nurmie posted:

This isn't the first time you're accusing posters in this thread of a pro-Russian bias, and personally I don't think these accusations are helpful.

Saint Kyivanka posted:

And I'm gonna stop the segue, but your bias is pretty evidence in the other Ukranian thread you post in...

Ciprian Maricon posted:

I don't think your comparisons to WW2 are applicable.

the popes toes posted:

shameful humans walk among us

https://twitter.com/AdamKinzinger/status/1499128664826523651

Jordan7hm posted:

Some Russians displaying extraordinary courage even just speaking publicly right now.

Majorian posted:

He lives in the UK; he's gonna be fine.

Sir John Falstaff posted:

Uh, I think there are a few examples of that not being fine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko

Ciprian Maricon posted:

I do not believe that a million Ukrainian veterans taking up rifles in place of their Army is an effective strategy and I don't think your comparisons to WW2 are applicable (maybe mine aren't either). I disagree with how this war is playing out compared to many people in this thread but it is not a matter of hating Ukraine and loving Russia or any bias.

Saint Kyivanka posted:

Personally I don't think it's helpful to have posters come in from other parts of the forums and make disingenuous comments. Posters should say what they mean and not hide their bias, then defend their views accordingly.

Cable Guy posted:

It's off season for tourists in Salisbury at the moment.

Varinn posted:

As opposed to a rereg/alt account? Come on man.

nurmie posted:

You never know when a bunch of GRU goons sports equipment salesmen will decide to visit the famous Salisbury cathedral to admire its tremendous spire again.

Saint Kyivanka posted:

I don't think that a million Ukrainian veterans taking up rifles in place of their Army is ideal either, but I also don't think Ukraine has a whole lot of options in terms of defending itself otherwise. Sometimes you take the help where you can get it.

If you think they should give up and surrender, than say so, because besides defending themselves, that's about the only option they otherwise have. And Putin appears likely to want to try and divide the country up based upon what we saw come out of Belarus and what has been seemingly-accurate intelligence.

Saint Kyivanka posted:

Find that ambulance video to complain about yet?

ronya posted:

I would respect the "you're facing impossible odds you should just give up and save your people's lives by compromising now" takes more if I saw it applied consistently when it comes to anti-imperialist resistances that are popular in the forum.

Baronjutter posted:

I had a friend who was crew on some billionaires yacht. The dude would only ever be on his yacht like maybe a couple weeks a year, at best. Otherwise it and the crew of about a dozen people would be paid, full time, to sail around the world to essentially be on-hand if this dude wanted to use the yacht for entertaining. So they'd be in Florida and get the word that he was heading to Italy in a few weeks so fuel and provision up and set sail. They'd reach italy and be given a budget of like 10k to buy the finest food and drink and be ready to host lavish parties. The next day it would turn out their owner in fact changed his mind about Italy and went to Paris instead and will be heading to his condo in NYC after so get back over the atlantic to meet him there.

The crew was very well paid and they basically just got to party on this boat while drinking and eating the finest food and doing mountains of coke. But the absolute insane amount of waste and wealth to so casually be able to afford having such a vessel and crew on full time standby is just unbelievable.

Ciprian Maricon posted:

I would like to see the conflict end sooner rather than later (and im sure you do too), if that means Ukraine giving Putin enough concessions that he can return home with the ability to lie about meeting his incredible undefined and crazy goals, that would seem better to me than a continued bloody conflict. Ultimately though its not up to me and not up to Ukraine entirely either, if Putin is really unwilling to accept concessions and wants to stick to his insane demands, I don't know if those are things Ukraine could even realistically do.

I post critically in this and other threads not because I dislike Ukraine or love Russia, but because this is a forum filled with a lot of westerners and the perception of this war, in my opinion, in this thread and in much of our media has an unrealistic and uncritical look at the war and I think that has problems not only for the discourse in this thread but wider implications about how we might respond to the conflict.

Saint Kyivanka posted:

Find that ambulance video to complain about yet?

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Onto your broader accusation, however - I think it’s senseless to treat every single Russian conscript as an inhumane monster, even if they’re waging war in Ukraine. Individual mutiny could easily have severe consequences for them and their family.

KittyEmpress posted:

Herstory Begins Now posted:

Would help if that seemed to even remotely square up with what the Ukranian people appear to want

Ciprian Maricon posted:

I would like to see the conflict end sooner rather than later (and im sure you do too), if that means Ukraine giving Putin enough concessions that he can return home with the ability to lie about meeting his incredible undefined and crazy goals, that would seem better to me than a continued bloody conflict. Ultimately though its not up to me and not up to Ukraine entirely either, if Putin is really unwilling to accept concessions and wants to stick to his insane demands, I don't know if those are things Ukraine could even realistically do.

I post critically in this and other threads not because I dislike Ukraine or love Russia, but because this is a forum filled with a lot of westerners and the perception of this war, in my opinion, in this thread and in much of our media there is an unrealistic and uncritical look at the war and I think that has problems not only for the discourse in this thread but wider implications about how we might respond to the conflict.

Varinn posted:

Do you......understand what he was talking about? This 'joke' doesn't make sense. I'm not sure you know what was being referenced.

Varinn posted:

I just read the thread and post when there's something I disagree with or think is worth clarifying/talking about with someone.

Comstar posted:

No.


Every single Russian solider in Ukraine at this minute should either stop doing what they are doing, or surrender themselves to the nearest local Ukrainian authorities. There are 5 year old's arrested and in jail and going to be made orphans because they held up a Peace sign in Moscow. There are 10's of Russian soldiers who have already surrendered. There are 100's of innocents who are going to be killed in the next day. There are 1 million refugee's right now internal and external and NOT ONE RUSSIAN SOLIDER CAN CLAIM THEY WERE JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS.

This war is unprovoked, unjustified and illegal. Do not attempt to defend this.

So NO, it is not senseless to treat every single Russian conscript as an inhumane monster. Because even if they have not committed a crime yet, it is impossible for them to not commit a crime by their very presence in Ukraine. They WILL have to something, at some point, that will harm or murder innocents. Unless they stand down or refuse an order to do so, they will have to do something to further the aims of this war.

No one who thinks otherwise should be in a position to moderate or condemn any discussion in this thread, this board, or this forum.


Comrade.

Saint Kyivanka posted:

Yeah, I did. And I agree with his sentiment, especially having read your C-spam posts and how you selectively respond in this thread. If you want Ukrainian to be a puppet state of Russia, just say so. Don't couch it in concern trolling and what about-ism.

Varinn posted:

Well I assume they'd like people to stop dying, and to be safe, but I suppose you're right, none of us can be sure. I think its also pretty safe to say that what they want isn't to all die, either. They're fighting to protect their country. Ideally they'd win, and everything would be returned to them, this would be the best outcome!

but like, realistically, I feel like this ends with some sort of grim diplomatic compromise. what that looks like I don't know, and whatever they have to sacrifice for peace will be too much, but I don't think its horrible, or 'supporting russia' to acknowledge that its a lovely possibility.

Saint Kyivanka posted:

Regarding the perception in the thread, I think people confuse the temporary respite of seeing Ukrainian victories and pushback, with posters' belief that Ukraine can win this war. I don't think anyone truly thinks that Ukraine can hold out for that much longer or defeat Russia? It seems more that as updates are provided that s how Ukraine having some mild success, it's that much more chance/hope that Russia may actually, honestly consider a ceasefire. Is it likely? No. But it makes for a greater argument that any possible regime change that Moscow pushes for, isn't desired by the populace.

kaaj posted:

A Russian friend told me that

> (Russian) Government promised to provide tax break for 3 years for IT companies, not to call for army service IT specialists and mortgage benefits for them.

It made us wonder how many IT specialists left / will leave the country. Anybody who has a chance of leaving and would decide to stay would really be making a massive gamble.

Varinn posted:

Well I assume they'd like people to stop dying, and to be safe, but I suppose you're right, none of us can be sure. I think its also pretty safe to say that what they want isn't to all die, either. They're fighting to protect their country. Ideally they'd win, and everything would be returned to them, this would be the best outcome!

but like, realistically, I feel like this ends with some sort of grim diplomatic compromise. what that looks like I don't know, and whatever they have to sacrifice for peace will be too much, but I don't think its horrible, or 'supporting russia' to acknowledge that its a lovely possibility.

KittyEmpress posted:

<snip>

Herstory Begins Now posted:

You're probably right that this only ends through some diplomatic compromise. Russian messaging (both publicly and more indirectly) has created a situation where there's effectively zero incentive for most Ukranians to ever stop fighting. On Russian social media you'll see everyone fighting for Ukraine denounced as nazis/freikorps/vulkssturm and the explicit plan, according to Russia, is to fully purge Ukraine of Nazis. This does not leave any offramp. Even some guy who just wants his neighborhood defended is branded as vulkssturm. Idk what the solution is ultimately, but as it stands there's zero way most ukranians who are currently fighting or planning to fight to see giving in as something that doesn't just lead to Russia cleansing them [russia's word, not mine] basically to the last man or woman.

Varinn posted:

Genuinely, do you have a source for that last bit? I don't think I've seen Russia saying they're going to ethnically cleanse the entire country. If anything, their initial approach to the war seemed counter to that. I remember seeing the stories about them saying they were going to root out 'democratic elements' or whatever, which again still extremely bad, but seemed to me more like they were going to do the thing of purging government officials and notable nationalists.

but like, I think executions and repression of dissidents is very different from active genocide. they're both evil but like, our reactions to them as international entities would be very different.

Comstar posted:

There's 40 million people (well, less 1 million refugees now, and another 3-13 who are going to leave in the next 6 months if it keeps going that long) vs 200,000 Russian troops. The USA at the height of it's power, could not control Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam either, for the same reasons. Any "regime" they put in power will be a puppet, and a puppet it will collapse when the hand controlling it is taken away. Much like when the USSR lost all of Eastern Europe.

And Ukraine is getting 100's of modern, top of the line weapons from the their open west border. While Russia's entire economy will collapse in less than 3 months. Russia will run out tanks,. before Ukraine runs out of Javelins.


Russia cannot win now. Like nearly every other insurgency vs an imperial power in the last 100 years, they can only delay their defeat.

nurmie posted:

Yep this tracks, and quite consistent with the mood across the Baltics and the wider Eastern Europe too, from what I'm gathering - there's a certain understanding that the message from the Russian state is you're next. Hence the severity of sanctions and all the weapon deliveries and that entire foreign legion thing.

I am quite, uh, I don't know, disappointed, I guess? by the prevailing "plucky Ukraine, David vs Goliah, haha look at these silly Russians stuck in mud lol" narrative that's so prevalent in Western media. For one, I don't think it does a sufficiently-good job at presenting the unfortunate reality of just how bad things are going for the Ukrainian military (for all their much-reposted tactical victories), and it kinda downplays the severity and the ramifications of these events (hence all the idiot checkmarks calling for the no-fly zone). This is only going to get worse, and no amount of feel-good stories will turn it around.

Saint Kyivanka posted:

I don't think that a million Ukrainian veterans taking up rifles in place of their Army is ideal either, but I also don't think Ukraine has a whole lot of options in terms of defending itself otherwise. Sometimes you take the help where you can get it.

If you think they should give up and surrender, than say so, because besides defending themselves, that's about the only option they otherwise have. And Putin appears likely to want to try and divide the country up based upon what we saw come out of Belarus and what has been seemingly-accurate intelligence.

So they're in a war for the country's very existence that, short of outside direct military intervention, they are likely going to lose. And the country of Ukraine as we all currently know it, is going to cease to exist because of a power-hungry piece of poo poo in Moscow.

Edit: And a lot of people seem to be ok with that, and just saying "Goodbye Ukraine", which is probably what will happen in the next few weeks/months.

At the same time, I want to see Russia pay for this, and I want to see them pay for it long and hard for a very long time.

hump day bitches! posted:

I thought the human wave stuff was nazi propaganda ?

Vorenus posted:

I can't speak for the Ukrainian people, but it seems like many of them would rather die fighting/resisting than submit to Putin and live under a despot while hoping their names aren't on any of his lists. Have you considered going to Ukraine to convince them of the benefits of submission to the Motherland in person?