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Gentleman Baller posted:Because Caster Semenya ostensibly has a sex based advantage, and the position that women's divisions should try to ensure there aren't significant sex based advantages is a coherent one. But she doesn't, and nobody is even claiming or demonstrating that she does. The entire controversy is that she is insufficiently womanly. edit vvvv  Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 00:19
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fun fact: "trans" spelled backwards is "snart," which doesn't mean anything but it's funny to say out loud. snart!  and what is "cis" backwards? that's right, "sic."  hmm really makes you think.sorry if this post isn't in the spirit of the thread or forum but I'm not sure what else there is to discuss unless the intent is to keep the thread open as an ongoing venus fly trap for chuds (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 12, 2022 00:28
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For those interested, Dr Jordan Feigenbaum of Barbell Medicine has a really good summary of the science regarding trans athletes and the ethics involved (its loving long): https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/ It was written in 2019, i believe after USAPL's ban on FTM transgender athletes from competing in the women's division. it is powerlifting-centric but whatever, still goes over the literature regarding sports in general. however, it does not include one of Harper's latest systematic reviews, which i think is important for strength sports: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865.long How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation quote:Results Twenty-four studies were identified and reviewed. Transwomen experienced significant decreases in all parameters measured, with different time courses noted. After 4 months of hormone therapy, transwomen have Hgb/HCT levels equivalent to those of cisgender women. After 12 months of hormone therapy, significant decreases in measures of strength, LBM and muscle area are observed. The effects of longer duration therapy (36 months) in eliciting further decrements in these measures are unclear due to paucity of data. Notwithstanding, values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:29
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woozy pawsies posted:For those interested, Dr Jordan Feigenbaum of Barbell Medicine has a really good summary of the science regarding trans athletes and the ethics involved (its loving long): https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/ The weightlifting article has a lot of good resources in it.
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Apr 12, 2022 00:41
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VitalSigns posted:Well yes that's true, I didn't mean I knew for a fact, only that I looked up the record holders and there was nothing saying they are. There's one woman who has beaten Semenya's time at her main event (800m) after the 2005 drug policy changes, and there is data that suggests there is a significant performance advantage for intersex people. Under those situations, I don't think, "Well someone with even better performance than her might or might not be intersex!" is a very compelling. Especially when my position is completely based on the 1700x number. Please keep in mind, I'm a Semenya fan. My position has never been, "She's too good someone needs to stop her!" In fact I'm the opposite. Semenya has had to deal with an absolute insane amount of poo poo for the past ~13 years. Things that her non-intersex competitors never had to deal with. Things even her intersex competitors who didn't get their info leaked never had to deal with. All while doing the most intense training productively possible. You can't tell me that doesn't leave a mark. In a just world, either one where she didn't have to take blockers, or one where she did and it didn't harm her, I think she would have beaten Jelimo. VitalSigns posted:A woman (Faith Kipyegon) beat Semenya's all-time personal best in the 1500m just last year in the 2021 Olympics, so if she also secretly has XY DSD why isn't the rule being enforced then, like is it important or not Semenya's event is the 800m. Semenya has never ran the 1500m in the Olympics for a reason. Kipyegon's 800m is 3 and a half seconds slower than Semenya, and AFAIK we don't know how much of an effect the hormone blockers have or how long it takes. Jaxyon posted:But she doesn't, and nobody is even claiming or demonstrating that she does. World Athletics literally went to court with her and argued that she has a sex based advantage (and won) Edit: v v goondolences  I know the feel. I have these genes that gave me incredibly severe rheumatoid arthritis 1 year into college. Very cool, genetic lottery. Really glad you let me get all that debt first.
Gentleman Baller fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 00:47
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Gentleman Baller posted:and there is data that suggests there is a significant performance advantage for intersex people. i loving wish, most days i can barely get out of bed
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Apr 12, 2022 00:57
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Gentleman Baller posted:There's one woman who has beaten Semenya's time at her main event (800m) after the 2005 drug policy changes, and there is data that suggests there is a significant performance advantage for intersex people. Under those situations, I don't think, "Well someone with even better performance than her might or might not be intersex!" is a very compelling. Especially when my position is completely based on the 1700x number. Anyways, could you define what you mean by "meaningful competition" please? If a woman without DSD beat Semenya's time then that sounds like meaningful competition to me (if you win some and you lose some, how is there not meaningful competition, that's what happens in competitions!) On the other hand no woman has ever beat Usain Bolt's best time and from what we know today never will, which is what I think of when I think of a contest that isn't meaningful competition. Your argument I guess is that Faith Kipyegon must secretly have XY DSD (since it's such an advantage and all) or she couldn't hold a higher record than her. Like I guess beating Semenya's personal best is prima facie evidence that the person must be intersex since no woman without an intersex condition could beat her, and that seems...well wild frankly. I mean if Semenya had run in the 2021 women's 1500 m, her personal best ever score of 3:59.92 would have had her coming in at fifteenth place right behind 14th place Winnie Nanyando 3:59.80 So the entire top 14 finishers in last year's Olympic event all secretly have the 46 XY DSD condition? Really??? I mean let's say it's true, which is totally wild, but just for the sake of argument let's say you're right, they all have DSD and we'll never know because they aren't being tested for it. Then the rule isn't being enforced against anyone but Semenya. Why not? Well like you said medical records are private, we only know about Semenya because some awful bigots demanded she be tested for not looking 'feminine' enough and they got their way. But like you said, you can't tell someone has XY DSD by looking at them, so I guess women with the condition can compete as long as they look 'feminine' enough for the IOC to not test them. Wait hold on, what is the rule actually banning then in practice? Looks? This is the best defense of the rule ya got? It's not doing it for me sorry 
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Apr 12, 2022 01:14
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1700x sounds like a lot but when n=7...  Where's that 1700x figure coming from anyway? I'm still not clear how that one was measured but I really appreciate the effort post on the other stuff. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 01:28
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Harold Fjord posted:1700x sounds like a lot but when n=7... This study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11808880/ estimated that the prevalance of DSD is 1 in 20,000 (they don't cite how they got that number), and this paper https://www.researchgate.net/public...tersex_Athletes made this inference when looking at the history of restricted events for 25 years quote:Morel et al. (15)calculated the prevalence of XY DSD at 1 in 20,000, meaningthat of the 354 medals available in global athletic champi-onships in the restricted events over the past 25 years, athleteswith DSD would have been expected to win only 0.0177 medals.Hence, the presumed 30 medals are an over-representation ofapproximately 1700-fold at the podium level. As stated in the original post that cited the paper.
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Apr 12, 2022 01:40
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Gentleman Baller posted:Semenya's event is the 800m. Semenya has never ran the 1500m in the Olympics for a reason. Kipyegon's 800m is 3 and a half seconds slower than Semenya, and AFAIK we don't know how much of an effect the hormone blockers have or how long it takes. Unless Jelimo secretly has DSD as well, is that your argument?
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Apr 12, 2022 01:47
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Gentleman Baller posted:World Athletics literally went to court with her and argued that she has a sex based advantage (and won) But they didn't actually make that case. She isn't even a record holder.
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Apr 12, 2022 01:49
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Reading VitalSign's posts, I honestly think wires are too crossed to continue. I don't believe anyone who beat Semenya's 1500m score must have XY DSD, I thought I said her 1500m wasn't her event? I've never suggested there's people running around hiding their DSD from officials, never suggested Jelimo definitely has DSD. My argument is that it seems like the advantage from DSD has lead to a massive over-representation in medals earned. I did not intend to paint some picture of everyone with DSD having a 10 second advantage over all other women at every event they participate in. I guess I'm just no good at explaining myself and I'm sorry for wasting peoples time.
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Apr 12, 2022 02:31
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you're getting bogged down in numbers that don't actually matter at all
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Apr 12, 2022 02:35
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moonmazed posted:you're getting bogged down in numbers that don't actually matter at all Why don't the numbers matter? It's not a strictly philosophical argument, the difference in performance is very relevant. But as Jaxyon said, DSD is not transgender, and I'm not sure this is really a productive conversation at this point. Jaxyon posted:Also I'd like to add, while the discussion of Caster Semenya's treatment does touch on some issues that crossover with transgender athletes, she is not transgender. I feel it's important to add that because sex and gender issues are frequently confused, as are intersex and transgender issues.
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Apr 12, 2022 02:44
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Semenya's case is valuable as a proof by contradiction. If the issue with trans women athletes is that they were assigned male at birth instead of female, then it stands to reason than an athlete who was assigned female at birth and lives as a woman, should be allowed to complete with women. So the issue cannot be the gender that someone is assigned at birth and lives as. If the issue with trans women athletes is something about testosterone, then it follows that a cis woman like Semenya should not be allowed to compete (and all other female athletes should be tested to ensure they are within quantifiable limits, not just women with Semenya's specific condition, or women who strike some people as too masculine-looking), but trans women undergoing medical treatment with hormones should be allowed to compete. That doesn't make transphobes happy either, so the issue cannot be hormones. Well, what else could it be? That's why this case is relevant to the topic of the thread even if Caster Semenya is a cis woman.
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Apr 12, 2022 03:28
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Gentleman Baller posted:Reading VitalSign's posts, I honestly think wires are too crossed to continue. I don't believe anyone who beat Semenya's 1500m score must have XY DSD, I thought I said her 1500m wasn't her event? I've never suggested there's people running around hiding their DSD from officials, never suggested Jelimo definitely has DSD. I'm not trying to be a dick and I think you're coming from a good place, I was just trying to interrogate what you meant by "no meaningful competition" because that's a lot stronger than what the data support imo. Sorry if I was pressing too hard, nothing personal. I appreciate all the data you linked. I do think there's an advantage, but is it a bigger deal than say Usain Bolt's genetic advantage over other men, eh. Overrepresentation, okay I'm with you that far, but if there were no meaningful competition all the record holders should have DSD. Just the same way that all the record holders would obviously be men if the 800m were a mixed-sex event. Harold Fjord posted:1700x sounds like a lot but when n=7... Overrepresentation of a small number of people in one event is prima facie evidence of an unfair advantage.  Uhh except when it isn't. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 03:34
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PT6A posted:Semenya's case is valuable as a proof by contradiction. Reading through the case, the argument is that because of her testosterone levels she went through something like male puberty that gave her all the advantages that men have   Which uh hmm. They're exactly like men, but then why aren't they posting male champion times. Well cuz they just suck! And I guess heavy implication that they're just bad male runners who want to run women's events to get the gold. Which I think is poor reasoning but technically not hypocritical at least not by the IAAF since they allow transwomen to compete if they have been on hormone therapy for a sufficiently long time, and the argument is that women with DSD are "gonadally male" (IAAF's words, not mine) individuals who identify as female and should be treated under the rules like transwomen. What will be interesting is when transwomen who never went through a male puberty start to compete, will that resolve all the transphobes' concerns about "male puberty", I suppose time will tell! VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 03:49
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Jaxyon posted:Caster Semenya is a woman, and has lived her entire life as such. this tbh, she has an androgen insensitivity disorder, whether it be mild or complete. People with this disorder may produce testosterone, but physically look identical to any woman on the street because based on the degree, they cannot physically respond to male sex hormones. The fact that her personal medical history and condition has become a massive flashpoint is disgusting, she isnt doping, she isnt cheating, she was born in a way that through a genetic fluke her body developed in a way that resulted in her not reacting to her bodies natural hormone. If anything, the IAFF should have handled this much much better, and much more lowkey in order to protect her privacy once it was determined she wasn't doping like so many others have been in the olympics. Edit ^^^ tnh read more between the lines, its that they want to make an excuse for their ruling and they are throwing poo poo at the wall to do so. While her appearance is somewhat masculine she obviously is femine in a way that absolutely was through a normal female puberty (which guess what someone with androgen insensitivity goes through besides the period issue!) Much of her appereance also can be attributed to being an extremely fit athlete that engages in running, similar to other woman that are in similar shape. UCS Hellmaker fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 03:53
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UCS Hellmaker posted:this tbh, she has an androgen insensitivity disorder, whether it be mild or complete. People with this disorder may produce testosterone, but physically look identical to any woman on the street because based on the degree, they cannot physically respond to male sex hormones. I agree with your position overall, but just to be exact the rule doesn't apply to women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. Only women with partial insensitivity are banned, which presumably includes Semenya.
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Apr 12, 2022 04:16
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UCS Hellmaker posted:this tbh, she has an androgen insensitivity disorder, whether it be mild or complete. People with this disorder may produce testosterone, but physically look identical to any woman on the street because based on the degree, they cannot physically respond to male sex hormones. Caster Semenya's exact condition hasn't been made public. We don't know if it involves AIS. In addition, it's not exactly true that everyone with AIS looks like a typical woman. There are degrees of insensitivity, as you imply, and those correspond to how typical someone usually looks.
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Apr 12, 2022 04:18
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Sorry if I'm posting too much, I just keep reading more and more of the hearing and drat What an rear end in a top hat. So one of the obvious problems with the "she's a biological man, baby" argument is that when she stopped taking the testosterone suppressors when the rule was temporarily overturned, she didn't suddenly blow all the competition away with all her unfair testosterone enhancement. She performed sometimes better, sometimes worse, and still got beat by other women a lot. So isn't that proof the rule was bullshit? Why no, she must have been cheating deliberately! If her performance didn't improve after ceasing the suppressors, that can only mean she had secretly been skipping them all along! Well either that or she's sandbagging, throwing in some deliberate losses to trick us all into thinking she's a woman. Like she's planning out the competition "okay I need to lose this match and this match so nobody thinks I'm a man, and then I'll take the gold in Rio, but gotta be careful and slow up just enough to not set any women's world records while I'm doing it, gotta hit the sweet spot of beating all the women here but not all the women ever or getting a men's event time". What the fuuuuuck Really hard for me to give the IAAF the benefit of the doubt for non-bigoted motives when their own expert witness is like "WELL SHE MUST BE LOSING ON PURPOSE SOMETIMES TO THROW US OFF, WE'VE GOT A CRAFTY ONE HERE" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 04:36
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The "she's just trying to trick us" bullshit is surprisingly common. When you tell the transphobes "Lia Thomas didn't win any other event, how is that possible when she has such "significant advantage" and they will without missing a beat tell you it's all a ploy to avert suspicion. It's absolutely bullshit from top to bottom. Dog King posted:Caster Semenya's exact condition hasn't been made public. We don't know if it involves AIS. In addition, it's not exactly true that everyone with AIS looks like a typical woman. There are degrees of insensitivity, as you imply, and those correspond to how typical someone usually looks. What does a "typical woman" look like? I invite you to interrogate what you feel that means.
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Apr 12, 2022 04:57
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Jaxyon posted:The "she's just trying to trick us" bullshit is surprisingly common. Yea there's no winning for intersex or transwomen it seems, if you win all the events it's prima facie proof you should be competing in men's events. Don't win everything and you must be losing on purpose to cheat the system. Those notes from the hearing really lay bare how the accusation is unfalsifiable and nothing can ever exonerate her because they'll just twist any evidence to prove what they already thought. -Testosterone gives men a 10-20% advantage over women, it's not fair to let her compete with that much testosterone, it's like running against a man! Okay why isn't she beating all the women by 10-20% then if she has the muscles of a man -Because she's bad at it! she needs that 10-20% leg-up just to compete with the best women! plenty of lovely male runners lose to women too despite the male hormone advantage! Okay so why didn't her performance jump 10-20% when she stopped taking testosterone suppresors then -BECAUSE SHE'S RUNNING SLOW ON PURPOSE NOW DUH! AND ALSO SHE WAS ALWAYS ENHANCED BECAUSE SHE WAS SECRETLY NOT TAKING THEM BEFORE AND CHEATING THE BLOOD TESTS! BOTH OF THESE ACCUSATIONS ARE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME, SOMEHOW! They can't ever be wrong, all evidence against their position is just proof of ever more intricate plots by their enemies to conceal their cheating ways Dog King posted:There are degrees of insensitivity, as you imply, and those correspond to how typical someone usually looks. I am really skeptical that any kind of objective data exists to back this up, but I would be interested to be wrong if you have some. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 05:09
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   jesus tittyfucking christ VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 05:26
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https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/10597/complete-androgen-insensitivity-syndrome Since T is an important part of sex differentiation, human puberty, muscle building, body hair growth etc it's pretty easy to deduce what effects it has
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Apr 12, 2022 05:31
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Watermelon Daiquiri posted:https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/10597/complete-androgen-insensitivity-syndrome Is this supposed to be a response to "looking like a typical woman? " Because its not.
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Apr 12, 2022 06:18
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Jaxyon posted:What does a "typical woman" look like? I invite you to interrogate what you feel that means. I'm using the term "typical" informally to mean qualities that are usually found in a category, instead of qualities that are always found in a category. VitalSigns posted:I am really skeptical that any kind of objective data exists to back this up, but I would be interested to be wrong if you have some. Persons with complete androgen insensitivity have a typical female external phenotype. - Jirásek JE, Simpson JL (1976). Disorders of sexual differentiation: etiology and clinical delineation. Boston: Academic Press. ISBN 978-0-12-644450-6. - Gilbert SF (2000). Developmental biology. Sunderland, Mass: Sinauer Associates. ISBN 978-0-87893-243-6. Virilization of people with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome sometimes occurs at puberty and sometimes doesn't. The majority of individuals with PAIS are raised as male. Degree of undermasculization corresponds to degree of insensitivity. - Hughes IA, Deeb A (December 2006). "Androgen resistance". Best Pract. Res. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 20 (4): 577–98. doi:10.1016/j.beem.2006.11.003. PMID 17161333. I'm curious why you were skeptical about this idea in the first place. It seems intuitive to me that a higher degree of expression of a masculinizing hormone would lead to a more masculine appearance.
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Apr 12, 2022 06:47
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Jaxyon posted:Is this supposed to be a response to "looking like a typical woman? " no, it was in response to the end of the post preceding the one with the text images
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Apr 12, 2022 06:59
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Dog King posted:I'm curious why you were skeptical about this idea in the first place. It seems intuitive to me that a higher degree of expression of a masculinizing hormone would lead to a more masculine appearance. Because "masculine appearance" is often a knock on insufficiently feminine people in an attempt to discriminate against them, from non-"passing" transgender women, to cisgender women with PCOS, to simply women who aren't stereotypically feminine. It's frequently the line of attack used on transgender or intersex athletes("just look at them") but highly athletic cisgender females with no condition can also look "masculine".
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Apr 12, 2022 07:55
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Was gonna say, I know several woman with PCOS, and it does cause masculine characteristics like heavier body hair and some other issues that cause issues for woman that have it, all by causing some degree of higher level testosterone in the blood. Again, the issue here is the IAFF trying to make reasons stick for being bigots, not that there is an actual excuse for what they are doing. Even if the athlete had mild androgenn insensitivity, it means that she still will never be at the performance of a male athlete (even if she took testosterone replacements because she'd need massive levels to overcome her resistance) hell it may be a reason why she said that the t blockers made her sick. All of this is speculation brought on by the committees desire to attack her personal medical history and release it which still feels icky as hell as a medical professional. Still, the whole point of this is they want to allow an example to be made due to bigotry, made worse by more then likely racial overtones.
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Apr 12, 2022 08:15
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TBF the entire point here is that society bins people into two slightly overlapping norms, each with specific traits as 'characteristic' of the norm. It doesn't seem that controversial to say that things like body hair, musculature, and 'strong' features traditionally are associated with 'man' by society. I don't think anyone here is saying that associations like that aren't naïve at best.
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Apr 12, 2022 08:27
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Watermelon Daiquiri posted:TBF the entire point here is that society bins people into two slightly overlapping norms, each with specific traits as 'characteristic' of the norm. It doesn't seem that controversial to say that things like body hair, musculature, and 'strong' features traditionally are associated with 'man' by society. I don't think anyone here is saying that associations like that aren't naïve at best. That's why I'm harping on it. "masculine" looks are entirely subjective and mostly meaningless other than a way to persecute non-conforming people.
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Apr 12, 2022 08:36
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gentleman baller youre posting shockingly fixated on biological essentialism. you are holding onto that 1700x overrepresentation figure like its a magical talisman. cool off the hormone science if you would please
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Apr 12, 2022 08:50
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like do we really have to pretend any more that the IAAF isnt explicitly trying to enforce white supremacy by banning caster semenya? its so loving obvious.
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Apr 12, 2022 08:53
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e: forget it
moonmazed fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 09:02
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VitalSigns posted:What will be interesting is when transwomen who never went through a male puberty start to compete, will that resolve all the transphobes' concerns about "male puberty", I suppose time will tell! You can already see those arguments being levied against children. There's just an inherent penis energy that makes you better at sports and also a threat to women. Yes, they do insinuate that prepubescent children are rapists. This rhetoric has been successful in getting trans kids banned from sports, so I don't see why they couldn't extend it to adults. They'd still have the same argument about "stealing from real women" because a trans woman getting 5th place means that the 6th place person would have gotten 5th if the trans woman was banned. They believe that trans women are not women inherently. The arguments are constructed to suit the conclusion. They've put a lot of weight into woman=uterus, but in a few decades when transplants become possible, they will seamlessly shift to a different definition. Maybe it will be more of a focus male socialization, eg "you lived as a man for the first 7 years of your life and therefore were afforded social advantages that are unfair."
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Apr 12, 2022 10:05
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Dog King posted:I'm using the term "typical" informally to mean qualities that are usually found in a category, instead of qualities that are always found in a category. Maybe I misunderstood you, it sounded like you were saying you could diagnose Semenya's level of insensitivity just by looking at pictures of her at sports events based on whether she looks like a "typical woman" Dog King posted:Caster Semenya's exact condition hasn't been made public. We don't know if it involves AIS. In addition, it's not exactly true that everyone with AIS looks like a typical woman. There are degrees of insensitivity, as you imply, and those correspond to how typical someone usually looks. Not making general claims that people with higher sensitivity have beards and penises and stuff and are therefore more often raised as men (she wasn't) Sorry if I misunderstood, it sounded really weird so I was just asking! VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 11:45
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A big flaming stink posted:like do we really have to pretend any more that the IAAF isnt explicitly trying to enforce white supremacy by banning caster semenya? its so loving obvious. Uh, or, maybe don't conflate race and DSD, because what you're doing here is minimizing the discrimination that DSD and trans individuals face. It is "explicitly" enforcing a sex and gender binary, and though I absolutely think WA maintains white supremacy, this is a pretty garbage example to hang that on.
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Apr 12, 2022 12:48
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If you have a law against, eg, loitering, then disproportionately enforce that law against black people, the law is racist even though skin color isn't mentioned in the law. It's a pretty common tactic to deny black women their womanhood. This whole thing started with "hmm she doesn't look feminine enough, let's look into that." And, race plays into gender perception. Western culture has a very particular notion of what it means to look like a woman, and black women are perceived as less feminine that white women.
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Apr 12, 2022 13:26
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Uh, or, maybe don't conflate race and DSD, because what you're doing here is minimizing the discrimination that DSD and trans individuals face. It is "explicitly" enforcing a sex and gender binary, and though I absolutely think WA maintains white supremacy, this is a pretty garbage example to hang that on.
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Apr 12, 2022 13:47
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