|
Yeah idk how much you know about what goes into transitioning lionarcher, but the full process is gnarly and not something that someone on the fence is going to decide to do. Like if you read up on gender affirming surgery and even have the reaction 'yeah that sounds like something I should do' instead of 'oh my god they do what!?' then congrats there's a 99.9% chance that you are transgender. Same mostly applies to FFS, too. There are also a bunch of steps to transitioning before that point that trans people find extremely validating and affirming and that non-trans people have largely the opposite reaction to and, afaik, in basically all cases you can not start getting surgery until you've already done most of the non-surgical transitioning steps. Unless things have changed from half a decade ago, you can just put teens who are unsure or questioning on puberty blockers with basically zero ill-effects until they are certain what they want to do. Or at least can where states aren't actively trying to keep kids/teens from getting put on puberty blockers. (also my knowledge here is partly out of date, so if I'm mischaracterizing anything plz correct it) Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Apr 8, 2022 |
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 03:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 17:06 |
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:Going through male puberty as a feminine person is horrible, and I'm not exaggerating when I say traumatizing. I feel like this is an important thing to note, both as the experience of trans people who've gone through the wrong puberty, but also in terms of: why no one is transitioning just to dominate sport or hang out in women's restrooms or whatever the nonsensical panic of the day is. If you are cis and you go through puberty that doesn't align with your gender identity, that's also really horrible in the exact same way, which is yet another reason why literally no one is doing it on a whim. Not only that, we have proof that it's severely hosed up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 03:19
|
|
|
Again, thank you all for the replies that went in depth into it. I appreciate it. Glad my gut was wrong on this one. The poster who posted the stats on the study’s relating to happiness and transitioning pre-op post op in particular what I was looking for thanks, and I Did not know Surgeries were not happening on minors. Not that it matters, but I do have a queer friends, I’ve just never felt comfortable asking questions about this stuff. I’ve always thought it was my place just to be supportive. I always felt like these questions lingered on the side or edge of sounding like I was dismissive of them being who they were, and I’ve never felt that way. LionArcher fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 03:27
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:I do have a trans question in general. Not about the sports stuff. I do appreciate the fact that this thread clearly goes over this sports poo poo is bullshit, and I'll use it when dealing with the one friend who usually says "trans folks are fine, but what about those sports..." (Yes, this friend is cool minus listening to Joe Rogen and those kind of things). Literally no one is pressuring anyone to transition. If anything the enormous social pressure is in the opposite direction, and there is significant institutional pushback as well to even get treatment, especially in places like the UK where waits can be years to receive care. The WPATH Standards Of Care are the internationally recognized basis for best practices for transgender medical care, currently in its 7th edition since original publication in 1979. They are, by most measures, conservative minimums of treatment. Per them, medical treatment of adolescents is limited to puberty suppression prior to age 16, and can potentially begin hormone therapy thereafter with parental consent. You can read the standards starting on Page 18 of the linked PDF. A very important passage here that deserves posting in full: quote:Risks of Withholding Medical Treatment for Adolescents Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 03:39
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:Again, thank you all for the replies that went in depth into it. I appreciate it. Glad my gut was wrong on this one. Well, you know, I think honestly it's a subject that is fraught with emotion and a lot of people don't know the details. So, I do appreciate you taking the time to ask and listen. There's also a lot of propaganda, in that I think one could be a reasonable person and legitimately believe that minors are getting life-altering surgeries upon request. It's emphatically not true, but I understand, given the discourse, why a lot of people believe it is true. The other point I'd like to make is: the reason I hang out in these threads is that trans people don't need the additional burden of explaining this poo poo. I'm not going to get everything right all the time, as an ally; I'm still learning and growing myself -- but I feel like I do know enough that I can talk about the basics and hopefully take the weight off trans people having to justify or explain their own existence, even just a bit. Further, I'm grateful that I know so many people who have taken the time to explain this stuff to me, and I just want to pass it on.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 03:42
|
|
|
I'd to point out 7 pages in not a single person has disputed my first post in the thread with any substance(data, studies, statistics) whatsoever including the person who posted frankly horrible things at people in their PMs before getting banned. My hope was that this thread would involve people making misguided but at least vaguely logical arguments against, and then getting disproven with the science. Here's Aginor's PM to another poster in this thread(who is currently probated and gave me permission to post), to let you know the kind of person who is currently in this thread against transgender people competing in athletics. Content warning: Transphobia Aginor posted:SO here's my opinion of you from what I can tell. I am putting this here not to "post about posters" but to point out that most of the people pretending to care about "fairness in sports" are actually covering up some pretty virulent bigotry. In my experience people who seriously care about fairness in sports actually come armed with facts and legit concerns.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 06:24
|
|
|
If this thread has become a place for people to ask questions / expose their ignorance about transgender people, then there's something I've often wondered but have never found an appropriate time to ask. Basically, it's this: what's the relationship between being transgender and gender essentialism? A lot of conservative forces around the world (particularly religious ones) get a lot of mileage from the intuitive idea that "men are men and women are women", appealing to the idea that the genders are defined by some immutable essence (forged either by God or biology) which separates humans into two different and separate natures. This "common sense" intuition is then usually leveraged in service of socially regressive gender roles, which of course typically work to the benefit of men and to the detriment of women. While there are of course biological differences between the sexes, I think most of us will agree that many, if not most of the manifest differences in gender expression are socially constructed and that we are enculturated into somehow acting as "men" and "women". What I don't understand is where being transgender fits into this scheme. It seems to necessitate the belief that one is essentially a man or woman, and that this immutable nature defines who one is irrespective of biological sex or social expectations. But what exactly is this "essence" of gender and what does it correspond to? I don't think it can correspond to a preference for stereotypically masculine or feminine behaviours, because the distinction between masculine and feminine behaviours are largely social constructions that don't correspond to any natural kinds (as I see it, at least). Someone obviously doesn't believe themselves to be a transgender woman, for example, simply because they have a preference for wearing dresses and knitting: enacting crude stereotypes of femininity has nothing to do with making one a woman. But if gender is primarily a social construction, then it appears to suggest that gender is an essentially empty category: what, then, does it actually mean for a transgender woman to be a woman given that there are no necessary characteristics that a man or woman need possess? If, on the other hand, we see gender as something essential and as deeply rooted in someone's nature, then how do we avoid the idea that femininity and masculinity are immutable aspects of what a person is, as conservatives like to argue, and that it is therefore perfectly legitimate to distinguish between masculine and feminine pursuits? Isn't defining oneself by one's gender at least essentially limiting and reductive? I've always thought about this issue from the perspective that - as a cis gender male - my gender has never been an issue for me, and that I will probably never really understand the experience of women and transgender people (for whom gender obviously is much more of a day-to-day obstacle) and that it is certainly not may place to question their judgment or their identity. But if there are any transgender people here who would be interested in explaining what gender means to them (or to point me in the direction of any philosophical literature on this topic) then I'd be very interested to hear it. Blurred fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 08:43
|
|
|
Here's my take as a cis white male. Who gives a loving poo poo let them play sports and do whatever. This isn't a hot take, or disputing the op, literally my say and opinions should hold no water on the ability for someone to play a sport, because it's about giving someone a goal in life, a drive, and the feeling that they themselves through hard effort and their own personal drive did something and got where they want. Why should I tell anyone that they can't play a sport because they aren't some puritan standard. gently caress that
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 08:45
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:I'd to point out 7 pages in not a single person has disputed my first post in the thread with any substance(data, studies, statistics) whatsoever including the person who posted frankly horrible things at people in their PMs before getting banned. That said there are 2-3 papers I posted earlier that I didn't have time to review yet. I just want to have a clear understanding of the science to shut up transphobes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 09:17
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:I'd to point out 7 pages in not a single person has disputed my first post in the thread with any substance(data, studies, statistics) whatsoever including the person who posted frankly horrible things at people in their PMs before getting banned. e: uh talking about alginor, not jayxon obv A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 10:41
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Here's Aginor's PM to another poster in this thread(who is currently probated and gave me permission to post), to let you know the kind of person who is currently in this thread against transgender people competing in athletics. This is genuinely disgusting. I think this topic in particular really draws in the bigots because its fundamentally (consciously or not) a combination of sexism, believing women are inferior to men, and transphobia, not accepting that transwomen are women. LionArcher posted:Again, thank you all for the replies that went in depth into it. I appreciate it. Glad my gut was wrong on this one. Thats one of the interesting things about transgender issues in general, the facts and science do often conflict with our gut, since what we call our gut feeling is just the preconceptions that have been drilled into us. It feels innate but it's learned.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 10:43
|
|
|
Blurred posted:If this thread has become a place for people to ask questions / expose their ignorance about transgender people, then there's something I've often wondered but have never found an appropriate time to ask. Basically, it's this: what's the relationship between being transgender and gender essentialism? The answer is: it’s complicated and no one really knows and once you unlock the Pandora’s box of realizing that the default gender binaries were never well defined in the first place and neither were the default sex binaries you are in for an exciting world of identity crisis and/or a playground of social construction. This website is a pretty great introduction to some of the concepts at play https://genderdysphoria.fyi
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 12:01
|
|
|
E: oops , not up to date on acceptable language troon
BIG-DICK-BUTT-FUCK fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 12:23
|
|
|
Internaut! posted:After all the only reason anyone's even talking about MTF trans women playing women's sports is that we're seeing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again how absolutely middling male athletes transition as fully grown adults, and then utterly dominate women's sport. Hey did you ever find any evidence of this? Cis guy giving my best understanding here on gender stuff. Gender essentialism is bullshit but it's deeply rooted in our society. So for a long time trans people were expected to perform gender essentialism of their gender. It's possible that they still are in some places though I think generally we are getting better about that as a society. But this really complicates trans stuff because a child might experiment with pronouns or "cross dressing" without being trans at all. Trans kids will probably want to do gender stereotyped stuff, not because gender essentialism is "correct" but cuz they've been immersed in it their whole life. My understanding of what it means to be trans is a disconnect between what your sex organs are doing and what you the rest of your self expects them to be doing. This is in terms of hormones mostly and physical development but those interrelate. Then of course that stretches out to the bullshitty gender stuff we do collectively. Trans women can want to do "manly" things as much as cis women. Problem is our society has entirely invented the concept of "manly" things to begin with and it's all bullshit Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 14:02
|
|
|
Squinty posted:Do I need data to support the argument that tall people are better at basketball? This sounds unfair to me and we really ought to have a talk about banning people above average height for their gender from sports
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 14:24
|
|
|
Blurred posted:What I don't understand is where being transgender fits into this scheme. It seems to necessitate the belief that one is essentially a man or woman, and that this immutable nature defines who one is irrespective of biological sex or social expectations. But what exactly is this "essence" of gender and what does it correspond to? I don't think it can correspond to a preference for stereotypically masculine or feminine behaviours, because the distinction between masculine and feminine behaviours are largely social constructions that don't correspond to any natural kinds (as I see it, at least). Someone obviously doesn't believe themselves to be a transgender woman, for example, simply because they have a preference for wearing dresses and knitting: enacting crude stereotypes of femininity has nothing to do with making one a woman. But if gender is primarily a social construction, then it appears to suggest that gender is an essentially empty category: what, then, does it actually mean for a transgender woman to be a woman given that there are no necessary characteristics that a man or woman need possess? If, on the other hand, we see gender as something essential and as deeply rooted in someone's nature, then how do we avoid the idea that femininity and masculinity are immutable aspects of what a person is, as conservatives like to argue, and that it is therefore perfectly legitimate to distinguish between masculine and feminine pursuits? Isn't defining oneself by one's gender at least essentially limiting and reductive? So, first thing, I don't believe the existence of trans people necessitates an immutable gender essence. But, I do feel like that is what I have, so I'm going to relay some of my experiences. This is just me, personally. Everybody is different. Transitioning, for me, is primarily about feeling at home in my body. When I saw myself as a man, it was just a person in the mirror. The first time I saw myself as a woman, I instantly recognized it as me. The changes hormones have made to my body, it's like a big tension has unknotted itself. I can relax in a way I just couldn't before. I can't understand where these feelings come from, except that I have something built into my brain that just prefers it when I am female. There's no extrinsic benefit. I have also adopted some more feminine behaviours, such as dressing differently, but this is mostly just as a way of fitting in. It is important to be seen as my gender, and presentation helps with that. But it doesn't feel as viscerally necessary as the body aspect. Cis people tend to be more gender conforming, and it makes sense to me. Masculine coded hobbies were more available to me growing up, and if I was cis, I might have more typically feminine interests because that's what I would have grown up with. I do not feel like I am limiting myself by defining myself as a woman. It's just one aspect about me. There are plenty of people who do feel as though the binary is reductive and define themselves outside of it, but it works for describing my own gender. Also, I don't mean this in any way as a slight against you, but questions about my presentation are a constant. If I do something feminine, they think "does she think that makes her a woman? That's just stereotypes." And if I do something masculine, it's "If you were really a woman, you wouldn't do that." This level of scrutiny is only leveled as trans people. The question of "Why do you do gender conforming things?" is a big complicated one, but it seems to get directed at trans people a whole lot, even though it equally if not more applies to cis people. Dr. Stab fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 15:33
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:
For some reason it's cracking me up that this person thinks gender reassignment is a viable strategy to get out of sexual assault charges by becoming a woman. If there's one thing we all know about cops it's that they absolutely love queer people and don't think they are freaks at all and would never rough them up or charge them with anything
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 16:14
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:For some reason it's cracking me up that this person thinks gender reassignment is a viable strategy to get out of sexual assault charges by becoming a woman. there is a phenomenon you see a lot in british terfs- if nothing else, thanks are due to our pal from earlier in the thread for demonstrating how flat out weird those people are- where their problems with trans people are inextricably tied to preexisting bizarre gender role hangups. somewhere in their heads, the thought 'the cops can't go after a gay woman for sexual assault' has been sitting as an assumed fundamental truth of the universe, and so when they start scrambling for a justification for their fears of trans people they push it out there, and react very badly to being told "no, that is not how this has ever worked." you'd think, if that was a genuine concern, learning that it is not now and has never been a 'problem' would be reassuring. but no, it enrages them more. bizarre stuff.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 16:54
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:there is a phenomenon you see a lot in british terfs- if nothing else, thanks are due to our pal from earlier in the thread for demonstrating how flat out weird those people are- where their problems with trans people are inextricably tied to preexisting bizarre gender role hangups. somewhere in their heads, the thought 'the cops can't go after a gay woman for sexual assault' has been sitting as an assumed fundamental truth of the universe, and so when they start scrambling for a justification for their fears of trans people they push it out there, and react very badly to being told "no, that is not how this has ever worked." Admitting you're wrong about part of your world view pretty much means you're rebuilding it all and people suck at that and it's just so much easier to say "gently caress you buddy"
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 17:04
|
|
|
Yeah it feels bad to realize that you aren't cool and smart and better at science but just a huge loving rear end in a top hat
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 17:06
|
|
|
Dr. Stab posted:The question of "Why do you do gender conforming things?" is a big complicated one, but it seems to get directed at trans people a whole lot, even though it equally if not more applies to cis people. This is true, but as you point out above, cis people generally seem to be more gender conforming. Cis people definitely get "Why do you not do gender conforming things?" or "Why do you do gender non-conforming things?" all the time if you're a cis man who wears makeup or dresses femme or a cis woman who wears their hair really short or... come to think of it, it feels like it's a lot easier to think of examples of men being non-conforming than women. Like, women can be considered "butch" (with all the baggage that carries), but I don't know that I've seen or heard a lot of things like "She dresses like a man." If I had to extrapolate from there, I'd say it (at least partially) comes from toxic masculinity and/or misogyny, where a man doing something "like a woman" is "a step down" or "lesser" and therefore incomprehensible, but a woman being more masculine is just... aspiring to power, I guess?
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 19:26
|
|
|
Almost all bigotry/transphobia on a gender basis comes from misogyny, homophobia, and the combination of the two. That's why transgender men are basically invisible in all of these culture war issues(not that I want them to be targetted). I'm aware that's not total, transgender men definitely are targeted and abused.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 19:56
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Almost all bigotry/transphobia on a gender basis comes from misogyny, homophobia, and the combination of the two. Trans men have been the primary target of transphobic rhetoric and legislation in the last few years. The social contagion narrative that has been very effective is focused on trans men. Transphobes also talk a bunch about "ruining fertile wombs and breasts," and get really mad about "people who have periods" phrasing. In the transphobic worldview, trans women tend to be the perverts seducing kids, and trans men are the victims. The people passing these healthcare bans are thinking "Our daughters are being corrupted!" The invisibility is a part of the attack. They deny the agency of trans men, so the best they get is pity instead of hatred. But the damage is still done to them. Also, it wasn't that long ago in history that a woman could get arrested for wearing pants. Being allowed to wear "men's" clothes was the result of massive effort to break down barriers. And, I think in recent years, there's been more of a push to remove the stigma on male femininity. It's just lagging behind because there wasn't as much of a need for a movement of male social liberation to drive those changes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 21:07
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:I'd to point out 7 pages in not a single person has disputed my first post in the thread with any substance(data, studies, statistics) whatsoever including the person who posted frankly horrible things at people in their PMs before getting banned. Okay, I'll say it. Your original post is bad by D&D standards, not because it says YES, but because it has absolutely no information whatsoever, not even anything about the Olympic Games' current rules under which trans athletes may complete. Those rules used to require gonadectomy for trans women athletes, but not anymore. Now, the rules for trans women athletes require having spent a certain period of time living as a woman, and no more than a certain amount of testosterone in the body for a specific length of time prior to competition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports#Olympics In non-contact casual and youth sports, there may be no need for any qualifiers to the YES, because no one's physical safety is at undue risk. When considering casual or youth contact sports like rugby or possibly wrestling, there may be a need for qualifiers to the YES, simply because greater physical strength is an issue that could lead to accidental injury in these sports. The qualifiers may be something in regard to whether a trans girl or trans woman is on puberty blockers/female hormones, and for how long. Or they may just be something like boxing's weight classes, which aren't inherently sex-based but have a similar goal of "reduce the risk that someone who is bigger will badly injure someone else". This WebMD article is the best I have for a more nuanced perspective than just YES https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20210715/do-trans-women-athletes-have-advantages A notable quote from this article: "A number of states that have introduced bills to ban trans women in sports have said they're trying to save women’s sports. But in addition to these bans, they're also introducing legislation to try to limit the lives of trans people in other ways. They're showing their true colors." The article refers to an institution called Women's Sports Policy Working Group, whom I had never heard of before today. Here is their website: https://womenssportspolicy.org/ A quote from their website is, "Girls’/Women’s Competitive Sport Needs Safeguards and Trans Girls/Women Need to be Included with Appropriate Conditions." I don't know enough about this group to endorse them, but I do think their perspective is worth investigating.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 21:24
|
|
|
So that WebMD article doesn't list any actual examples, and most of the statements are qualified with the same "I feel like it would have to be this way". The idea of safety in contact sports comes up but I still haven't seen any examples of it happening. Following from that would be any reasoning why it was unique to them being trans, instead of just all people having a variety of body types.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 21:53
|
|
|
If a sport is so dangerous that having a stronger-than-average player will result in serious injury maybe we ought to be taking a look at the rules at the very least if not reevaluating entirely whether we should have the sport at all There's some pretty strong cis women in the world
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 22:07
|
|
|
Dr. Stab posted:Trans men have been the primary target of transphobic rhetoric and legislation in the last few years. The social contagion narrative that has been very effective is focused on trans men. Transphobes also talk a bunch about "ruining fertile wombs and breasts," and get really mad about "people who have periods" phrasing. In the transphobic worldview, trans women tend to be the perverts seducing kids, and trans men are the victims. The people passing these healthcare bans are thinking "Our daughters are being corrupted!" Fair point, and I'll back away from my statement. JKR specifically uses this "poor tomboy girls who want to wear pants are being told they are transgender and we're losing women to this idea" bullshit in her writings Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 22:41
|
|
|
Victar posted:https://womenssportspolicy.org/ From their "About us" quote:Our Mission This is simply a polite wording of the same argument that people tend to make about transgender athletes everywhere else. That transgender women will have advantages that are undeniable especially if they went through male puberty and this will displace cisgender women unfairly. quote:Transgender athletes are rare. Aren’t there so few trans girls and women that we should just make an exception and let them in based on their gender identity? This is all bullshit. Elsewhere the site says it's becoming increasingly clear that male puberty gives advantages that don't go away with HRT, which is the standard argument you'll see everywhere else. That "people who have been through male puberty hold permanent and clear advantages". But again, not actually linking to that preponderance of evidence. The site also makes reference to "biological males" and "biological females", a largely meaningless term from a scientific standpoint, while trying to argue it's coming from science. In short, it's a churched up "real women are losing their spot unfairly" with a nice website.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 22:53
|
|
|
I love the math they're doing there If you join a baseball team and play 20 games with them you're depriving 20 other people of their chance to play because they could have traded out the position every single game and 20 different people would have taken turns being shortstop this season if it weren't for YOU
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 22:58
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:I love the math they're doing there Honestly the way we worship star performers in sports, even in youth leagues, is really hosed up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 23:01
|
|
|
While people who went through male puberty will of course have the strength advantages etc over those who went through female puberty what I'm curious about is has there been studies that show that HRT completely eradicates the advantageous male biology like higher bone density to the point a trans woman is on an equal playing field than a cis woman?
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 23:12
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:Honestly the way we worship star performers in sports, even in youth leagues, is really hosed up. Yeah true
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 23:13
|
|
|
Just Chamber posted:While people who went through male puberty will of course have the strength advantages etc over those who went through female puberty what I'm curious about is has there been studies that show that HRT completely eradicates the advantageous male biology like higher bone density to the point a trans woman is on an equal playing field than a cis woman? The complete lack of systemic success of trans women in sports is the proof in the pudding imo
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 23:16
|
|
|
This thread is great and even expands the issue beyond trans rights as it’s all basic loving human rights / “don’t be a loving rear end in a top hat” Summary Gender is a social construct: Blurred posted:A lot of conservative forces around the world (particularly religious ones) get a lot of mileage from the intuitive idea that "men are men and women are women", appealing to the idea that the genders are defined by some immutable essence (forged either by God or biology) which separates humans into two different and separate natures. This "common sense" intuition is then usually leveraged in service of socially regressive gender roles, which of course typically work to the benefit of men and to the detriment of women. While there are of course biological differences between the sexes, I think most of us will agree that many, if not most of the manifest differences in gender expression are socially constructed and that we are enculturated into somehow acting as "men" and "women". Sports are, by definition, inherently “unfair” with arbitrary rules: Victar posted:Those rules used to require gonadectomy for trans women athletes, but not anymore. Now, the rules for trans women athletes require having spent a certain period of time living as a woman, and no more than a certain amount of testosterone in the body for a specific length of time prior to competition. VitalSigns posted:This sounds unfair to me and we really ought to have a talk about banning people above average height for their gender from sports Scratch a liberal, and a conservative bleeds: How are u posted:I'm someone who was slightly sympathetic to the argument that there need to be rules and regulations regarding where and how trans-women can compete in sports, because it seemed so obvious that people who go through male-puberty will, on a large enough scale, end up with some physical differences that could prove advantageous in sport compared to people who go through female-puberty. (please pardon me if my terminology is wrong, I acknowledge my ignorance). Squinty posted:Personally, I'd lean towards allowing transwomen to compete, and then in 20 years if every center in the WNBA and every middle blocker at the Olympics is transgender, maybe then you reevaluate. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 23:22
|
|
|
Just Chamber posted:While people who went through male puberty will of course have the strength advantages etc over those who went through female puberty what I'm curious about is has there been studies that show that HRT completely eradicates the advantageous male biology like higher bone density to the point a trans woman is on an equal playing field than a cis woman? There was already a study posted in this thread that studies that. mobby_6kl posted:I've seen transphobes cite this article as proof that trans people shouldn't be allowed in sport https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref Obviously that's one study, more are needed. Bone mass density is kind of a canard. If you think it matters, you're going to have to start banning black women from women's sports too. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Apr 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 23:50
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:There was already a study posted in this thread that studies that. I imagine they’ve at least fantasised about that possibility, yes. Look at all the racist bullshit about Black people and their “advantage” in sport, as well as its supposed origins.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 23:57
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2022 23:58
|
|
|
While yes I agree there's a lot of crossover in transphobia and racism, it underscores an important point. People bring up bone density and other poo poo up all the time in these discussions and almost all of the people doing so have no clue what they're talking about.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2022 00:06
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Bone mass density is kind of a canard. If you think it matters, you're going to have to start banning black women from women's sports too. Please don't show this to the IOC  Jaxyon posted:While yes I agree there's a lot of crossover in transphobia and racism, it underscores an important point. I think it's very easy to argue that the concept of femininity itself is inexorably linked to white supremacy in our society. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Apr 9, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2022 00:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 17:06 |
|
|
Dr. Stab posted:Trans men have been the primary target of transphobic rhetoric and legislation in the last few years. The social contagion narrative that has been very effective is focused on trans men. Transphobes also talk a bunch about "ruining fertile wombs and breasts," and get really mad about "people who have periods" phrasing. In the transphobic worldview, trans women tend to be the perverts seducing kids, and trans men are the victims. The people passing these healthcare bans are thinking "Our daughters are being corrupted!" I'd gotten the impression that was a specifically British TERF thing, screeching about how men transitioning was 'stealing their lesbians'. Victar posted:A notable quote from this article: "A number of states that have introduced bills to ban trans women in sports have said they're trying to save women’s sports. But in addition to these bans, they're also introducing legislation to try to limit the lives of trans people in other ways. They're showing their true colors." It's notable that the same people and parties pushing these bills have also repeatedly and consistently cut school budgets at the high school and college level, which leads directly to womens' sports programs getting cut as they aren't as self-sustaining financially as men's football and basketball.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2022 00:36
|
|