Ukraine Conflict: Links to Relief Orgs - $45,235.18 Donated Thusfar - GANGTAG

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Ukraine Conflict: Links to Relief Orgs - $45,235.18 Donated Thusfar - GANGTAG

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CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

A big flaming stink posted:

honestly if you truly want to be a helpful resource then you should include a section in the OP where you give warnings that these charities are associated with neonazis/banderites/other far rightists and include a citation if you have them

obviously dont include a hyperlink to the nazi charities' sites

That's what we're doing. And we are breaking any hyperlinks to suspect charities.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 12:42

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 19:15

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

It probably should be pointed out that the UCC and UCCA refute these allegations and condemn all far-right and extremist views. The CUF fund in question is collecting money to send humanitarian supplies to Ukraine, which they talk about here:

https://www.cufoundation.ca/second-aid-provision-sent-to-support-ukrainiane/

The debate essentially comes down to disagreement over how to characterize Ukrainian anti-communist groups in the 1930s-1940s. Some people see them as mostly nationalists, and others view them as basically fascists, but it should be emphasized that there is not consensus on this and the academic argument (which Himka is part of) is also tied up with debates over the Holomdor and Ukrainian independence.

In addition, there's a contingent of people like Richard Sanders (the other guy linked as "evidence") who are still fighting a rear-guard action against the dissolution of the USSR, and have long diatribes available about every post-Soviet state and their supposed connection to Hitler, NATO, and the CIA. :tinfoil:

CBC posted:

Why a photo of Freeland holding a black-and-red scarf sparked a firestorm online

Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland was photographed holding a scarf bearing colours associated with a far-right Ukrainian paramilitary group from the Second World War this past weekend.

Both her office and the Ukrainian Canadian Congress suggest the questions and criticism she has received about it online are linked to a pattern of Russian-backed disinformation targeting members of the Ukrainian community.

The Twitter account for Freeland shared photos of the federal finance minister at a Ukrainian solidarity march in Toronto on Sunday holding a black-and-red scarf with the Ukrainian phrase "Slava Ukraini," which translates to "Glory to Ukraine," written in Cyrillic.

Toronto Mayor John Tory was in the group and his account also shared photos of the moment, including one that showed the other side of the scarf, which had the phrase "Heroyam Slava," or "Glory to heroes." Neither Tory nor Freeland are touching the scarf in that photo.

Both accounts deleted the photos the next day. Freeland then issued an identical tweet about her presence at the march organized to show solidarity with Ukraine after Russia launched a multi-pronged attack on the sovereign country. It featured a photo without the scarf.

Ivan Katchanovski, a political scientist at the University of Ottawa, said the red-and-black flag, along with the "Glory to Ukraine, glory to the heroes" slogan, was adopted by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) during its congress in Nazi-occupied Poland in April 1941.

The UPA was the armed wing of Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), an ultranationalist, antisemitic and fascist organization.

Adrienne Vaupshas, press secretary to Freeland, said in a written statement Wednesday that there were thousands of people at the event in Toronto, that many were trying to get a photo or give the Liberal cabinet minister tokens, such as ribbons, and that she tried to be friendly with everyone.

She added that someone "pushed a scarf (that read "Slava Ukraini") in front of some politicians," including Freeland.

'We condemn all far-right and extremist views'
Vaupshas described the phrase as the "slogan of Ukraine in today's fight against Russia" and said that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and British Prime Minister Boris Johnson have used the phrase as well.

The original tweet, and its subsequent deletion, garnered a lot of reaction, which intensified after the online conservative website True North Centre wrote about it on Monday.

The article noted that Trudeau had called out "Nazi symbolism" at the recent anti-vaccine mandate protests in Ottawa after a swastika flag was seen in the crowd.

"Can you see the hypocrisy and double standard now?" People's Party of Canada Leader Maxime Bernier tweeted the next day, adding that he does not believe Freeland is an "actual Nazi."

"A classic KGB disinformation smear is accusing Ukrainians and Ukrainian-Canadians of being far right extremists or fascists or Nazis," Vaupshas wrote in the beginning of her statement sent Wednesday.

The KGB, which existed from 1954 to 1991, was the security service in the Soviet Union.

"A photo was taken, tweeted, and later replaced when it was clear some accounts were distorting the intent of the rally and photo," she added.

"We condemn all far-right and extremist views and organizations, whether they are in Russia, Ukraine, or Canada. The deputy prime minister has no association with any far-right organizations," she added.

Vaupshas did not comment when asked about what was written on the other side of the scarf the minister was holding.

Conservative MP takes aim at 'disinformation'
A statement from Tory's office said the mayor attended the rally to show both his and Toronto's support for Ukraine and its people.

"We are not aware of this particular scarf or its meaning," said the statement. "The mayor is always focused on bringing our city together during difficult times and in no way wants to do anything that divides our residents as we work to support the Ukrainian community."

Conservative MP James Bezan was also at the rally and is seen in the photo holding a sign someone gave him that said "pray for Ukraine and stop war." He said Thursday that he was not aware of what was happening with the scarf at the time. But he also suggested the attention the original photo is getting is feeding into Russian disinformation efforts.

"I just don't think in the moment people are thinking about how all this plays out with a Putin disinformation campaign," he said.

Katchanovski said contemporary Ukrainian ultranationalist groups, such as Right Sector, adopted the red-and-black flag along with the "Glory to Ukraine" greeting before and during the pro-western Euromaidan protests that led to the removal of former Ukraine president Viktor Yanukovych from power in 2014. He said its widespread subsequent use has led some to believe that it is a traditional Ukrainian greeting.

There also have been attempts in modern Ukraine "to recast the OUN and the UPA as popular national liberation movement, which fought against both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, and to present OUN and UPA leaders as national heroes," said Katchanovski.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has argued that Ukraine is committing genocide against ethnic Russians and that the state needs to be"de-nazified."

"The glorification of these organizations has been the subject of an emerging criticism by historians both in the West and within Ukraine," said historian John-Paul Himka, a professor emeritus at the University of Alberta and an uncle to Freeland.

"Putin has exploited the heroization of these nationalists in his propaganda. With his invasion, he has only brightened their image."

'Ms. Freeland has been a victim of Russian disinformation'
Katchanovski said scholarly studies and archival documents show the OUN collaborated with Nazi Germany in the beginning and at the end of the Second World War. The Bandera faction of the OUN, which controlled the UPA, led a campaign of ethnic cleansing of Poles in Volhynia in 1943. (Poland's Parliament voted in 2016 to recognize the massacre as a genocide.)

"Many OUN and UPA leaders and members, who headed or served in the police and local administration during the Nazi occupation of Ukraine, helped Nazi Germany to perpetrate in the Holocaust and Nazi genocides of Jews, Roma, Ukrainians, Byelorussians and Russians," Katchanovski said.

Katchanovski still said that neither the OUN nor the UPA were Nazi organizations. The Nazis killed millions of Ukrainians.

He also said Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky � a Jewish descendant of Holocaust survivors � and his government "are not Nazis or neo-Nazis, and there is no genocide in Ukraine."

Marvin Rotrand, national director of the League for Human Rights at B'nai Brith Canada, condemned the use of the black-and-red flags spotted at pro-Ukraine events.

"The UPA's black-and-red flag is consistently recognized as a fascist emblem and a hate symbol throughout the international community," he said.

After The Canadian Press contacted Freeland's office for comment, the Ukrainian Canadian Congress sent a statement from its president, Alexandra Chyczij, reacting to allegations on social media that Freeland was showing support for extremists with the scarf.

"The Ukrainian Canadian Congress strongly and categorically rejects these unfounded allegations and attacks against Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland. Ms. Freeland obviously does not support far-right extremist organizations," she wrote.

"Ms. Freeland has been a victim of Russian disinformation before and this is a typical Russian smear to discredit Ukrainians and Ukrainian-Canadians."

Freeland, a Toronto MP of Ukrainian heritage, was banned by Russia in 2014 after Putin retaliated against sanctions imposed on his country over its annexation of Crimea.

Her grandfather � whose story was related in an article written by Himka that the Globe and Mail reported on in 2017 � was editor of a Nazi propaganda newspaper, the Krakow News, in occupied Poland during the Second World War. The Globe reported Freeland had edited the article.

When the news of her grandfather's role was first reported that year, including by pro-Putin sites, Freeland initially linked it to a Russian disinformation campaign.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/freeland-nationalist-scarf-1.6372995

Kaal fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Mar 14, 2022

# ? Mar 14, 2022 12:50

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

CommieGIR posted:

That's what we're doing. And we are breaking any hyperlinks to suspect charities.

By breaking the hyperlink, you're making it so that people have to intentionally donate. Is donating money to a suspect organization okay if you have to really mean it?

In any other case of technically legal but morally questionable, discussion of where and how is banned from the public forums.

Somehow, just making someone have to copy-paste and push backspace a few times is acceptable when it comes to funding reactionaries and neo-Nazis. Why is this the solution rather than deleting all mention of the suspect organization, including the link?

# ? Mar 14, 2022 15:46

Sir John Falstaff: Apr 13, 2010

redneck nazgul posted:

By breaking the hyperlink, you're making it so that people have to intentionally donate. Is donating money to a suspect organization okay if you have to really mean it?

In any other case of technically legal but morally questionable, discussion of where and how is banned from the public forums.

Somehow, just making someone have to copy-paste and push backspace a few times is acceptable when it comes to funding reactionaries and neo-Nazis. Why is this the solution rather than deleting all mention of the suspect organization, including the link?

How would you tell people not to donate to them without mentioning who they are?

# ? Mar 14, 2022 15:58

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

redneck nazgul posted:

By breaking the hyperlink, you're making it so that people have to intentionally donate. Is donating money to a suspect organization okay if you have to really mean it?

In any other case of technically legal but morally questionable, discussion of where and how is banned from the public forums.

Somehow, just making someone have to copy-paste and push backspace a few times is acceptable when it comes to funding reactionaries and neo-Nazis. Why is this the solution rather than deleting all mention of the suspect organization, including the link?

So, your problem is people might bypass us and donate anyways? How the hell do we possibly control or assume responsibility for that?

If someone is going to hunt down a Fascist org and donate to them, do you really think we're in a position to stop them? What we CAN stop is people who want to be informed on what groups not to donate or may be linked to bad actors. People accidentally donating to bad groups is likely the bigger issue versus people purposefully hunting for said bad groups to donate to.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:07

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

Sir John Falstaff posted:

How would you tell people not to donate to them without mentioning who they are?

Here's an idea.

quote:

Here is a list of verified humanitarian NGOS and charities that you can donate to:

<list of cool organizations like the Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, Book It!>

Any organization not on this list could be a scam / lead to you supporting people you wouldn't want to invite to dinner. Donate at your own risk!

You know, like every other charity drive on this website has ever done.

No other charity drive would have kept a link to a bad organization and then played coy by adding parentheses when called out on it. If you're soliciting donations for a cause, the burden is on you to establish that the money is going to a good cause and not someone's pocket / neo-Nazis. If someone wants to go donate money to neo-Nazis, that's on them, personal responsibility yadda yadda--but don't make it incredibly easy for them to do so. Hiding behind "well, we just wanted to make sure that people know not to donate to this bad organization that we've named and kept the link for" is garbage when you could just put up a list of known good charities and encourage people to donate to those instead of going out and finding potentially bad ones on their own.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:18

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

redneck nazgul posted:

Here's an idea.

You know, like every other charity drive on this website has ever done.

No other charity drive would have kept a link to a bad organization and then played coy by adding parentheses when called out on it. If you're soliciting donations for a cause, the burden is on you to establish that the money is going to a good cause and not someone's pocket / neo-Nazis. If someone wants to go donate money to neo-Nazis, that's on them, personal responsibility yadda yadda--but don't make it incredibly easy for them to do so. Hiding behind "well, we just wanted to make sure that people know not to donate to this bad organization that we've named and kept the link for" is garbage when you could just put up a list of known good charities and encourage people to donate to those instead of going out and finding potentially bad ones on their own.

Again: you are making the assumption that people are purposefully skimming to find Right Wing groups to donate to. This is a very bold assumption, and basically means that the person in question is going to donate to Fascist orgs regardless of what we say or not.

Long and short: No, we will not be removing the broken URLs so that people can be aware who not to donate to. We cannot control what people do outside of Somethingawful and how they might abuse that information.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:22

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

CommieGIR posted:

Long and short: No, we will not be removing the broken URLs so that people can be aware who not to donate to. We cannot control what people do outside of Somethingawful and how they might abuse that information.

You literally have a list of well-known organizations in the OP. All you have to do is put a caveat that says that these are known organizations, anything else could result in your money funding bad people / someone's new graphics card, and then strip out everything else. You don't need to highlight specifically bad organizations because you've already stated "These are good, you should donate to these, please donate to these". This isn't rocket science, it's the same principle behind the Combined Federal Campaign where you can easily donate to known good charities but donating to unknown ones takes a bit of legwork.

People will donate to the links and organizations provided. If you have a broken link to a bad organization, people who sympathize with that style of organization can now just repair the link instead of having to Google "right-wing ukrainian organization donation page english translation".

I do not understand why you are adamantly against making it harder to donate to reactionary / neo-Nazi organizations.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:34

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

redneck nazgul posted:

I do not understand why you are adamantly against making it harder to donate to reactionary / neo-Nazi organizations.

Because that's not the actual risk, is it? The risk is people donating to reactionary/Nazi orgs and NOT KNOWING they did. You are suggesting they are trawling the donation thread to find those and donate to them.

By that logic: They will find them anyways. The idea that uninformed donation is better than informed donation is insane. You need to demonstrate that by warning people about these groups, we are somehow indirectly encouraging people to donate to them DESPITE US TELL THEM NOT TO. That's their responsibility for ignoring the warning, seeking out these groups, and donating to them, not ours for warning people.

That's like saying: How dare you label this abandoned mine, you are just going to encourage curious people to go in them!

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:37

paul_soccer12: Jan 5, 2020; by Fluffdaddy

Kaal posted:

It probably should be pointed out that the UCC and UCCA refute these allegations and condemn all far-right and extremist views. The CUF fund in question is collecting money to send humanitarian supplies to Ukraine, which they talk about here:

https://www.cufoundation.ca/second-aid-provision-sent-to-support-ukrainiane/

The debate essentially comes down to disagreement over how to characterize Ukrainian anti-communist groups in the 1930s-1940s. Some people see them as mostly nationalists, and others view them as basically fascists, but it should be emphasized that there is not consensus on this and the academic argument (which Himka is part of) is also tied up with debates over the Holomdor and Ukrainian independence.

In addition, there's a contingent of people like Richard Sanders (the other guy linked as "evidence") who are still fighting a rear-guard action against the dissolution of the USSR, and have long diatribes available about every post-Soviet state and their supposed connection to Hitler, NATO, and the CIA.

You're posting self serving apologia for a group that participated in the holocaust

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:37

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

paul_soccer12 posted:

You're posting self serving apologia for a group that participated in the holocaust

Substantiate it or gently caress back off to CSPAM.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:46

paul_soccer12: Jan 5, 2020; by Fluffdaddy

Kaal posted:

Substantiate it or gently caress back off to CSPAM.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Lmao

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:48

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

paul_soccer12 posted:

Lmao

Its fine to call out issues, but please don't do this.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:49

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

CommieGIR posted:

Because that's not the actual risk, is it? The risk is people donating to reactionary/Nazi orgs and NOT KNOWING they did. You are suggesting they are trawling the donation thread to find those and donate to them.

No, the risk is in people donating to reactionary / Nazi organizations. Whether they're doing so accidentally or with their left hand because their right hand is currently locked in a Heil Bandera salute is irrelevant because Nazis are still getting money. People donate to the links and groups that are provided. You specifically naming a Nazi organization means that any random right-wing person browsing this thread now has a convenient and easy link to repair and donate with. Is this plausible and actually happening? Who cares? You can prevent it from even happening in the first place!

quote:

That's like saying: How dare you label this abandoned mine, you are just going to encourage curious people to go in them!

You're the one who put an abandoned mine shaft in the list of family-friendly tourist attractions, and you're the one refusing to take it off the list and getting testy when people ask why the abandoned mine is still associated with a list of family-friendly tourist attractions.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:50

paul_soccer12: Jan 5, 2020; by Fluffdaddy

CommieGIR posted:

Its fine to call out issues, but please don't do this.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:50

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

redneck nazgul posted:

No, the risk is in people donating to reactionary / Nazi organizations. Whether they're doing so accidentally or with their left hand because their right hand is currently locked in a Heil Bandera salute is irrelevant because Nazis are still getting money. People donate to the links and groups that are provided. You specifically naming a Nazi organization means that any random right-wing person browsing this thread now has a convenient and easy link to repair and donate with. Is this plausible and actually happening? Who cares? You can prevent it from even happening in the first place!

You're the one who put an abandoned mine shaft in the list of family-friendly tourist attractions, and you're the one refusing to take it off the list and getting testy when people ask why the abandoned mine is still associated with a list of family-friendly tourist attractions.

That requires them to copy the link, visit it KNOWING what it is after reading the warning, and doing so.

We're done discussing this. Telling people what groups may be bad and should be avoided is not inviting people to donate to them. That's outright removing any agency from the person knowingly doing it and saying somehow we made them do it. By this logic being an informed person is somehow secretly a way to corrupt them and make them do the opposite of the informed decision.

redneck nazgul posted:

You're the one who put an abandoned mine shaft in the list of family-friendly tourist attractions, and you're the one refusing to take it off the list and getting testy when people ask why the abandoned mine is still associated with a list of family-friendly tourist attractions.

Do you get on Tourist attraction that have big "DO NOT ENTER, OUT OF SERVICE, DANGEROUS" signs on them? If so I suspect that on you, not the tourist attraction.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:53

Theotus: Nov 8, 2014

Just delete the link and unnecessary edit, what is the problem?

# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:56

Koos Group: Mar 6, 2013

redneck nazgul posted:

No, the risk is in people donating to reactionary / Nazi organizations. Whether they're doing so accidentally or with their left hand because their right hand is currently locked in a Heil Bandera salute is irrelevant because Nazis are still getting money. People donate to the links and groups that are provided. You specifically naming a Nazi organization means that any random right-wing person browsing this thread now has a convenient and easy link to repair and donate with. Is this plausible and actually happening? Who cares? You can prevent it from even happening in the first place!

The plausibility does matter to me, as what it ultimately comes down to is whether the number of people who are warned away from donating to the group, such as Sashimi, is greater than the number of people who are reading D&D and would intentionally like to give to a group with fascist ties. And I do believe the former number is greater, as we have one example of it already, whereas a person who is looking for a Ukrainian org with fascist connections to give their money to probably would go to a place other than D&D to find them.

Theotus posted:

Just delete the link and unnecessary edit, what is the problem?

I did so, since the CUF has another web site besides that one, so the link could actually be counter-productive by making someone someone think the other site was a different org.

Koos Group fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Mar 14, 2022

# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:03

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

CommieGIR posted:

That requires them to copy the link, visit it KNOWING what it is after reading the warning, and doing so.

We're done discussing this. Telling people what groups may be bad and should be avoided is not inviting people to donate to them. That's outright removing any agency from the person knowingly doing it and saying somehow we made them do it. By this logic being an informed person is somehow secretly a way to corrupt them and make them do the opposite of the informed decision.

Let me make this as abundantly clear as I possibly can: I do not support anything that makes it easier to give money to Nazis, no matter how trivial or insipid or how much malice/stupidity I need to assume of anyone. Mentioning the name of a Nazi organization and including a broken donation link is making it easier to give money to Nazis, even if I have to assume that a would-be donator was suddenly and inexplicably radicalized by the presence of the link and the description of it.

I do not understand why this is a difficult concept to grasp or why you are so hellbent on keeping a bad donation link around. You could remove the link entirely and keep the organization and meet the intent of "We want to warn people not to donate to this organization", yet you refuse to do so. Why is that?

quote:

Do you get on Tourist attraction that have big "DO NOT ENTER, OUT OF SERVICE, DANGEROUS" signs on them? If so I suspect that on you, not the tourist attraction.

I thought "We're done discussing this" included parting shots.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:03

paul_soccer12: Jan 5, 2020; by Fluffdaddy

How about a simple bold message that explains that the various Ukrainian Congress orgs (UCC, UWWC, etc.) are controlled by the OUN-B, along with a short message explaining who the OUN-B are

Any other orgs that are discovered to be affiliated with/front groups for the OUN-B (like the CUF) can be appended to the OP message

no hyperlinks needed
Please don't ban me I'm not trolling

# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:04

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

Thank you for removing the donation link.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:07

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

redneck nazgul posted:

I do not understand why this is a difficult concept to grasp or why you are so hellbent on keeping a bad donation link around. You could remove the link entirely and keep the organization and meet the intent of "We want to warn people not to donate to this organization", yet you refuse to do so. Why is that?

Stop dancing around it and say what you mean: Do you think we're purposefully doing such? If so, stop dancing around it and accuse or or knock it off.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:09

Koos Group: Mar 6, 2013

paul_soccer12 posted:

How about a simple bold message that explains that the various Ukrainian Congress orgs (UCC, UWWC, etc.) are controlled by the OUN-B, along with a short message explaining who the OUN-B are

Any other orgs that are discovered to be affiliated with/front groups for the OUN-B (like the CUF) can be appended to the OP message

no hyperlinks needed
Please don't ban me I'm not trolling

That seems reasonable to me, though I would need someone to PM me or post in the thread the detailed information about the orgs and their connections. I'm having a difficult time finding the info myself by Googling, as articles on the OUN-B don't list its descendants, and there are no relevant results for what the UWWC is at all.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:12

Dr Kool-AIDS: Mar 26, 2004

CommieGIR posted:

Stop dancing around it and say what you mean: Do you think we're purposefully doing such? If so, stop dancing around it and accuse or or knock it off.

I don't think you're trying to help people support Nazi linked groups, but I think you've grown so accustomed to downplaying right wing extremism when it's embarrassing for Ukraine that you don't have any perspective on the issue anymore. The same argument 100% wouldn't have happened if there'd been a Syrian charity drive and someone had accidentally included a charity linked to Nusra or ISIS--any trace of it would have been gone immediately, and I'd hope it wouldn't just be for legal reasons.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:15

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Sinteres posted:

I don't think you're trying to help people support Nazi linked groups, but I think you've grown so accustomed to downplaying right wing extremism when it's embarrassing for Ukraine that you don't have any perspective on the issue anymore. The same argument 100% wouldn't have happened if there'd been a Syrian charity drive and someone had accidentally included a charity linked to Nusra or ISIS--any trace of it would have been gone immediately, and I'd hope it wouldn't just be for legal reasons.

We did remove them immediately when told. But the question was how do we make sure people do not accidentally donate to them.

Again: I disagree: Informing people "You need to avoid these groups and if someone sends you this URL for donate, do not use them". Being informed is better than dancing around it and pretending its gonna zap people into extremism because they chose to copy the URL, visit it, and somehow donate despite being told not to? What if their friend tells them to donate and sends that link?

At some point, you have to assume agency and that we can throw all the warnings in the world, but if they are dead set they will do it. To Shashimi's point: Friends are sending them donation links that include these groups, how do you inform them without pretending URLs are some sort of instantly corrupting method rather than a method of informing and verifying.

Sinteres posted:

I don't think you're trying to help people support Nazi linked groups, but I think you've grown so accustomed to downplaying right wing extremism when it's embarrassing for Ukraine that you don't have any perspective on the issue anymore.

If it was embarrassing we wouldn't inform people at all that these are bad groups and are associated with bad people. Sorry that's a really weird take when we are openly saying "These groups likely support Nazis, do not donate to them" rather than just pretending they should disappear.

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Mar 14, 2022

# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:19

frumpykvetchbot: Feb 20, 2004; PROGRESSIVE SCAN; Upset Trowel

tag me please :ukraine:

# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:54

frumpykvetchbot: Feb 20, 2004; PROGRESSIVE SCAN; Upset Trowel

frumpykvetchbot posted:

tag me please

with attachment this time. :-(

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:55

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

CommieGIR posted:

Stop dancing around it and say what you mean: Do you think we're purposefully doing such? If so, stop dancing around it and accuse or or knock it off.

Sure. Let's walk back through the history of this issue, loosely paraphrased because this doesn't need a bibliography and timestamps.

The original bad donation link was called out for Nazi / reactionary associations by CSPAM posters with an interesting history when it comes to D&D, and the whole donation drive was mocked in CSPAM for raising money for Nazi organizations. Eventually, after evidence was provided and the discussion got too lively, the donation link was broken and a caveat was added. The donation link still existed, even if it was as a warning rather than a suggested place for :10bux:

. This didn't go far enough for some people, myself included, and so people kept calling for it to be removed, not just altered. The point of contention here is that breaking a hyperlink does not equal removing a hyperlink.

You refused to budge, which I'm going to armchair psychologist to a combination of embarrassment that every other piece of Ukrainian media is Where's Waldo but with Azov / Black Sun / OUN symbology, as well as that it seems like CSPAM is just taking another opportunity to dunk on you and your position and is probably doing this in bad faith. This culminated in another moderator stepping in to do the very simple thing that you have refused to do, which is remove one line of text.

I don't think you're a Nazi sympathizer.. On the other hand, I think your actions in this thread are entirely out of malicious compliance because you don't want to give a win to posters you don't want in this forum in the first place.

I think the fact that it has taken days, pages, and weeks of probations to remove one line of text is embarrassing.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:56

ianskate: Sep 22, 2002; Run away before you drown!

Kramering into this thread at the wrong moment, but indirectly donated to WorldHelp via https://www.rareseeds.com/ukraine. I trust Baker Creek to send my donation/purchase of sunflower seeds, but don't know enough about World Help as an org. Google search seems to think they're legit and safe though, so at least there's that?

If gang tags are still available and this counts, would be willing to include some sort of a screenshot of my $25 censored receipt.

ianskate fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Mar 20, 2022

# ? Mar 14, 2022 18:43

Koos Group: Mar 6, 2013

redneck nazgul posted:

Sure. Let's walk back through the history of this issue, loosely paraphrased because this doesn't need a bibliography and timestamps.

The original bad donation link was called out for Nazi / reactionary associations by CSPAM posters with an interesting history when it comes to D&D, and the whole donation drive was mocked in CSPAM for raising money for Nazi organizations. Eventually, after evidence was provided and the discussion got too lively, the donation link was broken and a caveat was added. The donation link still existed, even if it was as a warning rather than a suggested place for . This didn't go far enough for some people, myself included, and so people kept calling for it to be removed, not just altered. The point of contention here is that breaking a hyperlink does not equal removing a hyperlink.

You refused to budge, which I'm going to armchair psychologist to a combination of embarrassment that every other piece of Ukrainian media is Where's Waldo but with Azov / Black Sun / OUN symbology, as well as that it seems like CSPAM is just taking another opportunity to dunk on you and your position and is probably doing this in bad faith. This culminated in another moderator stepping in to do the very simple thing that you have refused to do, which is remove one line of text.

I don't think you're a Nazi sympathizer.. On the other hand, I think your actions in this thread are entirely out of malicious compliance because you don't want to give a win to posters you don't want in this forum in the first place.

I think the fact that it has taken days, pages, and weeks of probations to remove one line of text is embarrassing.

Alright. Since the issue appears resolved now, please direct further feedback over lessons that can be learned or how things like this ought to be handled in the future in PMs to me, or wait until the next feedback thread if you'd like to discuss it publicly.

# ? Mar 14, 2022 18:45

A big flaming stink: Apr 26, 2010

redneck nazgul posted:

Here's an idea.

You know, like every other charity drive on this website has ever done.

No other charity drive would have kept a link to a bad organization and then played coy by adding parentheses when called out on it. If you're soliciting donations for a cause, the burden is on you to establish that the money is going to a good cause and not someone's pocket / neo-Nazis. If someone wants to go donate money to neo-Nazis, that's on them, personal responsibility yadda yadda--but don't make it incredibly easy for them to do so. Hiding behind "well, we just wanted to make sure that people know not to donate to this bad organization that we've named and kept the link for" is garbage when you could just put up a list of known good charities and encourage people to donate to those instead of going out and finding potentially bad ones on their own.

I actually disagree with this, the intention here is to bring attention to these organizations that purport to be charities but actually seek to empower the far-right, so that posters can know to avoid them when they spot them in the wild/warn their friends and family about these orgs

e: also commieGIR while i agree with your position i think you would be well served in this thread by toning down the antagonism in your responses by say 20% or so. at its current levels I feel it risks becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy when engaging with users itt

A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Mar 14, 2022

# ? Mar 14, 2022 21:41

TenementFunster: Feb 20, 2003; The Cooler King

CommieGIR posted:

edit on March 12th-
The following orgs have questionable activities or associations and we don't recommend donating to them:

The Canada-Ukraine Foundation (CUF) is linked to far-right Ukrainian Nationalist / Banderites.
The Ukrainian Congress Committee of America (UCCA) is involved with historical rehabilitation/revisionism of far-right figures, including some who committed war crimes.
The Ukrainian National Federation (UNF) openly states they consider themselves to be a spiritual successor to the right-wing ultranationalist OUN.

lmfao gas thread

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 15, 2022 02:07

Sic Semper Goon: Mar 1, 2015; Eu tu?; Switchblade Switcharoo

Tag me, please.

# ? Mar 15, 2022 06:54

lithium flour: Jan 27, 2012; a fully digital ovine

ReidRansom posted:

Hey do any of you know any specific charities that help animals in war-torn areas? Veterinarians Without Borders / V�t�rinaires Sans Fronti�res seems to be mostly about helping farmers in poor/underserved areas, mostly Africa. That's great, but I'm wondering if there's something for looking after pets and livestock that get left behind in places like Ukraine now.

I have been looking for this too. IFAW are supporting dog shelters: https://secure.ifaw.org/united-kingdom/emergency-in-ukraine?ms=KONDF220320020&cid=7013k000001a9YR
An Ukrainian colleague put me on to this zoo which is struggling to feed and care for animals: https://12.org.ua/donate/

I've donated to them as well as to the Red Cross.

lithium flour fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Mar 15, 2022

# ? Mar 15, 2022 11:51

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

I was going to donate my T61 from the collection but after using it a bit to get everythign set up, I think that would be quite rude :v:

So the T410 went off to a family from Kyiv with kids who need it for school work. You will be missed.

# ? Mar 15, 2022 19:06

Ginger Beer Belly: Aug 18, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Some folks I trust vouch for these folks. They're ferrying networking gear to Ukraine via Poland: https://nogalliance.org/our-task-forces/keep-ukraine-connected/