|
Fights can be good even when they lack the tension of knowing who will win or lose. I've said it before but mcgillis vs gaellio at the end of IBO s1 is a great example of an extremely satisfying fight scene where there is pretty well no doubt who the winner will be from start to finish. People placing additional arbitrary expectations on a scene of a show or movie because the scene contains violence is always dumb. The origin moon fight isn't my favorite fight scene ever but there's not really any problems I can recall with its structure or choreography. It's there to show you zeon's new toys styling all over what the federation thought was their top of the line, more than serviceable equipment. It's not like anyone thought any of the black tristars, char, or ramba ral were going to die there, and the OVA makes no pretense of expecting you to think that. Which is definitely the better way for prequels to play out.
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 21:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 18:27 |
|
|
The Origin is an alternate reality where the Guntank and Guncannon weren't part of Project V, but suits built by Anaheim or the Federation as some early knockoff mobile suit things. I hate that because they were Tem Ray's true masterpieces and not that goofy Gundam.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 21:33
|
|
|
The Guntank could not fail, only be failed. And somehow it got into the eternal fail hands of Hayato.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 21:34
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:A guncannon with actual hands and a beam rifle, sure. In "The Origin", Kai piloted it before it got hands and a beam rifle in an upgrade. He still made it work.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 21:40
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:In "The Origin", Kai piloted it before it got hands and a beam rifle in an upgrade. He still made it work. Kai is the inverse of Hayato. Kai makes anything he touches better. Hayato takes things that are great and makes them worse.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 21:46
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:Kai is the inverse of Hayato. Kai makes anything he touches better. Hayato takes things that are great and makes them worse. Are you implying that, if Kai and Sayla adopted the orphans instead, we'd be talking about how amazing Katz is, and how he was pretty much the greatest ace in the AEUG?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 21:59
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Are you implying that, if Kai and Sayla adopted the orphans instead, we'd be talking about how amazing Katz is, and how he was pretty much the greatest ace in the AEUG? See, you're picking up what I'm putting down. Char would also be very very dead because Kai had him pegged from the start as a bad influence. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Apr 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 22:09
|
|
|
How much better than amuro was super newtype kai in the gundam?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 22:37
|
|
|
ninjewtsu posted:How much better than amuro was super newtype kai in the gundam? In the novel he never piloted it, just a Guncannon. However he was a strong enough Newtype he could track down Ghiren Zabi just by following his evil ambition, something no other Newtype on the field could. He was probably the strongest living Newtype and the only one who didn't join Zeon at the end besides Sayla who hosed off to a beach. In video game world he was a complete fuckin' harass secret bonus character
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 22:47
|
|
|
So above Amuro, but below Job John. Got it
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 22:50
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:So above Amuro, but below Job John. Got it I mean, it's unfair to hold them to the same standard. Job John was a hardened veteran by the time Kai joined up, while Kai was starting from 0.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 23:21
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/GBO2EN/status/1512188643716341761 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA This is going to be a beautiful disaster.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 00:05
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:I dont know why people get mad at the moon fight when the entire point of the battle is that the Federation is hopelessly lagging behind in mobile suit development and that you can't just apply tank squadron tactics to MS warfare. This is not a point gundam has ever needed to make since 1979
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 00:20
|
|
|
Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:This is not a point gundam has ever needed to make since 1979 It's a point they need to make in the Origin. If the Federation has some Mobile Suits, then it's harder to instinctively see the gap between their forces and Zeon's. Thus, we need to see them lose to justify why the Gundam is needed.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 00:27
|
|
|
Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:This is not a point gundam has ever needed to make since 1979 Not everyone has watched 0079, because some people are allergic to low-budget, slightly jank 70s animation. Those people are wrong and missing out, but they exist.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 00:30
|
|
|
You’ve inverted cause and effect, the moon battle doesn’t exist to justify the guncannons being useless, the guncannons exist to justify a shittily executed curbstomp fight on the moon
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 00:31
|
|
|
What would you prefer then? A Zaku 1 falling over and exploding when a Type 61 nudges its leg? Because unless you accept an early attempt at a feddie mobile suit to participate in that battle you're only gonna get a tank or the early guntanks and the result will be the same. Again, the intent of the battle is to emphasize just how badly out of touch Federation military is and what kind of slaughter the next nine months will be like. It's not Zeon apologia to show them wrecking poo poo at the start of the war, it's a statement of fact. Is it the most exciting action scene? No, but the scene is meant to send a message that things will get ugly, not to go "wow, cool robot!" Its a swift, bloody curbstomp and complaining about why a feddie pilot didnt do this or do that feels like an armchair general rant because things weren't presented the way they totally would have gone if *I* was in charge. Really I'm not sure what you want from the scene that wouldn't undercut that message. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 00:38
|
|
|
Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:You’ve inverted cause and effect, the moon battle doesn’t exist to justify the guncannons being useless, the guncannons exist to justify a shittily executed curbstomp fight on the moon Pretty much impossible. Gundam: The Origin had been running for years before the flashback arc, and that went for quite a while before it reached the moon. Your argument (if I can even call it that) demands that Yas had a major deviation from the original series in chapter 1 to justify a minor fight in volume 6, and for no other reason.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 00:45
|
|
|
Kanos posted:https://twitter.com/GBO2EN/status/1512188643716341761 How does that game even balance the different eras of mobile suits
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 00:51
|
|
|
By controlling like rear end.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 01:19
|
|
|
Argas posted:How does that game even balance the different eras of mobile suits generally the answer is "power creep" and/or "it doesn't"
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 01:34
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Pretty much impossible. Yeah, The Origin animation is literally a flashback in the overall main story and the things like "lovely mobile suits existing before good mobile suits" is a basic part of the changes to the setting. There's even another Gundam unit that appears briefly before getting wrecked during the opening. It isn't a 'lol zeon own' change, it's because "The Federation had crappier attempts at MS before they figure out how to really make it work" makes more sense. The story is focused fairly strongly on trying to make things build up more naturally. (And also fuckin' own changes like Sayla getting her own custom GM)
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 01:34
|
|
|
Ethiser posted:The Origin is an alternate reality where the Guntank and Guncannon weren't part of Project V, but suits built by Anaheim or the Federation as some early knockoff mobile suit things. I hate that because they were Tem Ray's true masterpieces and not that goofy Gundam. tbf the Guntank and Guncannon make perfect sense as suits developed by people who had no fuckin clue what they were really doing. One thing I like about Origin's tech is that it takes into account that the robots are interrupted test-units so they have some weird loadout/design issues for a while
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 01:44
|
|
|
Did they release the Sayla GM gunpla?
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 01:45
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Yeah, The Origin animation is literally a flashback in the overall main story and the things like "lovely mobile suits existing before good mobile suits" is a basic part of the changes to the setting. There's even another Gundam unit that appears briefly before getting wrecked during the opening. It didn't get wrecked. It killed an entire platoon of zakus except for gene and slender.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 01:49
|
|
|
Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:This is not a point gundam has ever needed to make since 1979 in a prequel series to the 1979 gundam show it does, in fact, need to make this point again. you might even say that making and justifying this point is the point. Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:You’ve inverted cause and effect, the moon battle doesn’t exist to justify the guncannons being useless, the guncannons exist to justify a shittily executed curbstomp fight on the moon the moon battle exists to establish the early state of warfare between zeon and the federation. this needs to be established because this is a prequel series, and thus its entire purpose is to allow the audience to viscerally experience events that occurred off screen before the beginning of the original gundam show. the events that occurred offsceen before the beginning of the original gundam show were primarily defined by the federation being curb stomped by zeon's mobile suits. because this is an extended sequence of these events, these events need to be fleshed out with additional drama to make them interesting for the audience to watch. this is part of what makes experiencing them viseral and exciting - if all we saw was what we already knew, there wouldn't really be much point in seeing it. if you do not buy into the concept of a gundam prequel, that's fine, but then i don't know why you watched gundam prequel movie #3 (4?) to begin with. the origin accomplishes this by expanding on the element of the federation being caught unprepared and wildly overconfident, because that fits with the federation's overall characterization across the franchise and if you're going to show someone being curb stomped it's more fun to watch someone get smashed in the face through their hubris. in this sense, the moon battle serves as the tipping point where the federation can no longer brush off how powerful the zeon military is - their technological advantage is so vast that the federation's extant military assets crumple like paper, which leads into the desperate state the federation is at the start of the 1979 show. this is important, because this justifies why the gundam is so important, which the show needs to do to sell toys and also because the central importance of the gundam is what a lot of the 1979 show's premise and drama is built around. the moon fight fits into the wider context and narrative of the origin and franchise for a lot of reasons besides "wow look at the robots smash together" with most of the pieces leading up to and justifying it being pre-established by a show from the late 70s which you are obviously already familiar with. do you have any specific criticisms of the moon battle or is "it's a one sided fight" actually all you can articulate? because on its own that's a dumb opinion. ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 01:50
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Did they release the Sayla GM gunpla? Not yet.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 01:50
|
|
|
Stairmaster posted:It didn't get wrecked. It killed an entire platoon of zakus except for gene and slender. I meant wrecked as in "It literally got destroyed"
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 01:52
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:tbf the Guntank and Guncannon make perfect sense as suits developed by people who had no fuckin clue what they were really doing. The Guntank is one of my favorite UC suit designs specifically because of that. The Guntank is awful, but it's realistically awful, you know that in a world where giant bipedal robots are a viable weapon of war you'd end up with government contractors building Guntanks because of a combination of misunderstanding the point and lobbying from the tank manufacturers that would be out of a job. The Guntank is basically the F-35 of the One-Year War. We need more sci-fi war stories that accurately depict that sometimes the military-industrial complex produces useless garbage.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 01:54
|
|
|
You'll be eating your words when Guntank is the high level meta in Evolution
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 02:03
|
|
|
you know that scene in gundam thunderbolt where you watch the gundam rip apart a zeku from the first person perspective of the zaku? i really like that scene. most people who watch the movie seem to agree that it was a really powerful and well executed scene. it is also a fight scene where one participant is curb stomped by another. it was good because rather than try to communicate the tension between two evenly matched combatants, it was instead communicating the terror and desperation of someone you already know is going to die. if, instead, the zaku had gotten some good licks in and managed to get the gundam up against the wall before io just barely scrapes out of a tough situation, it would have been a very bizarre scene in the context of the wider story, and at odds with the message that thunderbolt wanted to send. it's one of my favorite scenes in anime. loving love that fight scene
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 02:05
|
|
|
If you’re only argument for it is “but it needs to happen that way to justify The Origin as a narrative” then perhaps the takeaway here is that The Origin, especially the animated product version of it that is an unnecessary and questionable expansion of like half a volume of flashback, does not have a justifiable narrative existence Like, “mobile suits actually existed for 40 years before the one year war” sounds cool and all but its an idea that only causes more problems the more it is explored, because it’s loving stupid, and takes the original series’ explanation for why they were so terrifying (the invention of the airplane revolutionizing war by fundamentally changing the way you attack and defend territory and materiel) and replaced it with a far, far more facile explanation (nobody advances past the canvas biplane until 1970, at which point the MiG-21 is used to spontaneously conquer the western world because nobody figured out how to use aviation tactics in all that time) and the moon fight is, fundamentally, a symptom of a core flaw in the storytelling of The Origin. We did not need a fight on the moon where the black tri-stars do sick finishing moves on a squadron of mental infants unable to defend themselves, the Battle of Loum was a far better demonstration of mobile suit superiority to begin with. ninjewtsu posted:you know that scene in gundam thunderbolt where you watch the gundam rip apart a zeku from the first person perspective of the zaku? i really like that scene. most people who watch the movie seem to agree that it was a really powerful and well executed scene. it is also a fight scene where one participant is curb stomped by another. it was good because rather than try to communicate the tension between two evenly matched combatants, it was instead communicating the terror and desperation of someone you already know is going to die. if, instead, the zaku had gotten some good licks in and managed to get the gundam up against the wall before io just barely scrapes out of a tough situation, it would have been a very bizarre scene in the context of the wider story, and at odds with the message that thunderbolt wanted to send. While I do have my own significant criticisms of Thunderbolt, this moment does indeed rule, and does what it sets out to do excellently! The moon scene does not, because it does not portray “the Zeon have a massive technological and tactical advantage,” it portrays “wow, the feddies are fundamentally incapable of basic self defense or pattern recognition”
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 02:31
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:The Guntank is one of my favorite UC suit designs specifically because of that. The Guntank is awful, but it's realistically awful, you know that in a world where giant bipedal robots are a viable weapon of war you'd end up with government contractors building Guntanks because of a combination of misunderstanding the point and lobbying from the tank manufacturers that would be out of a job. I've said it before, I'll say it again. A short series about zeta-unicorn era UC from the perspective of Anaheim engineers or some military procurement officer. Finding out that gp-02's shield weak point is because of fifteen redesigns where they kept piling more and more important systems in and stripping off armor. An engineer throwing a poo poo fit when they tell him he has to put what amounts to a miniature colony laser on the ZZ's face. Trying to debug the zeta's error logs after the wave rider crash to explain how the biosensor interacts with ghosts. I just want to read the bug reports. quote:Error report: Dramatic shift in unit handling. Pentagon wars, but gundam. Caros fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 02:33
|
|
|
EDIT: I misread something and shouldn't post while not sober
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 02:36
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:What would you prefer then? A Zaku 1 falling over and exploding when a Type 61 nudges its leg? Because unless you accept an early attempt at a feddie mobile suit to participate in that battle you're only gonna get a tank or the early guntanks and the result will be the same. I was going to say I'd prefer to see the Feds use the Luna Tank:  But then I looked again and that's a Zeon unit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 02:48
|
|
|
Argas posted:How does that game even balance the different eras of mobile suits Mobile Suits are put at different costs and levels, for example a level 1 regular GM is a 100 cost* suit, Grandpa Gundam is 400, and the Nu Gundam is a 700 cost suit(which is the cap for cost in the game) *mind you that 100 and 150 cost suits are pretty much completely pointless filler since the lowest cost any match goes at is 200 cost, near as I can tell they only exist so some suits would be at level 3 at 200 cost and thus could use level 3 weapons and have a very slight power advantage against native 200 cost suits Yinlock posted:generally the answer is "power creep" and/or "it doesn't" I dunno I'd say it works out pretty okay with a few exceptions(like most of the Efreet variants in the game are way overtuned for the costs they're natively at) Also hopefully the Steam release unlike the PlayStation version will be region locked, a lot of GBO2's gameplay issues are exacerbated by it allowing global play with how it handles hosting
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 02:53
|
|
|
Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:If you’re only argument for it is “but it needs to happen that way to justify The Origin as a narrative” then perhaps the takeaway here is that The Origin, especially the animated product version of it that is an unnecessary and questionable expansion of like half a volume of flashback, does not have a justifiable narrative existence Normal UC mech development is complete nonsense for the most part*. New machines are pumped out at loving absurd rates because toy sales, The Origin slows that process down in an attempt to not be so ludicrous. I think the animation just gave you the impression that Origin does nothing but glorify Zeon(because the animation absolutely does) e: *and that's fine, it's an anime nobody wants you to spend 30 episodes detailing every machine's development history and applications, but origin has that kind of breathing room and uses it Yinlock fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 02:56
|
|
|
wdarkk posted:I was going to say I'd prefer to see the Feds use the Luna Tank: It looks pretty cute in motion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt4wfXEMDYA Yinlock posted:I think the animation just gave you the impression that Origin does nothing but glorify Zeon(because the animation absolutely does) How, exactly? It treats every victory Zeon with a hollow dread. The moon fight literally ends with a bunch of Zekes gathered around burning corpses in silence while the music cues tell us that what we just witnessed was in fact a bad thing. Unless you consider Char's Machiavellian rise to power as an emblem of all Zeons' glory and not the origin story for a villain. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 02:56
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:How, exactly? It treats every victory Zeon with a hollow dread. The moon fight literally ends with a bunch of Zekes gathered around burning corpses in silence while the music cues tell us that what we just witnessed was in fact a bad thing. Unless you consider Char's Machiavellian rise to power as an emblem of all Zeons' glory and not the origin story for a villain. Yeah sorry I was letting my own pet peeves talk there, mostly in how they conveniently lost interest in animating Origin at the point where it stops being The Char Show
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 03:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 18:27 |
|
|
Yinlock posted:Yeah sorry I was letting my own pet peeves talk there, mostly in how they conveniently lost interest in animating Origin at the point where it stops being The Char Show I hope Doann's Island does well enough that they get off their rear end and just do the whole show.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 03:13
|
|