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Just Chamber posted:While people who went through male puberty will of course have the strength advantages etc over those who went through female puberty what I'm curious about is has there been studies that show that HRT completely eradicates the advantageous male biology like higher bone density to the point a trans woman is on an equal playing field than a cis woman? I'm not in grad school anymore so I don't have easy access to sources, but there is some evidence that HRT does in fact do that, or at least that it means a pre-HRT person will have a similar time to their cohort as the same person post-HRT. This study is by one of the same people as some of the material that gets quoted as pro-excluding trans athletes. quote:As a group, the eight study participants had remarkably similar age grade scores in both male and female gender, making it possible to state that transgender women run distance races at approximately the same level, for
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Apr 9, 2022 02:00
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Just Chamber posted:While people who went through male puberty will of course have the strength advantages etc over those who went through female puberty what I'm curious about is has there been studies that show that HRT completely eradicates the advantageous male biology like higher bone density to the point a trans woman is on an equal playing field than a cis woman? You know what’s great? In relation to sports: It doesn’t mean a god drat thing either way. Even entertaining the idea is to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of sports and athleticism. Even better? Anyone who gives a drat about this in relation to sports is transphobic aka anti-human rights and therefor their opinion on the matter is invalid. It speaks the core of one’s character is this bothers someone even in the slightest.
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Apr 9, 2022 02:57
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Harold Fjord posted:Hey did you ever find any evidence of this? Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion. But when many ITT won't even go so far as to admit the reason this issue is being talked about is that there's a recurring theme in sport of middling to inadequate men transitioning to women and reaping the rewards, I don't see much point in debate. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 9, 2022 02:59
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Those sure are not at all citations. You haven't even provided names so I only assume you are bullshitting. Are you talking about the swimmer who won a single event? Not sure her winning one event proves she is totally dominating the sport. There are dozens of sports and hundreds, if not thousands, of events but trans women make headlines every time they win. Your three examples, if real, sound like statistical noise. Those trans women regularly lose to cis women as well. You aren't providing any figures or analysis, just your gut feels Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 03:03
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Liquid Communism posted:I'd gotten the impression that was a specifically British TERF thing, screeching about how men transitioning was 'stealing their lesbians'. It's the rhetoric by which they successfully passed laws outlawing healthcare for trans youth in several states. Some of them even cite Abigail Shrier (author of Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters) in the laws themselves.
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Apr 9, 2022 03:15
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Internaut! posted:But when many ITT won't even go so far as to admit the reason this issue is being talked about is that there's a recurring theme in sport of middling to inadequate men transitioning to women and reaping the rewards, I don't see much point in debate. Your entire arguments rests on the fact that sports need to fair but you haven’t shown how that can possible be even between cis gendered athletes. Instead you seem to want to be spout transphobic nonsense. Apparently hate speech and anti-human rights rhetoric is allowed in D&D as long folks speak with the veneer of decorum.
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Apr 9, 2022 03:20
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Internaut! posted:Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion. Could you please give us the names of the people you are talking about? You were asked to provide at least 9 examples by the moderator of this forum. Where are your 9 examples? You have given zero so far.
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Apr 9, 2022 03:36
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Blurred posted:What I don't understand is where being transgender fits into this scheme. It seems to necessitate the belief that one is essentially a man or woman, and that this immutable nature defines who one is irrespective of biological sex or social expectations. When we move beyond the binary, we also move beyond gender or sex being this one monolithic thing. Instead, when we say gender what we're really talking about is: Sexual Characteristics--Biological features of your body which while not determining your personal gender are foundational in the social construct of gender. Gender Identity--The word that you use to describe how you exist within or in opposition to the gender spectrum. Male, female, non-binary, agender, etc. Gender Expression--How you actually express your gender. When we move beyond the binary, we also accept that feminine does not equal woman. Men can be feminine. Women can be feminine. Women can be masculine sometimes and feminine other times. Beyond that though, gender expression also overlaps with race, ethnicity, and culture. The county I moved to in NC offered protections for natural hairstyles alongside trans protections and this isn't an accident. Protecting a Black woman's right to wear her hair naturally is protecting her gender expression just like it protects my right to wear tunic tees. Also Kinda Sexuality--who you want to or not bang. This of course impacts and overlaps with gender while also being very different than your gender. But it matters. The big fight that gender advocates really face is getting across the idea that as trans folks, we're not that different from cis folks. Not in a we-all-bleed sense, but more our gender experience is not all that different. All people develop their gender over time. You're not born with a gender identity, you develop one. And gender expression I would argue is something that people don't cement until past adolescence and everyone struggles with. Like loving Joe Rogan literally does hormone treatment to affirm his gender identity just like me. There are no rules to gender or being trans. I struggle sometimes because I do actually care about looking cute, but I also don't like super girly stuff. I still wear men's sneakers because they match my style better, and have a few boys shirts that work with other outfits. My wife is very unathletic, and I have ADHD, so I'm the hyperactive parent running around with my kid which can be seen as more of a dad like role. That is all to say, I'm not seeking to follow some rules of being the essence of a woman or femme. I'm finding what works for me. And I think most CIS people are doing the same exact thing, trying to figure out how to express this imperfect and murky idea of who they know they are. I've been thinking a lot of a PD I worked in with CIS people on gender stuff, and one of the repeated ideas was how we trans people choose or decide to be trans. And that's not true. We just are. The thing is that gender is a social construct and we borrow the ideas and concepts in the culture we came up with. I am a non-binary femme. I could say I'm a woman, but I don't. I use they instead of she, but get a secret thrill when old men call me ma'am. The thing I'm trying to express with my pronouns and my clothes and my beard concealer and my tops that sometimes make me look like I have cleavage is something that is absolutely true and certain about me, but is often frustrating to express or to show. So, I do my best with the tools I have, to hopefully get people to see who I think I am. Just like everyone is.
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Apr 9, 2022 03:37
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Internaut! posted:Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion. gently caress you, you transphobic piece of poo poo. Koos if you're gonna probe me for being indecorous at least ban this freak for spewing bigotry.
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Apr 9, 2022 03:39
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Internaut! posted:Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion. idgaf if I eat a probe for saying it, this needs to be said in this thread, you should be loving banned for this post. garbage like you has no place here and you should leave and never come back. gently caress you, and gently caress anyone who defends you.
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Apr 9, 2022 03:46
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When I see women who see themselves as tomboys expressing concern about the implication that they might be trans, what that tells me is that they are not trans; they are happy with their gender identity the way it is even if they don’t follow the expected social norms. If gender identity were not real and important to one’s sense of self, then presumably they would not care about the possibility of someone suggesting they may be trans. And ultimately I don’t think they have anything to worry about, because no one anywhere is going around trying to convince cis people that they’re actually trans. Everything works in completely the opposite direction.
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Apr 9, 2022 04:19
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empty whippet box posted:idgaf if I eat a probe for saying it, this needs to be said in this thread, you should be loving banned for this post. garbage like you has no place here and you should leave and never come back. gently caress you, and gently caress anyone who defends you.
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Apr 9, 2022 04:31
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A big flaming stink posted:gently caress you, you transphobic piece of poo poo. Koos if you're gonna probe me for being indecorous at least ban this freak for spewing bigotry. empty whippet box posted:idgaf if I eat a probe for saying it, this needs to be said in this thread, you should be loving banned for this post. garbage like you has no place here and you should leave and never come back. gently caress you, and gently caress anyone who defends you. Going to have to agree with the sentiment here. I understand being a mod is a thankless job and all that, but D&D continues to show a habit of allowing posters to spew vile content as long as it’s wrapped up in “polite” posting etiquette. This thread has proved to be a honeypot but in the way of demonstrating what is truly of value to the D&D community. There is no legitimate reason a person can’t tell a transphobic (aka anti human rights) poster to “gently caress off” or “eat poo poo”. Allowing those posters to turn threads into recreations of calm-hitler-comic.jpg and then probating the ones arguing for human rights looks really lovely. We can, and should, do better. Not by polite words, but by demonstrating the core of our character. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 05:30
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Internaut! posted:Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion. How many chances is this guy going to be given?
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Apr 9, 2022 06:35
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Yeah this is getting ridiculous. Nobody should have to assume someone is arguing in good faith when they're blatantly lying, and nobody should have to stay silent or polite in the face of blatant bigotry.
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Apr 9, 2022 06:40
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So that's a solid "no" on providing any support for your transphobic bullshit? Shocking.
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Apr 9, 2022 07:00
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Koos Group posted:I would not like to foster that, which is why if someone refuses to provide evidence when challenged with counter-evidence, they'll be probed for bad faith. I've also thought about instituting a rule where controversial statements of fact need to be backed up in the same post in threads where it's called for, but that does preclude discussion that comes from refuting common unsupported statements. So there is some trade-off. The rule would also apply to everyone equally, of course. So far the moderation of this thread has allowed several transphobes a bunch of replies and the freedom to harass half a dozen posters before being ejected, while piling probes on the people upset by that. And it's not as if you cant read between the lines on what is being said by "polite" posters because the "mods eat poo poo" thread was tanked immediately, despite being worded very reasonably. You literally didnt even probate the idiot for blatant racism earlier. This is a loving joke, Koos. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 07:07
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Internaut! posted:Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, Veronica Ivy won one basically amateur level Masters championship in an extremely narrow cycling disciple 6 years *after* her transition. She has not won anything else The swimmer won exactly *one* college level championship and didnt do well in other events. She would be utterly hosed at a international competition. quote:But when many ITT won't even go so far as to admit the reason this issue is being talked about is that there's a recurring theme in sport of middling to inadequate men transitioning to women and reaping the rewards, I don't see much point in debate. The above two are literally about the only examples of anyone transitioning and winning jack poo poo. Now I've helped you with those two (and JFC these two are a loving stretch), where's the other seven you were requested to supply? Hell, those two are all I can find who won *anything*, this is so far from the statement MTF would dominate sports it's just not funny. Trans athletes just simply do not dominate sports at all. CAT INTERCEPTOR fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 08:42
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Internaut! posted:Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion. Can we have a single link to any of those please? Thus far you saying "this is happening" is not a source. Oh good, I can also add a hearty "stop talking bollocks" on top of my prior question. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 08:56
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16 year old transfeminine person who is planning to transition asap 'yes I should definitely get loving jacked and send my dysphoria into overdrive in order to win in a sport' it's just not even remotely a thing
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Apr 9, 2022 09:02
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Just popping in to say lol and lmao at the idea that somehow trans women have yuge dense skeletons and muscle mass advantages considering since I've been on HRT I can't even carry a shopping bag anymore. Like come the gently caress on and stop using sport as a way to other a whole section of people as if we were in some kind of human zoo.
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Apr 9, 2022 09:09
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Herstory Begins Now posted:16 year old transfeminine person who is planning to transition asap 'yes I should definitely get loving jacked and send my dysphoria into overdrive in order to win in a sport' yes, women born XX can and do use steroids/androgen-increasing substances and other performance enhancers to cheat. Transwomen who do so will be loving up their hard-earned identity. They still can use other performance enhancers but if they DO use androgenic steroids, they are setting themselves back even if they are evening the playing field with other women who use androgenic steroids.
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Apr 9, 2022 09:36
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Internaut! posted:Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion. Which weightlifter? Do you mean Laurel Hubbard, who in fact didn't win anything and didn't even make it to the finals? You loving transphobe oval office. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 9, 2022 10:07
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I have lost the ability to open tight jars. Still waiting for my massive overwhelming advantage to kick in.Internaut! posted:Biological males have no business competing athletically against biological females in any sport where the indisputable physical advantages of males is a factor, for example sprinting versus curling. Well good thing HRT changes your biology! Sedisp fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 10:52
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Lol someone's getting probated for that  I don't think a few examples would prove anything really in a way that actual statistical analysis would. But it's definan argument that gets busted out by the transphobes.
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Apr 9, 2022 11:01
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mobby_6kl posted:I've seen transphobes cite this article as proof that trans people shouldn't be allowed in sport https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref The running thing doesn't surprise me because hip width is one of the most dimorphic traits between men and women and narrow hips give a mechanical advantage in running, preventing knee injury and increasing efficiency of stride. This is why the top contenders in women's running usually have narrow hips. What's interesting is that because female runner hip width is so far on the low end already in high-level competition, trans athletes might not even have an advantage there. Though they probably would in more casual competition where participants aren't filtered for extreme anatomy. References: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34756802/ (Maturation of the pelvis during male/female puberty influences hip adduction) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34127634/ (Female hips have greater adduction in general) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S002192901930346X (Increased hip adduction contributes to knee injuries) https://boneandspine.com/q-angle/ (On average, women have a greater Q angle than men. Q angle is also associated with femoral anteversion) https://www.sid.ir/en/Journal/ViewPaper.aspx?ID=55141 (Q Angle contributes to knee pain in runners) https://web.archive.org/web/2014082...Review___1_.pdf (Narrower hips increase running energy efficiency) https://runnerclick.com/10-best-female-runners-on-earth/ (Example list of top female runners, all of whom have narrow hips)
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Apr 9, 2022 12:08
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Dog King posted:What's interesting is that because female runner hip width is so far on the low end already in high-level competition, trans athletes might not even have an advantage there. Though they probably would in more casual competition where participants aren't filtered for extreme anatomy. Considering most sports are biased towards people with certain physiological traits (hence the existence of weight classes in many sports) wouldn't that just average out in favor of cis people anyways, because there's so overwhelmingly many more cis people competing in sports than trans people to begin with? Like the average transwoman may be taller than the average cis woman, but if you take 100, 50, hell let's be generous and say 20 cis women, on average there will be some women with distinct physiological advantages over the trans woman anyways.
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Apr 9, 2022 12:23
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Minera posted:Considering most sports are biased towards people with certain physiological traits (hence the existence of weight classes in many sports) wouldn't that just average out in favor of cis people anyways, because there's so overwhelmingly many more cis people competing in sports than trans people to begin with? It might in the case of higher-level competition. But you're looking at one extreme end of a distribution, which means you're no longer drawing from as big of a pool. So in lower level competitions, having the rare trait would be more of an advantage for trans athletes, just like it would be more of an advantage for cis athletes. What we're basically looking at is a Bayesian inference that we don't have enough data to make.
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Apr 9, 2022 12:32
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Jaxyon posted:So far the moderation of this thread has allowed several transphobes a bunch of replies and the freedom to harass half a dozen posters before being ejected, while piling probes on the people upset by that. Jokes are funny, this is more a case of this is a pathetic excuse for moderation that exposes very clearly what the team does and doesn't give a poo poo about. A rereg that's less than a week old can pop in and spout bigotry without so much as a single shred of supporting evidence and it's absolutely fine because they're not one of the bad people the mods of d&d have a childish vendetta against. Best case scenario giving you the benefit of the doubt which is less and less deserved: your whole team supports transphobic bullshit Koos, this is a failure, and it's disgusting. Great job team.
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Apr 9, 2022 12:33
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Internaut! posted:Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion. What the gently caress is wrong with you you awful collection of organic tissue and electrical impulses that vaguely resemble a human being
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Apr 9, 2022 12:54
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Look posters need to have a place where they can say "Yeah trans women are women but like you know.... not REALLLLY women."
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Apr 9, 2022 12:59
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kind of shocked by the complete lack of action tbh id figured there would at least be (grossly insufficient) probes dealt out by now. i dislike trying to generalize an attitude on the staff as a whole but they seem really unconcerned with transphobic rhetoric
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Apr 9, 2022 12:59
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some plague rats posted:How many chances is this guy going to be given? That was the last one before a significant probe. Wanted to give him the opportunity to address all the counterarguments and my own questions or concede his position, and he blew it. Would have done something sooner but he posted right after I left last night.
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Apr 9, 2022 13:04
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Koos Group posted:That was the last one before a significant probe. Wanted to give him the opportunity to address all the counterarguments and my own questions or concede his position, and he blew it. Would have done something sooner but he posted right after I left last night. His first post is just blatant transphobia. lol
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Apr 9, 2022 13:06
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Sedisp posted:His first post is just blatant transphobia. Yes. As a reminder, positions aren't moderated in D&D. Posters are allowed to assert wrong or odious arguments, because correcting them can be educational, and for other practical reasons. You're also not normally required to be rigorous when putting an idea forth initially, only if you refuse to concede it, because this allows for speculation, questions, and readers being able to see sophisticated replies to common talking points that they might not normally. Figuring out whether a poor argument should be allowed because it might lead to better discussion is as much an art as a science though, and I probably gave Internaut too many chances.
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Apr 9, 2022 13:22
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d&d apparently relearning the paradox of tolerance in real time
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Apr 9, 2022 13:25
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Koos Group posted:Yes. As a reminder, positions aren't moderated in D&D. Posters are allowed to assert wrong or odious arguments, because correcting them can be educational, and for other practical reasons. You're also not normally required to be rigorous when putting an idea forth initially, only if you refuse to concede it, because this allows for speculation, questions, and readers being able to see sophisticated replies to common talking points that they might not normally. Transphobia isn't an argument though? Like can you explain that? Does it apply to other non positions like racism or homophobia?
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Apr 9, 2022 13:27
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Sedisp posted:Transphobia isn't an argument though? His first post was making an argument. Arguments can be poorly structured, wrong, emotionally driven, and harmful to society, because an argument is just an assertion meant to persuade. I'm not sure what you mean by non-positions, but bigotry in general is covered by the rule, yes. I'd like the thread to return to the topic at hand now that Internaut has been probed, so please direct further feedback to me via PMs, or wait until the feedback thread later this month.
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Apr 9, 2022 13:35
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koos you realize how unsatisfying of a response this is, right? the guy was spewing open bigotry and you loving give him a single day probe? I'm not even talking about giving him an initial chance, the fact that he immediately doubled down into outright transphobia is reprehensible, and giving him a single day off is horseshit. e: if the policy of moderation is to give people talking vague bigotry a chance to explain themselves, and explicit bigotry only warrants a day off, then I'm sorry but Debate and Discussion tolerates transphobia. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 13:41
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Calling trans women biological males is just transphobia. It's not an argument based on science as biological sex is a grouping of characteristics it's based purely on the desire to call trans women men.
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Apr 9, 2022 13:43
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