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A big flaming stink posted:honestly if you truly want to be a helpful resource then you should include a section in the OP where you give warnings that these charities are associated with neonazis/banderites/other far rightists and include a citation if you have them That's what we're doing. And we are breaking any hyperlinks to suspect charities.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 12:42 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 07:48 |
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It probably should be pointed out that the UCC and UCCA refute these allegations and condemn all far-right and extremist views. The CUF fund in question is collecting money to send humanitarian supplies to Ukraine, which they talk about here: https://www.cufoundation.ca/second-aid-provision-sent-to-support-ukrainiane/ The debate essentially comes down to disagreement over how to characterize Ukrainian anti-communist groups in the 1930s-1940s. Some people see them as mostly nationalists, and others view them as basically fascists, but it should be emphasized that there is not consensus on this and the academic argument (which Himka is part of) is also tied up with debates over the Holomdor and Ukrainian independence. In addition, there's a contingent of people like Richard Sanders (the other guy linked as "evidence") who are still fighting a rear-guard action against the dissolution of the USSR, and have long diatribes available about every post-Soviet state and their supposed connection to Hitler, NATO, and the CIA. CBC posted:Why a photo of Freeland holding a black-and-red scarf sparked a firestorm online Kaal fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Mar 14, 2022 |
# ? Mar 14, 2022 12:50 |
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CommieGIR posted:That's what we're doing. And we are breaking any hyperlinks to suspect charities. By breaking the hyperlink, you're making it so that people have to intentionally donate. Is donating money to a suspect organization okay if you have to really mean it? In any other case of technically legal but morally questionable, discussion of where and how is banned from the public forums. Somehow, just making someone have to copy-paste and push backspace a few times is acceptable when it comes to funding reactionaries and neo-Nazis. Why is this the solution rather than deleting all mention of the suspect organization, including the link?
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 15:46 |
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redneck nazgul posted:By breaking the hyperlink, you're making it so that people have to intentionally donate. Is donating money to a suspect organization okay if you have to really mean it? How would you tell people not to donate to them without mentioning who they are?
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 15:58 |
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redneck nazgul posted:By breaking the hyperlink, you're making it so that people have to intentionally donate. Is donating money to a suspect organization okay if you have to really mean it? So, your problem is people might bypass us and donate anyways? How the hell do we possibly control or assume responsibility for that? If someone is going to hunt down a Fascist org and donate to them, do you really think we're in a position to stop them? What we CAN stop is people who want to be informed on what groups not to donate or may be linked to bad actors. People accidentally donating to bad groups is likely the bigger issue versus people purposefully hunting for said bad groups to donate to.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:07 |
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Sir John Falstaff posted:How would you tell people not to donate to them without mentioning who they are? Here's an idea. quote:Here is a list of verified humanitarian NGOS and charities that you can donate to: You know, like every other charity drive on this website has ever done. No other charity drive would have kept a link to a bad organization and then played coy by adding parentheses when called out on it. If you're soliciting donations for a cause, the burden is on you to establish that the money is going to a good cause and not someone's pocket / neo-Nazis. If someone wants to go donate money to neo-Nazis, that's on them, personal responsibility yadda yadda--but don't make it incredibly easy for them to do so. Hiding behind "well, we just wanted to make sure that people know not to donate to this bad organization that we've named and kept the link for" is garbage when you could just put up a list of known good charities and encourage people to donate to those instead of going out and finding potentially bad ones on their own.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:18 |
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redneck nazgul posted:Here's an idea. Again: you are making the assumption that people are purposefully skimming to find Right Wing groups to donate to. This is a very bold assumption, and basically means that the person in question is going to donate to Fascist orgs regardless of what we say or not. Long and short: No, we will not be removing the broken URLs so that people can be aware who not to donate to. We cannot control what people do outside of Somethingawful and how they might abuse that information.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:22 |
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CommieGIR posted:Long and short: No, we will not be removing the broken URLs so that people can be aware who not to donate to. We cannot control what people do outside of Somethingawful and how they might abuse that information. You literally have a list of well-known organizations in the OP. All you have to do is put a caveat that says that these are known organizations, anything else could result in your money funding bad people / someone's new graphics card, and then strip out everything else. You don't need to highlight specifically bad organizations because you've already stated "These are good, you should donate to these, please donate to these". This isn't rocket science, it's the same principle behind the Combined Federal Campaign where you can easily donate to known good charities but donating to unknown ones takes a bit of legwork. People will donate to the links and organizations provided. If you have a broken link to a bad organization, people who sympathize with that style of organization can now just repair the link instead of having to Google "right-wing ukrainian organization donation page english translation". I do not understand why you are adamantly against making it harder to donate to reactionary / neo-Nazi organizations.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:34 |
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redneck nazgul posted:I do not understand why you are adamantly against making it harder to donate to reactionary / neo-Nazi organizations. Because that's not the actual risk, is it? The risk is people donating to reactionary/Nazi orgs and NOT KNOWING they did. You are suggesting they are trawling the donation thread to find those and donate to them. By that logic: They will find them anyways. The idea that uninformed donation is better than informed donation is insane. You need to demonstrate that by warning people about these groups, we are somehow indirectly encouraging people to donate to them DESPITE US TELL THEM NOT TO. That's their responsibility for ignoring the warning, seeking out these groups, and donating to them, not ours for warning people. That's like saying: How dare you label this abandoned mine, you are just going to encourage curious people to go in them!
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:37 |
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Kaal posted:It probably should be pointed out that the UCC and UCCA refute these allegations and condemn all far-right and extremist views. The CUF fund in question is collecting money to send humanitarian supplies to Ukraine, which they talk about here: You're posting self serving apologia for a group that participated in the holocaust
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:37 |
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paul_soccer12 posted:You're posting self serving apologia for a group that participated in the holocaust Substantiate it or gently caress back off to CSPAM. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:46 |
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Kaal posted:Substantiate it or gently caress back off to CSPAM. Lmao
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:48 |
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Its fine to call out issues, but please don't do this.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:49 |
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CommieGIR posted:Because that's not the actual risk, is it? The risk is people donating to reactionary/Nazi orgs and NOT KNOWING they did. You are suggesting they are trawling the donation thread to find those and donate to them. No, the risk is in people donating to reactionary / Nazi organizations. Whether they're doing so accidentally or with their left hand because their right hand is currently locked in a Heil Bandera salute is irrelevant because Nazis are still getting money. People donate to the links and groups that are provided. You specifically naming a Nazi organization means that any random right-wing person browsing this thread now has a convenient and easy link to repair and donate with. Is this plausible and actually happening? Who cares? You can prevent it from even happening in the first place! quote:That's like saying: How dare you label this abandoned mine, you are just going to encourage curious people to go in them! You're the one who put an abandoned mine shaft in the list of family-friendly tourist attractions, and you're the one refusing to take it off the list and getting testy when people ask why the abandoned mine is still associated with a list of family-friendly tourist attractions.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:50 |
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CommieGIR posted:Its fine to call out issues, but please don't do this. Ok
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:50 |
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redneck nazgul posted:No, the risk is in people donating to reactionary / Nazi organizations. Whether they're doing so accidentally or with their left hand because their right hand is currently locked in a Heil Bandera salute is irrelevant because Nazis are still getting money. People donate to the links and groups that are provided. You specifically naming a Nazi organization means that any random right-wing person browsing this thread now has a convenient and easy link to repair and donate with. Is this plausible and actually happening? Who cares? You can prevent it from even happening in the first place! That requires them to copy the link, visit it KNOWING what it is after reading the warning, and doing so. We're done discussing this. Telling people what groups may be bad and should be avoided is not inviting people to donate to them. That's outright removing any agency from the person knowingly doing it and saying somehow we made them do it. By this logic being an informed person is somehow secretly a way to corrupt them and make them do the opposite of the informed decision. redneck nazgul posted:You're the one who put an abandoned mine shaft in the list of family-friendly tourist attractions, and you're the one refusing to take it off the list and getting testy when people ask why the abandoned mine is still associated with a list of family-friendly tourist attractions. Do you get on Tourist attraction that have big "DO NOT ENTER, OUT OF SERVICE, DANGEROUS" signs on them? If so I suspect that on you, not the tourist attraction.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:53 |
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Just delete the link and unnecessary edit, what is the problem?
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 16:56 |
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redneck nazgul posted:No, the risk is in people donating to reactionary / Nazi organizations. Whether they're doing so accidentally or with their left hand because their right hand is currently locked in a Heil Bandera salute is irrelevant because Nazis are still getting money. People donate to the links and groups that are provided. You specifically naming a Nazi organization means that any random right-wing person browsing this thread now has a convenient and easy link to repair and donate with. Is this plausible and actually happening? Who cares? You can prevent it from even happening in the first place! The plausibility does matter to me, as what it ultimately comes down to is whether the number of people who are warned away from donating to the group, such as Sashimi, is greater than the number of people who are reading D&D and would intentionally like to give to a group with fascist ties. And I do believe the former number is greater, as we have one example of it already, whereas a person who is looking for a Ukrainian org with fascist connections to give their money to probably would go to a place other than D&D to find them. Theotus posted:Just delete the link and unnecessary edit, what is the problem? I did so, since the CUF has another web site besides that one, so the link could actually be counter-productive by making someone someone think the other site was a different org. Koos Group fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Mar 14, 2022 |
# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:03 |
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CommieGIR posted:That requires them to copy the link, visit it KNOWING what it is after reading the warning, and doing so. Let me make this as abundantly clear as I possibly can: I do not support anything that makes it easier to give money to Nazis, no matter how trivial or insipid or how much malice/stupidity I need to assume of anyone. Mentioning the name of a Nazi organization and including a broken donation link is making it easier to give money to Nazis, even if I have to assume that a would-be donator was suddenly and inexplicably radicalized by the presence of the link and the description of it. I do not understand why this is a difficult concept to grasp or why you are so hellbent on keeping a bad donation link around. You could remove the link entirely and keep the organization and meet the intent of "We want to warn people not to donate to this organization", yet you refuse to do so. Why is that? quote:Do you get on Tourist attraction that have big "DO NOT ENTER, OUT OF SERVICE, DANGEROUS" signs on them? If so I suspect that on you, not the tourist attraction. I thought "We're done discussing this" included parting shots.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:03 |
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How about a simple bold message that explains that the various Ukrainian Congress orgs (UCC, UWWC, etc.) are controlled by the OUN-B, along with a short message explaining who the OUN-B are Any other orgs that are discovered to be affiliated with/front groups for the OUN-B (like the CUF) can be appended to the OP message no hyperlinks needed Please don't ban me I'm not trolling
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:04 |
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Thank you for removing the donation link.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:07 |
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redneck nazgul posted:I do not understand why this is a difficult concept to grasp or why you are so hellbent on keeping a bad donation link around. You could remove the link entirely and keep the organization and meet the intent of "We want to warn people not to donate to this organization", yet you refuse to do so. Why is that? Stop dancing around it and say what you mean: Do you think we're purposefully doing such? If so, stop dancing around it and accuse or or knock it off.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:09 |
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paul_soccer12 posted:How about a simple bold message that explains that the various Ukrainian Congress orgs (UCC, UWWC, etc.) are controlled by the OUN-B, along with a short message explaining who the OUN-B are That seems reasonable to me, though I would need someone to PM me or post in the thread the detailed information about the orgs and their connections. I'm having a difficult time finding the info myself by Googling, as articles on the OUN-B don't list its descendants, and there are no relevant results for what the UWWC is at all.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:12 |
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CommieGIR posted:Stop dancing around it and say what you mean: Do you think we're purposefully doing such? If so, stop dancing around it and accuse or or knock it off. I don't think you're trying to help people support Nazi linked groups, but I think you've grown so accustomed to downplaying right wing extremism when it's embarrassing for Ukraine that you don't have any perspective on the issue anymore. The same argument 100% wouldn't have happened if there'd been a Syrian charity drive and someone had accidentally included a charity linked to Nusra or ISIS--any trace of it would have been gone immediately, and I'd hope it wouldn't just be for legal reasons.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:15 |
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Sinteres posted:I don't think you're trying to help people support Nazi linked groups, but I think you've grown so accustomed to downplaying right wing extremism when it's embarrassing for Ukraine that you don't have any perspective on the issue anymore. The same argument 100% wouldn't have happened if there'd been a Syrian charity drive and someone had accidentally included a charity linked to Nusra or ISIS--any trace of it would have been gone immediately, and I'd hope it wouldn't just be for legal reasons. We did remove them immediately when told. But the question was how do we make sure people do not accidentally donate to them. Again: I disagree: Informing people "You need to avoid these groups and if someone sends you this URL for donate, do not use them". Being informed is better than dancing around it and pretending its gonna zap people into extremism because they chose to copy the URL, visit it, and somehow donate despite being told not to? What if their friend tells them to donate and sends that link? At some point, you have to assume agency and that we can throw all the warnings in the world, but if they are dead set they will do it. To Shashimi's point: Friends are sending them donation links that include these groups, how do you inform them without pretending URLs are some sort of instantly corrupting method rather than a method of informing and verifying. Sinteres posted:I don't think you're trying to help people support Nazi linked groups, but I think you've grown so accustomed to downplaying right wing extremism when it's embarrassing for Ukraine that you don't have any perspective on the issue anymore. If it was embarrassing we wouldn't inform people at all that these are bad groups and are associated with bad people. Sorry that's a really weird take when we are openly saying "These groups likely support Nazis, do not donate to them" rather than just pretending they should disappear. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Mar 14, 2022 |
# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:19 |
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tag me please
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:54 |
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frumpykvetchbot posted:tag me please with attachment this time. :-(
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:55 |
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CommieGIR posted:Stop dancing around it and say what you mean: Do you think we're purposefully doing such? If so, stop dancing around it and accuse or or knock it off. Sure. Let's walk back through the history of this issue, loosely paraphrased because this doesn't need a bibliography and timestamps. The original bad donation link was called out for Nazi / reactionary associations by CSPAM posters with an interesting history when it comes to D&D, and the whole donation drive was mocked in CSPAM for raising money for Nazi organizations. Eventually, after evidence was provided and the discussion got too lively, the donation link was broken and a caveat was added. The donation link still existed, even if it was as a warning rather than a suggested place for . This didn't go far enough for some people, myself included, and so people kept calling for it to be removed, not just altered. The point of contention here is that breaking a hyperlink does not equal removing a hyperlink. You refused to budge, which I'm going to armchair psychologist to a combination of embarrassment that every other piece of Ukrainian media is Where's Waldo but with Azov / Black Sun / OUN symbology, as well as that it seems like CSPAM is just taking another opportunity to dunk on you and your position and is probably doing this in bad faith. This culminated in another moderator stepping in to do the very simple thing that you have refused to do, which is remove one line of text. I don't think you're a Nazi sympathizer.. On the other hand, I think your actions in this thread are entirely out of malicious compliance because you don't want to give a win to posters you don't want in this forum in the first place. I think the fact that it has taken days, pages, and weeks of probations to remove one line of text is embarrassing.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 17:56 |
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Kramering into this thread at the wrong moment, but indirectly donated to WorldHelp via https://www.rareseeds.com/ukraine. I trust Baker Creek to send my donation/purchase of sunflower seeds, but don't know enough about World Help as an org. Google search seems to think they're legit and safe though, so at least there's that? If gang tags are still available and this counts, would be willing to include some sort of a screenshot of my $25 censored receipt. ianskate fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Mar 20, 2022 |
# ? Mar 14, 2022 18:43 |
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redneck nazgul posted:Sure. Let's walk back through the history of this issue, loosely paraphrased because this doesn't need a bibliography and timestamps. Alright. Since the issue appears resolved now, please direct further feedback over lessons that can be learned or how things like this ought to be handled in the future in PMs to me, or wait until the next feedback thread if you'd like to discuss it publicly.
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# ? Mar 14, 2022 18:45 |
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redneck nazgul posted:Here's an idea. I actually disagree with this, the intention here is to bring attention to these organizations that purport to be charities but actually seek to empower the far-right, so that posters can know to avoid them when they spot them in the wild/warn their friends and family about these orgs e: also commieGIR while i agree with your position i think you would be well served in this thread by toning down the antagonism in your responses by say 20% or so. at its current levels I feel it risks becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy when engaging with users itt A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Mar 14, 2022 |
# ? Mar 14, 2022 21:41 |
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CommieGIR posted:edit on March 12th- (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Mar 15, 2022 02:07 |
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Tag me, please.
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# ? Mar 15, 2022 06:54 |
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ReidRansom posted:Hey do any of you know any specific charities that help animals in war-torn areas? Veterinarians Without Borders / Vétérinaires Sans Frontières seems to be mostly about helping farmers in poor/underserved areas, mostly Africa. That's great, but I'm wondering if there's something for looking after pets and livestock that get left behind in places like Ukraine now. I have been looking for this too. IFAW are supporting dog shelters: https://secure.ifaw.org/united-kingdom/emergency-in-ukraine?ms=KONDF220320020&cid=7013k000001a9YR An Ukrainian colleague put me on to this zoo which is struggling to feed and care for animals: https://12.org.ua/donate/ I've donated to them as well as to the Red Cross. lithium flour fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Mar 15, 2022 |
# ? Mar 15, 2022 11:51 |
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I was going to donate my T61 from the collection but after using it a bit to get everythign set up, I think that would be quite rude So the T410 went off to a family from Kyiv with kids who need it for school work. You will be missed.
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# ? Mar 15, 2022 19:06 |
Some folks I trust vouch for these folks. They're ferrying networking gear to Ukraine via Poland: https://nogalliance.org/our-task-forces/keep-ukraine-connected/
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# ? Mar 15, 2022 19:23 |
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I'd like a tag, please.
Space Kablooey fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Mar 15, 2022 |
# ? Mar 15, 2022 22:10 |
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Some rear end in a top hat removed my gang tags, can I get my tag back? thanks
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# ? Mar 16, 2022 02:03 |
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Tag me please
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# ? Mar 16, 2022 16:42 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 07:48 |
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Just did another 25 bucks to international rescue at work to get those matching funds. Can't screenshot it unfortunately.
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# ? Mar 16, 2022 18:08 |