|
now hold on folks let's hear this hitler guy out maybe we can talk him out of some of this genocide okay
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2022 23:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 16:30 |
|
|
Kalit posted:So….I’m confused. At first, when Koos took over as moderation and it was announced positions would not be moderated, a lot of people were excited. But now, when the possibility of a naive person who read some bullshit headline about transgenders in sports come up, that support is suddenly flipped into something akin to “ban immediately”? Quick correction, don’t refer to a person as “a transgender”. It’s just “a trans person”, or “_____ is trans”.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2022 23:42
|
|
|
Probably Magic posted:You want to have a serious conversation with the dude using South Park as his reference for his argument. No, he wants other people to have a serious conversation with the dude using South Park as his reference for his argument It's extremely grating to hear the sadsack "oh but we need to change people's opinions with debate!!" argument get trotted out by people whose only posts in the thread are about how important it is to do that while demonstrating no intention of trying to do the work themselves, because what it always comes across as is some guy turning up and saying "argue for your right to exist, trans people, I'll be over there talking about something that matters". It's just demoralizing, honestly
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2022 23:44
|
|
|
Trollologist posted:*uses a picture cribbed from indiewire that itself was citing a show on national television and explains how it is a straman and joke while taking time to recognize the hardships and challenges that trans people and athletes face* quote:Right at the beginning I'd wager, before hormone therapy or and surgery or any medical involvement (I really hope that's the right term, I'm not trying to disparage anyone). You know, RIIIIIIGHT when the journey starts. When no actions other than superficial have been take (dress, demeanor, etc). And maybe A bit after. This exact point is the purpose of the thread. There has to be some give on this as well.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2022 23:47
|
|
|
wizzardstaff posted:See, you say you’re taking time to recognize the hardships we face but… Trollologist posted:Look, I'm not going through a transition so I can only speak from what I've gleamed over the years, and not personal experiences. But Transitioning is a process. and every person's journey is deeply personal. Maybe loving you can do that? It's not my job to educate you about those levels and timelines.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2022 23:53
|
|
|
Kalit posted:I'm sorry I'm concerned with changing people's views on a forum about Debate & Discussion. I don’t even think this thread is the problem. There’s been some lovely trolls taken to task, but this thread has also been a safe place for people like me who had trans questions that made me leery that were well answered so I could ignore my prior gut feelings about things, and be a better ally. This thread has value. Now the climate change thread on the other hand is a trash fire.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2022 23:54
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Quick correction, don’t refer to a person as “a transgender”. It’s just “a trans person”, or “_____ is trans”. Thank you for the correction, I will be more conscious of this in the future.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2022 23:57
|
|
|
No prob.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:00
|
|
|
Wow. This thread has gone places.quote:When someone comes into a thread making obviously false claims which target trans people for exclusion, erasure or whatever else, they have already achieved their goal of causing harm to trans people. They have gotten what they wanted already. They have no intention to provide proof, evidence, or anything to back up what they've said. They've *all* been in bad faith, and not one of them has provided a single thing to back up any of the bigoted things they said Before I back away from this trainwreck of a thread just gonna agree with this. A lot of the current bullshit about trans people in sports is just blatant asshat culture war by people not interested in an honest debate. ** Not a mod here so take this as a personal opinion ** The issues of trans competitors in sports is not an easy topic esp to a group that is already targeted by some really lovely people - there are legitimate issues and concerns that could be discussed except they keep getting hijacked and used as bludgeons to attack trans people in general. If you have genuine questions then please respect that group who has been under a culture war attack. If you are here to troll just gently caress off Sports administrators are trying to come up with answers which are clearly not going to make every resonable person happy and the temperature around this discussion caused by the bullshit culture war doesn't really help for a good debate.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:07
|
|
|
wizzardstaff posted:So if you’re genuinely interested in taking the time to address this issue with the good faith it deserves, how about you look those up, post them here, and tell us why you think they’re inadequate? (In other words, what additional “give” are you looking for?) That there is a point in every MTF Transition where they're just a boy/man saying "I'm a woman". It's the first step. That poo poo needs to be said by the trans community. it's the meeting in the middle. Like that it's loving not okay to dredge up a guy's post history and call them a bigot and demand swift and severe consequences with "no debate necessary" for posting a picture from a national TV show. Meet in the middle. That a 19 year old that just recently started the MTF journey maybe shouldn't compete in women's sports. Or maybe that if they do, they'll have an advantage in doing so. Middle. That more people should play Professional Starcraft 2 because it's already intergender and thus doesn't subject itself to any of this nonsense. It's not a conversation or debate if the other side of "hey maybe MTF athletes carry a competitive advantage at some point in their journey and there does exist bad faith actors that would use this to unfairly compete." is "you're a hateful bigot, gently caress you get banned"
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:18
|
|
|
you're a hateful bigot. gently caress you, get banned
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:20
|
|
|
Trollologist posted:That there is a point in every MTF Transition where they're just a boy/man saying "I'm a woman". It's the first step. That poo poo needs to be said by the trans community. it's the meeting in the middle. Nobody is going to say this in the trans community because it's simply incorrect and wrong.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:21
|
|
|
Mischievous Mink posted:Nobody is going to say this in the trans community because it's simply incorrect and wrong. Not to people outside the trans community. And that's sort of the point. While yes for a Trans person, they've lived their entire lives as themselves and are entitled to their feelings and experiences. Everyone that might not know them well or may have just met them will see them as the gender they're most presenting as, and the statement that that information is no longer correct will be met with...a little surprise or at least some confusion. They way you treat others is the way you want people to treat you. And to get understanding and compassion, you have to give some. (USER WAS PERMABANNED FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:31
|
|
|
Trollologist posted:That there is a point in every MTF Transition where they're just a boy/man saying "I'm a woman". It's the first step. That poo poo needs to be said by the trans community. it's the meeting in the middle. It is okay because it's directly relevant. You have a history of being bigoted against trans people and here you are again being bigoted against trans people. You know this is nonsense, and that there are zero examples of what you're talking about. You were just using it as an excuse to post that horrible bullshit from south park. You're a hateful bigot. gently caress you. Get Banned.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:32
|
|
|
Mischievous Mink posted:Nobody is going to say this in the trans community because it's simply incorrect and wrong. Failing to properly debate or discuss. If you don't think the trans community should meet loudmouth cis guys who know absolutely nothing in the middle, explain to them why. User loses posting privileges for 12 hours.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:33
|
|
|
Trollologist posted:Not to people outside the trans community. And that's sort of the point. While yes for a Trans person, they've lived their entire lives as themselves and are entitled to their feelings and experiences. Everyone that might not know them well or may have just met them will see them as the gender they're most presenting as, and the statement that that information is no longer correct will be met with...a little surprise or at least some confusion. When i was a kid and i was wondering if a cheese grater or fire would be the best at making my facial hair stop growing what part of the transition journey was I at? Sedisp fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:41
|
|
|
Trollologist posted:That there is a point in every MTF Transition where they're just a boy/man saying "I'm a woman". It's the first step. That poo poo needs to be said by the trans community. it's the meeting in the middle. Not only is this rear end in a top hat a bigot and there’s been a big failure in policy if the mods let them continue posting, they’re also weirdly obsessed with competitive StarCraft 2 and keep bringing it up and I think that almost skeeves me out the most.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:43
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Not only is this rear end in a top hat a bigot and there’s been a big failure in policy if the mods let them continue posting, they’re also weirdly obsessed with competitive StarCraft 2 and keep bringing it up and I think that almost skeeves me out the most. I think they might actually just be someone trying really hard to troll and just sucking at it. Not that they couldn't be a bigot too, of course.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:45
|
|
|
wow a one day probe that'll learn him
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:49
|
|
|
Trollologist posted:They way you treat others is the way you want people to treat you. And to get understanding and compassion, you have to give some. Addressed to a group that is under constant attack from some truly lovely people, that is a genuinely hosed in the head thing to say.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:49
|
|
|
moonmazed posted:wow a one day probe that'll learn him Frankly I think it's weird he's allowed to "decide to return to the thread", and in fact, I feel like he shouldn't be allowed to decide that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:51
|
|
|
moonmazed posted:wow a one day probe that'll learn him Thats the most a mod can hand out without admin approval. I'll just say and leave it at that further action discussion is takign place.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 00:52
|
|
|
Trans women are women so they should be allowed to compete in women's sports. What a truly astounding conclusion Some people have a biological advantage in sport and that's just the way it fuckin goes. You don't see anyone pushing to ban Serena Williams from playing tennis just because she can hit a tennis ball far harder than the other women do you? Maybe you do, who fuckin knows
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:03
|
|
|
This thread never improved. It's sad to see. Know I haven't got much say as a newbie but thought things would be different under ownership change. Too many getting away with being bigotted ands transphobic. E: You look at koos' rap sheet and you wonder how this dude is a mod. Christ! No wonder bigotry is allowed.... krooslove fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:06
|
|
|
Rename this thread the transphobe honey pot thread
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:22
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Rename this thread the transphobe honey pot thread Might be a good way to clean house...
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:23
|
|
|
Trollologist posted:That a 19 year old that just recently started the MTF journey maybe shouldn't compete in women's sports. Or maybe that if they do, they'll have an advantage in doing so. Middle. I'm 99% certain this is trolling, because it's posted by a person named "Trollologist" who just posted a lot of other inflammatory stuff in this thread, but on the off-chance that a lurker is actually thinking about this, I'll take a shot at replying to it. There's a important distinction between "competitive" sports - playing professionally, playing for money, playing for scholarships - and casual sports. To the best of my knowledge, ALL competitive sports either completely exclude trans women, or have strict requirements that trans women must adhere to before they can compete. I posted the Olympic guidelines for trans women athletes earlier (they're on Wikipedia). Other competitive/professional sports leagues have various requirements about testosterone levels or time spent living as a woman, stuff like that. No trans girl/woman can start playing in women's sports *competitively* on their first day of taking female hormones. It just isn't allowed when money is at stake. If anyone can find an exception to this then I guess post your evidence, but in such an unlikely case, know that you're posting an extreme outlier situation. Casual sports are another matter. A bowling league with friends, physical education class, an after-school sports club - there's really no need to care about testosterone levels in most situations when money isn't at stake. There's no reason why non-contact casual sports shouldn't be inclusive. Even if the included trans people have just recently started to take hormones. Casual sports are supposed to be about fun, fitness, friendship, and good sportsmanship, and there's already a naturally huge variance in the physical ability of ordinary cisgender casual sports players. The one exception that comes to my mind is contact casual sports like rugby or wrestling - there's no money involved, but given the risk of injury, perhaps some kind of strength test class or weight class guidelines might be useful. Such guidelines would also reduce risk of injury between cis women if one cis woman happens to be much physically stronger than another. Strength/weight class guidelines could prove particularly useful for casual school contact sports - parents do worry about their kids getting injured, and sometimes really terrible accidents do happen. Victar fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:26
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Rename this thread the transphobe honey pot thread I mean realistically the current title always meant this, lol. It's not a debate with two reasonable sides, it's an oppressed group trying to fuckin' live and harassment from freaks who are obsessed with other people's genitals and/or who thrive on the attention and endorphins they get from taking their own personal issues out on a class of people a lot of people in society feel they have a green light to verbally bully, physically assault, and so on. There's no middle ground and there's no way to convince me that the transphobes have a point.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:27
|
|
|
krooslove posted:This thread never improved. This thread is doing a good job of demonstrating the central thesis that emerged on the first page: essentially all criticism of transgender athletes in sport is motivated by hate/politics rather than anything to do with equity or fairness in sport. Shame mods aren't faster on the draw, but is anyone surprised the bigots are throwing themselves at this thread? abigserve posted:Trans women are women so they should be allowed to compete in women's sports. What a truly astounding conclusion I really dislike the comparison of transgender athletes to natural variation in cis athletes because I think it thoroughly misses the point in every way, and it implies that MtF athletes statistically have a biological advantage, which they don't.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:29
|
|
|
Trollologist posted:Maybe loving you can do that? It's not my job to educate you about those levels and timelines. I like how the mere insinuation that you were operating in bad faith was enough to make you respond not once but twice, first with a pathetic "no u" and then with an effortpost regurgitating all the lovely takes that no one was buying already. Master trollologist indeed, you really got it down to an art form.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:29
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:This thread is doing a good job of demonstrating the central thesis that emerged on the first page: essentially all criticism of transgender athletes in sport is motivated by hate/politics rather than anything to do with equity or fairness in sport. Shame mods aren't faster on the draw, but is anyone surprised the bigots are throwing themselves at this thread? Fear. Its disgusting. Its a shame that people refuse to open their minds
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:33
|
|
|
Victar posted:To the best of my knowledge, ALL competitive sports either completely exclude trans women, or have strict requirements that trans women must adhere to before they can compete. I posted the Olympic guidelines for trans women athletes earlier (they're on Wikipedia). Other competitive/professional sports leagues have various requirements about testosterone levels or time spent living as a woman, stuff like that. These are also politically motivated guidelines and have largely emerged from the total disaster shitshow that was the Caster Semenya case. For the most part, it likely won't even matter at the highest level. However, most trans athletes at that level are willing to go through the nonsense and meet whatever "standards" get cooked up, just to shut people up about it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:34
|
|
|
The fundamental problem is that sport relies on socially constructed divisions and constraints with precise meanings (the rules and regulations) to create interesting and competitive tranches of people but gender was never well-defined. Shot clocks, field dimensions, scoring systems, illegal holds, banned or required uniforms, age groups, weight classes, and gender divisions are all examples of rules created to enable competitive displays of physical excellence. Every sport has different sets of rules and those rules are under constant renegotiation. None of this is natural (whatever that means). Once the rules are in place, people compete and—in very serious circumstances—push to the edges of the rules to eek out every advantage. If you have weight classes, highly competitive athletes do everything they can to be the highest weight (of muscle) they can and then shed as much water weight as possible to just slip just under the limit on the weigh-in day. If you have age classes, people born just before the cut off have an advantage over people born just after the cut off. As it turns out, one of the tranches that has been used (sex/gender) is extremely poorly constructed and imprecise because most people have been under the mistaken impression that gender is a natural and clearly divisible binary. It’s not. Faced with this discovery, most officiating organizations have been reluctant to give up the division and so have been forced to hack together increasingly obviously arbitrary cut off points. Fun fact! There is a healthy dose of racism involved in these controversies too. See the case of Caster Semenya. https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/5/3/18526723/caster-semenya-800-gender-race-intersex-athletes Highly competitive sport is about exceptional physical specimens with exceptional training, discipline, and gear. Some factors of Michael Phelps‘ success are that he has unusual arm length and he was allowed to wear the now banned LZR Racer swimsuit. Semenya was forced to take testosterone suppressants which is kind of like arguing that Phelps should have had to shorten his arms. Assuming that we actually understand how much testosterone contributes to performance. And that’s before getting to questions about trans athletes. The entire thing is a mess and bigots have discovered that they can make political gains by parading trans kids around as freaks and cheaters. It’s gross and dumb and I wish people who saw themselves as intelligent would do a little more to raise their sophistication about these questions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:35
|
|
|
This thread has been a real good case study on how it's actually pretty dang easy to see the difference between someone who is ~just asking questions~ as a way to throw out some casual bigotry and someone who genuinely is asking questions because they don't know/aren't clear on something.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:37
|
|
|
Trollologist posted:That there is a point in every MTF Transition where they're just a boy/man saying "I'm a woman". It's the first step. That poo poo needs to be said by the trans community. it's the meeting in the middle. Kalit posted:So….I’m confused. At first, when Koos took over as moderation and it was announced positions would not be moderated, a lot of people were excited. But now, when the possibility of a naive person who read some bullshit headline about transgenders in sports come up, that support is suddenly flipped into something akin to “ban immediately”? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:39
|
|
|
Kalit posted:So….I’m confused. At first, when Koos took over as moderation and it was announced positions would not be moderated, a lot of people were excited. But now, when the possibility of a naive person who read some bullshit headline about transgenders in sports come up, that support is suddenly flipped into something akin to “ban immediately”? Well first of all, the announcement was never that no position, ever, would be moderated. That appears to just be something you made up or imagined. The announcement was this quote:D&D moderation is going to be moving away from moderating positions, and getting more stringent on moderating the quality of arguments. Now clearly we've had three bigoted dipshits pile in to harass people seemingly without being worried about scrutiny so it's not unreasonable for people to have the opinion that whatever scrutiny was applied has failed at deterring this kind of thing. I expect that if I started a "should black athletes be allowed to compete" thread, racists would not have been allowed to troll for that long. Assuming the thread wasn't shut down immediately which it probably would be (I hope!) cuz it'd be a real bad look for the community. Second of all people did point out at the time that if you truly don't moderate bigoted positions, you get bored Nazi trolls who love to endlessly litigate say, whether the Holocaust happened, people who get tired of reading that poo poo stop coming around, and the community goes to hell. So I'm not sure what specific people you were talking about that were "excited" that they thought bigoted arguments would be allowed and are now mad about it, if there were any people in the first group they probably are not the same people objecting now. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 01:59
|
|
|
ram dass in hell posted:I mean realistically the current title always meant this, lol. It's not a debate with two reasonable sides, it's an oppressed group trying to fuckin' live and harassment from freaks who are obsessed with other people's genitals and/or who thrive on the attention and endorphins they get from taking their own personal issues out on a class of people a lot of people in society feel they have a green light to verbally bully, physically assault, and so on. There's no middle ground and there's no way to convince me that the transphobes have a point. This is my view as well. I do not feel like there's a reasonable way to 'debate' here, as there's only one real acceptable answer: Let trans people be who they are, and let them play as who they are.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:04
|
|
|
Srice posted:This thread has been a real good case study on how it's actually pretty dang easy to see the difference between someone who is ~just asking questions~ as a way to throw out some casual bigotry and someone who genuinely is asking questions because they don't know/aren't clear on something. Yeah that too, it was pretty obvious who was here to learn and who was here to troll. LionArcher had some genuine questions and wanted to learn and informative discussion came out of it and nobody tried to cancel them, so it seems like we don't have to worry about good discussions getting shut down.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:04
|
|
|
I'm going to ask an adjacent question. Should there be a separate scale to score trans servicemembers when they take their annual physical fitness tests? Each branch of the US military has a physical fitness test its members are required to pass each year. The scores on these tests are weighted according to age and gender so that a middle aged man doesn't have to put up the same numbers as a 20 year old man for the same amount of points, and a woman of a particular age doesn't have to put up the same raw numbers as the man of the same age for the same amount of points. The points scored on the test are used, among other things, to decide who will be promoted and who will be promoted first. It's not the only part of the promotion process, but it is a part of it. The US Air Force's physical fitness test consists of 2 minutes of push-ups, 2 minutes of sit-ups, and a 1.5 mile run. A US Air Force study of transitioning servicemembers showed that post transition, the servicemembers performed more or less equally with their new cohort, with the exceptions that MTF Airmen did 12% better on the run than cis-gendered women, while FTM Airmen scored slightly better on sit-ups than their counterparts. So, given the difference in performance for MTF Airmen, should they have their own run standards to be scored against to make things equal to their cis-counterparts? Here is the USAF study: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref I apologize if I made any errors in terminology, and I also recognize the that various branches of the DoD's approach to physical fitness is suspect at best, but this is the system as it stand right now.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 16:30 |
|
|
Kalit posted:TBH, in a vacuum, I could read those as some opinion by a lovely person who I grew up with in rural MN that could be swayed away from their position. Maybe I'm naive, but the difference is that in real life, and especially with people you have grown up with (even acquaintances) there exists a strong rapport that allows for nuance and discernment of what a person, even someone you might identify as a "shithead", actually means with their statements, are they motivated by ignorance or malice, how deeply do they hold their current opinion, etc etc etc there is absolutely nothing like this rapport that exists online. the process you are describing is completely and utterly impossible in online discussion spaces. your impulse towards empathy for even a person speaking hatefully is truly a laudable one. heck, it can often lead to weal! but, it is an impulse will do nothing but lead you to woe online. cat botherer posted:Fuuuck offff. 24 hr probe probe is bitchmade poo poo. hey, easy. i don't believe we're quite at the level where this sort of hostility is warranted. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Apr 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2022 02:10
|
|
