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Why are you pulling the clutch when you brake Why do you think coasting on a shut throttle is a style? poo poo riding is not a style The diagrams have confused the situation for me ngl.
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Apr 2, 2022 20:20
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Slavvy posted:Why are you pulling the clutch when you brake ffs. I'm not pulling the clutch in when I brake. That's the point. I roll off the throttle. I brake at the same time. When the throttle gets to 10% it creates a lurch as it goes to idle fueling. Finger Prince is telling me I can avoid the lurch by using the clutch. I don't really get what he is talking about. I can either have the clutch engaged when the lurch happens, or I can have it disengaged when the lurch happens. To avoid the lurch by using the clutch, I would have to have it disengaged when the throttle hits 10% open or so. If I have the clutch disengaged when throttle hits 10%, then I'm not going to be doing any engine braking. Instead I will have to brake using only my brakes.
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Apr 2, 2022 20:35
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sounds like your throttle position sensor is out of adjustment or worn. Could also be MAP sensor and or idle control valve related. While you're in there check the integrity of your coolant temp sensor since you're not saying that this improves when engine coolant is cold or hot. There's no details here and you are fixating on the guard rail, not the corner that you should be looking into. Clutch in when coming to a stop when the engine's rpm approaches its idle speed in the lowest gear. Otherwise clutch stays engaged for your use case. Also. The clutch is not a binary device*. It can be operated with some slip factor in a analog pulse width modulated kind of way to tune out whatever is going wrong with your engine and its engine management system. This is a crutch, not a solution. Fix your EMS. * Don't do this with a dry clutch unless you like replacing clutches.
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Apr 2, 2022 20:49
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Mirconium posted:ffs. I'm not pulling the clutch in when I brake. That's the point. I roll off the throttle. I brake at the same time. When the throttle gets to 10% it creates a lurch as it goes to idle fueling. Post a video, I genuinely don't understand the problem. The throttle doesn't go to idle fueling on tps position alone. The efi cuts fuel off entirely if you're on a shut throttle and above a certain rpm, usually like 2500. Below that it starts to inject fuel again because it's nearing idle rpm. So I guess the solution is to rev the bike more cause it isn't a truck? Again, I'm not entirely understanding the problem.
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Apr 2, 2022 21:02
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If you're decelerating, use the clutch when you come to a stop so the engine doesn't lug or threaten to stall out. You know this. Don't overthink it. I'm not saying anything new or different there. If you're going so slow in traffic that you're having to roll on and off in 1st gear a lot, your clutch is going to be partially engaged a lot. Just use it to smooth out the natural surging of the engine. What that looks like depends entirely on the bike. Now, if your bike is doing some weird surge where it lunges or something while braking, that's fuckin weird and I don't know what to say. It probably shouldn't do that.
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Apr 2, 2022 21:04
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Mirconium posted:ffs. I'm not pulling the clutch in when I brake. That's the point. I roll off the throttle. I brake at the same time. When the throttle gets to 10% it creates a lurch as it goes to idle fueling. That doesn't seem right to me. What happens if you are, say, cruising along at 5000 RPM and 40 mph and you just close the throttle? No downshifting, no braking, not creeping along near idle. Just smoothly close the throttle as you are going down the road and let the compression braking take over. Does it lurch?
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Apr 2, 2022 21:39
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Nvm
Russian Bear fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Apr 2, 2022 |
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Apr 2, 2022 21:45
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sounds like hes iust letting off the throttle and not downshifting, lol that would definitely cause some wack lurching at a higher gear when your rpm drops low enough
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Apr 2, 2022 21:48
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Could be I guess. I second the request for a video of it happening.
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Apr 2, 2022 21:50
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maybe he needs to tweak his carburetor??? kidding
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Apr 2, 2022 21:53
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Either the problem wouldn't be there if he had a carburettor, or it would be because the problem is the nut between the handlebars. Hard to tell without exculpating/damning gopro footage.
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Apr 2, 2022 22:00
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My MT-03 definitely has an annoying lurch when I go on or off the throttle at speed (switch from on the gas to coasting or vice versa) but I assumed that was backlash in the drivetrain, since it would be going from tension in one direction to tension in the other. I'm a new rider and I don't know poo poo though.
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Apr 2, 2022 22:29
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Yeah I kinda wonder if Mirconium's problem is actually just a loose chain or fragged cush drive or something. Go-Pro! Go-Pro! Go-Pro!
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Apr 2, 2022 22:37
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FBS posted:The DRZ has one (1) carburetor. A grown rear end man is not allowed to be scared of a single carburetor. Or a woman. Or a baby. Ok, maybe the baby. But only because petrol is carcinogenic and they don’t make baby sized nitrile gloves. HenryJLittlefinger posted:Can we just have a carb thread and a rule that you can’t post about carbs anywhere until you post in the carb thread and testify that you’ve read the whole thing?
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Apr 2, 2022 23:13
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Sagebrush posted:Yeah I kinda wonder if Mirconium's problem is actually just a loose chain or fragged cush drive or something. How much backlash is "normal"? Mine is a new bike so I imagine it's supposed to be like that but it definitely makes it feel twitchy.
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Apr 2, 2022 23:17
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Ok look. If your chain is adjusted right and the bike hasn't got other problems, and driveline lash is a big problem for you, it's because you're going on and off the throttle way too often. Which is a common thing for learners. Realistically the only time you'll feel the driveline lash is at very low speeds when the bike is barely loaded; if you're going from throttle to braking your don't notice it cause the other forces are so much bigger, if you're going from brakes to throttle you should be at high enough revs that the lash is very brief. Really the only time you'll get it badly is if you have a habit of coasting around on a shut throttle, which is crap riding and therefore not relevant to the bike designer.
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Apr 2, 2022 23:25
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Well, Mr "I'm going to be combative for absolutely no loving reason to someone who said they were new and asked a simple question," if I'm going 40mph and I need to make small adjustments to my speed or keep a steady distance to the vehicle in front of me, I'm going on and off the throttle. Now the answer to that might be "that will go away when you start to have better throttle control" but you don't have to tell me I'm a crap rider. I know I'm a crap rider - I've been doing this for 400 miles and I don't know what it's supposed to feel like yet. The answer might also be "the dealership didn't adjust your chain correctly" which is why I asked.
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Apr 3, 2022 02:14
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I was told newbie thread is the safe zone, everywhere else is the firing range. If the rules have changed JSB will tell me. As to your issue: try slowing without shutting it fully. It's possible to reduce throttle percentage enough that the bike slows, but the chain stays tense in the drive direction because it's still being driven, just not enough to prevent the bike decelerating. Also, using the rear brake for fine speed modulation at low speeds is the key, you can't do it with throttle alone. At very slow speeds it's second gear + rear brake + slipping the poo poo out of the clutch. At the speed you're describing, if you just momentarily need to slow a bit it's totally fine to just use the rear brake to fight the engine for a bit if it's less disruptive than shutting the throttle. If your find yourself constantly going on-off to maintain a low speed because it's difficult to keep it steady on the throttle (every bike has an emissions lean spot somewhere and if it lines up with a certain gear/speed it can be maddening to try to keep it steady), try using the rear brake instead of shutting every time. There is also nothing stopping you from checking chain tension yourself and learning something, relying on the dealer to do stuff right is a fools errand.
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Apr 3, 2022 02:29
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Okay, thanks for the effort post. Yeah, I think the issue is that the low end of the throttle is all dead so when I try to feather the throttle, it ends up being more like an on-off switch. I'm trying to drive it like a car and that isn't always working well. I figured it was probably just my motor memory not being developed enough to be properly ginger with the throttle but it really sounds like bikes don't actually use the throttle for fine control at all like you would in a car. Maybe I need to take another class. Is there a youtube channel or something that covers bad newbie habits? Edit: I kind of feel like even though this isn't the newbie thread, it's a very newbie heavy thread since new people are going to asking what to buy. Double Edit: At least the throttle down low is more useful than on the Honda sportbike I learned on in the MSF class. That thing would go directly from fully shut to 4k RPM with nothing in between. The instructor stalled it twice. KillHour fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Apr 3, 2022 |
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Apr 3, 2022 02:41
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Bikes have significantly better throttle fidelity than any car. It's just that to get that control, you need to be in the engine's happy zone, which on an mt03 starts at like 5,000. Whereas your average car is basically a tractor compared to a bike, even supposedly sporty cars will still pull from near idle and respond well at low rpm because they have very conservative porting and cam timing, heavy flywheels, accessories to drive, massive inefficient drivetrain and the weight of the car itself damping things out and so on. Try just forcing yourself to be one gear down from how you usually ride. You won't hurt anything and your fuel economy will be unaffected. You don't need to be constantly hunting for the highest viable gear at any given speed, the bike is built to rev so let it do that. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Apr 3, 2022 |
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Apr 3, 2022 02:48
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Slavvy posted:Try just forcing yourself to be one gear down from how you usually ride. You won't hurt anything and your fuel economy will be unaffected. I'm still in the break-in period and the instruction manual says "if the bike's engine goes over 7000, it will explode,"* so that's probably it and it will get better when I'm able to drive it "properly." *It actually says "Avoid prolonged operation above 7000" but you know.
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Apr 3, 2022 02:52
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If you ask me the worst newbie offence I've seen you make is calling it 'driving' cause all it does is drive me insane 
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Apr 3, 2022 02:55
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Slavvy posted:If you ask me the worst newbie offence I've seen you make is calling it 'driving' cause all it does is drive me insane I was thinking about that earlier - why are bikes "riden" and cars "driven"? I think I'm going to stick with whatever causes you the most physical discomfort though.
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Apr 3, 2022 02:56
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I don't know why one is one and the other is the other but that's how it is now dammit
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Apr 3, 2022 03:01
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Slavvy posted:I don't know why one is one and the other is the other but that's how it is now dammit When I say "I rode my bike" people think I literally mean I pedaled there though so that's kind of inconvenient to explain.
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Apr 3, 2022 03:03
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KillHour posted:When I say "I rode my bike" people think I literally mean I pedaled there though so that's kind of inconvenient to explain.  America is a strange and frightening place
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Apr 3, 2022 03:09
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KillHour posted:I was thinking about that earlier - why are bikes "riden" and cars "driven"? Because you ride on top of a motorcycle, like a horse, but you drive a car, like a carriage. KillHour posted:When I say "I rode my bike" people think I literally mean I pedaled there though so that's kind of inconvenient to explain. just say you rode your motorcycle. you don't have to always call it a "bike" re. your earlier post KillHour posted:if I'm going 40mph and I need to make small adjustments to my speed or keep a steady distance to the vehicle in front of me, I'm going on and off the throttle. You shouldn't be going fully on and off the throttle in that situation. You might be rolling the throttle up and down to adjust your speed, sure -- but you always need a little power to maintain speed, so there is no need to be closing it completely. That transition from power to engine braking (or coasting) is what unloads the chain/driveline and makes it feel a little jerky, especially if you do it suddenly and especially if your chain needs to be tensioned (common for newbies). If you're fully closing the throttle to modulate your cruise speed, you need to work on throttle control. Think of how people move when they do martial arts katas. Smooth, purposeful action with intent, flowing from one position to another. If you use the throttle that way, you will greatly decrease jerkiness in the power/coast/engine braking transition. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Apr 3, 2022 |
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Apr 3, 2022 03:10
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Akshully I'm a gunkata grand master and I think you'll find violently lurching from one state to another like a potato sack thrown off a loading dock is, in fact, what performance looks like and bikes are exactly the same. In all seriousness when Freddie Spencer was still running his riding school directly he would spend one session just teaching people to close the throttle at slowly as possible because literally everyone slams it shut until they're told otherwise.
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Apr 3, 2022 03:13
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time to post the best freddie spencer video again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj0UjUo5Jsw
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Apr 3, 2022 03:17
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KillHour posted:I was thinking about that earlier - why are bikes "riden" and cars "driven"? It seems to be related to the intimacy of the contact between vehicle and operator. Consider a horse, you ride it when you're sitting on its back but you drive it when you're tugging the reins from a buggy being pulled behind it.
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Apr 3, 2022 03:28
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Lol, no GoPro unfortunately, that CBR got stolen like 9 months ago.  Rides like a peach, can confirm throttle is smoother than the CBR. Can also confirm that compared to Baltimore/DMV California highways are full of aggressive nutjobs. Gonna be a goooooood spring 
DearSirXNORMadam fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Apr 3, 2022 |
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Apr 3, 2022 03:32
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Sagebrush posted:Because you ride on top of a motorcycle, like a horse, but you drive a car, like a carriage. I think it comes down to, as slavvy said, the gear I'm in. In these situations, I'm not very much on the throttle to maintain my speed, and loosening the throttle the tiniest bit falls into the "valley" where the bike just completely cuts out. It's a very pronounced change - like an on/off switch. Like I literally make the smallest motion with my hand that I'm able to; it just feels like I can't get the bike to go into the sweet spot for throttle and it's very frustrating. I thought that was just me not having good enough muscle memory yet, but being in a lower gear so I have more physical range to use on the throttle makes sense. I'll figure out how to check my chain, too, since I figured the shop would have done that correctly as part of the $400 they charged me to take it out of the box, but looking back I should have known better. KillHour fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Apr 3, 2022 |
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Apr 3, 2022 03:37
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Echoing the "down one gear" advice, it took a little work to internalize but it makes the bike handle so much better. Also I find I tend to run my car at a bit higher engine speed now and it helps there, too! The manual will tell you about chain tightness and there may also be a sticker on the swing arm with details.
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Apr 3, 2022 03:56
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I'm a bad rider so take this with salt, but the on/off switch might actually be a good analogy here with the addition of a third setting- irrespective of RPM you're also either decelerating, holding steady, or accelerating. If your hand's not developed fine control, you might always be accelerating a little or decelerating. And transitioning between those states is inherently unsettling because they're accompanied by suspension changes I'm unqualified to detail. So if that's what you're actually talking about, it's not the throttle itself that's troubling you, but moving back and forth between these modes. So:KillHour posted:keep a steady distance to the vehicle in front of me
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Apr 3, 2022 04:00
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Remy Marathe posted:I'm a bad rider so take this with salt, but the on/off switch might actually be a good analogy here with the addition of a third setting- irrespective of RPM you're also either decelerating, holding steady, or accelerating. If your hand's not developed fine control, you might always be accelerating a little or decelerating. And transitioning between those states is inherently unsettling because they're accompanied by suspension changes I'm unqualified to detail. So if that's what you're actually talking about, it's not the throttle itself that's troubling you, but moving back and forth between these modes. So: Sexy Sean Connery gets it. I was just going to say, rather than accelerating and braking with the car in front of you, hang back, figure out what their dumbfuck driver comfort zone speed is and just do that. Wrt to the 'third setting', that's really the key to understanding what the gently caress. You are taught prescriptive ways of using the throttle and brakes, when in reality those methods are arrived at by brilliant people starting at what the bike needs to work properly and working backwards from there. This is later translated into meat sounds which are used to devise training techniques and engineering improvements. It's better to understand what's actually happening to the bike, so when you learn technique you understand what the goal is rather than riding by rote and crashing for seemingly no reason. The idea is to use the bike's weight to load the tires and suspension appropriately for whether you're slowing down, going at a steady speed, or accelerating. You do this by causing the bike to pitch using the controls. The bike has four (4) modes, period: 1. Steady speed, neither accelerating nor decelerating. This is the 'ideal' state, the weight is distributed such that most of the load is being carried by the rear tire, but with a decent percentage for the front wheel. This means good load on the rear tire for traction, partial load on the front tire for steering authority and stability at speed. Provided setup is ideal, the suspension is partially compressed on the rear, slightly compressed on the front. The bike in this state has maximum stability and resistance to weaving and shaking. Front and rear contact patches are 'normal' size. 2. Acceleration. Acceleration varies based on input and engine character but generally the more throttle you use = the more weight is shifted to the rear. Under hard acceleration the rear suspension is compressed a good 2/3rd's, the front is almost completely extended or even off the ground. This means excellent drive traction to put down all the power and squirm over ripples and bumps, but almost no steering authority at all, and no front-end stability meaning the bars and front wheel are often free to wiggle like mad. The more throttle you use, the more weight moves to the rear, the less steering you've got. The rear contact patch is very large, the front small. 3. Braking. Like acceleration, it varies based on input, brake potency, bike weight. Braking causes the bike to pitch forward and load the front end at the expense of the rear. Under the hardest braking, the front suspension compresses about 80% (some travel must be held in reserve to maintain grip over ripples), while the rear unloads to the point where it's acting as an outrigger for stability and nothing more. This means excellent traction for braking and improved turning, because fork dive steepens the steering. The result of that interaction means that slight braking improves turning, but lots of braking makes it impossible because the tyre can't do both jobs at once. Under hard braking the front contact patch is big, the rear small. 4. Coasting. In this mode you have no control except what you intend to crash into. Most of the bike's weight is toward the front, but not enough to create a significant increase in grip, while the rear suspension is partially unloaded. This means the front suspension isn't 'ready' to deal with bumps, but there's still enough load on the front to cause a crash if you've got some lean on. The rear suspension is sort of free to float around, so any bumps that cause the bike to pitch invariable cause geometry changes which cause wobbles. The front contact patch is slightly enlarged, the rear much smaller, total grip is reduced. Whether you're accelerating or decelerating is down to how steep a hill you're on and the bike's mechanical properties, you have no actual control of your speed or tire traction. The one time this is useful is when you're changing direction from side to side or turning in rapidly and you want to briefly load the front a bit as you pitch in, but a drag of the brake is inappropriate/too much. Everyone coasts in traffic cause traffic is tiring and dumb, that doesn't make it good or right but it's understandable. A key takeaway from the above wall of text is that when you're using one wheel, the other wheel 'doesn't matter' ie if you're accelerating hard, you can't really lose the front because it's not carrying any weight; it will skip and skitter and run wide but as long as you don't shut throttle or run off the edge of the road, you can't really fall. Provided you have the space, as you reduce lean angle the front will stop shaking and settle on it's own, and if you're upright then it literally doesn't matter because the bike will go straight even if the front isn't touching aka wheelies. Likewise, if you're braking hard and the rear starts to waggle around, there is a large margin of error before the wag puts you well and truly out of shape. As you add lean and reduce braking, load on the rear will increase gradually and bring it back into line. The idea is to transition between states as smoothly as possible, at the right time in the corner. So you gradually go from braking (if you need to brake) to not at all as you add lean, then you crack the throttle enough that the bike moves at a steady speed. If you didn't need to slow down at all, just do all of the above on steady throttle. At this point you maintain speed and lean and wait until the corner starts to open or, if it's just a brief turn, immediately start accelerating at whatever rate matches the widening of your line, which gradually loads the rear while unloading the front. Magic! E: I should add that was extremely difficult because of the number of caveats and exceptions and other interactions I didn't mention but this is the simplified model 
Slavvy fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Apr 3, 2022 |
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Apr 3, 2022 05:09
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All I’m gonna say is just go out and keep practicing. At 400mi you haven’t developed enough muscle memory for much of anything yet except not falling over. I know it’s cold some places but if you’re just toodling in the parking lot you don’t need too much warm gear. Some useful advice I used for my practice: Break it down to elemental components. This means that if you are practicing emergency braking, practice a dozen runs trying to stop with just the rear brake WITHOUT activating your ABS; then practice just the front, same thing, no ABS or if it activates then just as you came to a stop. Bonus points if you can do a lil stoppie with your ABS engaged. Then combine the two, you’ll probably notice your rear abs going off so you’ll have to recalibrate how you’re doing rear braking and backing off pressure as you’re about to come to a stop. Pick a stopping point and try to reduce your stopping distance from a set speed (20, 25 etc) Now that you can actually stop, shift up to 2nd gear as you perform your run into emergency stop and also get your other foot to shift you down into 1st as you’re doing all the stuff I described above. For throttle and clutch control, do tight circle using the clutch to modulate the power (keep revs higher) input. Then do tight circle using just the throttle (no clutch or rear brake). Then add rear brake to just throttle. Now you can mix ALL the inputs depending on what you’re trying to do, if the uturn doesn’t need to be tight then no need for rear brake. Wanna practice smooth downshifting and rev matching or stopping? Same thing, find a place where you can go through first 3 gears at high enough rpm so that you actually need to rev match sufficiently. Come to a smooth stop and then take off? Etc etc Get excellent at basics. Edit: Having said ALL that, beginner/cheaper bikes even from excellent companies like Yamaha/Honda will have snatchy throttles due to the mentioned efficiency compliance stuff and having a cable throttle attached to a small engine. Russian Bear fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Apr 3, 2022 |
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Apr 3, 2022 07:10
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On top of the great advice above, if you're a beginner (and I'd imagine most riders/drivers anyway) you probably corner in a reactive way. As in, increasing the amount of lean because you're not matching the turn's radius at the point you're currently at. Instead you want to be proactively assessing the corner, looking for the apex where you'll be turning hardest, trying to judge how hard that turn will be, and braking into the turn right up to that point. I also think the people complaining about on/off throttle fuelling above should try a different grip like maybe the ice cream grip, it's not completely my thing but does give much finer control over the twist grip.
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Apr 3, 2022 17:53
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One of the best drills I was shown in an MSF course was keeping the bike in first gear, the throttle open more than was comfortable, and going through a series of maneuvers using only the clutch to modulate speed, no brakes allowed.
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Apr 3, 2022 18:50
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I will say, SV650 is overall very good, the throttle feels good, clutch is pretty good, front brake is basically fine I guess. The rear brake? Complete dogshit. I can barely feel it, I don't think it even COULD lock up, even if I pulled the ABS fuse. I don't know if it's just this bike in particular or all SVs but like daaaaamn Suzuki. What's the order of upgrades for something like that? Pads, lines, master cylinder, upgrade in order until brake feels ok? (The fluid is completely fresh, the dealer put it in yesterday, so I doubt it's air in the lines or anything)
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Apr 4, 2022 01:45
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Mirconium posted:I will say, SV650 is overall very good, the throttle feels good, clutch is pretty good, front brake is basically fine I guess.  The order you described is the order to go for sure.
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Apr 4, 2022 03:56
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