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Koos Group posted:Under my policy, the racist poster would be punished harshly for the third post, as it's a blatant demonstration of bad faith. The exchange would also affect his forums reputation and probably lead to him being shunned from the community as a whole. In addition, the second post would demonstrate to readers how they might argue against similar racist ideas in the wild, or at least bolster them against being susceptible to those ideas. That's a general overview of the policy's intent. So people have three posts to say derogatory things about minorities? Clearly untrue sibboleths that have been debunked over and over again. I'm trying to drop all pretenses of sarcasm and humor here just to connect to you as another person. As Timeless Appeal said, are we going to have to deal with basic horse bullshit over and over? I think you need to drop the pretense that these forums and DnD (which I have been posting in since I registered, 2007) is an impersonal void bereft of all context other than the pure rational glint of one's own arguments. Dnd, and every sub-forum of SA, is a community. A community that sets standards. A community that polices itself. A community that seeks to foster an environment of tolerance and fun, with the two being absolutely interlinked. I hate to pull this card, but I'm not trans, but I am a black man. And if I had to be present in a community where people can denigrate me at will based on my race until I made the effort to argue for the worth of my own person, then its no community I want to be a part of. And that is exactly why I am outraged on my behalf of my trans friends at what is happening here. This is a bad road man. Examine what you're trying to do here. What the likely result is. What it says. What it allows. Please, honestly, I'm asking.
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Apr 9, 2022 20:05
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Shageletic posted:So people have three posts to say derogatory things about minorities? Clearly untrue sibboleths that have been debunked over and over again. I'm trying to drop all pretenses of sarcasm and humor here just to connect to you as another person. As Timeless Appeal said, are we going to have to deal with basic horse bullshit over and over? Well, if the response is this strong I don't have a choice but to reexamine the policy, since I'm a believer in listening to community feedback. And discouraging people from posting in D&D because of who they are, or having tiresome arguments that are played out as you say the examples would be, are the opposite of what I want.
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Apr 9, 2022 20:10
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this malicious compliance modding bit is getting unbelievably old
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Apr 9, 2022 21:23
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Koos Group posted:Well, if the response is this strong I don't have a choice but to reexamine the policy, since I'm a believer in listening to community feedback. And discouraging people from posting in D&D because of who they are, or having tiresome arguments that are played out as you say the examples would be, are the opposite of what I want. "If you have 11 people sitting at a table with a nazi, you have 12 nazis" By allowing polite bigots equal footing with their victims you have created an unsafe space for everyone bit the bigots. I have seen facebook shitposting groups handle this better than you. As someone else pointed out, it appears you're learning the paradox of tolerance in real time In this thread.
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Apr 9, 2022 21:30
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moonmazed posted:this malicious compliance modding bit is getting unbelievably old If this is a bit, done on the backs of transgender goons, I am going to raise hell.
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Apr 9, 2022 21:31
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Perhaps the topic should be expanded to "Should transgender be allowed?" I feel like that will really encompass the spirit of debate moderation is looking for.
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Apr 9, 2022 21:55
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Jaxyon posted:"If you have 11 people sitting at a table with a nazi, you have 12 nazis" Holy poo poo, calm down. I'm all for rights and personhood and respecting another human's journey of self acceptance, but the sheer extremes that are being used in regards to what amounts to a bad faith troll shitposter, take a deep breath. gently caress. Jaxyon posted:By allowing polite bigots equal footing with their victims you have created an unsafe space for everyone bit the bigots. Then loving leave. This may come as a shock, but there are OTHER places online where you can post nonsense. You know where the log out button is if you feel this strongly. You know who else left? M00t. And last I heard 4chan is, well, it still is. Jaxyon posted:I have seen facebook shitposting groups handle this better than you. loving go post there then. Jesus. Jaxyon posted:As someone else pointed out, it appears you're learning the paradox of tolerance in real time In this thread. Look, first of all, take a look at my rap sheet, I've been probed more than once for making the same joke that "Trans people are thin skinned reactionaries that try to bitch their way into getting what they want because they felt slighted online" (this is what's called "hyperbole" and is commonly depicted as a farcical strawman), but you don't have to, you know actually behave that way to prove my point on it. That all being said, I know people are lovely, and finding a safe space when it feels like the world is out to mock you while you yourself don't feel comfortable even in your own body is hard. I respect the challenge that you're facing and no one deserves bullshit PM's from assholes, regardless of reason. So I ask, maybe you can loving meet in the middle on this, and recognize that occasional toxic behavior and extreme rhetoric being used when it's going on? Also that trans swimmer lady is like 8th overall. (here's her performance record: https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/) But also she set a lot of records? I don't know what to make of that because on the one hand I don't competitive swim. But on the other hand, hyper competitive types are huge whiners so....sour grapes also? Maybe a good middle ground is just to slap a little T next to any records set as "Trans" so we can still respect the accomplishment but understand that there may have been some influence due to the gender journey the athlete was on. Making Trans athletes their own division seems like a smart solution, but there's, what? 20 trans athletes? I just don't think the talent pool is that deep. Hmmm... (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 9, 2022 21:57
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Trollologist posted:Holy poo poo, calm down. I'm all for rights and personhood and respecting another human's journey of self acceptance, but the sheer extremes that are being used in regards to what amounts to a bad faith troll shitposter, take a deep breath. gently caress. No. Telling people 'if you don't like it, leave' because they want something to be better is lazy and reductive and it's something people say when they know they're on the wrong side of things and simply want the people they're arguing with the shut up and let them have what they want. This type of rhetoric has no place in these types of discussions.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:10
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Trollologist posted:
what a wild thing to bring up as an own.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:15
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Trollologist posted:Holy poo poo, calm down. I'm all for rights and personhood and respecting another human's journey of self acceptance, but the sheer extremes that are being used in regards to what amounts to a bad faith troll shitposter, take a deep breath. gently caress. This is absolutely what D&D needs more of.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:16
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Trollologist posted:That all being said, I know people are lovely, and finding a safe space when it feels like the world is out to mock you while you yourself don't feel comfortable even in your own body is hard. I respect the challenge that you're facing and no one deserves bullshit PM's from assholes, regardless of reason. So I ask, maybe you can loving meet in the middle on this, and recognize that occasional toxic behavior and extreme rhetoric being used when it's going on? Let's say your metaphor of "meet in the middle" is literally the middle line of a football field. Where do you envision the teams are currently standing relative to that line? quote:Maybe a good middle ground is just to slap a little T next to any records set as "Trans" so we can still respect the accomplishment but understand that there may have been some influence due to the gender journey the athlete was on.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:19
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Here's a fun little thought experiment. If one day trans women were absolutely dominating in say basketball is that bad? If it's bad why isn't it bad that tall women dominate basketball? It's really really hard to argue that the first would be a problem if you believe that trans women are women.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:21
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Trollologist posted:Holy poo poo, calm down. I'm all for rights and personhood and respecting another human's journey of self acceptance, but the sheer extremes that are being used in regards to what amounts to a bad faith troll shitposter, take a deep breath. gently caress. Weird how this just keeps happening, isn't it.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:22
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some plague rats posted:Weird how this just keeps happening, isn't it. i'm sure they'll be back to cite some sources any minute, so it's fine
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Apr 9, 2022 22:25
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So….I’m confused. At first, when Koos took over as moderation and it was announced positions would not be moderated, a lot of people were excited. But now, when the possibility of a naive person who read some bullshit headline about transgenders in sports come up, that support is suddenly flipped into something akin to “ban immediately”? I’m honestly confused. Obviously, some people are bringing it up in bad faith. But that’s not always the case. How to differentiate it of course is another question
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Apr 9, 2022 22:26
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The middle ground between "trans people should be allowed to exist" and "trans people should not be allowed to exist" is solely for those who are afraid to take a definitive stance.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:28
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I'm curious exactly what post you're defending as the work of a 'naive person', because I can't say I've seen any of that here.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:28
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Trollologist posted:I just read (skimmed) 9 loving pages of posting about a niche group of people and whether or not they're so good at sports that they should be banned and do you know what no one, on either side of the issue has posted? Results. If these people aren't overwhelmingly amazing at sports, post the results. Link the losses. Alright, i'm actually going to engage you in good faith because despite your name, I don't quite get any outright malicious vibes from you So, regarding the bolded, this is a really fallacious and, well, dumb position. The positive claim being made here is trans femme athletes retain such a significant advantage from having gone through male puberty that permitting their presence in women's competitions destroys the competitive balance. That's a very specific claim, and it's one that needs to be backed up by evidence. My retort to that claim, that there are no large amount of finishes that prove such an advantage, is a negative claim and does not need to be proven. Heck, it's a trivial claim to prove wrong on my part. Post the glut of high finishes! Trollologist posted:Holy poo poo, calm down. I'm all for rights and personhood and respecting another human's journey of self acceptance, but the sheer extremes that are being used in regards to what amounts to a bad faith troll shitposter, take a deep breath. gently caress. We react with such venom to claims like this because it is an attack on our very identity, and these claims are made to advance an agenda that would see us excluded from women sporting events wholesale. To draw an analogy, say someone made the argument that black people are so unfairly advantaged by their common phenotypical traits that they have an unfair advantage over whites, and thus should be cordoned off into their own league. You'd almost certainly be attacked immediately for being a racist, and black people would say all sort of nasty poo poo about you in response. Would you argue that those people are being, as you say "thin skinned reactionaries that try to bitch their way into getting what they want because they felt slighted online?" I think its easy to see thats a farce. We tend to respond with vitriol to claims like these because we view them as an attack on our identity and our "freak out" as one might say, is appropriately proportioned. quote:Also that trans swimmer lady is like 8th overall. (here's her performance record: https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/) But also she set a lot of records? I don't know what to make of that because on the one hand I don't competitive swim. But on the other hand, hyper competitive types are huge whiners so....sour grapes also? This seems again like a strident response that rests on the assumption that trans femme athletes possess an unfair advantage. I assert, this assumption is baseless and so these measures are wholly unwarrented. You could argue for that assumption by posting a glut of trans femme athletes reporting top finishes. These sort of things are specific claims, and they have very weighty consequences if we act as though they are true, so you better be prepared to back this stuff up when you raise them.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:29
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Liquid Communism posted:I'm curious exactly what post you're defending as the work of a 'naive person', because I can't say I've seen any of that here. Oh yea, after that person kept posting, it became obvious. 1000% after the pm poo poo came out. But I’m talking about the hypothetical after their very first post, which seemed stupid but possibly good faith still
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Apr 9, 2022 22:30
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Kalit posted:So….I’m confused. At first, when Koos took over as moderation and it was announced positions would not be moderated, a lot of people were excited. But now, when the possibility of a naive person who read some bullshit headline about transgenders in sports come up, that support is suddenly flipped into something akin to “ban immediately”? It's really not in question. It's obvious to everyone. When someone comes into a thread making obviously false claims which target trans people for exclusion, erasure or whatever else, they have already achieved their goal of causing harm to trans people. They have gotten what they wanted already. They have no intention to provide proof, evidence, or anything to back up what they've said. They've *all* been in bad faith, and not one of them has provided a single thing to back up any of the bigoted things they said. Despite that, it took multiple posts/days to punish all of them and here comes yet another bad faith poster to push anti-trans bullshit. Yes, this is a topic which deserves a hair trigger. Trans people should not have to deal with this. There is not some grand, complex case of how to differentiate a transphobe from a not transphobe. It's obvious as hell.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:31
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Kalit posted:So….I’m confused. At first, when Koos took over as moderation and it was announced positions would not be moderated, a lot of people were excited. But now, when the possibility of a naive person who read some bullshit headline about transgenders in sports come up, that support is suddenly flipped into something akin to “ban immediately”? What I believe is being argued is when someone uses bigoted rhetoric, the immediate reaction should be moderation action with prejudice. I am honestly sympathetic to the general idea that positions should not be moderated, because carving out an exception for bigotry to be wholly disallowable allows someone to claim actually contentious ideas are simple bigotry and should be disallowed on sight. I'm reminded of the holodomor discourse from earlier this month. And that's a valid concern, but we can use our judgment here. some ideas are so obviously bigoted that we don't need to maintain an assumption of good faith on the person voicing that idea. Like let's be real, if someone makes a structured, well cited argument that jewish people should be exterminated, no one with a brain would argue that doesn't deserve a ban on sight. Trans bigotry, in my opinion, falls under the standard of "so obviously bigoted that we don't need to maintain an assumption of good faith."
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Apr 9, 2022 22:36
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Kalit posted:Oh yea, after that person kept posting, it became obvious. 1000% after the pm poo poo came out. But I’m talking about the hypothetical after their very first post, which seemed stupid but possibly good faith still Kind of seems like you just misread it since other people could pick up that it was insincere. Asking people to consider a hypothetical where they were wrong in a situation where they correctly read it seems odd, wouldn't a better question be what did those people see that you didn't?
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Apr 9, 2022 22:37
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Didn't someone gas the 'should mods be forcefed poo poo with a red hot poker?' thread within like 2 posts? or was that another forum and it was merely meant to look like a dnd thread? Because that thread was closed basically instantly without allowing the point to be made or to be refuted carefully and while it's indecorous and obviously rude, I don't think arguing anything as ludicrous as that is even 1/50th as harmful as letting people just openly post transphobic poo poo. It's transparently clear that certain subjects are not permitted to be discussed in dnd and it's pretty absurd which ones those are. It's bizarre as hell to me that someone breathes the word csp*m and gets an instant probation yet when someone wants to just-ask-questions about should trans people be treated the same as everyone else and they get several posts to make the point. I'm a bit sympathetic to this having happened overnight when I'm pretty sure most of the mods were asleep/playing Final Elden Ring XIV, but I also am skeptical that it would've gone significantly differently during the day either. I would strongly suggest at some point looking into how other sites that have lots of political debate have been forced to handle moderating it because we seem perpetually to be re-inventing the wheel of moderating political chat. When you force everyone to respond to all arguments equally, you invariably run off all the people who don't have the energy to engage like that. Guess who those people tend to be.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:38
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Kalit posted:I’m honestly confused. Obviously, some people are bringing it up in bad faith. But that’s not always the case. How to differentiate it of course is another question That's... what moderating is. It's reading posts and making that decision that some people are obviously posting in bad faith and some are not. That's the entire job?
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Apr 9, 2022 22:39
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Like, we're arguing about if you could figure out if the guy who opened a post with "hot take" and then instantly acted like no one could disagree with him without being hysterical was being earnest or not. That's not hard maths.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:42
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Kalit posted:Oh yea, after that person kept posting, it became obvious. 1000% after the pm poo poo came out. But I’m talking about the hypothetical after their very first post, which seemed stupid but possibly good faith still so like, let's take a look at the example in question: quote:Hot take. Trans athletes should not be allowed to take part in gender specific sports. Lia Thomas, for example, is only just transitioning. She is built like a male swimmer. She needs time to go through her transition and then once that's done she should be allowed to compete as much as she wants. But, does anyone possibly see the disparity? Transitioning women cant compete in men's sports, whereas transitioning men compete in women's sport and they overtake and it becomes more important than women's leagues. Takes away from what women are achieving. starting with "hot take" on this topic is never a good sign. I guess if we kind of squint reallllly hard, you could make the argument this poster is just stupid rather than bigoted? There's uh, some weirdness going on with the "Transitioning women cant compete in men's sports, whereas transitioning men compete" part because it seems like he's misgendering the trans athletes based on their aab gender, but honestly it parses so weirdly im willing to let it slide. its borderline, but i wont outright call you an idiot if you say that this doesnt deserve moderation intervention on the spot. Now let's see the next post: Aginor posted:Hate the "cis" tag on peoples gender. Seems very negative. Yeah, at this point it's dead obvious what's going on. Disliking the term "cis" is such a sign of ignorance, and then to describe lia in terms of biological essentialism is just blatantly aping transphobic rhetoric. To top it off, he does the standard PC gone mad! to imply that being anti-transphobia is an "aGeNDa" do you disagree with these assessments of the posts? A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 22:44
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Sedisp posted:Here's a fun little thought experiment. If one day trans women were absolutely dominating in say basketball is that bad? If it's bad why isn't it bad that tall women dominate basketball? Bearing in mind this is entirely hypothetical because trans women are not dominating in sport, it's simply not a thing that's happening, we can look at observable reality: we already "discriminate" between certain groups in sport on the idea that there are very large discrepancies in ability and we generally desire close competition. In practice, we form categories based on age, gender, weight and disability depending on the sport. These would all be unacceptable things to discriminate against in other contexts. We have them because, despite the presence of outliers (younger kids playing on a team for older kids, golfers eligible for senior tours choosing to play a standard tour, women playing on men's teams, people eligible for para-sports competing in general competition, etc.) it's generally accepted that the advantages are usually, but not always, sufficiently overwhelming that the competition would not be reasonable if they were combined. This is, emphatically, not the case with trans women in sport. Yes, trans women have won competitions. No single trans woman has dominated a single sport the way some cis women have, much less are trans women dominating across the board. If reality were completely completely different and trans women were dominating women's sport, then I think we could at least have the debate as to "what is fair and just" in a way that both respects gender identity and allows for "fair" competition, but I think that's a really tricky debate to have without veering into transphobia, obviously. We don't have to have that debate, because it's not based on the world we live in.
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Apr 9, 2022 23:01
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wizzardstaff posted:You are presumably familiar enough with history to know that "separate but equal" is now taught as a bad thing, right? You're right! We need to integrate genders in sports! And weight classes in fighting! Everyone is the same! No more Men & women's divisions, just sports! Want to watch a 5'7" 125 lb woman go up against a 275lb 6'4" man, well, sports are sports! Separate but equal is bad. empty whippet box posted:No. Telling people 'if you don't like it, leave' because they want something to be better is lazy and reductive and it's something people say when they know they're on the wrong side of things and simply want the people they're arguing with the shut up and let them have what they want. This type of rhetoric has no place in these types of discussions. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if the person I'd quoted wasn't actively bringing up examples of better, more friendly spaces with superior moderation. ram dass in hell posted:i'm sure they'll be back to cite some sources any minute, so it's fine I cited sources for everything I said? I'm not sure what you're getting at but unfortunately I'm not made of straw  A big flaming stink posted:This seems again like a strident response that rests on the assumption that trans femme athletes possess an unfair advantage. I assert, this assumption is baseless and so these measures are wholly unwarrented. You could argue for that assumption by posting a glut of trans femme athletes reporting top finishes. These sort of things are specific claims, and they have very weighty consequences if we act as though they are true, so you better be prepared to back this stuff up when you raise them. Look, I'm not going through a transition so I can only speak from what I've gleamed over the years, and not personal experiences. But Transitioning is a process. and every person's journey is deeply personal. As a process, there is a beginning, and a middle. The issue (not with me) isn't so much that Trans athletes possess an unfair advantage overall, but that, at some point in that journey, they do. A good example is oddly the South Park joke character "Heather Swanson"  While this IS AN OBVIOUS STRAWMAN it does belabor the point that, athletes that transition should maybe have some kind of cutoff or exception or language that accounts for where in their journey the athlete is. And this is compounded with the fact that most of these discussions are taking place while kids and teens and young adults are just going through puberty, or just finished, or who knows, and that's an entirely different level of conversation on it's own. The short answer to the OP is YES* (depending on sport, age, level of competition, hormone levels, transition process, etc) The real answer is Korean Starcraft 2 is intergender already and more people should just play that. 
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Apr 9, 2022 23:04
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PT6A posted:Bearing in mind this is entirely hypothetical because trans women are not dominating in sport, it's simply not a thing that's happening, we can look at observable reality: we already "discriminate" between certain groups in sport on the idea that there are very large discrepancies in ability and we generally desire close competition. Pretty much agreed on all points I used the hypothetical because the only argument people seem to use is "well its unfair and could cause trans women to dominate sports" so like in the pretend world where we aren't less than a percentage point of the population where this happens so what? If people say trans women are women and actually mean it the conversation should then naturally shift to how better to separate categories as opposed to "See proof trans women are unfair!" Trollologist posted:
I am really struggling to see the point of this beyond ha ha south park? Like we already have things in place like hrt timelines and identity being earnestly held. So. What are you even talking about? Sedisp fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 23:06
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Trollologist posted:You're right! We need to integrate genders in sports! And weight classes in fighting! Everyone is the same! No more Men & women's divisions, just sports! Want to watch a 5'7" 125 lb woman go up against a 275lb 6'4" man, well, sports are sports! Separate but equal is bad. so you're saying that while it's an obvious strawman, it's true, and you felt it was appropriate to post here? It wasn't. It wasn't appropriate at all. At what point in the journey of transitioning does a trans person have an advantage? That is not true, and is a harmful and bigoted lie. You have just repeated it as if it is true. Can you provide evidence that it is true? Posting a gross picture from south park does not make or prove your point, it's just loving disgusting and you shouldn't do that. KOOS: this is another obvious example of a poster who deserves to be instantly, and severely, punished for posting what they posted. There is no ambiguity here: this is extremely hosed up transphobia. No debate is necessary. We do not need another post from them. This is loving gross.
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Apr 9, 2022 23:13
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Trollologist is a gimmick account to show off how much you can get away with.
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Apr 9, 2022 23:13
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Trollologist posted:Look, first of all, take a look at my rap sheet, I've been probed more than once for making the same joke that "Trans people are thin skinned reactionaries that try to bitch their way into getting what they want because they felt slighted online" (this is what's called "hyperbole" and is commonly depicted as a farcical strawman), but you don't have to, you know actually behave that way to prove my point on it. Trollologist posted:uuuuuhhhhhh...kind...of? Trollologist posted:Everyone that talks poo poo about trans people on Twitter gets cancelled. If student loans went on Twitter and started acting all TERFY, they'd get cancelled. Trollologist posted:HI!
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Apr 9, 2022 23:17
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A big flaming stink posted:so like, let's take a look at the example in question: TBH, in a vacuum, I could read those as some opinion by a lovely person who I grew up with in rural MN that could be swayed away from their position. Maybe I'm naive, but 
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Apr 9, 2022 23:18
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Kalit posted:TBH, in a vacuum, I could read those as some opinion by a lovely person who I grew up with in rural MN that could be swayed away from their position. Maybe I'm naive, but You seem far more concerned with the feelings and opinions of some hypothetical dipshit you grew up with than those of the people you're talking to right here and now who are affected by this poo poo so I don't know if "naive" is the word I would use.
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Apr 9, 2022 23:22
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some plague rats posted:You seem far more concerned with the feelings and opinions of some hypothetical dipshit you grew up with than those of the people you're talking to right here and now who are affected by this poo poo so I don't know if "naive" is the word I would use. I'm sorry I'm concerned with changing people's views on a forum about Debate & Discussion. Kalit fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 23:24
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empty whippet box posted:At what point in the journey of transitioning does a trans person have an advantage? That is not true, and is a harmful and bigoted lie. You have just repeated it as if it is true. Can you provide evidence that it is true? Posting a gross picture from south park does not make or prove your point, it's just loving disgusting and you shouldn't do that. Right at the beginning I'd wager, before hormone therapy or and surgery or any medical involvement (I really hope that's the right term, I'm not trying to disparage anyone). You know, RIIIIIIGHT when the journey starts. When no actions other than superficial have been take (dress, demeanor, etc). And maybe A bit after. This exact point is the purpose of the thread. There has to be some give on this as well. *uses a picture cribbed from indiewire that itself was citing a show on national television and explains how it is a straman and joke while taking time to recognize the hardships and challenges that trans people and athletes face* empty whippet box posted:deserves to be instantly, and severely, punished for posting what they posted. There is no ambiguity here: this is extremely hosed up transphobia. No debate is necessary. Rob Filter posted:Well since you asked, lets take a look at your rap sheet! Hey! This thread is about sports!
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Apr 9, 2022 23:25
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Kalit posted:I'm sorry I'm concerned with changing people's opinions on a forum about Debate & Discussion. If that's true why are you responding to me but not trollologist
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Apr 9, 2022 23:27
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some plague rats posted:If that's true why are you responding to me but not trollologist Because I'm a cool guy and everyone likes me 
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Apr 9, 2022 23:28
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Trollologist posted:Because I'm a cool guy and everyone likes me Are you mixing up real life with an animated cartoon series again
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Apr 9, 2022 23:34
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Kalit posted:I'm sorry I'm concerned with changing people's views on a forum about Debate & Discussion. You want to have a serious conversation with the dude using South Park as his reference for his argument.
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Apr 9, 2022 23:40
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