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Bobby Deluxe posted:Achievent stats put it at somewhere between 3% (PSN) to 7% (Steam) of players who have completed last wish, though there's obviously the fact that it currently awards no powerfuls or lore so there's no real reason for f2p players to attempt it. Like I said before, that same resource shows that 21% of tracked players have beat the Taken King Campaign, so campaign mode = raids in popularity, by this metric Achievement trackers use way too high a denominator to give any accurate data. Per Warmind, we've got close to that many people playing raids right this very moment  And over the course of the day it was certainly much, much higher. Note that Crucible was only 8% of active population, but over the course of the whole day, 63% of players engaged with it! Wouldn't be crazy if the 16% of currently-raiding-players suggested that many more raided at some point over the day.  Everyone is going to view how they personally play Destiny as the average, normal way to play, so of course I have my bias here as a Crucible-playing, Raid-clearing Conqueror, but all signs point to active players (aka Bungie's customers) relying on outside resources and playing non-matchmade activities
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Mar 8, 2022 18:07
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:I gotta say I don’t think I’ve ever seen this happen, but it could also be it goes right over my head because I’ve used dim for years.
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Mar 8, 2022 18:08
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Man, I would've guessed that the venn diagram of people who prep for a new expansion, watch Destiny youtubers, and use DIM is a perfect circle. Maybe they were trying to pull people away from Ishtar and the official companion app?
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Mar 8, 2022 18:10
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:I gotta say I don’t think I’ve ever seen this happen, but it could also be it goes right over my head because I’ve used dim for years. https://twitter.com/thisisdim/status/1489056368996896770?s=21 DIM themselves only estimate 25% of the player base use their manager.
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Mar 8, 2022 18:10
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:I gotta say I don’t think I’ve ever seen this happen, but it could also be it goes right over my head because I’ve used dim for years. I have never touched DIM (and of course now that I do it's down for maintenace). Probably helped by never watching a destiny video. I have only played D2 for around 300 hours though, I'm pretty casual.
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Mar 8, 2022 18:11
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:People who don't raid don't stick around as long! I'm making a huge assumption there that it's the the complexity of the mechanics / difficulty that causes them to leave, but I don't think that's unreasonable as an asumption. life_source posted:they couldn't even if they wanted to I've mentioned my wife is currently starting playing and honestly she's having a great time just doing bounties. I keep trying to get her to do the campaigns but honestly because it's all new, the strikes and patrols seem to be the thing that hits the right balance for her right now. It's really interesting to me as a veteran with terminal pinnacle brain.
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Mar 8, 2022 18:12
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Right, but i'd argue that's a failing from Bungie, if players who are more comfortable with casual content are getting up to a certain point and then bouncing instead of having rolling endgame content that they can do. For sure, that's reasonable, but I would guess that it's the "no matchmaking" that filters Raids from being a 100% Participation activity (everyone who plays does a Raid). The complexity of mechanics is probably why Raids aren't a 100% Completion activity (everyone who starts a Raid finishes the Raid, like Strikes) And that's a good point that's it's a failing from Bungie. They are notoriously uninterested in catering to solo players
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Mar 8, 2022 18:16
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Iirc like, 15 percent ish of people who had a trophy for entering the dreaming city had the trophy for last wish. Wish isn't the easiest raid but that's still pretty small, and entering the city is one of the better filters you can have for "booting up the game once".
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Mar 8, 2022 18:22
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There are lots of very difficult/complex solo activities. The barrier is LITERALLY “do I have 5 friends who all play Destiny? Do they Raid?” if the answer to either of those is no, then it becomes: “How do I find a clan” “How do I make friends” “Can I handle sitting in vent with 5 strangers for 2-4 hours in an increasingly complicated and/or frustrated environment” I’m not trying to sound ableist here at all so apologies but f it comes off that way, but “being social” is a complete non issue for some, as effortless and mindless as washing one’s hands. For others, perhaps for the kind of person who wants to spend hours in their imaginary spaceman game playing by themselves with ghosts on the moon, 5 people might be the largest group dynamic that person LITERALLY EVER forces themselves to experience. I’m the former, I would hang out in vent or discord all day just vibing with homies, even if our activities were chill and didn’t need coms. DeathBurger420 isn’t just my clan mate, he’s my homie and we’re bros. But Destiny 2 is probably made up of the latter, people for whom social gaming is not easy and requires significant mental and emotional resources, and for those people the hard part of raiding is having to talk and listen and communicate and apologize and explain, not “don’t stand in it OK NOW STAND IN IT” puzzle mechanics imweasel09 posted:Iirc like, 15 percent ish of people who had a trophy for entering the dreaming city had the trophy for last wish. Wish isn't the easiest raid but that's still pretty small, and entering the city is one of the better filters you can have for "booting up the game once". Do you get the achievements if someone skips you to Riven with the Wish Wall?
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Mar 8, 2022 18:23
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:For sure, that's reasonable, but I would guess that it's the "no matchmaking" that filters Raids from being a 100% Participation activity (everyone who plays does a Raid). The complexity of mechanics is probably why Raids aren't a 100% Completion activity (everyone who starts a Raid finishes the Raid, like Strikes) Pretty much. I did serious raiding in everquest, I did it in Wow. I'm old and tired and just want to peg cabal in their stupid fat faces. Make a pickup difficulty version of the raid with rare drops and I'd run it. Using Light.gg did get me to use better guns at least. Before that I pretty much would only run he medium nightfalls with Ticcu's Also prior to witch queen I thought Power level drops were based on what you were wearing. So I'd just use whatever was the highest level and boost it just enough with the cheap crap to put a +10 stat and some 1 point mods on 'em. whoops Kalli fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Mar 8, 2022 |
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Mar 8, 2022 18:24
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Bust Rodd posted:There are lots of very difficult/complex solo activities. Afaik the trophy is tied to finishing queenswalk and nothing else.
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Mar 8, 2022 18:25
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I'll tell ya something that 100% of Guardians care about Happy Weekly Reset, everybody!!
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Mar 8, 2022 18:26
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:And that's a good point that's it's a failing from Bungie. They are notoriously uninterested in catering to solo players I think there is interest from casuals in engaging with that content somehow, even if it means getting the rewards at a slower pace (which to me seems like it would help long term engagement). As was said though, everyone assumes that their way of playing is the 'normal' way so my perspective is probably skewed. It would be nice to have clear, unambiguous data from Bungie's servers though.
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Mar 8, 2022 18:26
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Yeah, I'm one of the players who would love to play through all the raids, only for the story completion, but with a full time job and a family it's hard to get enough time for that. Give me Baby's First Strike difficulty with Matchmaking and I'd be happy.
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Mar 8, 2022 18:59
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Getting a regular group of people is the best way to do raids, but between adult responsibilities and waning interest, it's hard to keep them going. That is really the biggest barrier. I also think that the basics of some raid mechanics should be introduced in other parts of the game. Having to watch YouTube walkthroughs as homework feels bad, and learning when 5 other people are there watching and depending on you can be intimidating.
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Mar 8, 2022 19:03
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:I'll tell ya something that 100% of Guardians care about I love my little Striga. And he's always… so… hungry. //CASE 620102; SUSPECT IDENT JANA-14; STATUS: AT LARGE //EVIDENCE IDENT #303, AUDIO DEVICE; RECOVERED ADJACENT TO DISMEMBERED BODY, RIBS EXCISED
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Mar 8, 2022 19:07
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I can’t envision how you would change a lot of raid encounters to be the Baby’s First version of the encounter without simply turning it into something else entirely. how would you make a simpler version of the fourth encounter of last wish that still accurately uses the same mechanics of the encounter and teaches you how to do it without just throwing long sentences of text on everyone’s screen telling them what to do?
Owl Inspector fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Mar 8, 2022 |
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Mar 8, 2022 19:14
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:I'll tell ya something that 100% of Guardians care about Lol this is still hosed up? Come the hell on Bungie.
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Mar 8, 2022 19:16
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life_source posted:they couldn't even if they wanted to Isn't VoG available for FTP? It's not a particularly good raid, but it is a raid.
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Mar 8, 2022 19:17
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Gay Rat Wedding posted:I can’t envision how you would change a lot of raid encounters to be the Baby’s First version of the encounter without simply turning it into something else entirely. how would you make a simpler version of vault that still accurately uses the same mechanics of the encounter and teaches you how to do it without just throwing long sentences of text on everyone’s screen telling them what to do? Removing the wipe checks would be a start. Then you can adjust the Simon says / oracles to either be simpler and maybe make the cleanse / darkness be a rebuff that dims instead of completely covering the screen. So you’re still doing all VoG asks you to do, you just dial town in the failure tolerances.
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Mar 8, 2022 19:18
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By vault, I meant the fourth encounter of last wish, I should have been clearer
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Mar 8, 2022 19:20
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Removing the wipe checks would be a start. Then you can adjust the Simon says / oracles to either be simpler and maybe make the cleanse / darkness be a rebuff that dims instead of completely covering the screen. Yeah, and this is really the difference between Contest Mode and normal raids, too; failure tolerance. It could be done.
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Mar 8, 2022 19:20
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Mar 8, 2022 19:21
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You want to talk failure intolerance, in D1 the raid hard modes did not allow revives at all.
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Mar 8, 2022 19:22
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Gay Rat Wedding posted:I can’t envision how you would change a lot of raid encounters to be the Baby’s First version of the encounter without simply turning it into something else entirely. how would you make a simpler version of vault that still accurately uses the same mechanics of the encounter and teaches you how to do it without just throwing long sentences of text on everyone’s screen telling them what to do? There needs to be a solo mission where a projection of savathun calls you a dumbass if you can't enter "love worm knowledge" (and other combos) in the lore/wishwall bit of VoD instead of the stupid teaser "not exo challenge" mission we got. give guardians an opportunity to learn to read before throwing them onto a curmudgeonly raid team that will just chew them out for not memorizing them all on day one (like me  )EDIT: not a vog rec but I feel like it's a mistake for people to only learn the symbol calls in the raid itself where tensions are high instead of a low stress activity where babby guardian learns to read. the hard part about doing vog for the first time is that a lot of people will say "you just need to count" but the thing you actually have to do is know the physical location of oracle spawns which is actually sorta hard to do on the fly because you see them for maybe a minute or 2 per run (and if chance is not in your favor you won't see some oracle spawns at all). the best way to learn any of it is probably on day 1 when everyone is ignorant but that's a lovely option to force all players into. have raid sherpas/youtubes teach everyone everything about a raid is (yet another) lazy move by bungie when they could be creating seasonal activities that teach raid mechanics before a new raider pisses off their team Marzzle fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Mar 8, 2022 |
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Mar 8, 2022 19:23
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Bust Rodd posted:I’m not trying to sound ableist here at all so apologies but f it comes off that way, but “being social” is a complete non issue for some, as effortless and mindless as washing one’s hands. For others, perhaps for the kind of person who wants to spend hours in their imaginary spaceman game playing by themselves with ghosts on the moon, 5 people might be the largest group dynamic that person LITERALLY EVER forces themselves to experience. I'm not talking about my problems specifically, mostly because it seems to really piss one or two people off doing so. I could explain at length about processing loop delay, how stress reduces my functioning cognitive capacity, RSD and how it affects executive functioning over much greater periods, and I'd still get the same guy telling me to just be social. As a side issue my hands are hosed, so extended play and high-intensity play are not options without the opportunity to take regular breaks, so I quite often gently caress up holding a point, or not dying under heavy fire, especially since the CWL orb/protective light build got nerfed. But the problems with content aren't about difficulty, so much as accessibility. The issue with difficulty is weird because it kind of loops round on itself. A lot of the content is difficult, and a lot of you have been playing for so long that you forget how much - watching my wife learn the ropes, I realised how much better than her I currently am, and yet I would say I am easily one of the least capable players in this thread. The fireteam app counteracts that somewhat, although the new balancing that scales enemy health / damage off fireteam size has negated the benefits a little. Being in a group is mostly a benefit in terms of darkness zones where other players can rez you or just go hide and wait out the timer, instead of solo players having to just restart the entire encounter. The raids and some of the dungeons have mechanics that require coordination though, which is a seperate issue to difficulty. In the new symbol room, it isn't possible for one player to make it to all the symbols in time no matter how good they are (though you can currently glitch it solo by doing 3 then 1 for some reason). Most raid mechanics require every player to be doing a particular role (sometimes enforced by teleport or random debuff so you can't choose), and if one player fluffs it, everyone dies. There is no way with my processing delay that I'm going to remember what the word associated with a symbol is, and call it out or go looking for it in the middle of a shitshow. My language skills are not great under pressure. Most of my attempts at last wish ended with 'poo poo, sorry, where? Oh. It's... uh, bird, flying down. No not across, down sort of to the... Ah gently caress, sorry guys." But there are a ton of other reasons - There are mute players, trans players, and deaf players who can't use voice at all. There are also older players with kids or thin walls who don't want to be shouting Mars and Venus at 2 am, the only time they can fit in a game. Not everyone can do voice. Someone mentioned last page it's been a year since they've had time to organise a raid. Or hell, I spent half an hour trying to get a Grasp group together last night. I only had 2 hours or so to play and I spent a quarter of it staring at my phone. And I knew about the app. Not everyone finds a group or knows where to look. I'm not saying that this means these challenges should be removed from the raid. Like I say I've come to understand Bungie can't create challenging content that takes everyone'a needs into account. And enough players enjoy the challenge that the harder modes shouldn't be nerfed. It'd just suck so much less if there was any way to engage with that content on a more accessible footing. Combine this with the 80% statistic and clearly there's a problem here. Not just for disabled players, which is where I primarily look at it from, but for a huge proportion of players for various reasons. It's not that we want to play it on hard, we just want to play it. If you look at something like Call of Duty the stats would show than less than 10% of people completed the campaign on the highest difficulty. But the campaign has lower difficulty settings it can be completed on. The argument that only a minority of players finish challenging difficulties (and that that's good) kind of loses its steam when Destiny has content that can only be accessed with that degree of challenge in place. This is a good article on the difference between difficulty and accessibility in games. There are a lot of players who do not engage with content not because it's hard, but because it's the wrong kind of challenge for them. I spent ages carefully soloing Preservation and loved every second of it. The moment I saw the first timer in Vox I noped out, found a group in the app and just prayed that there were no communication mechanics. The final Parasite mission is particularly insane solo - multiple instakills mechanics and enemies everywhere while you can't even shoot because you're holding a bomb, but if you have even one other person they can shoot the enemies trying to get near you. As a side note, I will always find it crazy that there are so many activities and exotic missions designed to be played with a group which have no matchmaking and no warning that you're not supposed to do it solo. I mean it's good that you can as a challenge, but it shouldn't look like the default option. As far as how you make the raid easier, just make it a mission like Preservation, or Paradox & Last Rites from D1. Change the boss rooms so they're just full of enemies and drop a yellow bar at the end. Give one chest with a powerful at the end instead. It doesn't have to be 'raid but easy' in the sense of being the raid exactly, it could have reworded voice lines, different encounters - just as long as it gives casuals enough of a sense of what's going on. And that's the weird thing about raids is that IMHO a lot of people want to get into that kind of content, they just can't for a variety of reasons. E: for clarity. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Mar 8, 2022 |
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Mar 8, 2022 19:37
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Coldforge posted:Isn't VoG available for FTP? Yeah, but the quote was about Last Wish specifically so I just wanted to correct and inform. Matchmade raids would be terrible. Have any of you ever just stood back and watched your two randoms in strikes? People in this game are brutally moronic individuals. Just unbelievably brainless subhumans. Unloading multiple rounds of heavy into the enemy that says Immune, throwing ball mechanics at red bars, attempting to revive in the middle of a pool of fire and dying. It's infuriating.
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Mar 8, 2022 19:50
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Matchmade raids would be bad with how Destiny is right now, I don't think anyone is arguing that. But FFXIV has engaging matchmade raid content, so Bungie has room to up their game. Also, put the fireteam finder in game FFS.
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Mar 8, 2022 19:57
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The light level for the Dead Messenger catalyst is 1580  .
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Mar 8, 2022 19:59
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Mesadoram posted:The light level for the Dead Messenger catalyst is 1580 That’s pretty typical for a mission like that and it’s also typical to not be ready for it in week 3 of a season. You have until the end of May to do it before the next power reset, and until next February before it’s removed from the game
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Mar 8, 2022 20:06
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https://twitter.com/BungieHelp/status/1501258882877853697?s=20&t=EmCHjCRCPNMlJTIaStaSzg Apparently people were getting quadruple XP Also rumors that the Master Vox/catalyst wasn't supposed to be active yet
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Mar 8, 2022 20:23
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Gay Rat Wedding posted:I can’t envision how you would change a lot of raid encounters to be the Baby’s First version of the encounter without simply turning it into something else entirely. how would you make a simpler version of the fourth encounter of last wish that still accurately uses the same mechanics of the encounter and teaches you how to do it without just throwing long sentences of text on everyone’s screen telling them what to do? Going to armchain design but I can think up a few ways for the Riven fight: - Picking up the taken orb, you can see the symbols in the arena; no need to coordinate with a guy calling out "bird down" now you just match the symbol you see. - The eyes you need to shoot glow when Riven starts the party wipe
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Mar 8, 2022 20:26
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SgtSteel91 posted:Going to armchain design but I can think up a few ways for the Riven fight: Or they could put a marker in the cheese spot so you can skip that poo poo entirely
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Mar 8, 2022 20:27
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I want to thank the people talking about how good DIM and Light.gg are, because the OP didn't really call out to me how good these two resources are. DarkHorse's write up was very helpful, though!Bobby Deluxe posted:
This here is the type of player I am right now, I am doing the Witch Queen campaign very lightly and when I log on it's mostly to shoot some bounties while doing public quests and maybe a lost sector or two. The game's new user experience is very much improved from when I tried the game a couple years back and now actually properly explains what to do and where to go to do things that are interesting.
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Mar 8, 2022 20:33
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I think Bungie is onto something with the Preservation Mission, giving solo or people who can't raid a way to experience it. Maybe in the future they can turn it into a Dungeon: with three people or solo (if you're a bad enough Guardian) you run a modified version of the raid with three encounters that drop the raid gear. Maybe a trade-off/way to entire people to running the raid can be that you can't buy raid gear at the end like you can in the raid itself.
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Mar 8, 2022 20:33
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This is pretty cool, from one of the Parasite artists: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/2qyqnJ
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Mar 8, 2022 20:34
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they should make a pit of heresy style dungeon but with darkness/VoD glyphs instead of hive glyphs
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Mar 8, 2022 20:36
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Marzzle posted:There needs to be a solo mission where a projection of savathun calls you a dumbass if you can't enter "love worm knowledge" (and other combos) in the lore/wishwall bit of VoD instead of the stupid teaser "not exo challenge" mission we got. give guardians an opportunity to learn to read before throwing them onto a curmudgeonly raid team that will just chew them out for not memorizing them all on day one (like me I thought Expunge did this quite well - you used the same map but took different paths and introduced new mechanics each time through, so you only had to focus on learning the new stuff. By the time you did Quria you had done all the mechanics and put them together for the boss fight. Maybe have a raid be made up of several Nightfall-style strikes or Dungeons, and you have to complete them before you can try the raid?
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Mar 8, 2022 20:37
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Marzzle posted:they should make a pit of heresy style dungeon but with darkness/VoD glyphs instead of hive glyphs We get two Dungeons this year! I suspect one will be Mars/Rasputiny given the story threads A Pyramid dungeon would be cool too, and lore-wise, the Pyramid is still a hotbed of activity even after Rhulk's untimely departure
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Mar 8, 2022 20:38
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Potsticker posted:I want to thank the people talking about how good DIM and Light.gg are, because the OP didn't really call out to me how good these two resources are. DarkHorse's write up was very helpful, though! Aww thank you! I'm glad to know it helped (and to Bust Rodd for giving me credit!), feel free to give suggestions for how I could make it better for newbies (says the guy that's only been playing since September) Would a detailed guide on using DIM be useful? If so I can try to write one up
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Mar 8, 2022 20:41
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