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Koos Group posted:Punching power seems as though it would be impossible to measure, since it would be up to the athletes to demonstrate it and they would of course pull their punches to qualify for a lower class. Oh yeah, I'm not proposing it as a good solution or anything. Just an example of what more informed discussion would be, that there is a set of criteria that you want to group up into a certain range to make sure it's a "fair fight" as much as you can. No one will want to fight in a sport where the divisions are wide open. I'm not sure who CommieGIR is even arguing for with combining genders in combat sports. I don't think there are a lot of trans women fighters looking to compete against men or vice-versa. Really seems like they're looking to compete with their gender. Edit: Like fluff said, fighters also work weight now to get an advantage. There is no perfect solution here because true fairness is going to be impossible.
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Apr 10, 2022 18:22
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Trans women are women even if they haven't taken hormones or had surgery or whatever else. They might not have done it yet or might not want to at all. Same for any gender or lack thereof.
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Apr 10, 2022 18:23
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Bear Enthusiast posted:Trans women are women even if they haven't taken hormones or had surgery or whatever else. They might not have done it yet or might not want to at all. You are correct but I think the discussion around athletics is based around people who have or are in the process of transitioning. TERFs and other transphobes use trans people who have not transistioned as a strawman to argue against inclusiveness, even though as far as I know, it has never come up.
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Apr 10, 2022 18:26
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The only combat sport that I know of that does not have weight Divisions is sumo. Unfortunately they also do not recognize women's sumo as legit, which is its own can of sexist worms.
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Apr 10, 2022 18:28
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UCS Hellmaker posted:A trans or LGBT thread like fritz said that's focused on the absolute horrid poo poo that the gop is pushing through to attack, and basically destroy lives for LGBT and specifically trans people would be beneficial, there's so much poo poo that is happening that is drowned out in the current trashheap of US current events. Just the absolute child abuse of the Texas CPS, and the other state that just made it a criminal felony to give trans kids puberty blockers alone is worth having a thread for to provide updates and things that need to be shared. Saying that this is up for debate is ignoring that this is meant to be a subforum that provides information and more indepth discussion on things, and DnD has not always been about debating things, many times its for providing actual facts and research much like this thread started out as. For real, a thread tracking and going in depth into institutional efforts to legalize transphobia is actually a really good idea. Especially if people can do some digging into who is coming up with and especially pushing this latest round of legislation across the country. In fact, that'd be useful to the country as a whole, as it's often hate groups and white supremacists masquerading as evangelicals that have gotten caught doing this again. Never forget that time a bunch of right wing christians (I think it was the Family Research Council, though i'd have to go back and check to make sure that's the right generic extremist christian group. They all have excessively mild sounding names to help shunt suspicion off of them until after they've had a shot at killing people or oppressing them failing that.) tried to contact an African country to persuade them to make being gay punishable by death by stoning. That's one of the less insane and insanely evil plots these assholes have done Long story short and i'm bolding this in the hopes of getting the attention of someone who knows the right people to do this: Passing any data about the responsible groups along to the various news publications and/or journalists out there that get wide spread attention and are interested in this topic would be vastly useful in shining a light back on these genocidal* motherfuckers so that people know to push back against not just the legislation itself, but the true source of it. Aside from that, having a thread on here to track the actions of transphobes in their attempts to create an institutional system of oppression and genocide* would be useful to educate people on just how hosed our tolerance of these bigots is, be they religious or secular in nature. Like, it's hard for me to put into words how vile the folks behind the anti LGBTQ stuff are. They're basically murderous supremacists, and even a brief in depth look into them makes it blatantly clear what they're ultimately after. * Since Texas is up to that as well at the moment by literally trying to steal trans children to put them in more "acceptable" homes where they can be re-educated. Which obviously never works, but to be fair that is probably the point since that increases the likelihood they'll kill themselves. Also, as Texas has demonstrated, the stuff with banning trans teenagers from sports is just the start of an attempt to legitimize denying trans care overall. Aside from that, it's also genocide/an attempt at mass murder since the bans and attempted bans on trans care for teenagers were only pushed forwards by the Republicans once it became known that those who don't receive treatment before puberty kicks in and alters the body have like a 50% chance of attempting suicide in the future. There's like a 99% chance one of the usual PAC's/hate groups/"religious freedom" types is behind the latest bout of legislation against trans people showing up in red states. Which was willingly assisted by the Republicans in the hopes of pushing people out to the polls through --- again --- literally an attempt to do mass murder by proxy. But I haven't seen anyone figure out which particular hate group is behind the newest nation-wide legislative assault on trans lives insofar as journalists go. Archonex fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 18:32
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Fluffdaddy posted:The only combat sport that I know of that does not have weight Divisions is sumo. Unfortunately they also do not recognize women's sumo as legit, which is its own can of sexist worms. I suppose this it makes more sense in Sumo as you're using your body weight to push or just throwing people down so there's really not much danger there unlike other combat sports where people might be repeatedly punched or elbowed in the head, so if someone is severely outmatched/ outweighed they'll just get bodied out of the ring and embarrassed.
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Apr 10, 2022 18:38
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Just Chamber posted:I suppose this it makes more sense in Sumo as you're using your body weight to push or just throwing people down so there's really not much danger there unlike other combat sports where people might be repeatedly punched or elbowed in the head, so if someone is severely outmatched/ outweighed they'll just get bodied out of the ring and embarrassed. Closed fist and kicks above the knees are strictly forbidden. There are a couple of "little" wrestlers under 250lbs in the upper Divisions. They usually specialize in throws and leg trips.
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Apr 10, 2022 18:41
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And as an addendum to my post up above, and just to hammer home how dangerous these groups are and why it would be useful to have a thread to track their activities, here's some quotes from a group directly linked to Republican policy attempts in targeting minorities. Especially LGBT minorities. Keep in mind when reading these quotes that these are very wealthy people attached to the evangelical/right wing christian movement who have direct financial and interpersonal access to the Republican party. In addition to that, they are courted by the Republican party itself as part of their efforts to keep certain extremists on board with voting them in. quote:“[Homosexuality] … embodies a deep-seated hatred against true religion.” quote:“Gaining access to children has been a long-term goal of the homosexual movement.” quote:"One of the primary goals of the homosexual rights movement is to abolish all age of consent laws and to eventually recognize pedophiles as the 'prophets' of a new sexual order." quote:"A little-reported fact is that homosexual and lesbian relationships are far more violent than are traditional married households." quote:“The videos are titled 'It Gets Better.' They are aimed at persuading kids that although they'll face struggles and perhaps bullying for 'coming out' as homosexual (or transgendered or some other perversion), life will get better. …It's disgusting. And it's part of a concerted effort to persuade kids that homosexuality is okay and actually to recruit them into that lifestyle." quote:“I know they’ll mock at that idea, but look, if you are a male — genetically you are a male, biologically you’re a male — and you say, ‘Well, I’m not a male. I’m a female.’ I mean, what’s to keep you from saying that you’re an animal?” quote:“For years, LGBT activists wanted to keep the goal of luring children into sexual confusion under wraps. Now that they’ve hoodwinked a lot of the country on their agenda, these extremists no longer have to hide. In fact, they are increasingly bold–even boastful–about their real intentions of recruiting kids.” Using autism as a shield to pursue bigotry in one of the more vile displays of two faced bigotry i've seen in recent years: quote:“By ignoring underlying conditions, the demands of transgender supremacy ignore our unique kids, especially those with autism and mental health diagnoses. They deflect much-needed resources away from the pandemic of autism.” And my personal favorite, given the insane irony of calling a civil rights movement dedicated to equality and justice a cult when the people saying this are literally a part of a murderous regressive cult themselves: quote:“Our country understands that Scientology is a cult. But we still don’t seem to understand how much the transgender movement mirrors cults like Scientology.” It goes on and on, but i'll stop here to avoid upsetting someone. Just click the link if you want a not so brief summarization of one of the bigger groups. Spoilers though: It's all hateful rhetoric centered around justifying getting to the point where they can murder as many minorities as possible, with an attempt made to go after more accepted minorities according to skin color and ethnicity if they can get make the idea of bigotry acceptable to society at large. Or to put it in another more TL;DR way: It's basically a supremacist Christian movement that is obviously extremist that the likes of trump and company have been directly taking notes from. https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/family-research-council Also, if those last quotes didn't spell it out, since gay marriage was legalized these groups have pivoted to targeting trans people. They see them as the next target due to their low visible population and ease of which it is to make an emotional argument devoid of science (which definitively says they are wrong and lying to people) to demonize them, especially if they don't pass due to their age when they started transitioning due to puberty loving up their body. Something that is especially an issue for those who are MtF. Which is again, yet another reason why people like this want to ban trans care for teens. Archonex fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 18:43
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Another wild thing about the current anti trans movement in the United States is that it is not only designed to oppress Transfolks, but it is also being used as a back door to go after all LGBTQ people. It's ugly on so many levels.
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Apr 10, 2022 18:46
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Fluffdaddy posted:Another wild thing about the current anti trans movement in the United States is that it is not only designed to oppress Transfolks, but it is also being used as a back door to go after all LGBTQ people. It's ugly on so many levels. It's not just LGBTQ people they want to go after too. I remember years ago an internal memo got leaked from one of the big groups working to push the LGBTQ bigotry that revealed that it's basically a long con by all of these "religious" (and I use that word loosely, since their beliefs have nothing to do with the bible and everything to do with their own biases) groups to go after every minority in the country. Just vaguely recalling the details of it: The intent is that if they are successful at genociding LGBTQ people out of existence they'll eventually go back to pushing anti-miscegenation (literally the hot topic for evangelicals in the 80's/even a few groups in the 90's before they decided to pivot to abortion being the thing their leaders and donors pretended to be so angry about. Not that it seems like they've stopped believing this, but they're just less loud about it now.) laws against different ethnicities marrying. And by different ethnicities I mean white people marrying someone who isn't specifically white according to whichever in groups are accepted at any given time. Then if that's successful they want to look at removing voting rights for women after they've rolled back the civil rights movement for African Americans, etc, etc. Given that, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the fight against abortion is just another branch of the same assault on liberty, equality, and justice for Americans these assholes have pursued for decades. Every successful attempt at oppressing the people of America by these groups is meant to chain into the next attempt to go after a new minority and deepen the oppression and murder of those already under attack. They want to do this through using the previous act of bigotry as a springboard to demonize and then attack a new minority by rolling back their rights until white, straight, and male people are basically the only folks left that have any rights or safety from the worst parts of society or life in general. Of course that's why groups like the FRC and other extremist christian organizations put so much effort into staying hiding in the dark. Since despite their claims about their cause being holy, just, morally upright, family oriented, etc, etc, they tend to wither under public scorn when dragged kicking and screaming out into the light where everyone can see them. Since very few politicians historically want to be seen accepting legislation that was workshopped by a literal extremist hate group that wants to kill and oppress large swathes of the population. TL;DR: A thread on that stuff would be immensely useful, even if I don't have all the necessary research and documents on hand to do an OP.  Edit: I should also mention that this stuff isn't just limited to the US either. The UK TERF movement deliberately linked up with groups like this to help push anti-trans stuff into the UK and make it mainstream. And there's the whole thing with the old Uganda "Kill the gays" bill linked to evangelicals and groups like the FRC where people associated with evangelical hate groups were implicated in pushing a bill designed to genocide minorities after they spent so long assisting in local efforts by right wing politicians and religious leaders to demonize them overseas. Alongside all that there's the links evangelical christianity in the US has to Russia, their genocidal treatment of LGBTQ minorities, and the orthodox church over there that someone could probably go into depth on. Which would probably go a long way to explaining why they refused to disown Trump after his many scandals and voted for him en-masse too, despite him being basically the antithesis of any decent christian ideal as well. Along with why you can still see pictures of right wingers in the US supporting the Russian state despite (or rather because) they are genocidal bastards. So yeah, this is kind of an issue for folks even outside the US since these sorts of hate groups try to push their values on other countries as well. Ditto for some of them trying to coordinate with other bigoted monsters and authoritarian tyrants abroad to maximize the effect of their attack on minorities where ever they can find traction. Archonex fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 18:49
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Fluffdaddy posted:Weight limits divided by gender is basically the best we can do but even weight is manipulated heavily by fighters. To an extent of killing themselves trying to cut down to fight at a lower weight class.  https://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/boxing/2018/07/01/weight-cutting-boxing/
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Apr 10, 2022 20:06
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To go back to combat sports, if we're talking about active athletes Patricio Manuel wants to fight other men. He's an active pro-boxer who has not been able to get fights and any objection around fighting him has been either not wanting to be seen losing to him or not wanting to fight him out of machismo respect. Here's a full piece on him, I might have posted it earlier too but whatever it's good and a good piece on actual experience. I think that's important, we're talking about very few people when we are talking about trans athletes, they should have a large voice here. https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/id/31662608/boxer-patricio-manuel-transgender-pioneer-looking-next-fight
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Apr 10, 2022 20:08
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Archonex posted:It's not just LGBTQ people they want to go after too. I remember years ago an internal memo got leaked from one of the big groups working to push the LGBTQ bigotry that revealed that it's basically a long con by all of these "religious" (and I use that word loosely, since their beliefs have nothing to do with the bible and everything to do with their own biases) groups to go after every minority in the country. Just vaguely recalling the details of it: My working theory has always been that the majority of oppression in the United States comes from the institution of white supremacy. It infests every facet of our society and every year it finds new and exciting ways to bare its teeth against marginalized people.
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Apr 10, 2022 21:56
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transgender athletes should be the only ones allowed to compete. cis athletes have had a couple of millennia to compete; everyone who claims to be arguing in the interest of fairness should have no problem banning cis athletes for the next 2000 years
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Apr 10, 2022 22:21
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kalel posted:transgender athletes should be the only ones allowed to compete. cis athletes have had a couple of millennia to compete; everyone who claims to be arguing in the interest of fairness should have no problem banning cis athletes for the next 2000 years Hear! Hear! It's bizarre to me that people have problems with my gender! How am I any different to anyone else? I am a proud woman and that is that! E: Good to see Aginor and Trollogist got permabanned. Good to see the system work. krooslove fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 23:10
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krooslove posted:Hear! Hear! We've got a trans chat thread you might be interested in 
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Apr 10, 2022 23:14
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Anticheese posted:We've got a trans chat thread you might be interested in I'll see you there!
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Apr 10, 2022 23:16
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After reading this thread as someone who doesn't know a ton about this subject the discussion that leans towards "how far into transition should they be allowed to compete" is really informative. And thank you to people willing to share their experiences on and off hormones it's wild to hear about how pronounced the effects of being on/off them can be.
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Apr 11, 2022 00:11
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Fluffdaddy posted:My working theory has always been that the majority of oppression in the United States comes from the institution of white supremacy. It infests every facet of our society and every year it finds new and exciting ways to bare its teeth against marginalized people. I feel you have some of it, however I also feel part of it is about controlling people through the use of targeted attacks on things they don't understand or are scared of. Much of this tends to be from a top down angle, and much of the time from religious or "religious" leaders that are using it in order to control their flock. Finding a group to marginalize and paint as a problem serves as a way to control them, push an agenda and make money and power for the leaders. many times fear and ignorance serve as an avenue that can be used to drawn in people and then use them for their own purposes. Blah if I'm not at work I can explain my thought process a bit better, but I've always felt that alot of the big things from alot of the evangelical and televangelist crowds is about milking a population in order to get power and fame, and using minorities serves as an easy way to get a group to listen and then guide them to follow what you want. This also is something you see with Christian scientists and faith healers, and then antivax poo poo. Mind you your probably are absolutely right that the intial seed for the leader is about hatred and wanting those people to disappear.
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Apr 11, 2022 01:04
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Yes the best athlete should win transgender or not. Does anyone competing in sports care about this or just the out of shape chud demographic?
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Apr 11, 2022 01:16
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I think there's also the discussion to have about athletes like Caster Semenya. She's a great example of the problem of defining gender in a very specific way to create an illusion of fairness. She was assigned female at birth, she has lived her entire life as a woman, she identifies as a woman. There is no sense in which one can say, presuming one is not a piece of poo poo, that she is not a woman. Yet, she has been banned from certain specific events (oh, what a surprise: it's the ones she's good at) due to a biological quirk unless she undergoes specific medical procedures, because otherwise she's just too good. That's where this discussion leads; it's not merely trans women, it's all women. Just as with the ridiculous "bathroom bills," cis women will and do suffer as a result, because when you get right down to the issue, it's the policing of the definition of "woman" to be in accordance with the patriarchy and its wishes. Yeah, I don't doubt that women who have to run against Semenya feel that it's really, really loving difficult to compete with her. Well, you know what? Tough poo poo. I'm sure the people who ran against, I dunno, Usain Bolt, felt that was pretty goddamn difficult too. I'm sure women who play tennis against Serena Williams really struggle as well. That's the way life goes sometimes, when you're outclassed by a superior athlete who has an advantage because that's just the way they were born. So, proof by contradiction: let's assume we decide that certain biology is simply not fair for sport. If it's determined that any aspect of your biology: height, shoe size, lung capacity, lactic acid production, joint mobility, bone density, muscle density, anything, was more than two standard deviations in the beneficial direction for a given sport, then: too bad, no sport for you. Would anyone give a single gently caress about watching the resulting sports? Would that be a fair competition in the sense that we understand fair competition in sport? No, that would be awful and stupid. It would completely change the landscape of every sport, in all likelihood, and not in a way that anyone would like, and everything would still be tilted toward the people at the very edge of what is allowed versus everyone else.
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Apr 11, 2022 02:00
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maybe if you can’t compete against trans women in sports you should git gud.
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Apr 11, 2022 02:26
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The entire conceit is that there's a maximum level of gud you can git as a woman, and anything beyond that is unfair. The Semenya issue is the perfect example of that: here is a cis woman, who is simply too good at what she does, and there's all sorts of bitching about the fact that she is just too good for pretty much all other women to compete with her. This is not a trans issue because she is not trans, but it's relevant to the discussion because it proves the idea that being a woman in sport is, too often, defined as being somehow weaker or worse. Any deviation from that is simply not okay!
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Apr 11, 2022 03:28
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PT6A posted:The entire conceit is that there's a maximum level of gud you can git as a woman, and anything beyond that is unfair. The Semenya issue is the perfect example of that: here is a cis woman, who is simply too good at what she does, and there's all sorts of bitching about the fact that she is just too good for pretty much all other women to compete with her. This is not a trans issue because she is not trans, but it's relevant to the discussion because it proves the idea that being a woman in sport is, too often, defined as being somehow weaker or worse. Any deviation from that is simply not okay! Is Intersex a separate category? Legit question, I see that in the White House's announcement about Ukrainian refugees they use the acronym "LGBTQI+", the I and the + being new ones to me. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...ounding-region/ The other thing is that your line of reasoning leads one to ask the question of why have women's categories at all?
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Apr 11, 2022 04:02
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Very few things (nothing maybe?) are "fair". Sports included, and I don't think any argument to be had about how it is/isn't "fair" to let a transgender athlete to compete is worth having as it helps transphobic assholes. I don't watch sports though sooooooooo what do I know maybe I'm wrong and everyone takes the same drugs, eats the same food, can afford the same training/gear , and are clones of one another.
Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Apr 11, 2022 |
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Apr 11, 2022 04:07
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PeterCat posted:Is Intersex a separate category? Legit question, I see that in the White House's announcement about Ukrainian refugees they use the acronym "LGBTQI+", the I and the + being new ones to me. It depends on the acronym, but I is a pretty common add. Common enough that Amnesty International and NAMI use it in their official docs, at any rate.
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Apr 11, 2022 04:38
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PT6A posted:The entire conceit is that there's a maximum level of gud you can git as a woman, and anything beyond that is unfair. The Semenya issue is the perfect example of that: here is a cis woman, who is simply too good at what she does, and there's all sorts of bitching about the fact that she is just too good for pretty much all other women to compete with her. This is not a trans issue because she is not trans, but it's relevant to the discussion because it proves the idea that being a woman in sport is, too often, defined as being somehow weaker or worse. Any deviation from that is simply not okay! While I agree the Semenya decision was truly ridiculous, I don't know if this maximum allowable performance for a woman thing really works. If people believe trans women without X years of hormone therapy have a sex based biological advantage that isn't 'fair' then surely intersex cis women like Semenya would also face some sort of scrutiny that might result in hormone ajustments? It feels like a natural extension of the argument to me. And with that understanding, rather than the maximum allowable performance one, incredible cis athletes with no record of intersex conditions like Florence Griffith Joyner and Serena Williams would be permitted to excell without any intervention by sporting authorities, which seems to be the case.
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Apr 11, 2022 04:43
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The reason we have categories is the same reason we have sport/competition in general, I would say: it's fun to compete. I mean, my god, look at people who speedrun video games for little or no money, just to do it and say they've done it. I know people who've spent tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars buying planes and practicing in them, just to compete in aerobatics competitions because they enjoy doing so. Now, how do you define the divisions that make the competition meaningful to the people participating and the people watching it? That's a more difficult question, but it's also entirely arbitrary. Any competition involves those decisions. Who decides what weight various events get in a decathlon? Who decides what distance archery competitions get shot at? Who decides what constitutes a butterfly stroke or a breaststroke in comparison to freestyle? On what basis is the Formula One specification for a given season decided upon? It's arbitrary, but ultimately enough people decide: yeah, this is okay, we'll compete by these rules and standards, for whatever reward it carries. There is no grand, immutable truth to these competitions, for either men or women. The only question is where we draw the lines. Are we ethically okay with drawing the lines such that they exclude trans women? If so, what about Black women? What about cis women with unusual physical abilities; if so, is "too tall" okay, then what about "too much of a specific hormone?" I think the real issue is that there's money connected with this poo poo, and it's essentially arbitrary. If you're competing against a trans athlete and you lose, nothing has happened. If you're competing against a trans athlete and you lose and as a result you lose a scholarship, yeah, I get why you'd be pissed off about that, but it also has nothing to do with the trans athlete. I have a disability, I wasn't going to be able to compete for any such scholarship in the first place, I and most people won't get a Nike sponsorship, so... deal with it! The rest of us have.
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Apr 11, 2022 04:50
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Gentleman Baller posted:While I agree the Semenya decision was truly ridiculous, I don't know if this maximum allowable performance for a woman thing really works. My point is that drawing the line at specific hormones with given thresholds is entirely arbitrary. It's a variation, just like any of the things that make top-level athletes great in their respective fields. Oh, she has a condition that makes her better? Well, so does every top level athlete. People have just decided that this specific condition/variation is beyond the pale! There's no great logic to it, it just seemed right to enough people at the right time.
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Apr 11, 2022 04:57
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When I browsed Caster Semenya's Wikipedia entry, I learned that is that she is an intersex woman. She was born without a womb, and instead of ovaries, she has internal testes that naturally give her much more testosterone that other women have. She tried to take testosterone suppressants in accordance with the Olympic guidelines, and couldn't stay on them because they made her feel really sick. She is unquestionably a woman; she was assigned female at birth, has lived her whole life as a woman, and identifies as a woman (a quote from her is "I am a woman and I am fast.") The Olympic guidelines are unfair to her, especially since other people who naturally have exceptional physical gifts get a pass, notably Phelps. The guidelines probably were made expressly to target her, with the side effect of setting an arbitrary requirement for trans women to compete. I have no idea what better Olympic guidelines would be, though. I'm not an expert in any of this stuff.
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Apr 11, 2022 05:07
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Victar posted:When I browsed Caster Semenya's Wikipedia entry, I learned that is that she is an intersex woman. She was born without a womb, and instead of ovaries, she has internal testes that naturally give her much more testosterone that other women have. She tried to take testosterone suppressants in accordance with the Olympic guidelines, and couldn't stay on them because they made her feel really sick. Semenya has one condition of increased testosterone. There's other conditions in women that also increase T, and they're not banned under the ruling. The rules target some intersex women, and that's it. There's people with genetic abnormalities that basically give them free blood doping, they're allowed to compete. Of course, they're men.
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Apr 11, 2022 05:34
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As a trans person who didn't know a whole lot about the details of the sports stuff because the last time I've cared about sports is when I did soccer in middle school, this thread has been really informative. Also it's really heartening to see such an enthusiastic defense against bigotry particularly from staff.
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Apr 11, 2022 06:42
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Jaxyon posted:Semenya has one condition of increased testosterone. There's other conditions in women that also increase T, and they're not banned under the ruling. The rules target some intersex women, and that's it. Yep. Also people with all -sorts- of mutations that enhance performance to one degree or another, but they don't seem to care unless they're gender-related. It's just phobia expressed as concern trolling.
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Apr 11, 2022 11:03
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PT6A posted:The entire conceit is that there's a maximum level of gud you can git as a woman, and anything beyond that is unfair. The Semenya issue is the perfect example of that: here is a cis woman, who is simply too good at what she does, and there's all sorts of bitching about the fact that she is just too good for pretty much all other women to compete with her. This is not a trans issue because she is not trans, but it's relevant to the discussion because it proves the idea that being a woman in sport is, too often, defined as being somehow weaker or worse. Any deviation from that is simply not okay! PT6A posted:let's assume we decide that certain biology is simply not fair for sport. This is kind of the entire idea of segregating men's and women's sports though. At the top levels in most sports, women are not competitive with men, and because of this, women get their own competitions. If we didn't segregate most sports, there would be very few women would could compete at the top levels.
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Apr 11, 2022 11:59
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Fluffdaddy posted:The only combat sport that I know of that does not have weight Divisions is sumo. Unfortunately they also do not recognize women's sumo as legit, which is its own can of sexist worms. From what little I know of sumo, practicing it at a professional level is very hard on the body - the heavy weight of sumo wrestlers gives them all sorts of health problems and shortens their lives. Maybe it's for the best if sumo doesn't get any more popular among anyone, especially women.
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Apr 11, 2022 14:00
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Jaxyon posted:Semenya has one condition of increased testosterone. There's other conditions in women that also increase T, and they're not banned under the ruling. The rules target some intersex women, and that's it. It also targets specifically the events that Semenya is best at competing in, not even track events in general or sports in general. It's pretty hard to see it as anything but complete bullshit that they forced through because they were pissed off, very specifically, that she was winning events. You can define fairness in sport in a lot of ways, but I don't see how this is possibly considered "fair."
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Apr 11, 2022 14:08
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The entire reason sports became the popular new place for transphobes to dig in is because it's one of the only places where segregation by sex actually has a decent reason to exist, so it paints a supposedly-logical veneer over transphobia. The bathroom bill garbage didn't hold up because being able to choose your bathroom so obviously affects nobody, and liberal areas responded with the realization that segregated bathrooms are stupid to begin with. There's a reason to maintain women's sports, so the transphobes get to have their argument over the definition of woman while pretending it's about equity.
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Apr 11, 2022 14:19
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Just divide sports into Men, Rich White Women Who Fit In (If You Know What I Mean), and Miscellaneous Then we don't have to do a bunch of gymnastics to define what a woman is or argue about standards, the membership requirements for country clubs already exist so the RWWWFI(IYKWIM) category can just lift those VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Apr 11, 2022 |
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Apr 11, 2022 15:05
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VitalSigns posted:Just divide sports into Men, Rich White Women Who Fit In (If You Know What I Mean), and Miscellaneous What does this add to this conversation outside of pointless hyperbole and waving your arms around like Kermit the Frog?
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Apr 11, 2022 15:17
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Fluffdaddy posted:What does this add to this conversation outside of pointless hyperbole and waving your arms around like Kermit the Frog? Is it hyperbole tho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya quote:The IAAF policy on hyperandrogenism, or high natural levels of testosterone in women, that had been in place since 2011[75] was suspended following the case of Dutee Chand v. Athletics Federation of India (AFI) & The International Association of Athletics Federations, in the Court of Arbitration for Sport, decided in July 2015.[76] The ruling found that there was a lack of evidence provided that testosterone increased female athletic performance and notified the IAAF that it had two years to provide the evidence. quote:On 16 July, she set a new national record for 800 metres of 1:55:33.[80][81] On 20 August, she won the gold medal in the women's 800 metres at the Rio Olympics with a time of 1:55.28.[82] The win reignited controversy over the rules on permissible testosterone levels; immediately after the race Lynsey Sharp, finishing sixth, broke into tears, having previously said that "everyone can see it's two separate races",[83] while fifth-placed Joanna Jóźwik stated "I feel like the silver medalist ... I'm glad I'm the first European, the second white", to finish the race. Here's the kicker for me though quote:During the challenge, the IAAF clarified that the regulations would only apply to those with the 46,XY karyotype So the argument is that testosterone disorders give women an unfair advantage in running and should be banned. Except it's not banned, you can have as much testosterone as Caster and still compete unless you have an XY karyotype So is testosterone the reason for the ban? Obviously not. But then what is? Doesn't seem to be based on any objective performance-enhancing trait at all
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Apr 11, 2022 15:42
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