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It occurred to me that, regarding sports in particular, we expend an enormous amount of effort to try to make the competition as fair as possible. All the rules and regulations and time and effort put into the quest to ensure that the only variable in the game is the natural talent brought by the athletes themselves. So I guess it's kind of a fundamental question about whether trans-women are competing in their category with only their 'natural' talent. So far, it sure doesn't seem at all like there's any issue at all. I do understand how this becomes a point of contention for people, though. Interesting framing.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:28
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Aginor posted:Get a loving grip! You're basically saying its not okay to have a different opinion. As soon as you say you don't agree with anything regarding trans it deeply bigoted. Its not harmful to trans people in the slightest. If you look at my pro-nouns I'm very positive. I just don't think either direction should be competing until the research is greater. Is that bigotted? No, it is harmful. You're coming in here and spouting a bigoted opinion about trans people without any evidence of backup to that opinion in the slightest. You're coming in here and saying the opposite of what trans people and the doctors who care for them say, and the things you're saying are part of arguments used to exclude them from society. Using the right pronouns doesn't make it ok for you to argue against trans people from being included. You've made claims, back them up. That's a very simple ask, isn't it?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:29
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Harold Fjord posted:I agree I understand why mods want to move away from position specific moderation but spreading hateful bigotry that is unsupported and pretending it's science is definitely beyond the pale Hold up! Where's the hateful bigotry? And bear in mind I need time to answer you all individually!
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Apr 7, 2022 22:29
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Can I ask how many of you are trans or transitioning? Just so I can get a read of the room? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 7, 2022 22:30
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Aginor posted:Hold up! Where's the hateful bigotry? That's an interesting response considering that you didn't answer my question at all, you deflected
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Apr 7, 2022 22:31
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Aginor posted:Can I ask how many of you are trans or transitioning? Just so I can get a read of the room? That's none of your business.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:31
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empty whippet box posted:No, it is harmful. You're coming in here and spouting a bigoted opinion about trans people without any evidence of backup to that opinion in the slightest. You're coming in here and saying the opposite of what trans people and the doctors who care for them say, and the things you're saying are part of arguments used to exclude them from society. Using the right pronouns doesn't make it ok for you to argue against trans people from being included. You've made claims, back them up. That's a very simple ask, isn't it? I don't think it is to be fair. I'm not discounting the importance of the topic. Dialogue is needd and not straight out accusatory remarks saying that I'm bigotted. Get a grip guys. People have opinions.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:33
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Harold Fjord posted:That's an interesting response considering that you didn't answer my question at all, you deflected Bear in my mind I've got a few questions to answer.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:34
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empty whippet box posted:That's none of your business. Why? We're talking about it. We should be honest with each other. No?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:34
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Aginor posted:Can I ask how many of you are trans or transitioning? Just so I can get a read of the room? I am both, but I identify as non-binary while transitioning from a male identity to a feminine one. I am doing many of the things you would probably associate with transitioning to a woman though. So as a certified trans person I can confirm people mad about your opinions are correct and their gender doesn’t loving matter. Anyway I think you missed my question about Amy Schneider on the previous page and I would be curious about your answer.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:35
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Aginor posted:Why? We're talking about it. We should be honest with each other. No? Stop asking people what shape their genitals are, it is very weird and creepy.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:36
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Hot take whoa hey why is everyone arguing with my hot take stop dog piling me. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 7, 2022 22:37
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Harold Fjord posted:What did Lia Thomas take away from cis women? Please be very specific. I think the biggest thing here is anyone who swam in the same competitions felt they were hard done. If you competing with a 6 foot 4 pre-transitioner in the womans sport would you not be pissed if you spent your life training for it and had no shot? It would be like me wrestling Brock Lesnar. And I'm a big guy.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:38
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empty whippet box posted:Stop asking people what shape their genitals are, it is very weird and creepy. Is that what I asked?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:38
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Aginor posted:I think the biggest thing here is anyone who swam in the same competitions felt they were hard done. If you competing with a 6 foot 4 pre-transitioner in the womans sport would you not be pissed if you spent your life training for it and had no shot? It would be like me wrestling Brock Lesnar. And I'm a big guy. This is, again, deeply offensive and bigoted. You have no reason to be comparing a trans woman competing in a swim meet, to you wrestling brock lesnar. That is extremely not okay. Like what the gently caress. Aginor posted:Is that what I asked? You're asking people to reveal deeply personal information about their bodies, including the shape of their genitals, as though it has relevance to the argument. It does not, and you should not ask people poo poo like that. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 7, 2022 22:40
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Aginor posted:I think the biggest thing here is anyone who swam in the same competitions felt they were hard done. If you competing with a 6 foot 4 pre-transitioner in the womans sport would you not be pissed if you spent your life training for it and had no shot? It would be like me wrestling Brock Lesnar. And I'm a big guy. Anyone? Or specific people? Do you think the people that beat her feel that way? If someone feels " hard done by" is that feeling automatically a valid basis to exclude the competitor who beat them?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:42
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Timeless Appeal posted:You can be trans without transitioning. Fair play. And I respect that. Good evaluation. Unlike empty wippet who seems to think I want to know what their gentials look like (P.S. I've seen many of both and I don't care). I think it's the wrong stance to take. Instead of explaining people seem to be digging in and getting angry that its not just accepted. Thing is. It's very much accepted and most people don't care. I have friends from all walks of life and I simply don't care who you are, what you want to be. As long as you're happy. However, I need to stand my ground on the sports thing. Think there needs to more done around that. Amy Schneider I dont know but I will look for sure.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:42
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empty whippet box posted:This is, again, deeply offensive and bigoted. You have no reason to be comparing a trans woman competing in a swim meet, to you wrestling brock lesnar. That is extremely not okay. Like what the gently caress. Why not though? Explain to me? Sorry...when did I ask you anything in the second paragraph like what you've suggested? Feel like this may be a you problem.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:45
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Aginor posted:I think the biggest thing here is anyone who swam in the same competitions felt they were hard done. If you competing with a 6 foot 4 pre-transitioner in the womans sport would you not be pissed if you spent your life training for it and had no shot? It would be like me wrestling Brock Lesnar. And I'm a big guy. Well no, it would be like a trans man in the same weight class as Brock Lesnar fighting Brock Lesnar. Because MMA has weight classes to separate out fighters. You're making an argument for changing divisions in swimming but not for banning trans athletes.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:46
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Gumball Gumption posted:Well no, it would be like a trans man in the same weight class as Brock Lesnar fighting Brock Lesnar. Because MMA has weight classes to separate out fighters. You're making an argument for changing divisions in swimming but not for banning trans athletes. Am I not? Put everyone in the right division. That's why I'm not fighting Lesnar right. Thank christ someone sees whats I am saying. Surely things needs to be fair across the board? And as the transitioning is done (which I can't believe it ever is). Be where you want to be?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:48
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Aginor posted:Why not though? Explain to me? Comparing trans women to Brock Lesnar is loving disgusting for extremely obvious reasons. It's also extremely wrong on many levels such as the fact that Brock Lesnar is well known to use ped's constantly. You're saying that a mtf trans woman has that level of advantage over the people she is competing with. That's deeply offensive as well and you shouldn't be allowed to say such things without even attempting to back it up. I have repeatedly asked you for evidence of this claim. You have ignored that request repeatedly.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:48
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Aginor posted:I think the biggest thing here is anyone who swam in the same competitions felt they were hard done. If you competing with a 6 foot 4 pre-transitioner in the womans sport would you not be pissed if you spent your life training for it and had no shot? It would be like me wrestling Brock Lesnar. And I'm a big guy. I'm not particularly invested in this issue one way or the other, but I'm not sure how this would be any more or less fair than a 6 foot 4 cis woman participating in that sport? There already are huge disparities in body shapes and sizes among people of the same biological sex, some of which are going to be highly advantageous for success in certain sports. How is the occasional trans athlete participating at the highest levels of sports going to make the situation any more unfair for the less biologically blessed athletes than it already is?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:49
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empty whippet box posted:Comparing trans women to Brock Lesnar is loving disgusting for extremely obvious reasons. It's also extremely wrong on many levels such as the fact that Brock Lesnar is well known to use ped's constantly. You're saying that a mtf trans woman has that level of advantage over the people she is competing with. That's deeply offensive as well and you shouldn't be allowed to say such things without even attempting to back it up. I have repeatedly asked you for evidence of this claim. You have ignored that request repeatedly. Honestly, I've hit a point with you where you are gross. You have made some terrible remarks and insinuated I've asked some personal questioned which I have not. Not sure who you are but your point is moot. Not everyone is out to get you but stop accusing people of somehow sexually harrassing you. It's concerning that's your go to move.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:51
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Blurred posted:I'm not particularly invested in this issue one way or the other, but I'm not sure how this would be any more or less fair than a 6 foot 4 cis woman participating in that sport? There already are huge disparities in body shapes and sizes among people of the same biological sex, some of which are going to be highly advantageous for success in certain sports. How is the occasional trans athlete participating at the highest levels of sports going to make the situation any more unfair for the less biologically blessed athletes than it already is? So Lia Thomas sits where here?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:52
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What do we think of the many women who hate the fact this is happening and feel undermined after everything they've worked for? Devils advocate here
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Apr 7, 2022 22:54
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Aginor posted:Honestly, I've hit a point with you where you are gross. You have made some terrible remarks and insinuated I've asked some personal questioned which I have not. Not sure who you are but your point is moot. Not everyone is out to get you but stop accusing people of somehow sexually harrassing you. It's concerning that's your go to move. You have made assertions about trans athletes. Please back them up. You are now attempting to tone police your way out of backing up your claims. Please stop doing that and provide evidence for your claim that trans women have an intrinsic and serious advantage over their cis competitors, to the point that it is as if you had to fight Brock Lesnar. My tone in this post has been neutral, so it should be safe for you to respond to 
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Apr 7, 2022 22:54
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Aginor posted:Am I not? Put everyone in the right division. That's why I'm not fighting Lesnar right. Thank christ someone sees whats I am saying. Surely things needs to be fair across the board? I'd believe you more if you were arguing for opening up pro and college sports into not being gendered and using other factors to decide how athletes are split into competing groups. But your hot take was that trans athletes should be banned from sports.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:55
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empty whippet box posted:Comparing trans women to Brock Lesnar is loving disgusting for extremely obvious reasons. It's also extremely wrong on many levels such as the fact that Brock Lesnar is well known to use ped's constantly. You're saying that a mtf trans woman has that level of advantage over the people she is competing with. That's deeply offensive as well and you shouldn't be allowed to say such things without even attempting to back it up. I have repeatedly asked you for evidence of this claim. You have ignored that request repeatedly. What is your actually problem? You have accused me of asking about your genitals and not you're saying I've compared all trans women to Brock Lesnar? Are you that loving stupid?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:56
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"They would have an advantage because I feel like they would" isn't evidence. "Common sense" is wrong about a lot of things, just accept your first idea was wrong.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:56
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Aginor posted:If you competing with a 6 foot 4 pre-transitioner in the womans sport would you not be pissed if you spent your life training for it and had no shot? Why wouldn't this also apply to naturally huge athletes who are not transgender, like Yao Ming or Manute Bol? Do we restrict them too?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:56
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empty whippet box posted:You have made assertions about trans athletes. Please back them up. You are now attempting to tone police your way out of backing up your claims. Please stop doing that and provide evidence for your claim that trans women have an intrinsic and serious advantage over their cis competitors, to the point that it is as if you had to fight Brock Lesnar. My tone in this post has been neutral, so it should be safe for you to respond to Definitely not. I find you offensive. You don't want to debate. You want to accuse.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:57
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Aginor posted:What is your actually problem? You have accused me of asking about your genitals and not you're saying I've compared all trans women to Brock Lesnar? Are you that loving stupid? Please provide evidence for your claim that cis women competing against a trans woman is akin to you having to compete with Brock lesnar. You seem to be somehow not seeing it every time I ask so I figured I should just ask until you see it, since I'm sure it's just an honest mistake
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Apr 7, 2022 22:57
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Gumball Gumption posted:I'd believe you more if you were arguing for opening up pro and college sports into not being gendered and using other factors to decide how athletes are split into competing groups. But your hot take was that trans athletes should be banned from sports. I don't think they should. I think they should be open for all. Sport is sport.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:58
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I'm trans and on estrogen. Anecdotes are not data, but my physical strength is totally hosed to the point that a bag containing two moderately large and one small laptops is maybe my carrying limit. I also engage in a sport that's not reliant on muscle strength, but I don't have the time and resources to do it often. As a result I almost always place in the lower 10% of scores. I also don't tell anyone there I'm trans because of the attitudes being put forward by some of the posters here. There's no way at all it could affect my performance, but it's a bloody scary experience trying to exist and participate in spaces that don't affirm you've got a right to exist and where many people express opinions that could very easily lead to all this. Trans people are their gender. Nobody is going to make any changes to their presentation (even just how they outwardly identify) for sport. People who aren't trans and go on the wrong hormones experience the dysphoria that trans people feel - such as an HRT doctor who was microdosing estrogen for better skin and overshot the target once. And especially Alan Turing. People in high level sports are, by definition, not representative of average people. And even professional athletes who transition don't go on to dominate their sports. Especially in combat sports, as has been pointed out. This is a complete non issue, and infinitely so when it's targeted at kids. The only possible harm being done is in the minds of people who eat up this harmful narrative about trans people in sports. Whatever age you are, acceptance is a blessing that improves quality of life. Gendered sports are also a gently caress on several levels if you want to compete as a non-binary person. Trans people are their gender. Trans feminine people on HRT don't have an innate muscle advantage, and cis women can be tall too. Trans people are people and we're loving tired of attacks on our personhood and right to live a normal life being normalised and advancing every day. To all the posters in the thread who've been against trans inclusion in sports: continuing to support this stance won't make anyone happy. Not cis athletes or the lawmakers trying to pass these bills, or even anxious parents who watch too many scary news shows. Even if you "win", there will always be another issue, another part of us to hate (like how bathrooms were the hot topic before this. And excluding trans people from bathrooms excludes us from a lot of public life because everyone needs to pee!). This doesn't end even after trans people are legislated out of the right to exist as we choose to be. Be a part of ending the cycle of hate. You don't have to choose love, but even simple indifference is a huge step up. Take a look at yourselves and ask if you gave the faintest gently caress about this "issue" before the media started up on this. If you didn't care five years ago, maybe you can shrug now and let people play a sport that you'll never see, and which makes them happy.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:58
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empty whippet box posted:Please provide evidence for your claim that cis women competing against a trans woman is akin to you having to compete with Brock lesnar. You seem to be somehow not seeing it every time I ask so I figured I should just ask until you see it, since I'm sure it's just an honest mistake Tell me when I aksed about your genitals?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:58
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Aginor posted:Tell me when I aksed about your genitals? Asking who is trans is inappropriate and invasive. Someone telling you whether they are mtf or ftm includes deeply personal information about their bodies that you have no right to and would be inappropriate to ask of anyone, not just trans people. Now that that's settled can you please provide proof of your claim that cis women having to compete alongside trans women is comparable to you having to compete with Brock Lesnar?
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Apr 7, 2022 23:01
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Aginor posted:I think the biggest thing here is anyone who swam in the same competitions felt they were hard done. If you competing with a 6 foot 4 pre-transitioner in the womans sport would you not be pissed if you spent your life training for it and had no shot? It would be like me wrestling Brock Lesnar. And I'm a big guy. Aginor posted:I don't think they should. I think they should be open for all. Sport is sport. which is it op
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Apr 7, 2022 23:01
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Anticheese posted:I'm trans and on estrogen. Anecdotes are not data, but my physical strength is totally hosed to the point that a bag containing two moderately large and one small laptops is maybe my carrying limit. Respect to that. I'm definitely not disputing people. However I dont think we can keep pointing the finger and demanding we should all be part of something. Nor should we be extreme and get pissed when we're not. I'm a big lad. (not some neck beard weirdo but country strong) but I think we all have our place in life. And just by being unincluded from something for a wee bit doesnt mean you're not unicluded for ever. Lia Thomas is a strong women. But then we cant forget that a lot of women struggle with this dialogue.
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Apr 7, 2022 23:02
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Blurred posted:I'm not particularly invested in this issue one way or the other, but I'm not sure how this would be any more or less fair than a 6 foot 4 cis woman participating in that sport? There already are huge disparities in body shapes and sizes among people of the same biological sex, some of which are going to be highly advantageous for success in certain sports. How is the occasional trans athlete participating at the highest levels of sports going to make the situation any more unfair for the less biologically blessed athletes than it already is? Yes, exactly. Like, there's always going to be people who are multiple standard deviations from the norm, in both directions. Oh, you feel "hard done by?" Well that's life, bucko. There's so much variation in human physiology and experience. I was born with a disability that hosed with, among other things, my balance and my flexibility. I liked playing sports, but being honest about it: I was poo poo at it, and there was very little I could do about it even with practice and physiotherapy and all that other stuff. Was it unfair, in a way that required some sort of remedy, that other people were better than me without even trying hard? I don't think so. Was it frustrating? Yeah, it was. gently caress it, that's the way life is sometimes.
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Apr 7, 2022 23:06
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Aginor posted:Get a loving grip! You're basically saying its not okay to have a different opinion. As soon as you say you don't agree with anything regarding trans it deeply bigoted. Its not harmful to trans people in the slightest. If you look at my pro-nouns I'm very positive. I just don't think either direction should be competing until the research is greater. Is that bigotted? Spoken like one of the Forsaken
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Apr 7, 2022 23:07
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