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Deus Ex Deus Ex: Human Revolution 
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Mar 6, 2022 12:22
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But what of Deus Ex The Fall
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Mar 6, 2022 12:23
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Panzeh posted:I kinda felt the video was extremely rosy to the original DX in a weird way- like, Hbomb can talk about how it isn't an FPS all he wants, but if you're a bionically augmented super agent and even your starting pistol has a spread that would make even a novice shooter blush, i think it's not an unreasonable choice to actually, you know, make the guns hit where you aim with them. It's not some betrayal. When a player has FPS controls, IMO, it's not unreasonable to, y'know, expect your weapons to have some level of accuracy. But, you know, plenty of FPS games actually have, y'know, imperfect accuracy and bullet spread. Also, IMO, you know, having a first person perspective and also guns doesn't mean the game should be judged as an FPS when it very clearly isn't. You can't have your cake and eat it - it's not an FPS because it doesn't try to be one, and if it did have more 'accurate' or whatever gunplay, it would totally change the feel of the game. If you learned in the first level that you could pistol snipe every enemy in the head from a distance with zero skill then you wouldn't be encouraged to meaningfully engage with all of the other systems in the game for dealing with or avoiding conflict (neverminding the fact that if you got the laser dot you actually could do this). I managed to deal with it when I was 12 years old and was playing counterstrike and unreal tournament and half life and poo poo - all first person games with guns, all totally different kinds of game. The steeper difficulty curve with shooting in Deus Ex was probably what set me off on my love of sneakthief style gameplay in immersive sims, and also meant that I felt both a tangible sense of progression when I levelled up my skills and aiming became noticeably easier, and also gave me a lot more of a sense of accomplishment when I used the sniper at lower levels and still overcame the twitchy aiming to land a headshot.
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Mar 6, 2022 12:42
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You can make headshots require an upgrade. You can require upgrades before 1-shots are possible. You can make an upgrade be required to even use a gun. But if you give a gun to a player to shoot in first person perspective then the bullets need to go very close to where they aimed it or it will feel like garbage. What I think Hbomberguy is missing, and I've seen the argument in another video essay so he's not alone, is that it doesn't matter what your intentions are as a designer, if you give the player a gun and first person perspective then you are, in part, an FPS and a lot of people will judge you accordingly. Early first person RPGs wanted to be RPGs first but it doesn't work in a first person action game unless you want to be niche. There are plenty of other ways to realize the RPG aspect of the game. Ones that affect the feeling of combat is the worst place to do it. Most/all of us here played Deus Ex in spite of the low skill gun feel, but I think "in spite of" is doing a lot of the lifting there.
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Mar 6, 2022 13:08
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Personally if I shoot a person in the head but the game tells me I needed to spend some points to activate headshots that is way less intuitive than 'your aim sucks but if you do manage to hit something it'll do what you expect'
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Mar 6, 2022 13:21
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It's not about intuitive it's about feel. And you can make headshots do 1.1x damage at default or something. Point I'm making is that players hate missing shots they themselves earned with their aiming skill to the point that it's the worst way to simulate low skill with a weapon. It'd be like a board game giving me a dexterity task to hit something by flicking a disc at it and then also having to roll the dice to see if I hit it. Either it's a dice roll or its a player skill check; doing both sucks. VATS in the 3D Fallout games is a pretty good illustration. It feels fine to miss there because it's not using your skill as a player. But if they did the same outside of VATS I very much doubt the series would be as big as it is. Phigs fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Mar 6, 2022 |
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Mar 6, 2022 13:26
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Phigs posted:It's not about intuitive it's about feel. And you can make headshots do 1.1x damage at default or something. Point I'm making is that players hate missing shots they themselves earned with their aiming skill to the point that it's the worst way to simulate low skill with a weapon. Yeah, if you're doing something like, say, a Wizardry game, where it is theoretically first person, but your movement is in turns and the combat is in turns, having miss chances is fine- that's the abstraction of the game. If you're in Morrowind, where the movement is a real-time 3d first-person game, the attack button with an enemy in range shouldn't come down to a dice roll when i go for melee. Watching a sword hit that should go in whiff because we need to be faithful to RPG mechanics in a first-person real time game is awful-feeling. And, how "immersive" is the sim when your cyber-augmented agent gets sent in to deal with a terrorist attack but shoots an assault rifle worse than someone with Parkinson's. Don't get me wrong- it's a great conceit for a person who moves like an FPS character in the Unreal Tournament engine.. but you have to go all the way with it.
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Mar 6, 2022 13:37
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I wonder if part of it is the fact that there's no visual reflection of the "being bad at aiming" part of it, other than the huge crosshair. I wonder if it would feel better if you could see the gun waving about, and had a small crosshair which tracked its actual point of aim, so it felt like the inaccuracy was a reflection of the character's skill with the weapon rather than just "this gun fires somewhere in a 45-degree cone around its barrel" And as you increased the skill, obviously the wavering would decrease... IDK, it might not make a difference, but I think it might have a less arbitrary feel to it.
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Mar 6, 2022 13:42
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The_White_Crane posted:I wonder if part of it is the fact that there's no visual reflection of the "being bad at aiming" part of it, other than the huge crosshair. I think you'd end up with the other parts of the artifice of the first person shooter character coming to the fore- ok, my gun shakes like crazy, but why do i change direction and move so smoothly without much momentum? Why can i just keep on jumping? Why is crouch walking not exhausting but jogging is? FPS controls are a design choice, you can't just get out of it by saying 'but we're an RPG'. I don't want to harp too much on this one thing. A lot of it's on point- his larger point about it, that given the production process, their only option to work within that framework was to make ammunition somewhat scarce, and that came with costs. A game that could have been re-scoped, possibly shortened, could have made, say, going on a Terminator rampage through the DPD more meaningful, but they were where they were, and they didn't want to have any main content get skipped because they were concerned about their game length, so you get not much consequence to anything. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Mar 6, 2022 |
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Mar 6, 2022 13:46
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Rainbow Six Siege will send your bullets in a 90 degree cone if you're not ADSing. It's a gameplay mechanic. "It feels bad because you wanna shoot the center of the screen. But the bullets don't go there! They should fix it." No, then certain types of characters are irrelevant and others overpowered. In Deus Ex the guns shoot ok on trained, minimal spread on advanced, laser precision on master. Additionally you have mods that eliminate any bullet spread. The argument that JC denton is a trained agent and must shoot gun good, is bad and boring. Why can't he be a notoriously bad shot hacker? Why can't he be a melee weapon specialist? The difference between Morrowind and OG Deus Ex is the bullets will still oneshot a dude, in Morrowind the sword clearly goes through but somehow misses. Also if you shoot someone from close range, you don't miss either. Deus Ex is also built around different ways of dealing with your enemies, Morrowind isn't. You gotta kill to level up. Plenty of current FPS games actively hamper your "skill as a player" with bullet spread with types of guns, made up rules where shotguns don't work further than 3 meters, etc. Clicking heads is trivial. It also isn't the point of Deus Ex, but is possible and easy to achieve almost immediately. DX shooting bad always was a weak argument and it's being repeated as some obvious truth for some reason. There are countless current examples in explicitly first person shooters where similar obstacles to your clicking heads are in place.
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Mar 6, 2022 14:05
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I actually didn't mind the HR hacking minigame  SCheeseman posted:But what of Deus Ex The Fall I enjoyed that too, although mostly because it was more Deus Ex. Best part was when I actually fell through the floor of a level - accurate title, right?
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Mar 6, 2022 14:17
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Vic posted:Plenty of current FPS games actively hamper your "skill as a player" with bullet spread with types of guns, made up rules where shotguns don't work further than 3 meters, etc. Clicking heads is trivial. It also isn't the point of Deus Ex, but is possible and easy to achieve almost immediately. DX shooting bad always was a weak argument and it's being repeated as some obvious truth for some reason. There are countless current examples in explicitly first person shooters where similar obstacles to your clicking heads are in place. Also if you are patient, crouched and don't get spotted you can get headshots on 0 skill points, you just have to wait for the crosshair to get as small as possible
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Mar 6, 2022 14:21
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One of my playthroughs of deus ex I enabled cheats and bound "tantalus" to z and "opensesame" to x, turning Denton into more of a mad god than jesus christ allegory.
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Mar 6, 2022 16:26
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MysticalMachineGun posted:I actually didn't mind the HR hacking minigame If that review talks bad about the hacking then I will have nothing to do with it. I hacked everything, even stuff I had the codes for, because it was so much fun to do.
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Mar 6, 2022 16:32
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maybe dx could've started with the pistol "trained" level of accuracy at the "untrained" level and adjusted how much better you get between trained and advanced, but the game clearly lays out what your accuracy will be like with your dynamic crosshair and like, halfway through liberty Island you should know whether you need to reroll to put more points in pistol if that's gonna be your focus
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Mar 6, 2022 17:21
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Panzeh posted:I kinda felt the video was extremely rosy to the original DX in a weird way- like, Hbomb can talk about how it isn't an FPS all he wants, but if you're a bionically augmented super agent and even your starting pistol has a spread that would make even a novice shooter blush, i think it's not an unreasonable choice to actually, you know, make the guns hit where you aim with them. It's not some betrayal. When a player has FPS controls, IMO, it's not unreasonable to, y'know, expect your weapons to have some level of accuracy. It is amusing that MJ-12 spent a literal 50 billion dollars on JC but gave him no firearms training "I must apologize for JC. You see, we trained him wrong. As a joke" "If you've got an rear end i'll prod it!" Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Mar 6, 2022 |
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Mar 6, 2022 19:46
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Momomo posted:If that review talks bad about the hacking then I will have nothing to do with it. I hacked everything, even stuff I had the codes for, because it was so much fun to do. doing this from memory but: it doesn't really talk about how the minigame itself is bad, but that the way it was applied is bad: you do it hundreds of times, all important ones are made so easy you need 0 skill, it's not really tense because you can't get shot or spotted while hacking (i think, not super sure about this one), etc. there are some other minor complaints but i agree. the narrator mentions a hacking minigame he actually really likes but that it's still bad because of the problems inherent to hacking minigames
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Mar 6, 2022 19:58
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Basic premise was if you want to play a hacking minigame you could always hit up newgrounds (or your phone). Which is something I've always said. I want to play the game I'm playing, I don't want it interrupted by another game. If I want to play that other game I'll go play that other game. I love those Hexcells type games but I'd still hate a hacking minigame that uses those mechanics. I like to play Hexcells when I'm in the mood to play it, not when my RPG decides it wants to make me play it to open a door. It's also like the discussion we're having on the shooting. If my character is a hacker, why do I have to do some player skill check? Just let my character do their thing. Original Deus Ex was so good for just having you click the multitool or lockpick or hacking button.
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Mar 6, 2022 20:59
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Ever hacking mini-game I've ever played has never achieved the abstraction of making me feel like I'm a crafty hacker man entering the matrix, now I'm suddenly playing a baby game or a newspaper word scramble in the middle of another game.
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Mar 6, 2022 21:52
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moot the hopple posted:Ever hacking mini-game I've ever played has never achieved the abstraction of making me feel like I'm a crafty hacker man entering the matrix, now I'm suddenly playing a baby game or a newspaper word scramble in the middle of another game. Actual hacking is pretty mundane and amounts to running some scripts tapping around for vulnerabilities. Abstracting it would pretty much be what HR/MD did. Oblivion/Skyrim abstracted lockpicking pretty well too. There's no point to abstracting it though, because you're abstracting "having knowledge" into pressing buttons.
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Mar 7, 2022 00:16
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I have *very* strong opinions about hacking minigames, and the HR/MK ones stand out as... well, outstanding. -Game should have no obvious/gimmie moves -Realtime is a plus -Skill-based for the player, even if the skill floor & ceiling are low -As above, rewards for being good -In-game ways of getting ahead or having a handicap So on so forth, I had a long list some time ago. Basically, I was angry that the SS2 minigame was rubbish and nothing good had been done since Paradriod of all loving things.
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Mar 7, 2022 00:22
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Been playing Invisible War and I really wish that there was a mod like in Thief Deadly Shadows where you could remove some of the loadings between zones. It loads almost instantly but it makes everything feel so small. Also this is just a personal thing of mine but I really hate the aesthetic that this and Thief 3 have with the blue-ish/purple-ish lighting tint they have going on everywhere.
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Mar 7, 2022 01:15
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Panzeh posted:I kinda felt the video was extremely rosy to the original DX in a weird way- like, Hbomb can talk about how it isn't an FPS all he wants, but if you're a bionically augmented super agent and even your starting pistol has a spread that would make even a novice shooter blush Only if you've never been properly trained in it's operation. moot the hopple posted:Ever hacking mini-game I've ever played has never achieved the abstraction of making me feel like I'm a crafty hacker man entering the matrix, now I'm suddenly playing a baby game or a newspaper word scramble in the middle of another game. the only good hacking minigame is EYE Vic posted:I learned to not give a poo poo, if the game is good, and HR is good, I'll have a great time with it. But when I first played it I was incredibly disappointed. I was imagining Deus Ex with a bigger budget therefore more complex, detailed and polished. There is no fuckin way you can say that after someone points out the vents to you.
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Mar 7, 2022 04:21
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The elephant in the room when talking about hacking in Deus Ex is the Breach mode in DX:MD and its brief inclusions in the main story/DLC, which I forgot existed until now. After 3 games (+90% of MD's main game) of fairly "realistic" and grounded feeling hacking, suddenly you are hacking certain systems by jacking into a full-on 3D Cyberspace world and shooting your virtual cyber gun at cyber people in the sort of thing that was already a dated joke when the original Deus Ex came out. I guess its inclusion in the game at all was likely a publisher mandate from Square Enix management to include lootboxes and other horrible modern games design bullshit and we should be thankful it didn't affect the main game very much but I like how everyone is discussing the "realism" and such of hacking in DX and nobody brought up that you hack the mainframe by jacking into 3D Cyber World in a game released in 2016.
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Mar 7, 2022 06:26
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idk feels prescient with people embedding full linux VMs inside their VR Chat avatars
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Mar 7, 2022 08:38
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Personally I wish more games gave you the opportunity of using some of the most advanced hardware or weaponry right from the get go; especially if you can’t use it but give it a play with. Again comes to player choice, to expirement, strategize and plan, whilst having access to the toys. The alternative in modern games is a very linear, piece by piece “and now you are learning this weapons/technique… it’s 3x more powerful than the last one your learnt!” So it becomes a showroom for game mechanics fed piecemeal rather than an organic choice to be made by the player based on their preferences.
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Mar 7, 2022 09:02
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Momomo posted:If that review talks bad about the hacking then I will have nothing to do with it. I hacked everything, even stuff I had the codes for, because it was so much fun to do. I spent ages going around the police station in the early part of HR, purely because I enjoyed the hacking mini-game and the place was choc-full of terminals. I think the 'Remote Hacking' aug was one of my favourites for MD: with Jensen stretching out his hand it felt very Neo-like, and I remember it having a lot of utility.
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Mar 7, 2022 11:11
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Vic posted:Actual hacking is pretty mundane and amounts to running some scripts tapping around for vulnerabilities. Abstracting it would pretty much be what HR/MD did. Oblivion/Skyrim abstracted lockpicking pretty well too. I would unironically love a more realistic hacking system where it's based around acquiring scripts that exploit vulnerabilities for all the various security system brands and versions in the game. So you'd be researching what kind of security a place is likely to have and then trying to track down the scripts that work for that software. Oh but this place has upgraded so it's no longer vulnerable to your old script so you gotta get a new one. Your script supplier has some new scripts in but you can't/don't want to buy them all so you gotta pick based on what kind of systems you want to hack into most. I think that would be cool. Maybe even a service you can call into and they'll hack a system for you for cheaper than a script but it's per hack. So many possibilities.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:28
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Phigs posted:I would unironically love a more realistic hacking system where it's based around acquiring scripts that exploit vulnerabilities for all the various security system brands and versions in the game. So you'd be researching what kind of security a place is likely to have and then trying to track down the scripts that work for that software. Oh but this place has upgraded so it's no longer vulnerable to your old script so you gotta get a new one. Your script supplier has some new scripts in but you can't/don't want to buy them all so you gotta pick based on what kind of systems you want to hack into most. Not gonna lie that sounds pretty awesome. Would tie in nicely with you reading everyone's emails.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:44
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I finished up playing Invisible War and have started playing Human Revolution DC. I watched like 30 minutes of hbomberguy's video but I disagree with his take on how the game starts. If you're playing Deus Ex 1 for the first time you are probably going to start up with the tutorial proper since you don't really know how the game works (at least that's what I did) so I'd say the game doesn't really really start at Liberty Island (I'd be curious to know if someone just went straight to the New Game Option though). But the issue is that the tutorial in Deus Ex is really boring and honestly almost made me wanna stop playing it when I first tried it out, whereas in HR the tutorial is much better integrated with the prologue. Sure you have some forced walk-and-chat but it lasts like... a minute and then you start the tutorial proper (and the prompts are optional even, with really short and concise videos) which also serves to tie the story together in a way so you know what's going on pretty quickly. Perhaps the ideal solution would be a mix of both where you start at a level like Liberty Island but with optional concise tutorial prompts or the like.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:01
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I haven't played the original Deus Ex in quite a while, and used to just stick with Shifter or Biomod when I played. Are one of those still the best option or is something like GMDX gonna be better? Revision doesn't really interest me as I think the level design tends to be something I want to mostly stay the same.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:50
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GMDX helps fix the gunplay enormously. I’d just blanket recommend it to anyone first time through or otherwise. It does prevent you from just using the Dragon’s Tooth to break down all doors towards the end of the game. Something I got in the habit of relying upon.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:59
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Gaius Marius posted:Consider before watching, one could watch a Three and a half hour nothing of a video, or one could just play Deus Ex for three hours With modern technology, you can do both at the same time! I balked at watching a 3.5 hour long video of a dude talking about a video game, but I skipped to a random part, found it interesting, and then watched the whole thing in the background, and then I watched the 1.5 hour long New Vegas video. He does his research well, and I would not have seen those behind-the-scenes videos were it not for his video. The video did remind me how much I disliked the ammo scarcity in DX:HR and in games in general where it doesn't fit with the setting. The video explains that the devs did this so that players would have to use stealth and not just run-and-gun through the levels. But I was going to be stealthy anyway and don't care if other players go for a more straight-forward action-FPS experience, and I really did not like ending a long gunfight where the enemy was spraying bullets everywhere just to discover I took them all down while they were on their last 1-3 bullets.
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Mar 7, 2022 22:28
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Yeah, his videos are always super long, but always worth watching imo (though I usually don't do it in one sitting). You wouldn't know it from the length, but they really are well-edited and dense, I imagine his first drafts are even more ridiculous. I think this one might be his longest one yet and I'll be honest I'm only halfway through it even though I started it the day he dropped it, but it's been no exception so far I don't know if he was already famous before AOC called in to his 24-hour donkey kong 64 charity stream (probably, otherwise why would she have done that), but I would say that is probably where i first became aware of him
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Mar 7, 2022 23:10
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He is/was a goon so a bunch of us knew about him through that.
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Mar 7, 2022 23:13
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Big Scary Owl posted:I finished up playing Invisible War and have started playing Human Revolution DC. I watched like 30 minutes of hbomberguy's video but I disagree with his take on how the game starts. If you're playing Deus Ex 1 for the first time you are probably going to start up with the tutorial proper since you don't really know how the game works (at least that's what I did) so I'd say the game doesn't really really start at Liberty Island (I'd be curious to know if someone just went straight to the New Game Option though). But the issue is that the tutorial in Deus Ex is really boring and honestly almost made me wanna stop playing it when I first tried it out, whereas in HR the tutorial is much better integrated with the prologue. Sure you have some forced walk-and-chat but it lasts like... a minute and then you start the tutorial proper (and the prompts are optional even, with really short and concise videos) which also serves to tie the story together in a way so you know what's going on pretty quickly. Perhaps the ideal solution would be a mix of both where you start at a level like Liberty Island but with optional concise tutorial prompts or the like. i definitely did not play the tutorial first lol come to think of it, i didn't play the tutorial for half-life first either, which was also a separate selectable
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Mar 8, 2022 00:31
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Phigs posted:He is/was a goon so a bunch of us knew about him through that. Lol I'd honestly forgotten about that, even though I'm sure I must have been posting at the same time as him.
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Mar 8, 2022 00:47
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Hbomberguy posted:I beat Deus Ex for the first time last night. The decade I spent putting off playing it has been wasted time. 
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Mar 8, 2022 04:50
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I play the tutorial if I haven't played Deus Ex for a long time - Jaime's voice acting's pretty great so it carries it
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Mar 8, 2022 05:13
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| # ? Jun 4, 2024 04:43 |
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Vic posted:Clicking heads is trivial. It also isn't the point of Deus Ex, but is possible and easy to achieve almost immediately. Yeah Deus Ex is never really checking your twitch skills so if a shot misses its not like it was some quick scope thing where the player feels cheated. Also the crosshair does shrink if you wait still, so really its not the JC is a complete incompetent at untrained- he just can't snapshot and can't run and gun. Which in real life is actually pretty hard, its not completely out of credibility that an agent whose main tool is stealth might take his sweet time lining up a shot. massive spider fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Mar 9, 2022 |
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Mar 9, 2022 23:13
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