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The biggest problem with the "Dems aren't talking about inflation or high prices" narrative is that they are talking about inflation and high prices. https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1491868921879740420 https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1491926713252691973 https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1498848538108833800 https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1501959821368737792 This is a good learning moment to be aware of the way that news media, popular media, and social media all work to filter our awareness. Just because you haven't seen or heard people talking about something doesn't mean that it's not being talked about at all - it typically just means that the media sources you choose to follow haven't bothered to put much focus on it.
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Apr 5, 2022 21:48
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VitalSigns posted:we're looking at the last Democrat controlled federal government for our lifetimes. There's no need to primary bad dems anymore
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Apr 5, 2022 21:49
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Mellow Seas posted:This is the current events thread, so I'm talking about the current president. I'm not gonna go dig up a bunch of posts from over the last six months claiming that Biden signing the infrastructure bill without BBB passed first proves that he secretly didn't ever want BBB to pass, but I know that I read them. So when you said quote:Or when you say that the President spent months lobbying for a policy he secretly wanted to fail the entire time. it wasn't something I actually said, lol. Just as I thought.
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Apr 5, 2022 21:50
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Main Paineframe posted:The biggest problem with the "Dems aren't talking about inflation or high prices" narrative is that they are talking about inflation and high prices. It's also a good learning moment about mixed messaging, because there are just as many tweets emanating from the WH & official Dem mouthpieces about Best Jobs Job Ever! and Blame the Dang Russkies for Those Gas Prices!
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Apr 5, 2022 21:52
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Willa Rogers posted:it wasn't something I actually said, lol. Just as I thought. Willa Rogers posted:On the bright side, voters have internalized the Rotating Villains strategy rather than the party's M.O. for the last decade-plus. Just a couple bad apples, nothing that Voting Harder can't fix!
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Apr 5, 2022 21:52
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Mellow Seas posted:You just implied on the last page that voters are stupid rubes for thinking Manchin and Sinema were to blame for BBB are not passing, which is why we're talking about it. Are you serious right now? Can you just have a normal discussion instead of being a Democrat fanboy who stiffles negative discussions and attacks people for it? Willa posted a current event, you made a comment, they replied, and now you're flipping out. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 5, 2022 21:54
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Mellow Seas posted:You just implied on the last page that voters are stupid rubes for thinking Manchin and Sinema were to blame for BBB are not passing, which is why we're talking about it. Are you serious right now? Not All Voters; just Dem loyalists like the millie quoted in the focus group. The Black voters were less inclined to think it was a situational problem, I gathered from the write-up. My bad for extrapolating a party-wide sentiment from one voter's feedback--although I could find plenty of agreement for that sentiment if it'd make you feel better, even among this very forum! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 5, 2022 21:56
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Is there really anything that can be done about price increases if the inputs for goods are getting more expensive? Like, gas isn't going to go down while extraction is screwed in Russia/Ukraine, there's no short-term solution to transport costs for literally every thing going up. On top of that, you have China shutting everything down over COVID cases for like a month that wasn't anything to do with the US's decisions. At the end of the day, it's all just the "president desk levers" mindset to think there is some obvious solution to a lack of supply. That isn't to say that the government couldn't do more in general, or that the total lack of progress from Congress is good or acceptable, but there are a lot of things we are essentially in "global rationing" mode for (e.g. computer parts, chemical precursors, shipping capacity, construction workers) that have knock-on effects. I don't think the general malaise is solvable because there isn't any country immune to the current doldrums - what policy should we be pursuing right now (out of options with even a ghost of a chance, not "nationalizing housing" or whatever)?
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Apr 5, 2022 21:59
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Willa Rogers posted:It's also a good learning moment about mixed messaging, because there are just as many tweets emanating from the WH & official Dem mouthpieces about Best Jobs Job Ever! and Blame the Dang Russkies for Those Gas Prices! That isn't mixed messaging, none of those messages are contradictory.
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Apr 5, 2022 21:59
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VitalSigns posted:Sinema also came right out and said there are more democrats hiding behind her skirts so we know rotating villain theory is true. "Lots of people agree with me, don't be mad because I'm the only one brave enough to say it!": famously never used by people being called out for lovely stances. I mean, if rotating villain theory is true, no evidence for it is provided by Sinema defending against well-deserved criticism by saying that other Dems are with her, out of frame, laughing.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:03
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BougieBitch posted:Is there really anything that can be done about price increases if the inputs for goods are getting more expensive? Like, gas isn't going to go down while extraction is screwed in Russia/Ukraine, there's no short-term solution to transport costs for literally every thing going up. On top of that, you have China shutting everything down over COVID cases for like a month that wasn't anything to do with the US's decisions. At the end of the day, it's all just the "president desk levers" mindset to think there is some obvious solution to a lack of supply. That last bit is a pretty good question, although "ghost of a chance" of passage kind of gets rid of most things these days, from a public option (not while AHIP has a say!) or dental coverage for Medicare (not while the ADA has a say!) or standardized medical pricing (not while the AHA has a say!), given our donor-driven politics. I'd love to see federal legislation striking down a law like IL has that prohibits local municipalities from enacting rent control but I'm sure the National Assn. of rear end in a top hat Property Owners has ensured that'll never happen, either. I guess it all comes back to elected officials paying more heed to the industries that fund their campaigns than to the voters who elected them, in which case we'd need some muscular campaign-finance laws, which have as good of a chance of passing as M4A, given the beneficiaries of the lack of such laws.  eta: Papercut posted:That isn't mixed messaging, none of those messages are contradictory. True, but most of those "I see you & I hear you" tweets only came about after a year's worth of mocking poo poo like "Good news! Your July 4th BBQ will be 14 cents cheaper than last year's!" and other affronts to lying eyes. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Apr 5, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 22:07
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Killer robot posted:"Lots of people agree with me, don't be mad because I'm the only one brave enough to say it!": famously never used by people being called out for lovely stances. "Lots of people agree with me, I'm one brave enough to say it" is usually one of the criteria for selecting/electing a union steward during the formation of a workers' union because it absolutely puts a target on one's back to be the voice of the many.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:07
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Killer robot posted:"Lots of people agree with me, don't be mad because I'm the only one brave enough to say it!": famously never used by people being called out for lovely stances. I mean this was said behind closed doors, it’s safe to assume she can mention Chris Coons and others by name when talking privately. Decorum doesn’t allow them to name names in front of cameras. I’ve been saying for months now that the vibes are hosed, and no amount of statistical evidence (measures which themselves have been dickied with for years for political reasons) is going to convince people the vibes aren’t hosed. Life isn’t as fun anymore. People are pissed all the time. I think a major part of this is people realizing the system is performing as expected, which COVID and the government response to it highlighted. You haven’t been screwed out of a decent life on accident, or because you made bad decisions, it’s because money grubbers and shitheads won’t stop picking at you. New fees. New bullshit you gotta deal with. Shits more expensive and it’s not better than the old poo poo. Everybody’s worried all the time. The vast majority of people do not like or are made anxious by their jobs, to the point we’re culturally all using the phrase Sunday Scaries to indicate how hosed work is right now. I think we need some kind of major cultural shift to get out of our malaise. 4 day work week, national debt jubilee, Medicare for all, something that takes a meaningful pressure away for a significant number of Americans. loving fix something, anything. Nancy Pelosi’s unconcerned haughtiness becomes more and more intolerable the closer we get to the culmination of her failure, which will have absolutely no material effect on her whatsoever, but historically will be seen as a political malpractice of astonishing proportions. At least we get to talk about Hunter Biden a whole loving lot next year, just so much of him coming up. Thank god, it’s a small price to pay for the dynamic presidency his dad has delivered.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:17
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Simena also said that there were other senators who had problems which portions of the bill, but that they weren't going to sink the bill over it and didn't want to come out against it if it wasn't going to make any difference. She didn't say that there were others waiting in the wings to vote it down if she didn't.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:20
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Simena also said that there were other senators who had problems which portions of the bill, but that they weren't going to sink the bill over it and didn't want to come out against it if it wasn't going to make any difference. Do you truly believe that it’s just her and Manchin, and if they got out of the way, it would go through? Because I think that’s extremely naive; why would the people who pay Sinema and Manchin to oppose it not be able to find other proxies?
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Apr 5, 2022 22:25
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Killer robot posted:"Lots of people agree with me, don't be mad because I'm the only one brave enough to say it!": famously never used by people being called out for lovely stances. You'd think that Sinema would maybe realize that she should rotate, and allow the other Rotating Villians to rotate into her place in order to continue the "rotation" part of the rotation villainy.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:25
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Maybe the rotating villain theory is true and maybe it's not But events played out exactly as if it were true. The only argument to be had is the intentionality of it
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Apr 5, 2022 22:27
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Killer robot posted:"Lots of people agree with me, don't be mad because I'm the only one brave enough to say it!": famously never used by people being called out for lovely stances. Again it's not like it really matters now that Republicans are introducing state level legislation to overturn elections they don't like
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Apr 5, 2022 22:29
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The rotating villain is an inevitable outcome of the big tent, pro capital nature of the party.
Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Apr 5, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 22:31
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VitalSigns posted:Sure, she could be lying such that the narrative we desperately want to believe is conveniently true, we could certainly choose to believe that If your point is that "other Dems, out of frame, laughing" is also the most compelling evidence you could be expected to present if rotating villain theory was true, then that's fine. It doesn't actually disprove your belief either. But it still means that Sinema's sayso is a null statement, since she's motivated to say it either way.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:35
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How are u posted:You'd think that Sinema would maybe realize that she should rotate, and allow the other Rotating Villians to rotate into her place in order to continue the "rotation" part of the rotation villainy. I mean, Manchin's right there and has taken his turns too, and one or two are the only ones the party needs, given the current margin, to vote down initiatives that are popular with voters but not with donor industries. selec posted:I’ve been saying for months now that the vibes are hosed, and no amount of statistical evidence (measures which themselves have been dickied with for years for political reasons) is going to convince people the vibes aren’t hosed. Life isn’t as fun anymore. People are pissed all the time. Plus, as I've pointed out, the rapidity with which we saw the temporary safety net sewn back up during 2020-21 likely had the effect of showing people what the government can do for them at the drop of a hat: housing security, student-loan forbearance, unemployment comp at living-wage levels (and higher than the minimum wage in most states), food security, free medical care, and no-questions-asked/non-means-tested Medicaid with no clawbacks. It sucks that it took a pandemic to have these nice things, but it sucks more that we're told that permanent nice things will never, ever happen and that all but student-loan forbearance has already gone the way of Dems declaring the ACA to be "the first step toward single-payer."
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Apr 5, 2022 22:36
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How are u posted:You'd think that Sinema would maybe realize that she should rotate, and allow the other Rotating Villians to rotate into her place in order to continue the "rotation" part of the rotation villainy. They rotate once the current villain retires with their sinecure, lifetime speaking circuit gravy train, etc. Not in the middle of their terms, that makes no sense. The whole point of the rotating villain is to conceal the number of legislators who oppose popular bills by scapegoating one opponent. Makes no sense to trade out so often you reveal all the villains. Then they all take the heat instead of just one or two people.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:37
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Manager Hoyden posted:Maybe the rotating villain theory is true and maybe it's not I think this is a great point for moving the discussion along positively; by whatever eldritch mechanism of power and money behind it, a great evil is in the land, preventing the people from enjoying life. Now are you going to hold your nose and vote for the lesser Eldritch Money Demon or not? The classic exasperated Matt Christman cry of “What difference does it make?” If the outcome is a demonic subservience to the eldritch money god, who cares what words get spoken in the ritual, what faces are hidden in the hooded robes of the supplicants? I’m not giving those weirdos my money or votes regardless!
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Apr 5, 2022 22:37
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Willa Rogers posted:That last bit is a pretty good question, although "ghost of a chance" of passage kind of gets rid of most things these days, from a public option (not while AHIP has a say!) or dental coverage for Medicare (not while the ADA has a say!) or standardized medical pricing (not while the AHA has a say!), given our donor-driven politics. Would medical reform and letting munis do rent control make a major difference in the earnings front though? Like, it's definitely good policy, sure they should do it, but if the thing you are critical about is wages vs inflation then how does that solve it? We've already come closer to a general strike than most anyone would've expected through COVID and various knock-on effects, at this point raising the min wage to $13 or whatever probably wouldn't have that much impact in a lot of parts of the country - fast food and Amazon have had to bump their baselines way up to get anyone, and even though unemployment != economic health or public happiness it does restrict options for economic stimulus. It's not like public works projects would help or anything, construction work is already backlogged. I guess you can't go wrong with more stimulus payments, but it might unironically lead to more housing/rental inflation, not for any macro reasons so much as just landlord greediness. And if they ratchet up, they probably won't ratchet down just because the stimulus stopped. Maybe a permanent increase to SNAP or the like would be a better way to target spending to avoid this sort of garbage?
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Apr 5, 2022 22:37
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selec posted:Do you truly believe that it’s just her and Manchin, and if they got out of the way, it would go through? Because I think that’s extremely naive; why would the people who pay Sinema and Manchin to oppose it not be able to find other proxies? The final $1.9 trillion/$2.4 trillion version absolutely would have. Every single major component that was punitive or increased taxes on anyone in any meaningful way was stripped out from the original $3.5 trillion/$4.7 trillion proposal. All that was left was a bunch of free money to parents, low income people, people with expensive houses or who live in high tax states, subsidies for people to get free private healthcare, and a bunch of money to different businesses for housing/green energy/day care/healthcare providers/insurers. The only things left that were still mildly opposed by industry were the Rx pricing reforms (which were very neutered from the original proposal) and the insulin cap.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:38
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How are u posted:You'd think that Sinema would maybe realize that she should rotate, and allow the other Rotating Villians to rotate into her place in order to continue the "rotation" part of the rotation villainy. The rotations don't have to be a week or even a year. The only time a rotation is needed is when the democrats have the ability to enact meaningful legislation due to having Congress and the WH- so once a decade or so is more than enough.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:41
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Killer robot posted:If your point is that "other Dems, out of frame, laughing" is also the most compelling evidence you could be expected to present if rotating villain theory was true, then that's fine. It doesn't actually disprove your belief either. But it still means that Sinema's sayso is a null statement, since she's motivated to say it either way. But maybe they are lying and, like the Democrats, will always be stymied by convenient villains in their own party who will pop up to stop any bills to overturn elections, we can hope for that at least
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Apr 5, 2022 22:43
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:The rotations don't have to be a week or even a year. The only time a rotation is needed is when the democrats have the ability to enact meaningful legislation due to having Congress and the WH- so once a decade or so is more than enough. So like, completely indistinguishable from a conservative country with a legislature designed around minimizing any sort of progress.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:43
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:The rotations don't have to be a week or even a year. The only time a rotation is needed is when the democrats have the ability to enact meaningful legislation due to having Congress and the WH- so once a decade or so is more than enough. Well, if that's the only time a Rotation is called for then maybe Sinema should stop complaining about the other Rotating Villains hiding behind her skirts and stick to the schedule!
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Apr 5, 2022 22:46
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BougieBitch posted:Would medical reform and letting munis do rent control make a major difference in the earnings front though? Like, it's definitely good policy, sure they should do it, but if the thing you are critical about is wages vs inflation then how does that solve it? What we need is a campaign-financing overhaul, plus joining the rest of the world in treating healthcare as a human right rather than as a profit center for "stakeholders," plus restoring the social safety net in various permanent ways as was done temporarily through emergency legislation. What we're getting is further corruption of legislation through donor-driven policies and team-spirit politics that stress form over function to distract from the donor-driven policies. eta: A great example of the latter is Biden continuing Trump's further privatization of Medicare but rebranding it as an "equity initiative." Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Apr 5, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 22:47
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Willa Rogers posted:What we need is a campaign-financing overhaul, plus joining the rest of the world in treating healthcare as a human right rather than as a profit center for "stakeholders," plus restoring the social safety net in various permanent ways as was done temporarily through emergency legislation. Sure, but what people want is more purchasing power, right? To the extent that campaign finance overhaul leads to that, it does so in the longer-term and indirectly. What should Dems do THIS YEAR to not get blown out in the election? Cuz messing around with campaign finance reform is just going to look like out-of-touch rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to most voters, and the people that care are already invested in politics
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Apr 5, 2022 22:56
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...5fb4_story.html Oklahoma is doing the roe test case.
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Apr 5, 2022 23:00
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This is the same bounty bill as made the news a week or two ago.
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Apr 5, 2022 23:01
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Willa Rogers posted:What we need is a campaign-financing overhaul, plus joining the rest of the world in treating healthcare as a human right rather than as a profit center for "stakeholders," plus restoring the social safety net in various permanent ways as was done temporarily through emergency legislation. I am extremely pessimistic of this kind of change occurring without major upheaval. If it comes down to freedom with lower profits or more authoritarianism and poo poo tier living conditions with higher profits, the ruling class will take door 2 every time. If the laws and custom of society do not apply to them already (and they don’t) then why would they be concerned about the laws and customs that would further restrain us but not them? Without accountability it’s a dark future. With accountability too many people on My Team go to jail. People can’t countenance the idea of holding powerful people to account. That’s why we creating so many legalistic explanations for why we don’t, but the end result is the same now as it was in medieval aristocracies; those Of The Blood do not respect the law because there is no need for them to do so. It’s wild how so many people would look at this parallel, of elite immunity, and just say it’s completely a coincidence; those rich people got away with being above the moral code because of their imperfect systems. Our rich people are so rarely held to account because they’re just that good at obeying the law.
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Apr 5, 2022 23:02
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^^^ Yep; hence the emphasis on "just one sinema, or manchin" and "VOTE" as panaceas to the system.BougieBitch posted:Sure, but what people want is more purchasing power, right? To the extent that campaign finance overhaul leads to that, it does so in the longer-term and indirectly. What should Dems do THIS YEAR to not get blown out in the election? Cuz messing around with campaign finance reform is just going to look like out-of-touch rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to most voters, and the people that care are already invested in politics It's not my job to devise messages that mask the rot (nor could I do so with a straight face); people get paid the big bucks for that, even when their messages prove less than efficacious cycle after cycle. We can game out what would appeal to voters & get them to vote Dem till the cows come home but all the things I can think of rely on a system not more beholden to industries than people. Voters have made clear what they want to see happen, and neither party is willing to spurn its corporate donors to make those things happen. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Apr 5, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 23:02
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Willa Rogers posted:Voters have made clear what they want to see happen, and neither party is willing to spurn its corporate donors to make those things happen. Which thing that voters want are we talking about here, because I really don't think we have any clear info to go off of here unless you are trying to say "voters wanted Joe Biden and a 50/50 Congress" Eta: Obviously there is some stuff like health care that are pet issues of us on forums, but that isn't what voters as a whole view as first priority right now, except insofar as "can this loving pandemic end already" is partially the fault of our patchwork and failing systems. The issues with inflation and "the economy in general" can't really be reframed that way though, so would redistributive policies like a wealth tax be the actual answer here? I personally think a billionaire wealth tax is about a reasonable as anything else for a "this is what we need your votes for" issue, at various points in negotiations last year it seemed as likely to be in the final bill as most of the other stuff people liked, so no reason that couldn't be the thing to agitate for Honestly, with the international focus on tax havens and oligarch money, some of the things that seemed really unlikely (like discussion about an international minimum tax or w/e was the kind-of-weird campaign promise) might actually be more reasonable riding the current wave of public revulsion with dirty money. Yeah, it would probably piss off some funders, but the magic thing about the billionaire wealth tax was that it was a very countable number of people, so everyone below that cutoff was like "this would be good for me, actually". Not that multimillionaires being in control of our government is MUCH better, but giving the wealthiest a haircut is the first step to making proper strides there BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Apr 5, 2022 |
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Apr 5, 2022 23:09
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VitalSigns posted:It's a pattern that's persisted so long the phrase was coined over a decade ago, and there's plenty of terms of art that describe it ("hall pass", "messaging bill"), but maybe that's just all a coincidence, we can choose to believe that. We can choose to believe anything about why voting rights bills can't pass, doesn't change the outcome that Republicans have the power to unilaterally award themselves every presidential election and, apparently, the growing will to use it. So it's of similar age to the phrase "cultural marxism," huh? Not disuputing that, but the existence of the phrase only means people believe in the phenomenon, not that it exists. But you do realize that a "hall pass" means that if the party is getting the numbers it needs to achieve a legislative priority, it won't sweat dissent from individual legislators whose constituents disapprove of the national party's stance and might punish them in the long term. That's, um, deeply different from the idea that the national party's stance is a lie and they're secretly sabotating it on purpose. It's even more different if you think that succeeding at the public proposal would be more successful and popular than the secret shadow policy of burning it all down. They really just share a handwave of "you know how, sometimes, the party whips don't put the party voting as a hive mind above literally everything?" Again, none of this says there aren't rotating villains: absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. But the non-evidence you're presenting seems to become more tenuous and circumstantial with every additional piece, and I feel that says something for your positive claim that they do.
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Apr 5, 2022 23:14
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Killer robot posted:So it's of similar age to the phrase "cultural marxism," huh? Not disuputing that, but the existence of the phrase only means people believe in the phenomenon, not that it exists. But you do realize that a "hall pass" means that if the party is getting the numbers it needs to achieve a legislative priority, it won't sweat dissent from individual legislators whose constituents disapprove of the national party's stance and might punish them in the long term. Those are terms of art that originated from within the legislative culture, not without. “Cultural Marxism” is a nonsense slur made up by people who hate both of the words in the phrase: hall passes, messaging bills, horse trading and so on are jargon from within the sausage factory. The secret shadowy policy isn’t secret or shadowy, it’s right in front of you, rich people getting richer, every single aspect of your life being financialized, services cut or eliminated. None of this requires any conspiritorial mindset to understand, just the willingness to read graphs and the news, and the sense that powerful people do try and shape things larger than their own lives, using the resources they have to do so, which at this point are so vast scientists are telling us our brains cannot make accurate estimations or models of them.
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Apr 5, 2022 23:23
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VitalSigns posted:They rotate once the current villain retires with their sinecure, lifetime speaking circuit gravy train, etc. That sounds less like this coordinated scheme by Democrats, and more a mathematical characteristic of any elected group of sufficient ideological diversity. There will always be someone the most to the right. This is like someone calling Susan Collins and Mitt Romney proof of a conspiracy against Trump.
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Apr 5, 2022 23:26
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BougieBitch posted:Which thing that voters want are we talking about here, because I really don't think we have any clear info to go off of here unless you are trying to say "voters wanted Joe Biden and a 50/50 Congress" Not unless it leads to "some stuff like healthcare" but it'll be fun to watch the Dems try, once again, to flail around with stuff like turning "we need cost controls on pharma like every other country" (what voters want) to "would you believe... insulin capped at $35/month?" (what Dems might pass someday). If you're serious about tax reform, you don't nip it at the margins, like "no new taxes on anyone making <$400k" while not addressing regressive taxation like FICA or even promising no new taxes at all. I'm so old I remember when only conservatives said "Read my lips: No new taxes!" eta: Any richie knows how to hide money from taxation or how to hire the professionals that do.
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Apr 5, 2022 23:28
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