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SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012

Fun Shoe

juggalo baby coffin posted:

I think you're right about the water dancer, and the dragons thing, and I think that leads me to an interesting thought were those final dragons who attacked the erdtree the dragon equivalents of the demigods we face? was the giant one in the city the dragon version of Marika? creatures, degenerate but still of great power, who refused to see that their time had come? Placidusax definitely exhibits a trait from our time as khwarezm pointed out: two of something with an absent three (heads and fingers)

also regarding the Nox:

Architecturally there are two distinct sets of cities underground. Nokstella and Nokron have very bloodborney aesthetics, but Uhl Palace Ruins and the Siofra Palace Ruins are a very distinct more ancient style. The claymen are also always seperate from the mimics, so I don't know if they're related. I think the Nox built amongst the ruins of that older civ. Uhl Palace also shares an architectural style with the ruins in the Lake of Rot and the rot temple after it, so it could be possible that the claymen civ was the rot civ? although you don't see too much scarlet rot in the siofra ruins that also look the same.

Just throwing this out there but I think it's interesting that placidusax is floating in the air when you find him like how marika was in the erdtree. Also placidusax is visibly broken but has two heads that are the same entity, which is sort of like how radagon and marika are the same... but it never appeared as though the two heads of placidusax had any difference to one another. I don't think they had different breath.

I guess also the major difference is that placidusax was the elden lord, and marika/radagon was elden lord and God.

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Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life

GreatGreen posted:

Fair.

After finding and citing where the major complaints begin I watched that part another time and the summary of the major complaint is that quite a few bosses have states that are entirely too long in which they are unable to be safely engaged with, making the fights boring and not fun. The bosses get to whirl around everywhere while the player has to just sit around and watch for 20-30 second stretches at a time, or even quite a bit longer with late game bosses, before giving you an opening to be able to safely attack, which is boring. The guy compares Elden Ring to Sekiro, where you always have an option to do progress the fight in some meaningful capacity at all times, like being able to fill up a boss stagger bar by blocking, whereas in Elden ring, some boss combos are so long that all you can do is run away and stay back until the boss simply stops moving around and attacking.

Again I didn't watch the video so maybe I'm wrong but I noticed a lot of his footage had a huge gently caress off sword/hammer so maybe he was playing to conservatively and somewhat hampered by the fact he was using a slow weapon? I will agree the bosses are more aggressive in this on average then their other souls games but I definitely never went longer than 20 seconds hitting boss, even on EB as melee. Again Radahn phase 2 being an exception because I had to just run around summoning dudes or face getting one shot by the meteors.

There was probably a way to read that meteor attack but I couldn't figure it out. It wasn't like the magic dagger spell in PvP you could bait by running into him he seemed to just have them follow him around and arbitrarily fire them at you.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Mr. Crow posted:

Part A) seems pretty unreasonable given the scale of the game and the purpose those enemies have. I wouldn't classify any of them as bosses for example, mini-bosses maybe. Even accepting that there are a huge variety of archetypes for the minibosses, and variations among that even. I think the only minibosses I got sick of where the tree spirit worm things, all the others even dragons which are probably most numerous are fun to fight so ugh :shrug:

Part B) I beat the game as pure melee so not really convinced of this argument either, Radahn, who is not end game, was the biggest pita but I think they nerfed his bullshit meteor attack in phase 2 since then? Also ironic, again, considering beating sekiro requires utter mastery of their specific gameplay mechanics. Ishin is most certainly one of their most difficult encounters they've ever designed (if not THE) and impossible unless you've got a really, really good grasp on the game. I have several friends that never were able to beat him.

To be clear even after ER I think Sekiro is possibly still their best game, but comparing the two is just idiotic, which seemed to be over half the video

But the point that he's making when it comes to Sekiro is that a lot of the bosses (notably Melania) seem to be highly influenced by the design principles in that game but they don't work nearly as well when you are using the Dark Souls-esque mechanics, particularly since you can react and counter moves that Sekiro bosses do with even when they are highly complex, while in comparison when faced with something like Melania's waterfowl dance your best bets are to either dodge for ages or straight up run away. Its inherently passive and means that a lot of the fight ends up with the player not doing much and having to play very defensively in comparison to Sekiro where these kinds of fights and the moves that they use fundamentally work better, like here in this very thread I've seen people make the well worn comments about Sekiro bosses put in a Dark Souls game.

It increasingly annoys me how people react when videos like this are shared with the 'hour long? get a life loser' bit. Its not 2010 anymore, with a video like this is actually pretty good background listening when I'm playing a game, in fact I listened to it when I was in the middle of playing Elden Ring. There's a lot of things I disagree with, and certainly I think that Anderson's opinions on other things can be idiotic and laughable, but its annoying when people have the automatic negative reaction to a video like this getting shared and refusing to engage with it, like I actually thought he was pretty good at voicing a lot of the misgivings I had about the game that haven't been talked about much elsewhere.

GreatGreen posted:

Posting a 2 hour video to support one or two points was a bit thoughtless on my part, I'll admit that.
I posted the video though because I found the whole thing to be entertaining and well thought out.

Dude, there's nothing wrong with you posting the video, its fine. At worst you just need to mark specific times where he's making the points you think are most relevant, and most videos these days have chapter markers.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Apr 12, 2022

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


Megasabin posted:

[cool theory cropped for length]

I should thank you. I was trying to mull over these ideas and get them from bullet points to organized paragraphs , but it looks like you just helped me make my first draft here and now.

This is really great and lines up with my theories in a lot of places, and fills gaps in my theories in others. I have a couple of questions/speculations based on it:

- I've been trying to figure out if the One Great refers to an unsplintered Greater Will, or if it refers to a prior undivided state of all things. In Judaism they have the sephirot, which is an arrangement of basically runes that is also called the tree of life. It's the celestial body of the first human, Adam Kadmon, a spiritual being that encompassed all aspects of humanity / virtues of god (ie both masculine and feminine). Kadmon was split into two beings, dividing one being into two equal beings (note where later stories of eden have eve be made of just a small piece of adam).

Later on they were 'clothed in skins' and sent to earth, ie given physical bodies as opposed to the spiritual life they had before. Whether they were sent there as a punishment or as prophets of god is a matter of some discussion.

the parallels to elden ring are pretty obvious i imagine, but I'm having trouble lining it up because there's another big 'splitting' in the jewish kabbalah. originally god was all there was, timeless, boundless, etc. But if you're all there is, you have no way of knowing yourself because there is nothing to define yourself against. So god contracts down to a point, creating space, then begins to emit light and matter and etc to create the world.

I'm not sure if the One Great refers to the 5 fingered full Greater Will, or if the One Great refers to something before it that split into all the outer gods.

- I'm still trying to fit together a neat picture of the duality of the Greater Will, it seems like:

Greater Will = Holy (two fingers) + Fire (Three Fingers) = Primal Crucible and era of greater conquest, this is Godfrey's time and he did all the conquering.

Golden Order = Holy (Two Fingers) + Magic (The Full Moon) (the transformation that produces gold is represented in alchemy as the marriage of the red sun king and the blue moon queen) = Erdtree Present, initially a more stable and peaceful order but has been decaying due to a flaw in construction. Noble Goldmask figures this out through study of the Erdtree's light.

were the people in the Great Caravan originally devout members of the faith who fell afoul of a schism? Or did they not exist prior to that schism?

- Beyond that I'm trying to figure out if the dragon civ was a representative of the Greater Will, or if it was a different Outer God. I've been trying to figure out if the natural order is the Greater Will renewing itself cyclically through new avatars, or if the Outer Gods kinda take turns. Like was the Scarlet Rot god meant to be next, with Malenia as its Marika and the Scarlet Bloom as its physical embodiment?

- Miquella is associated with Unalloyed Gold, which I think is a very significant contrast to the Golden Order, which is explicitly alloyed gold. Was Miquella going to be the new vessel of the reunited greater will? There's a lot of light and sun imagery in the Haligtree, so was he perhaps associated with the possible Sun outer god that is referenced on the Sun Shield?


these are more catalysts for thought than direct questions, its just easier to phrase what I'm thinking about like this.

Raine
Apr 30, 2013

ACCELERATIONIST SUPERDOOMER



sekiro was created as fanservice to the endless tide of weeb dex katana mains and i will die on this hill

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

marshmallow creep posted:

Is there anyone with a real explanation of why Ranni and Blaidd and Marika and Maliketh (and I think at least one more empyrean mentioned in an item description) have a brother/sister bond between a human/god/demigod and a beastman? Is it to really to establish a parallel that Ranni is really the second coming of Marika, because she in addition to being an empyrean also has a beastly half-brother? Miquella and Melenia don't have beast siblings (unless we count Mohg and Morgott, but they're not exactly close or interact in any way).

In Nokstella the miniature Ranni says that Blaidd was intended by her Two Fingers to be her vassal because she was an empyrean. In other words, it is specifically empyreanness that gets you the wolf buddy. She brings up Miquella and Malenia as her fellow empyreans right before that too.

She also speaks of the Baleful Shadows, plural. Oddly, we only ever meet one of these guys. it could be a translation issue, since Japanese doesn’t often mark plurals. Alternatively, since she brings this up in the context of Malenia and Miquella being empyreans, maybe the implication is that the Baleful Shadow we kill in her quest is Miquella’s or Malenia’s, sent by their two fingers at some prior time to whack her, since Blaidd wouldn’t do it himself.

dodgeblan
Jul 20, 2019

2house2fly posted:

So why was Godwyn killed specifically? I haven't found any lore about what he was like in life that would have made him a target, so based purely on the name Godwyn The Golden I'm figuring he was the most loyal of Marika's children to the Golden Order and so if someone wanted to act against the Order he would be the most likely to oppose them, so either Marika or Ranni wanted him out of the way before things kicked off

I'm getting close to the end of the game and getting the itch to clear up my lore Qs

this is the part of the story that trips me up the most

The portrayal of Ranni seems to me to be overwhelmingly pretty heroic, and I'm not sure how you square that with killing your half brother. In the vaati lore explainer he emphasizes the fact that the first set of royal children are essentially a completely different household to the Rennala children, and wouldn't really have had any kind feelings towards them

Gets harder to justify killing your son as Marika, if Marika was in on the plan of the shattering

Professor Beetus
Apr 12, 2007

They can fight us
But they'll never Beetus
I think people that think enemy combos last too long are just exaggerating because they suck at being able to read natural opportunities for punishment and keep getting owned. Source: I am a person that sucks at reading opportunities and keep getting owned.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

dodgeblan posted:

I also don't get people complaining about enemy repetition in Elden Ring

I can't think of a single game I've ever played with more enemy variety.

It has bears AND lobsters.

It basically has every fantasy creature in the history of the world as an enemy and they all have different strategies and approaches. And not just like 'oh you gotta learn their moves' fighting each of the different types of creatures has a unique approach.

I agree, and that's a fromsoft staple. Like in Bloodborne there's one area that has fly/human hybrids. They're only in that one section of the game but they're their own entire enemy type with their own moves and everything

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


marshmallow creep posted:

I find it extremely funny that the erdtree, the tree of life and order, is literally the tree of life, as in taxonomy, and has to organize everything to be distinct and separate and gets real mad when things don't display the traits they're supposed or have traits that belong to other things. "No! You are human and humans don't have horns! Stop that!"

Is there anyone with a real explanation of why Ranni and Blaidd and Marika and Maliketh (and I think at least one more empyrean mentioned in an item description) have a brother/sister bond between a human/god/demigod and a beastman? Is it to really to establish a parallel that Ranni is really the second coming of Marika, because she in addition to being an empyrean also has a beastly half-brother? Miquella and Melenia don't have beast siblings (unless we count Mohg and Morgott, but they're not exactly close or interact in any way).

this is a really good question. here's some dialogue from Iji about it:

quote:

I presume you've spoken with Blaidd? Very well. There is something you should know. The Two Fingers gave Blaidd to Lady Ranni, as a faithful follower. Her very shadow, incapable of treachery. But if Lady Ranni, as an Empyrean, reists being an instrument of the Two Fingers, the shadow will go mad, transforming from a follower into a horrid curse. But such is his destiny. In such matters, Blaidd's own thoughts hold no weight. It pains me so, but he must be neutralised. For Lady Ranni's sake.

I think the Greater Will puts them there as a failsafe on the kids it thinks will try some gently caress poo poo. Ranni & Marika both plot against the Greater Will in some way. Malekith was explicitly used to keep the other demigods in line.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

khwarezm posted:

It increasingly annoys me how people react when videos like this are shared with the 'hour long? get a life loser' bit. Its not 2010 anymore, with a video like this is actually pretty good background listening when I'm playing a game

have you considered silence instead

GreatGreen
Jul 3, 2007
That's not what gaslighting means you hyperbolic dipshit.

Professor Beetus posted:

I think people that think enemy combos last too long are just exaggerating because they suck at being able to read natural opportunities for punishment and keep getting owned. Source: I am a person that sucks at reading opportunities and keep getting owned.

Maybe you don't suck and have instead simply resigned to the false notion that From Software is divine and perfect and therefore any time you aren't having Peak Fun is simply because you're not playing well enough? Because it definitely can't be that there's something wrong with the way From made their definitely perfect game, can it.

Promethium
Dec 31, 2009
Dinosaur Gum

2house2fly posted:

So why was Godwyn killed specifically? I haven't found any lore about what he was like in life that would have made him a target, so based purely on the name Godwyn The Golden I'm figuring he was the most loyal of Marika's children to the Golden Order and so if someone wanted to act against the Order he would be the most likely to oppose them, so either Marika or Ranni wanted him out of the way before things kicked off

I'm getting close to the end of the game and getting the itch to clear up my lore Qs

The ghost spirit in front of the Church of Pilgrimage in southern Limgrave early on has something to say about Godwyn. I don't remember the exact phrasing so you can go there and see if it gives you some ideas. My interpretation is that as the ghost says, Marika considered him unwanted in some way, so that would lend some credence to the theory that he needed to be removed as part of the plan to break the Golden Order. And given that Those that Live in Death is an explicit flaw in the Golden Order, allowing a demigod to become one could also be a way to weaken the Greater Will's influence.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Oxxidation posted:

have you considered silence instead

For the first fifty hours, then I started listening to podcasts and videos and stuff. Apologies to the Elden Ring musicians and guys behind the ambient sounds.

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life
Look all I'm trynna say is just because some dude made a 10 hour video on souls games doesn't mean he's the authority on jack or poo poo


Watching this video at the glorious 1:08 mark and this sounds like he just got butt blasted by malekith and malenia and is real mad about them so he made a two hour video about it and retroactively applied his criticisms to every boss. He's talking about how having bosses with varied movesets is bad depending what you, the player, do? Literally every other video on the internet is "wow margitt is so cool because he varies his attacks and that's why he's such a good first boss". And that its impossible to fight them without taking damage??? Buddy there are already people beating the game and those bosses specifically with no hits and faster than your supposed "minutes of idle time between attacks", if your gonna make a multi hour video about it come up with better material.

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



isn't malekith considered one of the finest fights in the game even among the malenia haters

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Promethium posted:

The ghost spirit in front of the Church of Pilgrimage in southern Limgrave early on has something to say about Godwyn. I don't remember the exact phrasing so you can go there and see if it gives you some ideas. My interpretation is that as the ghost says, Marika considered him unwanted in some way, so that would lend some credence to the theory that he needed to be removed as part of the plan to break the Golden Order. And given that Those that Live in Death is an explicit flaw in the Golden Order, allowing a demigod to become one could also be a way to weaken the Greater Will's influence.

Exact quote.

quote:

The mausoleum prowls. Cradling the soulless demigod. O Marika Queen Eternal. He is your unwanted child.

That ghost confused the hell out of me. It seems like he’s talking about two different things at once. The soulless demigod surely has to be Godwyn, right? But if that’s what the ghost means, isn’t he just wrong? Godwyn isn’t there. He’s not in that mausoleum or any mausoleum, he’s down at the Erdtree root. You could MAYBE describe him as Marika’s unwanted child—but why would the ghost know that? The general public doesn’t know who did the NOBK at all, let alone that Marika could have been complicit in it. This random guy would have no reason to believe that Godwyn was unwanted, would he?

Complicating that—who actually is in the mausoleums? What is their deal? Are they also dead demigods? They transmute remembrances, which is an Erdtree thing and otherwise only associated with the Finger Reader. Why were they put in big mausoleums that walk around—why not in the Tree like Godwyn himself?

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


the bosses in elden ring are, as bosses in every other souls game have been, proportionally more tuned to counter tactics players used to counter bosses in the previous game. in this one they're much better at adapting to player strategy and punish flask use / casting more aggressively. it can be kind of irritating but like if it wasnt like that people would bitch that it's too easy, because if the bosses were just as difficult as dark souls 3 bosses and people have been fighting those for years, it would be too easy.

Bananasaurus Rex
Mar 19, 2009
Godfrey is the best fight in the game

Followed closely by Godefrey

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life
I struggled with Radahn more than any other boss in this game, for whatever reason, and I see these videos with dudes literally one shotting him and think "wow thats cool From made a game so good that supports such a variety of playstyles that what I found difficult doesn't necessarily reflect on the game or boss as a whole?! Maybe next time I'll be less dogmatic about my specific playstyle and try switching it up or whatever"


Seriously look at this video this is amazing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlJ4n213Aj0

SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012

Fun Shoe

skasion posted:

Exact quote.

That ghost confused the hell out of me. It seems like he’s talking about two different things at once. The soulless demigod surely has to be Godwyn, right? But if that’s what the ghost means, isn’t he just wrong? Godwyn isn’t there. He’s not in that mausoleum or any mausoleum, he’s down at the Erdtree root. You could MAYBE describe him as Marika’s unwanted child—but why would the ghost know that? The general public doesn’t know who did the NOBK at all, let alone that Marika could have been complicit in it. This random guy would have no reason to believe that Godwyn was unwanted, would he?

Complicating that—who actually is in the mausoleums? What is their deal? Are they also dead demigods? They transmute remembrances, which is an Erdtree thing and otherwise only associated with the Finger Reader. Why were they put in big mausoleums that walk around—why not in the Tree like Godwyn himself?


Mausoleums do have those death looking skull parasites on them... idk what that means but it's a bit of a link to Death.

Malaria
Oct 21, 2017



Got the platinum trophy on PS5.

Took 110 hours. I'd say for 100 of those hours, this was one of the best games I've ever played.


The last 10 or so hours have really soured me on it all. Haligtree, Consecrated Snowfield, and Ordina are all just loving terrible. Reusing the same boss/monsters over and over(Tree spirit, Avatar, 50 different kinds of heavy knight dudes, the flying watchdog things, etc) is pretty lame and gets old and really started to annoy me as time went on. Everything post capital feels kinda rushed and like they just threw a bunch of mobs at you at once to keep up the reputation of being a difficult game. These things aren't difficult, it's just annoying. Giant bosses with the terrible camera is another gripe. Fire Giant and the Dragonlord boss were both not fun at all because you can't see anything. I felt like the camera did way better during Elden Beast and it's a "giant" boss. I don't know why others are basically impossible to see anything going on with but that one seems fine.

Also everything post capital has way too much hp imo. It becomes a chore to kill anything tougher than a generic soldier as the game goes on.

The only boss I really had a hard time with was Melina, but that seems to be the norm.


I ended up save scumming the endings for the trophy, I had planned to do 3 play throughs, but I think I'm good.

Very good game all around though.

WoodrowSkillson
Feb 24, 2005

*Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

juggalo baby coffin posted:

the bosses in elden ring are, as bosses in every other souls game have been, proportionally more tuned to counter tactics players used to counter bosses in the previous game. in this one they're much better at adapting to player strategy and punish flask use / casting more aggressively. it can be kind of irritating but like if it wasnt like that people would bitch that it's too easy, because if the bosses were just as difficult as dark souls 3 bosses and people have been fighting those for years, it would be too easy.

i know why they do it, but few things are as infuriating as being able to clearly see an attack is hard coded to start the second you press the heal button, the crucible knight's thrust being the first one the comes to mind. I've been around the block now so I take the lesson and adjust, but I'm not surprised when it pisses people off.

Cowcaster posted:

isn't malekith considered one of the finest fights in the game even among the malenia haters

I think a lot of the issues driving the overall Discourse On Boss Quality is that there are a lot of new players, and they have not yet experienced roiling a new character and just dumpstering bosses that took forever the prior run, and getting smashed by some boss you one shot. So much of what makes a boss easy/hard to people can come down to playstyle and the kit you are bringing.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Cowcaster posted:

isn't malekith considered one of the finest fights in the game even among the malenia haters

I ground through both of them on the same day (Malenia first). really enjoyed Malenia even though she killed me a lot, but I hated Malekith, he was so frustrating. He’s very squishy so I kept thinking I could blitz through his health, and then eat poo poo repeatedly to his ridiculous spinning combos, run out of heals and die to fire tick damage. I’ll see if I like him any better with a faster weapon though, or when I haven’t had to learn Malenia first.

OxMan
May 13, 2006

COME SEE
GRAVE DIGGER
LIVE AT MONSTER TRUCK JAM 2KXX



GreatGreen posted:

Maybe you don't suck and have instead simply resigned to the false notion that From Software is divine and perfect and therefore any time you aren't having Peak Fun is simply because you're not playing well enough? Because it definitely can't be that there's something wrong with the way From made their definitely perfect game, can it.

I think getting gud gets conflated a lot with go away and do something else, or the even better, use a different thing. It's not that From has made the perfect game, it's that From has given you 6 ways to deal with a situation but because it's too inconvenient or goes against a self imposed code, people get really mad they can't keep doing one thing, even when doing one thing worked until now. Hell, maybe they even did one thing and it worked all through an older souls game.
Older souls games didnt have respecs and on demand NPC summons either, but people still play it like it does. And after people do hitless runs and lvl 1 runs and still fight and beat every boss, no, it's still the games fault. If getting gud is beating the whole game at lvl 1 and being cheap is tiche kamehamehaing your way through it, that someone can't find a way through is kind of on them, and that means neither get gud or do something else. It's like playing GTA and always obeying the traffic laws.

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



Mr. Crow posted:

I struggled with Radahn more than any other boss in this game, for whatever reason, and I see these videos with dudes literally one shotting him and think "wow thats cool From made a game so good that supports such a variety of playstyles that what I found difficult doesn't necessarily reflect on the game or boss as a whole?! Maybe next time I'll be less dogmatic about my specific playstyle and try switching it up or whatever"


Seriously look at this video this is amazing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlJ4n213Aj0

loving lmao i started getting ready to type up a post "i hate how the meaning of the term "one-shot" has drifted from 'kill something in one hit' to 'kill something in one try' over the years thanks to souls players" boy is that egg on my face

Perfect Potato
Mar 4, 2009
A formula perfected - Elden Ring

https://i.imgur.com/X8dSpDu.mp4

sure okay
Apr 7, 2006





It's so subjective that it's difficult to label what a "bad" fight really is. Your frustration is someone else's cup of tea.

I will say there is an Ulcerated Tree Spirit in a legacy dungeon that I think is bad because:
A) I have fought this enemy type numerous times and he brought nothing new to the fight, and
B) It was in a small room for such a massive boss that my camera was constantly being wonky.

Notice the "I think" there in front of my opinions, because that's just what they are! Youtubers and posters ITT sometimes (repeatedly) present subjective opinions as facts and it's very tiring. Writing "I think" in front of your takes is both humbling for yourself and persuasive to others, so maybe give it a spin!

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life
A pro tip for anybody complaining about enemies/bosses stabbing you in the face when you try and heal: it's an easy bait just hold circle or whatever and run backwards, then heal. Overwhelming majority of bosses you can just run to put distance between you and heal, the distance required to bait it and not get it hit varies but it's pretty reliable and the range window is semi-consistent. Do it a few times and you'll get the timing. I think this works on basically every "human'ish" enemy? I can't remember it not working on one of them anyway, I'm sure there are exceptions.

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002




you roll into the attack in the beginning so i know you know how that works

WoodrowSkillson
Feb 24, 2005

*Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

OxMan posted:

I think getting gud gets conflated a lot with go away and do something else, or the even better, use a different thing. It's not that From has made the perfect game, it's that From has given you 6 ways to deal with a situation but because it's too inconvenient or goes against a self imposed code, people get really mad they can't keep doing one thing, even when doing one thing worked until now. Hell, maybe they even did one thing and it worked all through an older souls game.
Older souls games didnt have respecs and on demand NPC summons either, but people still play it like it does. And after people do hitless runs and lvl 1 runs and still fight and beat every boss, no, it's still the games fault. If getting gud is beating the whole game at lvl 1 and being cheap is tiche kamehamehaing your way through it, that someone can't find a way through is kind of on them, and that means neither get gud or do something else. It's like playing GTA and always obeying the traffic laws.

fundamentally, souls games are about using the tools provided to you to beat the bosses. limiting oneself is purely self ascribed challenge. the bosses take no mercy on you, and will absolutely kick the poo poo out of you for hours sometimes, so not using other stuff, especially on a first playthrough, to me is being a bit silly. Ash summons, NPC summons, player summons, rune arcs, consumables, etc are all tools that can and should be used to break the game over your knee.

Mesadoram
Nov 4, 2009

Serious Business
So I made a build to use the Blasphemous Blade, but out of curiosity I decided to just gently caress around with the Magma Blade.

Holy poo poo the Magma Blade is awesome. It's ash consumes low FP and just vomits out damage.

OxMan
May 13, 2006

COME SEE
GRAVE DIGGER
LIVE AT MONSTER TRUCK JAM 2KXX



sure okay posted:

It's so subjective that it's difficult to label what a "bad" fight really is. Your frustration is someone else's cup of tea.

I will say there is an Ulcerated Tree Spirit in a legacy dungeon that I think is bad because:
A) I have fought this enemy type numerous times and he brought nothing new to the fight, and
B) It was in a small room for such a massive boss that my camera was constantly being wonky.

Notice the "I think" there in front of my opinions, because that's just what they are! Youtubers and posters ITT sometimes (repeatedly) present subjective opinions as facts and it's very tiring. Writing "I think" in front of your takes is both humbling for yourself and persuasive to others, so maybe give it a spin!

Lol even the tiny room ulcerated tree spirits were cool on ng+ (and I HATED THEM ng) because once i realized where their safe spots and hitboxes are, those fights are easier as melee cause it's easier to unlock and wail powerstanced L2s from safe spots and they can never get far enough from you to not allow you to easily reset.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
I Think there's always an inherent risk with saying that any element in a From game may be a bit too difficult because people tend to automatically write it off as just not understanding the game or not being good enough at the game. I don't think that difficulty for its own sake is a great thing and frankly I really do think that Malenia at least is way overtuned to be ridiculously punishing. I would prefer if From didn't feel the need to one up themselves with every new game because I think this will eventually end with some enemy in Elden Ring 6: Ring Harder with a combo that lasts an hour.

The thing is also, it feels like Elden Ring gives the player a lot more potential ways of turning almost every fight into a farce potentially if they know what items and builds to use, especially with the introduction of spirit summons, so I guess its not technically harder, but it does feel as though the ability to play these games as just some dude with a big hammer has gotten more and more difficult, and in previous games I found that the most engaging way to approach Souls games.

Raine
Apr 30, 2013

ACCELERATIONIST SUPERDOOMER



Mr. Crow posted:

A pro tip for anybody complaining about enemies/bosses stabbing you in the face when you try and heal: it's an easy bait just hold circle or whatever and run backwards, then heal. Overwhelming majority of bosses you can just run to put distance between you and heal, the distance required to bait it and not get it hit varies but it's pretty reliable and the range window is semi-consistent. Do it a few times and you'll get the timing. I think this works on basically every "human'ish" enemy? I can't remember it not working on one of them anyway, I'm sure there are exceptions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcEzuGbrqQ8

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life

sure okay posted:

It's so subjective that it's difficult to label what a "bad" fight really is. Your frustration is someone else's cup of tea.

I will say there is an Ulcerated Tree Spirit in a legacy dungeon that I think is bad because:
A) I have fought this enemy type numerous times and he brought nothing new to the fight, and
B) It was in a small room for such a massive boss that my camera was constantly being wonky.

Notice the "I think" there in front of my opinions, because that's just what they are! Youtubers and posters ITT sometimes (repeatedly) present subjective opinions as facts and it's very tiring. Writing "I think" in front of your takes is both humbling for yourself and persuasive to others, so maybe give it a spin!

I would be surprised if anybody enjoyed the ulcerated tree spirit fights in tight corridors. I'm glad From has really calmed down on "giant loving enemy that moves around all over the place so you have no idea what attacks are coming when and god help you ifyou try and lock on" in this; and is also why those are my only actively disliked bosses. It almost feels like they included them as a nod/gently caress you to previous games. At least they're super easy: hug the body, hug the body, dodge teh grab, hug the body, run out of the explosion, hug the body.....

This is why I never bothered with Demon of Hatred, I aint got time for that.

Tarezax
Sep 12, 2009

MORT cancels dance: interrupted by MORT
I will say that it would be nice if more of the heal punish attacks were like Genichiro's in Sekiro, where he charges up a bow shot that takes just long enough that you can dodge out of the way after your sip animation finishes

vandalism
Aug 4, 2003
Elden ring owns

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life

vandalism posted:

Elden ring owns

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk

Edge,
Lord

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khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Mr. Crow posted:

I would be surprised if anybody enjoyed the ulcerated tree spirit fights in tight corridors. I'm glad From has really calmed down on "giant loving enemy that moves around all over the place so you have no idea what attacks are coming when and god help you ifyou try and lock on" in this; and is also why those are my only actively disliked bosses. It almost feels like they included them as a nod/gently caress you to previous games. At least they're super easy: hug the body, hug the body, dodge teh grab, hug the body, run out of the explosion, hug the body.....

This is why I never bothered with Demon of Hatred, I aint got time for that.

Demon of Hatred is honestly on basically the same level as something like the Tree Spirit when it comes to reading its attacks. I won't say its easy or anything but the boss is techically 'fair' in that regard, its just generally it really feels like a Dark Souls boss in the wrong game.

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