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dodgeblan posted:yes because Margit is specifically designed to teach you that this is not the case. If you don't figure out during fighting Margit that you can't drink when he's not doing anything then I don't know what to tell you. You can all the time when he's not doing stuff though. I certainly did.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:47
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ScootsMcSkirt posted:use steam to verify the game files. Steam also might have cloud saves that are from an earlier point Be careful about cloud saves after crashes because sometimes it's from a much earlier point. When the game first came out people were losing days worth of progress because of cloud save issues.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:48
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They aren't doing nothing, they're waiting for you to drink. Same thing you should be doing with NPC invaders!
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Apr 7, 2022 21:48
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Maybe if the Crucible Knights attacks didn't move it 5 miles across the fighting arena to hit me, I would feel good about drinking estus while he's attacking instead of wondering "is this fucker somehow still going to hit me"
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Apr 7, 2022 21:51
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RBA Starblade posted:You can all the time when he's not doing stuff though. I certainly did. Yeah I mean I did too, but the dagger is clearly meant to make it a risk. It doesn't work at all ranges but if he's been chilling in front of you for a while and you heal you gonna get daggered. It took me a long time to understand anything about that fight but that was like the first thing I understood!!
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Apr 7, 2022 21:52
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dodgeblan posted:I don't get why people get so mad about this. Yeah, you can't estus against most bosses when they aren't doing anything. So what? stop doing it and only estus when you have a safe window. The issue isn't just Estus punish... It's like... Margit, again, someone I spent FAR too long tinkering with. If he's "not doing anything", he's either waiting for you to get closer to start an attack or holding an input read punish and it's hard to tell when is which. One is safe to drink/cast, the other is a ticket to paintown. If he holding an input read punish, you can cast Glintstone at max range and should be able to roll away from his instant dagger toss counter. If you're just a little too close, you can't get out of the way in time and you're locked into the cast animation. So... dodgeblan posted:yes because Margit is specifically designed to teach you that this is not the case. If you don't figure out during fighting Margit that you can't drink when he's not doing anything then I don't know what to tell you. This just creates a recipe for frustration. The openings aren't clear when I'm allowed to do anything (chug, cast a spell, etc) and when the AI has a bullet in the chamber ready punish being proactive. Thus, for phase 2 I just threw out trying to melee him and ran him around for a couple minutes chipping him to death.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:53
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Maybe it's time they implement drinking feints so I can punish those who think they have a window.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:55
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margit does a very quick light dagger that doesn't hurt much but it's a gentle slap saying "stop that", it feels reasonable. the lumbering crucible knight that activates his hidden hyperdrive to run and lunge 40ft at the very first frame of a sip feels like bullshit even though it's basically the same thing
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Apr 7, 2022 21:57
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Perfect Potato posted:Honestly the ai in the game is completely hosed in general and is part of the reason the input reading complaint is so prevalent this time. Like in this webm the issue is not really the fireball on estus press, the issue is why the gently caress are these things so drat passive when you're not actually inputting anything. So many enemies just devolve into this bizarre behaviour when they're waiting for you to do literally anything solely to punish you for trying. And it's not even consistent half the time since on some runs they'll dial the aggression up to 11 for no reason. Malenia does this a lot in phase 1 as well but at least there it's more for the duel trappings and to let the player buff and heal Try plugging your controller into slot 2, Snake!
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Apr 7, 2022 21:57
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I'm fairly sure that all the bosses with arbitrarily long attack sequences can be parried out of them. Some of them require two or three parries before you can riposte though.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:57
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My character is a big weapon user (50STR/18DEX/20INT) and upgraded the Meteoric Ore Blade to +7 since it had surprisingly higher STR scaling than on DEX. The R2 deals quite a lot of stagger damage. Moveset looks cool. Anything against this weapon? Is it bad?
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Apr 7, 2022 21:58
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katanas are good weapons so you're super fine. consider however the simple joy of powerstancing two giant anythings EDIT: it was nice of them to put in a STR katana though
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Apr 7, 2022 22:00
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I'd be find if enemies can input read you while healing, with the solution being "Heal whilst they're in recovery from their big combo". What I am NOT ok with is enemies input reading you to attack. Seriously, I will never get over that fat bastard godskin guy WOG'ing me mid swing . Or the godforsaken red dogs switching from spellcasting to "Imma chill out at 50 meters but instantly close the gap within 0.1 seconds to quick bite you if you try to cast a spell". That poo poo really did taint my opinion of these games going forward. If we go by the unspoken rule that "each soulsborne has to be harder than the last" what's next? Bosses being able to juggle you in the air? Bosses being able to RANDOMLY parry you for a one hit kill? Bosses being able to cast spells with no wind-ups? How about bosses being able to spam teleports like DBZ characters?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:00
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Perfect Potato posted:Honestly the ai in the game is completely hosed in general and is part of the reason the input reading complaint is so prevalent this time. Like in this webm the issue is not really the fireball on estus press, the issue is why the gently caress are these things so drat passive when you're not actually inputting anything. So many enemies just devolve into this bizarre behaviour when they're waiting for you to do literally anything solely to punish you for trying. Well to be fair, this is actually kinda realistic behavior. Meaning, this is basically exactly what I do when I fight any boss, or fight phantoms, or play a fighting game: wait for a specific action and then rush in to punish.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:02
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Uhg those crawly bag-head dudes in the Volcano Manor torture house are so creepy. It's that snarling noise they make as they're thumping around trying to get to you that really puts them squarely into horror-movie territory, you can hear them from so far away too so you have to deal with it getting louder, then quieter for a second, and then it gets louder again and you realize they were just going down a couple flights of stairs and they're only a room or two away now and you better hope you see it first because it's gonna jump on your face and bite you if you don't. Blech. I don't think there is another enemy that actually shakes me up as much as they are capable of. Einwand posted:I've yet to get any sort of online ban for having a couple base files I put together with tens of millions of runes and 999 of every smithing stone and tons of extra golden seeds/sacred tears, and all 4 talisman slots and so on. Far as I can tell so long as it's theoretically possible to have it in your inventory, the game won't care when you take an offline EAC disabled cheated file to online. Makes it easy to put together any sort of gimmick run/pvp build I feel like trying out at any given level range/area. The only times I've personally known people who got banned, got banned in waves, sometimes quite a lot later on. One of my friends got a huge amount of hacked money, like many billions, in GTA:O way back on PS3 and eventually he transferred over to PS4, and like a year or more after that I guess they caught on. And then another person had their Blizzard account banned for a bit after it got hacked and used by a person/people in China, it was an inactive account but I think they eventually got the ban overturned when they explained they had never been anywhere in Asia, ever. But yea I doubt you'd ever get noticed just for adding basic items, you would probably have to be streaming a lot, or raising hell in PvP and ruining the game for others to ever draw enough attention.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:03
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Guillermus posted:My character is a big weapon user (50STR/18DEX/20INT) and upgraded the Meteoric Ore Blade to +7 since it had surprisingly higher STR scaling than on DEX. The R2 deals quite a lot of stagger damage. Moveset looks cool. Anything against this weapon? Is it bad? I love the R2 on it but I paired it with another katana with blood so I could have the best of both worlds there. Also the ore blade makes me feel like the erdtree cat bosses with their funny smash move.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:03
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Sample_text posted:How about bosses being able to spam teleports like DBZ characters? hey if it works for kirby bosses
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Apr 7, 2022 22:03
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If you're getting baited by bosses, the correct solution is bait the bosses instead. The only way to win is to master baiting.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:05
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Promethium posted:I'm fairly sure that all the bosses with arbitrarily long attack sequences can be parried out of them. Some of them require two or three parries before you can riposte though. Godfrey right after Margit drilled into my head "don't expect to be to parry bosses, we're back to DS1/2." I spent hours trying to parry Godfrey, looked it up online, and it doesn't seem like he can be. Rennala didn't help break that belief, with her all magic line up. Almost all the minibosses and normal enemies can parried, at least. Hopefully more of the later Big Name Bosses are parriable, I'd much prefer to go toe-to-toe.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:06
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Xaiter posted:The issue isn't just Estus punish... It's like... I felt like at medium range both the godskin noble (blackflame fireball) and margit (hammer slam, 2 hit stick spinny whack) have attacks that are guaranteed punishable. Before I understood how to fight them close up my strategy was baiting these attacks and punishing them. So I'm not really sure what you mean when you say it's not clear when they are safe to attack at range
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Apr 7, 2022 22:06
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Sample_text posted:I'd be find if enemies can input read you while healing, with the solution being "Heal whilst they're in recovery from their big combo". The Carian Knight outside Renalla will parry and riposte you into the ground
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Apr 7, 2022 22:07
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Guillermus posted:My character is a big weapon user (50STR/18DEX/20INT) and upgraded the Meteoric Ore Blade to +7 since it had surprisingly higher STR scaling than on DEX. The R2 deals quite a lot of stagger damage. Moveset looks cool. Anything against this weapon? Is it bad? You'll get better damage with a Heavy Uchigatana, plus the ability to use Unsheathe which does crazy posture damage equal to pre-nerf Moonveil (but without the range). Or you could put Gravitas on it to get something that feels the same as the Meteor katana but strengthier. Downside is that it takes normal smithstones which are harder to come by than somber stones.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:10
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Sample_text posted:I'd be find if enemies can input read you while healing, with the solution being "Heal whilst they're in recovery from their big combo". I don't think that's what's happening. It seems to me that the big changeup in the combat system is that most hard enemies now have some attack strings that have basically no cooldown on their final attack. This means it feels like they are specifically punishing you for attacking after. I don't think it's input reading because sometimes enemies will just seem to attack endlessly even if you are just rolling. Radagon phase 2 is a big example of this because he can just go straight from his attack string to a teleport and other wacky poo poo. The solution that I think From is trying to nudge us towards is attacking during the slow combo string rather than at the end.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:11
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GruntyThrst posted:The Carian Knight outside Renalla will parry and riposte you into the ground Ok, how would it be if let's say..... the Godskin guys could do it? Randomly? So the fat guy rolls around on the ground for 10 seconds, you run in circles with him....then after all of that, you go in for the punish and he perfect-parries you, skipping his recovery after the roll-attack. It would make the game more difficult, but would that be fun? Sample_text fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 22:13
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ER enemies aren't even trying to pretend they aren't instantly reacting to inputs and most of them are equipped with one (or more) moves that will be fast enough to take advantage of it. they also aren't committed even when doing their big poo poo bc they're allowed to cancel out of the recovery animation of nearly their full repertoire of attacks. to the point it's actually comical when they have that one move with a big recovery
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Apr 7, 2022 22:14
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Me, waiting patiently and then punishing bosses when they perform a punishable action: Haha gently caress yeah!!! Yes!! Me, being attacked by a boss who waited patiently for me to perform a punishable action: Well this loving sucks. What the gently caress.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:14
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Sample_text posted:Ok, now thing how would it be if let's say..... the Godskin guys could do it? I don’t disagree I’m just saying that one’s in the game already
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Apr 7, 2022 22:15
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dodgeblan posted:I felt like at medium range both the godskin noble (blackflame fireball) and margit (hammer slam, 2 hit stick spinny whack) have attacks that are guaranteed punishable. Before I understood how to fight them close up my strategy was baiting these attacks and punishing them. So I'm not really sure what you mean when you say it's not clear when they are safe to attack at range Margit wasn't really safe to attack at range consistently. The gap between "too close to avoid the dagger toss" and "too far for the spell to reach" is pretty small. I kept running and flinging stones trying to stay on the edge of his reach/reaction, it was a consistent way getting in a hit in that didn't depend on him doing one of two attacks with clear punishment openings. I tried meleeing those openings, but always responds with a punishment for the classic Dark Souls cheese of "rub your face in their junk/butt", so it turns into "get one or two quick hits in and then start sprinting away, ready to dodge the massive sweeping attack that will open his anti-cheese combo that has too many attacks in quick succession to roll/guard through". They made it EXTREMELY dangerous to be too close to a boss or behind a boss. There's very much pressure to stand in front of the boss and have a duel or just play hit and run with ranged.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:15
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Polo-Rican posted:Me, waiting patiently and then punishing bosses when they perform a punishable action: Haha gently caress yeah!!! Yes!! I mean, yeah. One of us is a person trying to have fun and one of us is lines of code. It’s okay that it doesn’t work 2 ways.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:17
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Polo-Rican posted:Me, waiting patiently and then punishing bosses when they perform a punishable action: Haha gently caress yeah!!! Yes!! it's when they are not waiting patiently but are in fact mid combowombo then lol lightspeed trident attack bc you pressed r1
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Apr 7, 2022 22:19
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Xaiter posted:The issue isn't just Estus punish... It's like... If the bosses are being passive and you don't want to gamble, go on the offensive and force them to attack. Heal when they're in recovery. Or back way off if you really need to esty so the range will always let you react. But really you should ideally be healing when a boss is in a recovery animation, not when they're in neutral. It's important to learn which moves you are guaranteed able to punish. Then you drink esties in their face instead of hitting them if you need to. The Anime Liker posted:Since Malenia and the final 3 are bleed immune: I think the final three are, but Malenia is definitely not bleed immune. edit: GloomMouse posted:it's when they are not waiting patiently but are in fact mid combowombo then lol lightspeed trident attack bc you pressed r1 Then don't attack them when they can still cancel into a different move. Wait a bit. Invest in a spear or halberd and discover the joys of prodding idiots at range for daring to finish a combo. TGLT fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 22:19
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Xaiter posted:The issue isn't just Estus punish... It's like... second, he's never "holding an input read punish", the AI is not as complicated as you think it is the bosses react to you drinking but that's about it
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Apr 7, 2022 22:24
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If they want the difficult bosses to be giant hyperactive anime protagonists, I have one simple solution to "fix" the combat. Introduce two new stats that buff your attack speed, and cast speed respectively. Don't tie them to dumbshit things like dexterity. Have them be single-focus stats for that express purpouse. Now you have to sacrifice points from your hp, your weapon-damage stat, or your spell damage stat do attack faster. If you're good at reading the bosses' attacks you don't need it and can play at "base". Otherwise, it's another knob to turn that allows player to self-select their difficulty. But what about PVP? What ABOUT pvp lol ? The pvp in this game is broken anyway who cares lol.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:27
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I genuinely don't understand what people mean when they talk about input reading punishes or whatever.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:28
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Polo-Rican posted:Well to be fair, this is actually kinda realistic behavior. Meaning, this is basically exactly what I do when I fight any boss, or fight phantoms, or play a fighting game: wait for a specific action and then rush in to punish. I think the thing is that a lot of people don't actually want a "smart" AI in a game. What they want is an AI that will present a challenge but is ultimately beatable. Like making an AI the player can't beat is actually pretty easy for a developer to do - look at all the max difficulty bullshit boss AIs that old arcade fighters had, where they simply would always respond with the exact perfect counter to whatever you were doing, while also slowly but steadily pressing towards you and chipping you to death with weak, fast attacks that can't realistically be countered by human reflexes. The rhythm in most of the Souls games is that the Boss is the one that does the moves, and it's the player that does the responses. Throwing in bosses that can respond intelligently to players does increase the challenge and generally makes them "smarter", but it kind of muddies the question of "who is supposed to lead this dance". In a lot of action games, enemies having random counter-attacks isn't actually a huge issue because they don't have the kind of commitment that the Souls games do - they usually let you just dodge cancel out of anything so you go in aggressively, dodge counter-attacks when they happen, and just keep the combo going without breaking stride. It's clear that in those games, the player is the one leading, where dodging is a pure reaction skill rather than the thing you use to gain access to the openings to attack the enemy. Fighting games/PvP are a different thing because neither player is really the "leader", both of them will gain and lose momentum and the better players are better because they are able to capitalize on momentum and keep the pressure up against their opponent, but it's balanced out by the fact that players are human and will make mistakes. You can simulate AI making mistakes, too, but it creates a feeling that when you win, it's because the AI "let" you win, which generally isn't as satisfying. I think the thing is that From style bosses tend to be satisfying because they tend to present a high initial barrier by being extremely lethal when you don't know what they'll do yet, so you have a lot of attempts where you just get pasted by them, but the challenge never seems insurmountable because all of those attempts you are learning their patterns and figuring out how to exploit them. When an AI has erratic attack patterns like mixups or optional combo extensions, it leads to a lot of frustration where people go into a fight they think they have learned, only for a boss to do a thing they never did before on a combo the player has already seen a bunch of times.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:28
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Polo-Rican posted:Me, waiting patiently and then punishing bosses when they perform a punishable action: Haha gently caress yeah!!! Yes!!
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Apr 7, 2022 22:29
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TGLT posted:Then don't attack them when they can still cancel into a different move. Wait a bit. Invest in a spear or halberd and discover the joys of prodding idiots at range for daring to finish a combo. i invested in two big cleavers and killed everything just fine, thank you.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:29
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People be really confused by bosses having different attack patterns that react to the player.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:30
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IronicDongz posted:second, he's never "holding an input read punish", the AI is not as complicated as you think it is Sometimes he lets you cast three stones into his big dumb horny face while he lumbers over to you to start a melee combo, sometimes he flashes a dagger. It isn't consistent or obvious when he's going to choose to do either, or maybe there was a cue in the fight I missed that makes this obvious...?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:31
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SyntheticPolygon posted:I genuinely don't understand what people mean when they talk about input reading punishes or whatever. the illusion that the lines of code are seeing an attack windup, thinking about it, and then reacting, is often more enjoyable even if it is fast. when it's *too fast*/instant it can feel a little silly
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Apr 7, 2022 22:32
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