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Oh cool, congrats on coming out the other end! Where’s the first-start-after-complete-disassembly video?? Re: above, I think you’ve just been in “find-it-fix-it” Problem Solving Mode for quite a while, at some point you should transition to Ride It Mode and just enjoy this magnificent vehicle you touched. This involves raising the bar of what you think is a problem way higher than earlier.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:38
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Once in a while (maybe 1 in ~10 starts?), I hear a single really awful metallic slap/crash sound when I press the starter, and I immediately let go. Next press starts the engine just fine. Is my starter starting to go? The motor ticks like a clock otherwise.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:43
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epswing posted:Once in a while (maybe 1 in ~10 starts?), I hear a single really awful metallic slap/crash sound when I press the starter, and I immediately let go. Next press starts the engine just fine. Is my starter starting to go? The motor ticks like a clock otherwise. Your starter clutch, pinion and possibly ring gear are on the way out because you keep letting go of the button right as it engages and that's the best way to gently caress them up.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:54
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Wow, so just hold that sucker down until it starts up? Sure will feel counterintuitive to power through it, given the “something is wrong!!!” sounds effects, but ok. It’s a new-to-me bike so at least I can partially blame the PO. So aside from me making it worse, what’s actually happening here, how did it get like this, and what’s the ultimate resolution? Is there a starter replacement in my future?
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Apr 10, 2022 01:06
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Let's just get this out of the way:epswing posted:Is there a starter replacement in my future? Yes, with 100% certainty, but probably five years from now. Harleys have a completely different starting system to basically every other bike, they are laid out more like a car. There is a totally 'dry' starter chilling above the gearbox, it is basically a car starter so it contains a (replaceable) one way clutch inside (this job is done by a sprag on the crank on every other bike), and a drive pinion that shoots forward via a solenoid. The pinion engages a ring gear built into the outside of the clutch basket when you push the button, then starts turning the motor. When you release the button it powers down the solenoid and the pinion gets spun back out, with the one way clutch preventing starter damage. Because the engine is a narrow angle vee, there is one area of crank rotation that's very difficult (the two compression events close together) and the rest is pretty easy. So most times, the pinion shoots forward and just immediately starts driving because there's little resistance. But sometimes, the engine has stopped right on the first compression stroke, so when the pinion shoots forward, it sometimes gets unlucky and doesn't immediately mesh with the ring gear, instead the teeth crash into one another and there is a moment of 'straining' as the starter creeps the engine over a couple of degrees, the pinon meshes fully and then everything starts to spin. From your point of view, this sounds like a loud clack noise, followed by nothing. If you just keep holding the button down, the starter will push past the 'hump' and start to crank normally. But if you just let go, all you've done is bash the pinion against the ring gear and dented a couple of teeth just that little bit for nothing. A low battery makes this problem worse and also nukes the starter clutch. A dumb PO makes it worse. Every time you 'abort' cranking, you damage the pinion and ring gear just slightly; this is very analogous to what happens to starter sprags in japanese bikes in the same situation. Eventually the tooth damage becomes so bad that most starting attempts result in the starter bouncing back instead of meshing. At that point you replace the pinion gear and clutch basket and start over.
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Apr 10, 2022 02:46
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Slavvy posted:Because the engine is a narrow angle vee, there is one area of crank rotation that's very difficult (the two compression events close together) and the rest is pretty easy. So most times, the pinion shoots forward and just immediately starts driving because there's little resistance. But sometimes, the engine has stopped right on the first compression stroke, so when the pinion shoots forward, it sometimes gets unlucky and doesn't immediately mesh with the ring gear, instead the teeth crash into one another and there is a moment of 'straining' as the starter creeps the engine over a couple of degrees, the pinon meshes fully and then everything starts to spin. Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Yes. I'm having flashbacks to previous Harleys I've owned where sometimes it half-chugs once, strains mightily, and then starts, making me think the battery is dying, but actually is fine.
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Apr 10, 2022 03:28
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My favorite Harley starter story is the chopper club guy that had an external plunger on his starter solenoid. The theory is that you're riding a piece of poo poo built in Texas so you can't trust any of the wiring, so you can push this plunger on the back of the starter to manually shove the solenoid forward, which makes the pinion mesh and starts cranking. This exact situation occurred. So the guy rammed the starter button forward, and it started cranking. It then also started to walk forward off the stand because it was in gear, and continued to do so when he let go of the button because - surprise - that button has only a tiny weak return spring so when the solenoid contacts weld themselves shut, you can't stop it cranking! And so the bike happily walked forward a foot and then had a meeting with three of it's very expensive mates and they all had a nice rest on the ground. The engine is still continually turning over at this point, and the guy is standing atop this pile of choppers frantically trying to free his (horrible, poorly designed) seat so he could disconnect the (awkwardly placed) battery while petrol pours out of several carbs and much shouting is happening in the background. In the end the cable had to be cut because everyone else was worried about their bike catching on fire. The best part? I was getting paid to watch this. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 03:36
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^^^imagining this:
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Apr 10, 2022 05:51
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HenryJLittlefinger posted:Electrical question! Revisiting this question. My research tells me that Gerbing gloves and jacket together draw about 9 amps, and 12 ga wire has a limit of 22 amps. Am I correct in assuming that a 10 amp inline fuse in my block will be sufficient to protect my bike’s system while running the gear? HenryJLittlefinger fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Apr 11, 2022 |
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Apr 11, 2022 00:20
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HenryJLittlefinger posted:Revisiting this question. 22 awg wire will be rated for something like 3 to 7 amps depending on the type of cable. 22 amps is way too much. A 10 amp fuse is enough if there isn't any inrush current, but if there is, you may need to go higher.
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Apr 11, 2022 00:50
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syzygy86 posted:22 awg wire will be rated for something like 3 to 7 amps depending on the type of cable. 22 amps is way too much. A 10 amp fuse is enough if there isn't any inrush current, but if there is, you may need to go higher. Sorry, that’s a typo. 12 gauge wire.
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Apr 11, 2022 02:46
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If you have inrush current (you shouldn’t), you use a time-delay fuse, not a bigger fuse. A 10A fuse seems reasonable to me.
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Apr 11, 2022 04:38
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Heaters are resistive loads and won't have any significant inrush even if just regulated by a ptc. Automotive fuses are more slow blow than not anyway. 10 amp sounds great and if you are worried about it, pack a second one.
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Apr 11, 2022 06:47
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Is there a minimum battery size recommended before you start adding heated grips or running heated clothing off it?
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Apr 11, 2022 07:55
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Battery size is mostly about being able to work the starter I think, when it comes to electric accessories it shouldn't matter because they'll all be running off the surplus current from the alternator.
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Apr 11, 2022 08:00
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After I put the DRZ back together I noticed my idle starts at 1500-ish with the bike cold but at red lights seems to stay at 1800-2000 and will only drop back lower if I monkey with cracking the throttle for a second. I know I had this in the past and adjusted for it but I'll be damned if I can remember the term to google/search for so if anyone can remind me that would be awesome. This isn't unexpected. The bike is jetted and has the airbox 3x3 mod but the exhaust has been replaced with stock OEM black can so totally understand that the mixture may be off. I popped an external adjustment screw into the carb before I threw it on the bike so it should be easier to adjust now, at least. At the risk of another wave of "stop caring just ride", it's just something I know I can easily adjust but can't remember how. Not stopping me from taking the bike out and I'm not pulling out clumps of hair in anxiety over it 
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Apr 11, 2022 11:46
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Sounds like a classic lean pilot causing the idle to hang high, try going out a quarter or half a turn.
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Apr 11, 2022 11:55
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Renaissance Robot posted:Battery size is mostly about being able to work the starter I think, when it comes to electric accessories it shouldn't matter because they'll all be running off the surplus current from the alternator. Ok thanks, I'll add that to the "reviewer/vlogger bullshit" folder.
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Apr 11, 2022 14:51
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Slavvy posted:Sounds like a classic lean pilot causing the idle to hang high, try going out a quarter or half a turn. ok that's the fix I'm looking for, thanks. I think "hanging idle" was the term I was missing but found after a little post searching.
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Apr 11, 2022 15:10
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If you open the throttle and let it snap shut, is this right? (Or will the rich condition just bog immediately upon opening the throttle?). Fix my MS Paint drawing.
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Apr 11, 2022 17:25
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That's pretty much right except the too-lean line wouldn't be a steady slope like that, it would plummet down to like 2500 like normal but then stay there for a few seconds before starting the gradual down slope. Likewise the 'recovery' from the rich dip is more gradual, it takes several seconds for it to chug back up. But the order of magnitude of these symptoms is directly proportional to how badly rich/lean it's running, and this only applies to the pilot circuit.
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Apr 11, 2022 18:45
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Renaissance Robot posted:Battery size is mostly about being able to work the starter I think, when it comes to electric accessories it shouldn't matter because they'll all be running off the surplus current from the alternator. So is alternator surplus generally more than enough for whatever reasonable doodads you might add, there's no surplus budget to worry about?
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Apr 12, 2022 02:57
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Remy Marathe posted:So is alternator surplus generally more than enough for whatever reasonable doodads you might add, there's no surplus budget to worry about? Depends on the bike.
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Apr 12, 2022 04:21
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Ok, so turns out riding a naked like an SV650 on the highway at 80 mph makes for a LOT of wind compared to a CBR300, so I'm looking into windscreens. But every option I see seems to put the screen on the headlight mount, which in turn is mounted onto the actual fork, and therefore if you exert force on the windscreen, you are also exerting force on the fork. So question for people who have actually had windscreens like this: does the bike steering itself become an issue? Like if you are riding in gusty winds, won't the wind catch the windscreen and kinda like... twist it to throw you off track? If it's not a big deal then I'm on this windscreen like white on rice, but if my bike is just randomly going to wander all over the lane that seems kinda bad.
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Apr 12, 2022 04:41
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Remy Marathe posted:So is alternator surplus generally more than enough for whatever reasonable doodads you might add, there's no surplus budget to worry about? For most popular bikes, someone on the internet has already done the math for what’s available with stock setup (e.g., no aftermarket bulbs etc). It’s common to do LEDs for blinkers and brake/tail lights to free up a little power for heated gear and GPS and stuff. On older, smaller, and simpler bikes there’s not much extra power to be had. When you get to the point of running out of surplus it means a new stator or rebuilding the original one. Turning dirt bikes street legal is a common place this comes up, because their stators only need to run ignition and maybe head/tail lights. A new stator (say from a dual sport model of the same bike) or rewrapping the original one can get you enough power to add blinkers, high/low beams, brake light, etc.
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Apr 12, 2022 04:44
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Mirconium posted:Ok, so turns out riding a naked like an SV650 on the highway at 80 mph makes for a LOT of wind compared to a CBR300, so I'm looking into windscreens. But every option I see seems to put the screen on the headlight mount, which in turn is mounted onto the actual fork, and therefore if you exert force on the windscreen, you are also exerting force on the fork. Bigger the screen, bigger the wobble when you get a gust. They work well on lazy fork cruisers but render fun bikes like the SV almost unrideable for me personally, ymmv. Before spending money, consider just staying relaxed and getting used to the wind blast. It is shocking if you're coming off of a faired bike, but you can do 200kmh+ on a naked easily, most of the problem is mental. You tense up anticipating a gust, so when a gust happens instead of it just being a mild push you end up making the bike steer, because you're holding so tight that your body is acting like a sail pulling on your arms, which creates unintended steering movement, which makes your tense up more, etc etc Try to force yourself to relax. You have a whole lane to wander around in, just let the bike do it's thing and instead of trying to pull yourself toward the bars, try leaning your torso forward onto the cushion of air. I find this is less fatiguing than faired bikes where you have to hold yourself up with your core alone. Also: most people wildly overshoot how much screen they need. You don't need a giant grampa window, a tiny bikini fairing or cowl above the headlight has a huge effect; some naked bikes pull this trick off with clever shaping of the instrument cluster, that's how little deflection you need to completely change the air stream in front of you. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 05:08
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Slavvy posted:Bigger the screen, bigger the wobble when you get a gust. They work well on lazy fork cruisers but render fun bikes like the SV almost unrideable for me personally, ymmv. makes sense, I'll try a small/tiny one, ty (will try to relax also, good advice) DearSirXNORMadam fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 07:00
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I did the "free power" R/R reroute on the DRZ knowing I plan to run iphone qi charger w/gps constantly draining, probably some heated grips at some point. At idle with low beams only, my voltage at the battery terminals went from 13.1 to 14.3 which is hopefully enough to keep me topped up with my lovely old phone non-stop charging inefficiently. I do want to flip out the headlight for that JNS DOT headlight kit. Took the bike out last night after dark for a quick brap and illumination was.... not pleasant. I don't know if a new bulb will do anything but I read that the JNS kit is recommended so I might put that on my christmas-in-April list at some point. Thankfully I don't do a LOT of night riding so it probably won't be an immediate issue. Only say that because I'm also going to probably lighten the battery draw a little once I go to LED. Meant to test for parasitic draw just for shits and giggles but totally slipped my mind. Can't imagine what would be drawing power but the things I don't know about electrical systems could fill a book. e: Just realized I didn't ask a single question in the question thread for a change. Oops 
some kinda jackal fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 11:27
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Yeah the stock drz headlight is not super great. An LED in the stock housing is helpful, otherwise, a new housing is in order.
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Apr 12, 2022 13:00
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Yeah the stock drz headlight is not super great. An LED in the stock housing is helpful, otherwise, a new housing is in order. Pretty much. The housing itself isn't all that great. Grab one of the aftermarket housings that have a projector in it and make some brackets out of aluminum angle. If you go led it frees up a little power for heated grips and the like. Charging system doesn't care. Any Watts that isn't being used gets shunted. I 'fixed' mine with a cheap lightbar and a 8" hid for a highbeam.  riding in the wind: relax, lean into it.
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Apr 12, 2022 16:17
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How do I use my multimeter to test my system for available watts?
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Apr 12, 2022 17:12
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Easier to look up the specs on your charging system instead. But if someone were holding a gun to your head I guess the way would be to put the multimeter into current (amps) mode, cut / interrupt your charging circuit to put your meter inline, add a large accessory draw (or run your battery down first), then ride around at decent revs to see what your amps top out at? Then multiply by 12 for watts. this is when Slavvy shows up, calls me an idiot, and tells me how to get wattage out of a charging system using a Fluke, some paracord, and three sticks of wintergreen gum Edit: I think to answer what you’re actually asking, which is whether your charging system has spare capacity, add an accessory and keep checking the voltage of your battery to see if it can keep it topped up.
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Apr 12, 2022 17:21
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Actual reliable specs are hard to come by because it's mostly posters on ADVRider and Thumpertalk playing telephone, but the general consensus seems to be that the stock DR stator puts out 200W. Draw from a stock system is about 68W (low beam, no accessories, cruising) to about 120W (high beam, blinkers, brakes). Specs on Gerbing gear estimate about 77W for the jacket, 22W for gloves, assumed at high on both. Anecdotally from the aforementioned forums, running them on low or off at low speeds around town or putting along on dirt won't drain the battery, and long stretches of highway speeds around 5000 rpm allows safe use of high output from the heated gear. I've got an HID headlamp, though the low beam may in fact be a regular old incandescent drawing ~55W. So yeah, availability of power is in fact the question I'm trying to answer, but I do want to know how to verify that for myself. If I attach my gear, turn it on, run the bike at various speeds from idle to 5000 rpm, then should I be looking for my charging voltage to stay in the 12.5-14V range? I think peak power output is supposed to be around 2000 rpm. HenryJLittlefinger fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 17:35
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This is not my strong suit but yeah if I were forced to do it when the answer isn't in the specs, I would just keep adding loads until the charging voltage doesn't cut it anymore. My gut tell me that before you get to peak capacity in the stator itself, you'll probably burn through some of the wiring. I wouldn't put a multimeter on amp mode and run it inline with your system unless you've got a really, really grunty expensive meter as most of them are limited to 10A max. An inductive meter would be a good way of doing it but again, expensive. You can get away with subpar charging at idle provided you get something when the engine is revving yeah. I don't think 5000 rpm being the break even point for charging is a sustainable situation, I would really want it to have good voltage around 2-2500 yeah.
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Apr 12, 2022 18:51
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I don't know much about bike voltage regulators, but i do know quite a bit about batteries. If your battery voltage drops to 12,5v with the engine running, something is either wrong or heavily overloaded. AFAIK most bikes run shunt regulators. So all voltage above about 14,4v is just shorted to ground. Which means you can essentially do as Slavvy says and add load until your voltage drops too far. Do NOT do that with any other type of alternator. A car alternator has a 'proper' field regulator, and it'll just burn out if you try and max it out. A lead acid battery is best charged at 14,4v and best kept charged at 13,8v. I would tolerate 13,5v under normal operating conditions but nothing less than that. Consequences of too low charge voltage: My SV had a lovely regulator that was barely able to get the voltage to 13,5 when running with no load, dropping to 12,5 with a lot of load or on hot days, and that really had a bad effect on how easy the bike was to start. Because in general it starts on the first try it was not that noticeable on normal days and i kept riding with it for a long time before measuring the voltage. But in winter i had many occasions i had to first hook it up to the charger before i could get it charged, and if i'd stop on a hot summer day it would later crank pretty slowly, sometimes even stall while cranking. New japanese mosfet regulator and all my cold start/very hot start issues are gone. Measuring the current that your alternator delivers doesn't give you the information you need (unless you know the exact amount of current you are allowed to draw). You want to know if your battery is charging, and if your battery voltage is good. As Slavvy said, putting a multimeter in series with your battery cable isn't a great idea, it's easy to overload the meter. It can definitely not handle the current the starting motor draws, and accidentally removing the battery from the circuit while the engine is running can lead to nasty voltage spikes. A clamp meter can tell you how much current is drawn if you wanna know out of curiosity, but pay attention that it is suitable for direct current. Most of the ones below $50 can only do alternating current. I haven't yet figured out if a DC clamp meter can also sense current direction. Probably it can. If it can, then it would tell you not only the current that's flowing but also whether the battery is charging or discharging. Here's the cheapest one (at an european retailer, didn't look at direct china import) i could find (within 5 minutes) that can measure DC: https://www.conrad.nl/nl/p/voltcraft-vc-330-stroomtang-digitaal-cat-ii-600-v-cat-iii-300-v-weergave-counts-2000-1307544.html LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 20:46
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LimaBiker posted:I haven't yet figured out if a DC clamp meter can also sense current direction. Probably it can. If it can, then it would tell you not only the current that's flowing but also whether the battery is charging or discharging. Every one I’ve ever used will report positive or negative depending on the voltage of the system and the orientation of the clamp over the cable, eg a -48V system will show - amperage into the load and + amperage out of the load. If you have the clamp the “wrong way” around then it will report the opposite.
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Apr 12, 2022 22:24
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If it's any help I had the Clymer for the DRZ400 open anyway. It says: Alternator Type 3-phase AC Output (regulated voltage) 13.5-15 volts at 5000 rpm Wattage 200 watts at 5000 rpm
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Apr 12, 2022 22:27
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The alternative is to insert a shunt into the charging system. Its inserted at the rectifier's positive output terminal. They're calibrated to a scale like 50mV on a 50A shunt so you can read from it using a cheap Voltmeter. How so? V = I*R. The shunt is basically a resistor in line with a current load that is the battery/headlamp/etc. If you want a less invasive version it can be inserted between the positive terminal of the battery and the main power lead of the bike. However you'll only get net charging after every system load gets its piece. To understand what the rectifier does, let's start with its source, the stator. Most road going motorcycle stators are three phase alternating current generating devices. Some dirtbikes use single phase, and old Ducatis are equipped with split-phase or 'two phase' AC. I won't get into the latter here though their theory of operation isn't much different than what we're about to get into. Three phase stators come in two flavors, Wye wound and Delta wound. If you look at your rectifier there's 3 wires that come from the stator and plug into it. They come from "three" coils in the stator. This is a Delta wound stator.  This is a Wye wound stator.  Most of your stators are going to be of the Wye variety. More Voltage, less current. This is great for the vast majority of bikes. Higher Voltage at idle so that when its converted by the rectifier, there's no Voltage sag. Stator output is rpm dependent so the vast majority are wired in Wye. Rewiring it into a Delta flips this to more Current at the cost of lower Voltage output from the stator. Fine for a tourer or a motorcycle that sees a lot of load and constant high running rpms. The rectifier/regulator has two jobs. First it rectifies this incoming three phase alternating current into direct current. Then this direct current is regulated to so it stays within boundary conditions as to not cause an overcharge. Rectification is easy. A block of diodes is employed to work as a full wave rectifier. Back in the old days we did this with Mercury(never on motos). Now we have silicon on our side. What is all this and why do you care? Full wave rectification retains the full sine-wave incoming from the stator which allows for more current delivered by the charging system. A half wave rectifier would send half as much power to the regulator to process.  With all three phases the resulting ripple looks like this. Assume the engine is idling at a fixed rpm. (this diagram is for 3-ph industrial power, I'm co-opting it for our discussion here)  Note the diode ripple. in 3-phase power rectifiers, conduction always occurs in the most positive diode and the corresponding most negative diode. Thus as the three phases rotate across the rectifier terminals, conduction is passed from diode to diode. Now that we have a solid reliable DC source. Let's control it. Voltage regulation. The oldest and most common system employed is by using shunt resistors. When the system Voltage is too high, the stator is shorted through a series of shunts to pull the system Voltage into a preset level. Typically 14.4V like stated. When these resistors(or in this diagram's case, Shottky diodes) are overheated or begin to age out the Voltage control gets sloppy allowing for Voltage spikes and other run-away conditions that can damage the bike's electronics and boil the battery if its a lead-acid type. Should also note here that the battery is like a ballast and will smooth out the control logic of a rectifier. Bad cells, wiring, or running batteryless can cause old versions of this rectifier to oscillate in its control functions which can cause Voltage runaways or a breakdown of the system.  An older version of this shunt style is by not using a shunt at all, but breaking the circuit between the rectifier block and the output. This is a pretty crude inefficient control system. It's kind of abusive to the stator in the form of excess heat and potential Inductive Flyback. Mosfets: Here's your standard mosfet rectifier. Note that three of the waveform rectifiers are now integral to the mosfet itself. This is by design and found on all mosfets. Its actually a a process artifact that's a handy feature. This diode provides a path for reverse drain current when the mosfet is connected with an inductive load. The stator is a giant inductor. At the opposite side of the rectification block Shottky diodes are used to control losses and clamp Voltage. This works similarly to that of the shunt style but with some additional smarts about it. Shottky diodes control the voltage, the mosfets control the current output. The control logic can finely control the stator's output using the mosfets where the shunt type is on and off(output and shunt, respectively).  The latest is The Phase Control rectifier. In phase control regulators and rectifiers, controlling the conductive phases weakens and strengthens the field where the stator functions in order to adjust the stator output. In this way, the output can be boosted in the low RPM range without increasing the size of the stator, and the output can also be tapered down in high RPM range. Controlling the conduction phase improves the stator's performance and its life. The stator itself operates cooler in temperature which lengthens its lifespan.  There's an added magnetic pole position detection sensor and the control unit 'reads' the raw incoming three phase.  Sources and further reading: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=ideas-and-advice/shunt-resistors-guide https://procycle.us/how-to/wye-delta-stator-conversion https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/power/three-phase-rectification.html https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/motorcycle/reg/ https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/technology/motorcycle_gp/
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Apr 12, 2022 22:49
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Ok, great, thanks. This explains a lot. I don't have the means or desire to wire any kind of testing stuff into the system, this would just be standing at the bike with normal multimeter leads on the battery cables. So the main points I'm taking away for my use case are: LimaBiker posted:add load until your voltage drops too far. Is that a correct distillation of everything so far?
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Apr 12, 2022 23:21
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cursedshitbox posted:
Don't most modern bikes run a full bridge into basically a switched mode power supply? Or are the current draws so high that's uneconomical or whatever? edit: Oh, I'm a dummy, that's basically what you describe in the mostfet section, right? (except with no capacitors?) DearSirXNORMadam fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 00:38
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