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Seems to me that if one is passionate about the Hunter Biden and his schemes being prosecuted, a consistent point of view would also be passionate about how the 1/6 insurrection should be investigated and folks involved prosecuted. Both groups attempted to corrupt government processes, and both failed at their ultimate goals. I am happy the recent proposed budget has funding for continued 1/6 investigations! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2022 16:34
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:posted earlier in the thread; Facebook admitted to pushing the story down in its algorithm and Twitter admitted to stopping people from posting links to it. Well of course Facebook and Twitter algorithms have to step in to control the narrative and provide context. Who else could wade through the sea of garbage you tankies and chuds produce, retrieve valuable truths and even interpret their meaning for later generations?
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Mar 31, 2022 16:35
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Grooglon posted:Seems to me that if one is passionate about the Hunter Biden and his schemes being prosecuted, a consistent point of view would also be passionate about how the 1/6 insurrection should be investigated and folks involved prosecuted. It seems to me that enthusiasm about investigating Trumpists and insurrectionists is a good way to tell people who are really enthusiastic about fighting corruption from those who are just slurping at RWM troughs to affirm that really the Dems are the only REAL baddies.
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Mar 31, 2022 16:37
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CommieGIR posted:Was it censored or was it coming from whackadoos who openly already had shown they were untrustworthy sources of information? Like, how was it actively censored? from 3 pages back https://twitter.com/jack/status/1316528193621327876 https://twitter.com/andymstone/status/1316395902479872000
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Mar 31, 2022 16:38
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Killer robot posted:It seems to me that enthusiasm about investigating Trumpists and insurrectionists is a good way to tell people who are really enthusiastic about fighting corruption from those who are just slurping at RWM troughs to affirm that really the Dems are the only REAL baddies. It seems to me that enthusiasm about investigating Bidenists and Self-Enrichmentists is a good way to tell people who are really enthusiastic about fighting corruption from those who are just slurping at Bluecheck troughs to affirm that really the Repubs are the only REAL baddies.
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Mar 31, 2022 16:39
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Killer robot posted:It seems to me that enthusiasm about investigating Trumpists and insurrectionists is a good way to tell people who are really enthusiastic about fighting corruption from those who are just slurping at RWM troughs to affirm that really the Dems are the only REAL baddies. How do you propose to measure this?
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Mar 31, 2022 16:40
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:if they were planning on prosecuting it, I'd have no issues, but as has been agonizingly clear since approximately 1/27, the Democrats have no interest in actually doing so as a reminder, the presidential budget is a messaging document, and the message here is 'no, really, any day now Robert Mueller is going to ride in on his white horse and save the day. you hogs ate that slop up for a few years, right'
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Mar 31, 2022 16:41
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:from 3 pages back Why would a Conservative Tabloid paper have a vested interest in ensuring it was being spread far and wide and would probably be less about the context of the laptop story, and more about how the New York Post, a Murdoch run tabloid, was framing it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post#Hunter_Biden_laptop_story And was mostly how they attempted to frame it as a conspiracy around Ukraine and Hunter's actions there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biden%E2%80%93Ukraine_conspiracy_theory Its almost like it was less about how factual the laptop story was, but more about how Bannon and Giuliani were pushing it and spinning the story.
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Mar 31, 2022 16:42
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Lib and let die posted:It seems to me that enthusiasm about investigating Bidenists and Self-Enrichmentists is a good way to tell people who are really enthusiastic about fighting corruption from those who are just slurping at Bluecheck troughs to affirm that really the Repubs are the only REAL baddies. You're right! And that's why it's notable how everyone is broadly shrugging and agreeing with the idea of Hunter being investigated and prosecuted for anything he actually did, and Joe being investigated and prosecuted for anything he was actually connected to in that. And yet distinguishing that from breathless FUD clickbait about how this NEW copy of Clinton's same emails is gonna blow the lid right off the case. Just madlibbing a statement into being about other people you hate only is a sick own if it actually applies in that case too, hope that helps.
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Mar 31, 2022 16:44
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Grooglon posted:Seems to me that if one is passionate about the Hunter Biden and his schemes being prosecuted, a consistent point of view would also be passionate about how the 1/6 insurrection should be investigated and folks involved prosecuted. The argument isn't that 1/6 shouldn't be investigated, the argument is they're pouring money at it with no intentions of delivering consequences to anyone but the gullible boneheads in the crowd that day. Also if any additional government powers are granted because of this, they're guaranteed to be used against leftists first and foremost, just as the exact same talking points will be if leftists ever engage in mass protests or general strikes to force change. The left isn't arguing that government disruption is bad, the government is middle-management for corporate interests. The government should be disrupted, but not by wealthy foreign interests or far-right rabble rousers. It needs to be disrupted in a way that divorces it from the rich, produces a more equitable society, and returns control to the working class.
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Mar 31, 2022 16:45
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Killer robot posted:You're right! And that's why it's notable how everyone is broadly shrugging and agreeing with the idea of Hunter being investigated and prosecuted for anything he actually did, and Joe being investigated and prosecuted for anything he was actually connected to in that. And yet distinguishing that from breathless FUD clickbait about how this NEW copy of Clinton's same emails is gonna blow the lid right off the case. Personally, I don't care for any effort to be devoted to the defense of the government of an imperialist settler colony. Not while I have to roll coins to afford my seizure medication. eta: but that's largely the difference here - the 1/6 inquisition is about defending the settler colony's government - the Hunter stuff is about tearing it down, and that's why it's uncomfortable for certain folks.
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Mar 31, 2022 16:45
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Harold Fjord posted:How do you propose to measure this? It might be important if I was making some sort of algorithm to identify and tag self-described leftists that find the far-right to be their natural lib-owning allies. But I'm not so metrics don't seem like a priority. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2022 16:50
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CommieGIR posted:Why would a Conservative Tabloid paper have a vested interest in ensuring it was being spread far and wide and would probably be less about the context of the laptop story, and more about how the New York Post, a Murdoch run tabloid, was framing it: You asked how they were actively censoring it, and I demonstrated how. I don't think Big Tech should be censoring the news on their platforms, maybe you disagree. Should they be censoring other news stories that they find disagreeable? I don't think so, but maybe you feel differently.
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Mar 31, 2022 16:50
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CommieGIR posted:Why would a Conservative Tabloid paper have a vested interest in ensuring it was being spread far and wide and would probably be less about the context of the laptop story, and more about how the New York Post, a Murdoch run tabloid, was framing it: if putting politically favorable spin on a set of facts was punishable by media blackout, there would be no political news media. you know this.
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Mar 31, 2022 16:50
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:if putting politically favorable spin on a set of facts was punishable by media blackout, there would be no political news media. The question remains: when was a tabloid a valid source of Political News information? Is Fox News still a valid source of Political News despite not being able to actually deal in any sort of factual data? This is a bigger issue than whether this is censorship, but at was point is that 'political spin' now changing the facts? This is something that is common to both Fox News and New York Post as Murdoch groups. BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:You asked how they were actively censoring it, and I demonstrated how. Frankly? I don't give a poo poo. I'm more worried about the GOP actively censoring Gay Rights and Trans Rights than I am about the Hunter Biden story brought to you by the wonderful people at Murdoch, the makers of Fox News. Frankly, its unsurprising the fact checkers at the time thumbs downed the Hunter Biden laptop story because it was being pushed by the same people screaming about election fraud that didn't exist. New information changed that? The Feds are looking into it. Good. But at the time it was nothing more than another poo poo story being attempted to justify overthrowing an election. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Mar 31, 2022 |
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Mar 31, 2022 16:54
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CommieGIR posted:The question remains: when was a tabloid a valid source of Political News information? Is Fox News still a valid source of Political News despite not being able to actually deal in any sort of factual data? So, when I see something like, Inside Edition, or Entertainment Tonight doing reporting on the situation in Ukraine, I should immediately distrust anything there because they're televised tabloids, even if it likes up with what Official Sources are reporting? Does Inside Edition's coverage of the Ukraine refugee situation make CNN or NYT's coverage of the situation, by association of "covering the same material facts with the same material spin as a tabloid" tabloid-level coverage? Or is this where we deploy the media lit thread model of "actually that's not a source, that's a mediator!" horseshit here in the CE thread?
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Mar 31, 2022 16:56
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Lib and let die posted:So, when I see something like, Inside Edition, or Entertainment Tonight doing reporting on the situation in Ukraine, I should immediately distrust anything there because they're televised tabloids, even if it likes up with what Official Sources are reporting? Does Inside Edition's coverage of the Ukraine refugee situation make CNN or NYT's coverage of the situation, by association of "covering the same material facts with the same material spin as a tabloid" tabloid-level coverage? Or you practice your skepticism and don't trust media stories until they can be verified which is exactly what happened in the Hunter Biden story case. When it was initially being pushed back on, it was being used as a cudgel by Giuliani to justify the actions they were taking against the election. At the time, it looked like poo poo because of how it was being presented and used. But man if your sources are The New York Post, you better have some strong skepticism. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Mar 31, 2022 |
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Mar 31, 2022 17:00
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Killer robot posted:Direct question while you're here though: You haven't really established why this is different than Billy Carter, etc. Why do you think it is? Like I guess there's room for "lol and look how Jimmy's reelection went" but even if Biden goes down as hard in reelection as Carter did no one's really established why this will, or should, be high on the list of Joe Biden's many crimes, or indeed is on that list at all. Did I say that political corruption by relatives of elected officeholders hasn't existed, or try to minimize it in any way? Did I say that this is high on the list of Joe Biden's crimes, or indeed is a crime of his? I posted a story published by the Washington Post yesterday--an investigative piece that took nine months of vetting & verification from other sources, and that said Joe Biden's son & brother were being paid beaucoup bux by foreign companies (some run by criminals) at a time when Joe was vice president & continuing afterward. The story also said that federal prosecutors were looking into aspects of the business deals that suggested money-laundering & influence-peddling. This is a big story that hints at larger stories to come, to the chagrin of those trying to write it off as a rightwing smear over dick pics & drugs. Aside: I also don't understand why everyone keeps focusing on Hunter when it was James doing his stellar impression of Oscar Bluth all these years.  (While searching for that pic I came across a ProPublica story titled The Benefits of Being Joe Biden’s Brother.)
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Mar 31, 2022 17:05
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An important thing to remember vis a vis "censorship" (I think LT mentioned it yesterday) is that the media faces certain amounts of liability for reporting on hacked/stolen material that it does not face for reporting on an abandoned laptop, and so the actual abandoned-laptop story being impossible to confirm* means that there are legal issues involved with reporting on its contents. Now, this is a bad law, because if there was actually evidence of the President doing something illegal or deeply troubling that was recovered from a hacked iCloud account, it should be 100% legal to report on it. But it is what the law is, and it's what mainstream outlets are taking into account in reporting or not reporting aspects of the story (particularly the more pornographic ones). * I think it would actually be very possible to confirm that the laptop is actually fake, and it probably has been, but not in an ironclad enough way to report confidently - i.e., any files on the laptop that are personally identifiable as being property of Hunter were also stored on his iCloud account at the time it was hacked, with a lack of any local files relating to his legal work, or non-cloud pictures, or records of other email accounts he's used.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:05
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Killer robot posted:It might be important if I was making some sort of algorithm to identify and tag self-described leftists that find the far-right to be their natural lib-owning allies. But I'm not so metrics don't seem like a priority. This has a built-in assumption that the leftists aren’t interested in actual change and thus harangue liberals because they are a few steps away from becoming leftists. If you just build that charitable assumption into your model things look pretty different! But if the only lens you view politics through is aesthetic, about who owns who rhetorically, and you have internalized the kind of powerlessness that the ruling class hopes you have, then yes, your perspective might make sense. And FWIW I have more in common with a far right voter who earns a paycheck than I do with AOC, Biden, Sanders, Manchin, or any GOP pol you can name. You do too, but our society has been heavily propagandized to make that seem unlikely. But in your day to day life, the challenges you face, the guy rolling coal is your peer, not those politicians.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:06
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CommieGIR posted:Or you practice your skepticism and don't trust media stories until they can be verified which is exactly what happened in the Hunter Biden story case. The only story that was getting run about the Hunter laptop and the Biden family's corruption on anything but right-wing media when it would have been relevant wasn't about how "the investigation into the voracity of these claims is ongoing," it was outright, full throated propaganda messaging that "giving any thoughtspace to this accusation of blatant corruption is doing a Russian disinformatzia and now is not the time because MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION OF OUR LIVES!". It's almost too convenient that "Oh, hey, look at that, there is some legitimacy to this story!" has come out now almost an entire year after the election, and with just enough time 'til the next election cycle for it to drop off of most peoples' radars when the election cycle starts up again.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:06
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Lib and let die posted:The only story that was getting run about the Hunter laptop and the Biden family's corruption on anything but right-wing media when it would have been relevant wasn't about how "the investigation into the voracity of these claims is ongoing," it was outright, full throated propaganda messaging that "giving any thoughtspace to this accusation of blatant corruption is doing a Russian disinformatzia and now is not the time because MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION OF OUR LIVES!". None of that matters now because everyone is focused on the corrupt family who they need to solve all their problems. Why do corrupt people keep ending up in positions of being our only savior? Don't know. Why do they constantly fail to deliver the promises they make? Don't know. But what I do know is that we need to keep electing them or else the corrupt family who won't save us will win.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:09
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Lib and let die posted:The only story that was getting run about the Hunter laptop and the Biden family's corruption on anything but right-wing media when it would have been relevant wasn't about how "the investigation into the voracity of these claims is ongoing," it was outright, full throated propaganda messaging that "giving any thoughtspace to this accusation of blatant corruption is doing a Russian disinformatzia and now is not the time because MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION OF OUR LIVES!". The question is did they get that from the laptop or the hack of his iCloud account, which the Russian's were actively hacking and spreading hacks during the 2020 election to help directly influence it, as well as establish a weaker West to enable the invasion actively ongoing in Ukraine right now, which was already in full planning mode at the time. The other question is: How much of the legitimacy mattered at the time it was being spread? In reality, I don't think its legitimacy mattered because it wasn't some one off piece, it was being used in combination with accusations of Voter Fraud to prove that the elected Democratic Leader was invalid and that the GOP was justified in trying to overturn the election. The laptop was not a standalone story yet, it was just another bullet point in a GOP election conspiracy. As a standalone: Yes, it appears to have some legitimacy. As it was being used: The legitimacy didn't matter. In fact it had more in common with outright Whataboutism because the idea that the GOP cared about Hunter Biden's laptop or Democratic corruption as Kushner and the Trump kids ran wild with Federal funds is hilarious. It was practically pure projection. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Mar 31, 2022 |
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Mar 31, 2022 17:10
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CommieGIR posted:Frankly, its unsurprising the fact checkers at the time thumbs downed the Hunter Biden laptop story because it was being pushed by the same people screaming about election fraud that didn't exist. New information changed that? The Feds are looking into it. Good. But at the time it was nothing more than another poo poo story being attempted to justify overthrowing an election. The fact-checkers blocked the story before the election, not after.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:11
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CommieGIR posted:The question is did they get that from the laptop or the hack of his iCloud account, which the Russian's were actively hacking and spreading hacks during the 2020 election to help directly influence it, as well as establish a weaker West to enable the invasion actively ongoing in Ukraine right now, which was already in full planning mode at the time. And we're back to the Russiagate nonsense again. I have nothing new or original to add to russiagate other than "lol" so I'm just going to bow out at this point. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2022 17:11
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CommieGIR posted:The question remains: when was a tabloid a valid source of Political News information? Is Fox News still a valid source of Political News despite not being able to actually deal in any sort of factual data? as it turns out: this time it was, through whatever dumbass (almost definitely Giuliani) at the Trump campaign decided that the best way to get the laptop story out there was through the Post. and right now, 'this whole thing is made up' has shown to be a far more egregious changing of the facts than the right wing tabloid's presentation. there's room in political discussions for Noble Lies, of course- things like 'Iraq has weapons of mass destruction,' 'masks don't actually work so dont try to get any,' or 'Joe Biden will close the concentration camps.' Blatant falsehoods, presented to make people act in a way more amenable to their leaders' desires. the problem is that after you stack up enough of them, people stop believing you, and start going places where they can at least get more satisfying lies. And when you let those places -also- report some things more accurately than you do, because the truth was politically inconvenient for you? they are going to end zone dance on you and they'll be right to do so. welcome to the crisis of legitimacy in declining empires: the lies have gotten so dense and contradictory that outright propaganda outfits can and will regularly expose the party line as an outright fabrication. and the only solution to the problem is asking someone else to shut them up.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:12
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Willa Rogers posted:The fact-checkers blocked the story before the election, not after. Yeah, that's part of my point: The GOP was already winding up the 'Election Fraud/Dems Unfit to Lead/Stolen Election' machine well before the election even started. Lib and let die posted:And we're back to the Russiagate nonsense again. Do you really believe Russia played no part in any sort of election fraud nonsense? If so, at this point I'd argue its just as much a laughable ignorance as you guys claiming that Hunter Biden's laptop matters. Both can matter and be true. And we're talking about 2020, not 2016.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:13
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah, that's part of my point: The GOP was already winding up the 'Election Fraud/Dems Unfit to Lead/Stolen Election' machine well before the election even started. "But the Russians" is a poor defense of a program of mass censorship on behalf of Joe Biden, op. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2022 17:18
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I gotta say if you want to see the president's son's dick this is a good time to be alive.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:18
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and right now, 'this whole thing is made up' has shown to be a far more egregious changing of the facts than the right wing tabloid's presentation. (Also, I can easily see that nobody ITT is arguing it right now, which makes me question why you keep bringing it up.) As for the emails that require further followup ("kickback for the big guy," "I look forward to meeting your father"), those were reported on in mainstream news outlets months ago, and nothing suggesting they're tied to real crimes has been produced. And to be clear, you are alleging that "this is nothing" is farther from the truth than "this proves Joe Biden is a foreign agent trying to defraud the United States," which is the true right wing media position, and both (A) a pretty clear "no puppet, you're the puppet" and (B) completely unsupported by evidence. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Mar 31, 2022 |
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Mar 31, 2022 17:18
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Just to be clear, the same posters that said they "don't give a gently caress about January 6th trials or convictions of executive branch staff that planned it" want Hunter Biden investigated and prosecuted to expose corruption? The self-described extreme leftists here are circling around to being indistinguishable from the far right, down to the constant use of the once thread banned phrase "the democrat party". (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Mar 31, 2022 |
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Mar 31, 2022 17:32
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah, that's part of my point: The GOP was already winding up the 'Election Fraud/Dems Unfit to Lead/Stolen Election' machine well before the election even started. The amount of influence Russia had in 2020 to generate outcomes you don’t like is dwarfed by the amount of influenced American oligarchs had to do the same. It’s not even comparable. They may have influenced the election, but that’s just mystification compared to the level at which American billionaires tainted it.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:36
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Push El Burrito posted:I gotta say if you want to see the president's son's dick this is a good time to be alive. The first & last U.S. president's son dick I ever wanted to glimpse was JFK Jr.'s--when he was a grown-rear end ADULT, not a casket-saluting 3 yr old.  I know he was supposed to be dumb as a box of rocks (and flying himself into a fatal fog only buttressed that claim) but dang, he was a fine hunk of a man. *** Back to current events: Garcetti's appointment as ambassador to India is in trouble, thanks to his sexual-harassing buddy Rick Jacobs, although the State Dept. is making the argument that he NEEDS to be appointed now bc RUSSIA. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2022 17:53
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As a reminder, if anyone would like to argue with other D&D US posters but find this thread's rules stifling, the CCCC USPol thread may be of interest.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:56
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Willa Rogers posted:Back to current events: Garcetti's appointment as ambassador to India is in trouble, thanks to his sexual-harassing buddy Rick Jacobs, although the State Dept. is making the argument that he NEEDS to be appointed now bc RUSSIA. Of course Garcetti, like Neera Tanden, has powerful friends, so he's probably going to get more effort put behind his nom than he deserves.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:57
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selec posted:The amount of influence Russia had in 2020 to generate outcomes you don’t like is dwarfed by the amount of influenced American oligarchs had to do the same. It’s not even comparable. Given that we know the GOP was directly involved in discussions with Russia around how to enable it: Eh, I wouldn't say dwarfed. A lot of those same American oligarchs were caught with their hands in the Russian cookie jar.
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Mar 31, 2022 17:59
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CommieGIR posted:Given that we know the GOP was directly involved in discussions with Russia around how to enable it: Eh, I wouldn't say dwarfed. A lot of those same American oligarchs were caught with their hands in the Russian cookie jar. I mean, they’re definitely in direct conversations with the American money men too, not sure why Russia makes it worse unless you’re actually experiencing Nationalist Feelings in 2022. I’d welcome any invader if they gave us universal health care.
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Mar 31, 2022 18:22
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selec posted:I mean, they’re definitely in direct conversations with the American money men too, not sure why Russia makes it worse unless you’re actually experiencing Nationalist Feelings in 2022. Any invader?
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Mar 31, 2022 18:38
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Koos Group posted:Any invader? I guess if we got invaded by the United States in some kind of interdimensional or time travel gently caress up I would pick up arms and fight to my last breath, because you know those bastards don’t believe in universal health care
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Mar 31, 2022 18:41
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selec posted:I mean, they’re definitely in direct conversations with the American money men too, not sure why Russia makes it worse unless you’re actually experiencing Nationalist Feelings in 2022. Given that Russia is largely the desired end state the GOP and US Oligarchy wants for the US: Don't think that's the invaders you want.
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Mar 31, 2022 18:42
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