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Jaxyon posted:That's actually exactly what's happening It’s like an Onion headline. “If Trans Women Aren’t Dominating Women’s Sport, Why Do I Keep Insisting They Are?”
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Apr 7, 2022 19:17
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Internaut! posted:Don't forget muscle mass to go along with that huge skeleton. people already called this post out for other reasons but i'll also add on the weightlifting side that wilks coefficients (a bodyweight:weight lifted ratio to loosely standardize performance across weight classes) aren't significantly different between genders, both with and without supplementary hormones. For a while the strongest pound for pound person on the planet was a 100lb australian woman Weightlifting/strength sports in particular are an interesting point in all of this because people are already modifying their hormone levels for it and the tldr is that it makes a difference, but it's still 95% about your training, your programming, your nutrition, your recovery, your meet prep strategy/peaking routines, and then probably hormones. Hormones don't make a huge difference until you're already at a very highlevel and already have most of the other important factors in place. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 19:45
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Internaut! posted:Don't forget muscle mass to go along with that huge skeleton. This post is a lie. Just a straight up bald faced lie. I'm not even going to entertain the possibility that it could be true by asking for evidence to prove your lies. You might as well be saying that the sky is green or vaccines cause autism.
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Apr 7, 2022 19:49
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Herstory Begins Now posted:people already called this post out for other reasons but i'll also add on the weightlifting side that wilks coefficients aren't significantly different between genders both with and without supplementary hormones Lol yeah, if we want to get into how goofy all the existing regulations are Olympic weight lifting is a great one. Are you short, light, but can lift really heavy weights? Good news, you have a natural advantage in lifting compared to someone bigger, heavier, and stronger because you can lift more in relation to your size. Which is honestly one of the best ways to measure things but also causes weird situations like the hypotheticals people are worried about with trans athletes and no one has really cared.
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Apr 7, 2022 19:50
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also as an aside, I've known hella 140lb women who took no hormones who were much stronger than pretty much every guy who doesn't lift or do manual labor. There's a weird subtext to the whole debate generally where people assume that female athletes are complete waifish pushovers and that some schlumpy guy in his skinny fat magnificence is going to outperform female athletes. spoiler: it's not happening
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Apr 7, 2022 19:52
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As a reminder, even when engaging with fraught topics or arguments that seem self-evidently wrong, rules of rigor and good argumentation still apply.
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Apr 7, 2022 19:55
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Regardless if someone is on on hormone therapy, the fact that they went through a male puberty makes a massive difference in their current physiology. It's why puberty blockers are more effective at repressing male secondary sexual characteristics than hormone therapy. Is there someone in this thread that actually know about this? I'm about 70%.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:04
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Borscht posted:Regardless if someone is on on hormone therapy, the fact that they went through a male puberty makes a massive difference in their current physiology. It's why puberty blockers are more effective at repressing male secondary sexual characteristics than hormone therapy. Is there someone in this thread that actually know about this? I'm about 70%. Ok but there's no evidence that this massive difference is affecting their performance in women's sports, so why is it relevant?
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Apr 7, 2022 20:06
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I'm having trouble parsing that. I assume you don't mean that there is no evidence of individuals whom have undergone male puberty being able to jump higher and run faster?
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Apr 7, 2022 20:15
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Borscht posted:Regardless if someone is on on hormone therapy, the fact that they went through a male puberty makes a massive difference in their current physiology. It's why puberty blockers are more effective at repressing male secondary sexual characteristics than hormone therapy. Is there someone in this thread that actually know about this? I'm about 70%. And MMA has been able to allow MTF athletes to compete 2 years after surgery and 2 years of hormone therapy without anyone dominating the sport by transitioning. Considering MMA is a combat sport I think even less intensive restrictions would be needed in other sports but it's a good example of the conditions for the situation you're afraid of and not having it happen.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:16
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Borscht posted:I'm having trouble parsing that. Do you have proof of trans women dominating sport?
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Apr 7, 2022 20:16
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If we're concerned about muscle density and skeletal changes and whatever else male puberty is accused of causing which allows trans women to perform better than cis women in certain disciplines, should there be tests of those specific genetic variations in cis women in order to maintain fairness? If a cis woman is too tall, or their feet are too big or their hands are too big, or whatever else, do we judge that they are physiologically "insufficiently feminine" to compete fairly against women? If you start from the idea that trans women are women (which they are), then you accept their biology as one of many possible variations that occur in women, not an "unfair advantage." To judge that their specific biology is an anti-competitive problem, you must first start with the idea that trans women are not real or legitimate women, which is why this entire discussion ultimately boils down to transphobia.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:23
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Gentleman Baller posted:Sure, I grant you all this but just to fully clarify, if someone says, "wage theft is unfair." that is invalid to you? Or would you agree that, despite capitalism being definitionally unfair, and how many of the rules are arbitrary, things can still be particularly unfair under capitalism? Capitalism is unfair on its face. Full stop. Pointing out that wage theft exists is like pointing out that there are athletes that have the privilege of a specialized gym, top of the class coaches, nutritionists, etc. Its baked in. Additionally, I think the issue here for the comparison is no one is forcing several countries worth of people into sports just to eat. On top of that the wage theft comparison could come across as transgendered athletes stealing from someone so it’s not a good look overall. quote:Does that extend to people who think trans women who haven't undergone HRT shouldn't be competing against cis women? Or are there other reasons someone might care about fairness in that case? If a person willingly participated in sports then I don’t give a single gently caress what their thoughts are about transgendered athletes undergoing HRT. They chose to participate. The argument is silly on its face to me and just another stupid wedge to bash transgendered athletes and, frankly, the human body. Again, the Olympics goes so far as to regulate testosterone levels is cis women. It’s loving stupid.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:26
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Nah. Couldn't give a poo poo about sports. I like science though. How many trans women compete?
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Apr 7, 2022 20:27
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Borscht posted:Nah. Couldn't give a poo poo about sports. If there is no evidence that these so-called advantages are producing advantageous competitive results then what relevance does your "common sense" point about differences between males and females have to this thread on the topic of transpeople's participation in sports? If you like science you should try harder at it.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:30
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Borscht posted:Nah. Couldn't give a poo poo about sports. You're going to need to provide some evidence because that's also as tough to believe as everything else you've said with what you've provided.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:31
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Borscht posted:I'm having trouble parsing that. If you are aware of evidence that supports this, please post it, rather than just alluding to it and then expecting people to make arguments against a position which you have not actually stated, using data you have not shown anyone. I would love to engage with what you're saying, but you have to actually say it first, is all.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:33
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If you're good at science you would also understand that even though some individuals may share a characteristic of having undergone male puberty they may still experience divergent results if they go on to do other things with their hormones. I'm making this point before some trivial evidence that men's records are bigger numbers than women's is presented, because it would be meaningless to the topic.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:36
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Borscht posted:Nah. Couldn't give a poo poo about sports. Please don't answer questions with questions, and be careful to only make assertions you are willing to support or concede.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:38
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The question of 'why aren't trans athletes dominating in sports?' is probably the more revealing question and imo the more interesting one.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:39
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Gumball Gumption posted:You're going to need to provide some evidence because that's also as tough to believe as everything else you've said with what you've provided. I guess I thought that was obvious. High school boys regularly beat the record for the woman's 100m sprint for example. For individuals that had undergone HRT in the air force after a male puberty, there was a dogshit study with like N=60 earlier in the thread that I think is the best around for now. The authors were pretty up front with the serious limitations of the study, though. Is there anything better you can point me to? e: for mod advice
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Apr 7, 2022 20:46
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Borscht posted:I guess I thought that was obvious. High school boys regularly beat the record for the woman's 100m sprint for example. Ok, so why aren't trans women dominating in sprint then?
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Apr 7, 2022 20:50
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Harold Fjord posted:Ok, so why aren't trans women dominating in sprint then? Because there are far fewer trans women athletes than cis women athletes.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:53
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Borscht posted:Because there are far fewer trans women athletes than cis women athletes. This doesn't follow at all. Why doesn't one of those high school boys transition and come in first place in every every sprint competition if this all works the way you're claiming it does? Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 20:54
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Koos Group posted:As a reminder, even when engaging with fraught topics or arguments that seem self-evidently wrong, rules of rigor and good argumentation still apply. Can I make a suggestion? I understand that proper debate conduct is important here, but can we set the standard that people should be forthright with their evidence for extraordinary claims such as this? Rather than play this game where everyone responds to them asking for evidence, thus lending legitimacy to the outrageous claim. Especially when it's a claim that propagates harmful myths about vulnerable groups of people.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:57
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Harold Fjord posted:This doesn't follow at all. I don't have any reason to believe that trans women would dominate sports by their very nature, but just to play devils advocate to your question here: I suspect that cis high school boys would not be interested in transitioning gender away from what they are and want to be just to win sprint competitions.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:06
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Borscht posted:Because there are far fewer trans women athletes than cis women athletes. So they have an intrinsic, systemic, serious advantage, but it hasn't been shown in real world examples yet because it's so rare that it hasn't actually happened yet, ever? I do not think that makes sense. If they have such an advantage it would have appeared and be measurable at this point. No such advantage exists.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:10
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How are u posted:I don't have any reason to believe that trans women would dominate sports by their very nature, but just to play devils advocate to your question here: I suspect that cis high school boys would not be interested in transitioning gender away from what they are and want to be just to win sprint competitions. And the entire fear is that this is a loophole that will allow middling men's athletes to transition and become dominant women's athletes. Which hasn't happened and like you said, there are lots of reasons that probably won't happen beyond even the biological aspects of it.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:10
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Harold Fjord posted:This doesn't follow at all. Massive social pressure, the relatively rarity of transgenderism and transphobia.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:14
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Here are my thoughts: -- I think when you do find some of the outliers who are performing better in their new cohort than their old cohort, it is worth considering the impact of not wanting to loving kill yourself all the time. Transitioning has just made be better at literally everything I do. I'm better at my job. I'm a better partner. I'm a better friend. I'm more confident when I work out or do physical stuff. I can't even imagine how being a parent would have been if I am out. And I think it worth considering the psychological impact on someone who is no longer pretending to be someone else. -- I have mixed feelings about the focus on sports. On one hand, I think that we cede too much ground to Conservatives on matters of biology when it comes to trans folks. The point we hit a decade ago of moving the conversation about what's in people's underpants is an important one, but we should be able to talk about our bodies and what it means to transition. But also the vast, vast majority of trans women aren’t professional athletes. My fat rear end is more worried about just getting past the anxiety of an alarm going off and someone murdering me when I buy pants. And I feel like these conversations are hard for me. Like I understand that it's all bad faith argument to find some sort of CHECKMATE against trans people. But I also feel it's like, "Okay, well I guess I need to be really informed about sports and MMA to engage in conversations about not being murdered?" And it's very frustrating. I appreciate the intent of the thread, but when the media is memoryholing murders of our activists, It would be nice for a broader topic. --Nobody is born male. You can be like me and be born with a penis and other features that are traditionally male. Gender is developed over time and is a mix of various physical attributes that are interpreting in ways. But babies are not born being like, "I'm a boy or girl." They're busy with the existential terror of being. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 21:17
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I still don't buy it there would be at least one showboat of the millions of high school idiots out there.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:17
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Borscht posted:Regardless if someone is on on hormone therapy, the fact that they went through a male puberty makes a massive difference in their current physiology. It's why puberty blockers are more effective at repressing male secondary sexual characteristics than hormone therapy. Is there someone in this thread that actually know about this? I'm about 70%. You've made about 5 posts in this thread advancing argument feel free to post done science. Please note, just realizing that sexual dimorphism exists doesnt make this argument. In general as you can see from other posters, this part where I ask you to support your position with data is usually when you stop replying. Hopefully that's not you! Borscht posted:Nah. Couldn't give a poo poo about sports. It does not appear you like it enough as it disagrees with you on this subject. Voice taken the anti science position Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 21:51
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Hot take. Trans athletes should not be allowed to take part in gender specific sports. Lia Thomas, for example, is only just transitioning. She is built like a male swimmer. She needs time to go through her transition and then once that's done she should be allowed to compete as much as she wants. But, does anyone possibly see the disparity? Transitioning women cant compete in men's sports, whereas transitioning men compete in women's sport and they overtake and it becomes more important than women's leagues. Takes away from what women are achieving.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:10
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What did Lia Thomas take away from cis women? Please be very specific.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:17
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Aginor posted:Hot take. Trans athletes should not be allowed to take part in gender specific sports. Lia Thomas, for example, is only just transitioning. She is built like a male swimmer. She needs time to go through her transition and then once that's done she should be allowed to compete as much as she wants. But, does anyone possibly see the disparity? Transitioning women cant compete in men's sports, whereas transitioning men compete in women's sport and they overtake and it becomes more important than women's leagues. Takes away from what women are achieving. Can you show any examples of them "overtaking" women's sports? Can you show an example of it taking away from what women are achieving? It is not ok to say things like this without providing evidence for it. These are deeply bigoted and offensive things you have just said and I don't think it's right for you to come in here and plop them here without a single shred of backup for your beliefs. Giving these views a platform and space to be spoken plainly is harmful and offensive to trans people. This needs to stop immediately.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:20
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I agree I understand why mods want to move away from position specific moderation but spreading hateful bigotry that is unsupported and pretending it's science is definitely beyond the pale
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Apr 7, 2022 22:21
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Harold Fjord posted:What did Lia Thomas take away from cis women? Please be very specific. Hate the "cis" tag on peoples gender. Seems very negative. She's been swimming and competing with all the testosterone of a man since the age of 4. She has only just begun transitioning and for that I applaud her. But how is it fair to "cis" females for someone who hasn't even started properly transitioning to be allowed to compete in the same competitions? Should competition not be fair and should it not be for the people with the right hormone levels? Or have we such an agenda these days that it would be crazy to even question things?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:23
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Aginor posted:Hate the "cis" tag on peoples gender. Seems very negative. We are questioning you, and we're asking you to provide evidence of your belief that she has an advantage. Why are you ignoring us when we ask you for evidence of your claims? We'd like to engage with them further. Can you show us why you believe these things? In what race has she had an unfair advantage? What was that advantage? Please be specific.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:26
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Aginor posted:Hot take. Trans athletes should not be allowed to take part in gender specific sports. Lia Thomas, for example, is only just transitioning. She is built like a male swimmer. She needs time to go through her transition and then once that's done she should be allowed to compete as much as she wants. But, does anyone possibly see the disparity? Transitioning women cant compete in men's sports, whereas transitioning men compete in women's sport and they overtake and it becomes more important than women's leagues. Takes away from what women are achieving. But let me ask you this question. All the highest ranked performers in Jeopardy tend to be men with the exception of Amy Schneider who is a trans woman. What do you feel is more likely to be true in how we interpret this fact: —Men are biologically smarter than women and Amy won because of biological traits she was born with —Woman and men are equally capable of intelligence, and like Ken Jennings, Amy being raised as a boy did mean her intelligence and competitiveness was more valued than if she had been raised as a woman? As the article cites, trans boys are often underestimated and entering a field with boys who can be less supportive than female athletes. Ignoring the fact that there are trans boys who can clearly hang in boy’s sports, you can’t just treat it like some equal playing field.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:27
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empty whippet box posted:Can you show any examples of them "overtaking" women's sports? Can you show an example of it taking away from what women are achieving? Get a loving grip! You're basically saying its not okay to have a different opinion. As soon as you say you don't agree with anything regarding trans it deeply bigoted. Its not harmful to trans people in the slightest. If you look at my pro-nouns I'm very positive. I just don't think either direction should be competing until the research is greater. Is that bigotted? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 7, 2022 22:27
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