a couple of generations. Which is why it's not any kind of indictment of Amuro's argument that people and society are still suffering the same problems thousands of years later in Turn A and/or G-Reco. Similarly, the fallout of World War II included several major political and social changes that were seen as greatly benefitting the world at the time, after it got hosed up due to problems baked in by the failings and solutions of the last several generations. It's all a big cycle, with the solutions we enact causing problems for the future; or at least allowing people to focus on other problems, because nothing is perfect, and those humans with the most opportunity are often going to take advantage of systems and situations to advantage themselves regardless. That's just human nature, and the nature of society as a whole due to it being made up of people. NikkolasKing posted:Specifically in the case of Heero, if he was a 25-year-old who was raised as a child soldier, not too much would really change in terms of his issues or how he tries to deal with them. I don't know, Heero's relationship with Relena would probably be more stable if he were ten years older, for one. As is, the heavy melodrama stands out as a teenage thing, and while the best adult comparisons like Zechs/Noin aren't exactly models of maturity, they are at least relatively less crazy in how they approach each other. Relative being the operative word there. Heero's straight forward but melodramatic approach to the world (I'll ask the families of everyone I killed whether I deserve to live or not) feels like it's a fairly specific teenage mood. Kou, whose name has been mentioned as one of the older protagonists who could technically be an adult, might be worth considering here, because he's almost a contrast given that despite being one of the oldest protagonist, he is, in many ways, the least mature of the Gundam protagonists. Which is remarkable given that Uso and Kio are 13. Kou comes off as someone who has basically never really had to deal with girls, and is completely lost romantically, as well as refusing to eat foods he doesn't like in a very childish manner reminiscent of a 5 year old. Which, yes, I'm aware it's a VA joke; but still doesn't help perceptions of him. There's also his stubbornness in using the GP-01 in space despite it not being set up for it, his rivalry with Monsha etc. Heero comes off as a teenager because he's so dramatic, but Kou comes off as a preteen because he just seems lost or unable to deal with the world not being what he wants a lot of the time. Fivemarks posted:What is an adult? is someone in their 30's who's been spinning their wheels trying to survive an evil Tomino adult? do you become bad the moment you turn 18? An adult is a social construct, which is more obvious when you consider the existence of teenagers; which are a relatively new concept, that's only really been a thing in the last 100/150 years. At any point before that there was just children, and then adults and you may have been considered an adult at a fairly wide variety of ages depending on the society you were born into. Which could vary wildly even in the same place within the space of few centuries, because in some times and places children of 8 were expected to be doing full time jobs. They still lived at home with their parents, but they had a lot of the responsibility that we would consider the hallmarks of adulthood. Hell, if you were a girl you might be married off at that young age too in a lot of places and times. It's why Japanese boys came of age at 15 in the Sengoku period, for instance and thus you had people of that age leading armies and holding political authority on their own, and not through stewards of any kind. The relative peace, middle class wealth, social rejection of child labor and plummeting child death numbers of the last century+ meant that children were afforded the leisure to just be children for more than 10(ish) years, and could stay children socially until their 20s. That lack of specific responsibility has meant that you are slower to mature too, because you don't have to be anymore, just to survive. As another point of reference, think about the mentally handicapped; people whose minds have never been able to develop alongside their bodies. My cousin died a few years ago, but despite being 40+ years old when she died, she had the mentality of a toddler and had her entire life. I'm not sure exactly what was wrong with her medically, but she never matured mentally (or, presumably, emotionally; though I didn't spend enough time around her to really know that). And I do mean a literal toddler; she wore diapers most of the time, and despite being a full grown adult, couldn't walk or look after herself in any way, shape or form. Her family had to buy special equipment to lift her around the house, because it was literally breaking her father's back to try and do so given her size and weight. It'd be a very hosed up society that considered her an adult, and ever wanted to hold her to adult standards; socially, legally, etc. The only adult standard I could maybe see her being held to would be medical, since she was, physically. You don't become an adult at a specific age, and never have. You become an adult when you start accepting responsibility for yourself and others around you, I suppose, basically. Gundam tends to be about teenagers who start quite immature, but mature over the course of the story and could, under that view, be seen as adults by the end of the story because they have taken some responsibility for themselves, others around them, their actions and/or their effect on the setting. They are generally forced to do so before society in general thinks they should though i.e. children, and in the harshest of ways i.e. war. Uso could be viewed as an adult by the end of Victory, despite being only 13. I'm not sure Jerid ever could be though, despite being in his early 20s, because he just pawned all his problems off on others and had been doing so since the start of the story. Reccoa is somewhat Tomino commenting on that too, because Reccoa is a former child soldier who survived the One Year War by becoming a guerrilla, but was also completely hosed up by her experiences during the war. Including no longer being able to function in normal society, and feeling she had to be in a war to feel alive. Which was itself losing any thrill or glamor for her by the time of Zeta, and which is why she becomes obsessed with finding someone who'll give her unconditional love and support. It's what she thinks she needs to live a normal life; not unlike Char, frankly. The friendship Kamille and Fa offer is not enough, and she thinks that love will be what saves or fulfills her. Scirocco feigns that, and the illusion of it is enough for her to completely disregard friends and do anything to help him. She is physically an adult, but has a very childish view of the world due to her experience as a child soldier distorting her life so much. Amuro, Kamille, Uso etc. come out the better people despite the horrors of war at least partially due to having better support networks, but it doesn't work out that way for everyone. All of which is to say that I really don't think "adults are evil" means much, even just sticking to Tomino works. It's a pithy way to summarize them, along with "war is bad", but there's really a lot more at play and I doubt even Tomino thinks it's that simple, despite making jokes about it on occasion during interview if I recall. chiasaur11 posted:No Sasro, huh? How is the plot of a manga an indication of anime continuity? Does Miharu Zabi exist because she's noted as being the youngest Zabi in the setting notes? tsob fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Mar 3, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 17:19
|
|
|
Thanks for that short exposition on how children and adult are these super recent inventions. I thought about saying it but people are really reflexive about these kinds of things - "children are children, how could they be anything else?" Well, in the West, children were just tiny, stupid adults once upon a time. Nobody gave a poo poo about protecting their innocence because the idea of the innocent child is something we owe to the Romantics at the end of the 18th Century. Tomino channels this idea hard in 0079. It's a fascinating topic about how the most basic facts of our reality are like 100-200 years old at most. I also agree it isn't as simple as "war is bad" or "adults are bad." For one thing, a distinctive fact of UC Gundam that has always been stressed to me is that it isn't about "communication is the answer." A lot of other Gundams really lay on the pacifism shtick but Tomino is never blind to the fact that, as Solid Snake would say, "some people just need killing." Gihren was such a person, Char once he's lost all of his humanity is another. There is nothing un-righteous about wars against these people. The methods used might be questionable but the war itself is never presented as immoral. Gihren and Char started the conflict and pacfisim in the face of their aggression would, if anything, be the truly un-righteous act.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 17:47
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Thanks for that short exposition on how children and adult are these super recent inventions. I thought about saying it but people are really reflexive about these kinds of things - "children are children, how could they be anything else?" Well, in the West, children were just tiny, stupid adults once upon a time. Nobody gave a poo poo about protecting their innocence because the idea of the innocent child is something we owe to the Romantics at the end of the 18th Century. Tomino channels this idea hard in 0079. The association of red with manliness is another that always gets me, since pink was seen as the manly color until quite recently, while red was feminine. "Boys" being a recent invention is another quite odd one, since male children were treated as feminine in a lot of Western society/history until they reached about 6 or 7, if I recall, including wearing dresses etc. Which, from what I gather, was at least just partially just down to practicality, since it was easier to potty train a boy if he was wearing a dress. Also, thriftiness probably played a part too, since you only needed on type of clothes, which could be reused with any other younger children afterwards. NikkolasKing posted:I also agree it isn't as simple as "war is bad" or "adults are bad." For one thing, a distinctive fact of UC Gundam that has always been stressed to me is that it isn't about "communication is the answer." A lot of other Gundams really lay on the pacifism shtick but Tomino is never blind to the fact that, as Solid Snake would say, "some people just need killing." Gihren was such a person, Char once he's lost all of his humanity is another. There is nothing un-righteous about wars against these people. The methods used might be questionable but the war itself is never presented as immoral. Gihren and Char started the conflict and pacfisim in the face of their aggression would, if anything, be the truly un-righteous act. I don't think it's quite right to say the war is never presented as immoral, personally. I think it's presented as a failure that it happened, and certainly that there's lots of immoral poo poo that happens due to it, but I would agree that fighting back itself isn't presented as immoral in Tomino's shows. Ultimately, the way I always think of it is less "war is bad" and more "war is basically a game that rich/powerful people use to play out their desires, since it doesn't really touch them, at least initially and it's really just the pawns on both sides that end up getting poo poo on". There were lots of poor schmucks in both the Federation and Zeon that got shafted by the One Year War, while the leaders of both sides tended to be arrogant and socially removed dickbags shrugging off any consequences. The attitude of the Federation leadership in Jaburo to Zeon attacks being particularly telling, since they literally just shrug it off as another, inconsequential raid before going back to making pleasant small talk and then in other scenes talk about how the White Base, the ship that's forefront of the war, is an annoying thorn in their side. That isn't nearly as short and snappy though, so "war is bad" is a good summation regardless. I think it's also easier to maintain that view of Zeon on the original show, because Zeon in the original show are implied to be mostly conscripts, while everything else afterwards acts like they were made up of volunteers invested in the war. Which makes it harder to sympathize with the sheer breadth of warcrimes attributed to Zeon.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 18:14
|
|
|
tsob posted:The association of red with manliness is another that always gets me, since pink was seen as the manly color until quite recently, while red was feminine. "Boys" being a recent invention is another quite odd one, since male children were treated as feminine in a lot of Western society/history until they reached about 6 or 7, if I recall, including wearing dresses etc. Which, from what I gather, was at least just partially just down to practicality, since it was easier to potty train a boy if he was wearing a dress. Also, thriftiness probably played a part too, since you only needed on type of clothes, which could be reused with any other younger children afterwards. But hear me out here. What if they were adorable teenage girls who eat cake and throw Halloween parties?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 18:20
|
|
|
War is immoral and getting to a point where someone has to be put down is a failure of communication. At that point it is a necessary but still immoral duty to stop them from doing more harm to others. That's where things get hazy because the impact taking a life has varies on an individual level.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 18:34
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Not really. Iron Blooded Orphans is one of the Gundams that's actually about the kids being kids. It's less of a thing with the characters like Biscuit, Orga, Eugene, and Akihiro, since they're all close enough to adulthood that it's less obvious, but characters like Ride and Takaki are defined by their innocence. They aren't old enough to understand the choices they make, which is important to understanding the tragedies of the show. Don't be pedantic, of course I know it wouldn't be the exact same show with 100% the exact same characterization. Some characters' particulars would have to change somewhat if they weren't children. Ride would probably need to be adjusted more than anyone, but Takaki? Really? Takaki's arc was "jesus, I have a family I need to care for, I need to get off the suicide train". That's not necessarily coupled with childhood in any meaningful way. The point is that the main thrust of IBO is about classism. It's about how economic consolidation in the hands of the privileged few leaves everyone else hosed and broken and forced to scrabble to survive by doing horrible things because they have no other choice in the matter. The entire reason Kudelia goes to Earth in the first place is to negotiate for the right for Martians to control their own resources so that they can climb out of the yawning well of poverty that they're trapped in, because she understands that the root of Mars's woes isn't that they're being oppressed by Gjallarhorn(who doesn't really give much of a poo poo about Mars) or that there's child soldiers running around shooting at each other(those are a symptom, not a cause). That's why she is running the Admoss Company in IBO S2 - it's controlling the extraction of Mars's resources for the benefit of Martians for the first time. Her crusading for the sake of child soldiers is an add-on to her attempting to better the conditions of Martians in general, not the origin of her crusade. You can 100% write a very similar show about destitute young adults. I completely maintain that if you aged almost everyone in the cast up 5 years, shockingly little would need to change about the broad strokes of what's happening with most of them. Mika being a weird emotionally stunted murder gremlin who doesn't know anything but fighting and killing and is dangerously codependent on Orga doesn't need to change. Orga being an out-of-his-depth blustering gambler who is thrust into a leadership role by necessity and desperation and then has to maintain the charade or else it'll all fall apart doesn't need to change. Biscuit being the voice of reason who understands that even the best gambler eventually gets burned if they double down on every pot doesn't need to change. Kudelia being an idealistic dreamer who has to come to understand the people she's trying to help and how to convert her ideals into reality doesn't need to change. Akihiro being a hard-luck former slave who had his family torn apart and is struggling with a sense of guilt over that that leads him to try to create a new family of fellow survivors doesn't need to change.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 18:41
|
|
|
But have you considered that if mika was an adult who couldn't read him sitting in a makeshift classroom learning on a leapfrog would be a slightly more awkward scene that might need minor changes
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 19:06
|
|
|
This concept that the moment you turn 20 you're immediately part of The Older Generation and are personally responsible for all the failings of the world is weird Pretty sure the generational conflict themes still track just fine for a 25 year old
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 19:12
|
|
|
ninjewtsu posted:This concept that the moment you turn 20 you're immediately part of The Older Generation and are personally responsible for all the failings of the world is weird Exactly. A character or group of characters absolutely does not need to be currently going through puberty to be harmed by and be part of a struggle against an entrenched and ossified status quo that is loving them and theirs over. Making the protagonists in a story literally children does provide visual shorthand(you could tell Gundam X's story if Garrod and Tiffa were 20, but Garrod being a kid helps instantly contrast him with Jamil), but it's not a required ingredient. You don't get your "oppressor of the young" certification when you get your ID. Kanos fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Mar 3, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 19:33
|
|
|
You could probably do it just fine with anyone younger than the wrinkly old dudes holding political power. I bet you could make the same theme work for a 35 year old protagonist if you really wanted to. Actively getting screwed over by the older generation foisting problems onto you doesn't stop until you are the generation in power, and that absolutely does not occur at the precipice of adulthood
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 19:41
|
|
|
I want a gundam story about a dude in his 50s actually going through the struggle of trying to leave a better world behind for the younger generations. The stories about people in their 30s who are still getting poo poo on by people in their 70s being blamed for not making it easier on teenagers feels a little played out. people as old as mcgillis simultaneously being absurdly young for their position of power (due to being the winner of unprecedented power plays no one else in the same generation could hope to accomplish) while also representing the failure of old people to build a better world for the young makes it easier to have a charismatic villain, but if we're talking about thematics it kinda misses the mark on generational conflict doesn't it? I want Bernie Sanders as a giant robot pilot, tell me that wouldn't be a fantastic gundam show ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Mar 3, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 19:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 20:28 |
|
|
Unfortunately most people in Gundam don't live past 35. But a UC 35 is like a CE 60.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2022 19:54
|
|