BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

Uh, or, maybe don't conflate race and DSD, because what you're doing here is minimizing the discrimination that DSD and trans individuals face. It is "explicitly" enforcing a sex and gender binary, and though I absolutely think WA maintains white supremacy, this is a pretty garbage example to hang that on.

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

Uh, or, maybe don't conflate race and DSD, because what you're doing here is minimizing the discrimination that DSD and trans individuals face. It is "explicitly" enforcing a sex and gender binary, and though I absolutely think WA maintains white supremacy, this is a pretty garbage example to hang that on.

VitalSigns posted:

VitalSigns posted:

Maybe I misunderstood you, it sounded like you were saying you could diagnose Semenya's level of insensitivity just by looking at pictures of her at sports events based on whether she looks like a "typical woman"

Not making general claims that people with higher sensitivity have beards and penises and stuff and are therefore more often raised as men (she wasn't)

Sorry if I misunderstood, it sounded really weird so I was just asking!

Timeless Appeal posted:

I think that the gender binary has indeed disproportionately impacted cis-Black women in diminishment of their gender. A lot of our standards of beauty and the expectations of what a woman should be are interwoven with whiteness and recent Western cultural trends.

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

Unless I’m misunderstanding what is being said, why can’t it be both?

It’s just a perfect example of how arbitrary rules are made by elites in a thing that can never be “fair” (sports) as a means to discriminate the already disenfranchised.

It’s personally my shortcut example to determine if someone is a piece of poo poo racist and transphobe, especially those that consider themselves on the liberal end of the spectrum.

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

Sorry, I'm not discounting intersectionality here, I imagine we all agree that someone like Semenya has to deal with more poo poo because she is DSD and black than DSD alone. White supremacy exists and always makes things worse. It's that other dominant black runners have not had to deal with this kind of total assault on their existence, and unremarkable trans athletes have to deal with it independent of their race. There is obvious racism in running, but there is a subset of powerful people with a philosophical objection to DSD or trans people competing at all.

Gentleman Baller posted:

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if this happened tbh.

In 1992 a woman, Zhang Shan, won a silver medal in a mixed sex shooting event. Women were banned from that event for the next Olympics. Couldn't have her taking the gold, you understand.

In 2016, trans man boxer, Patricio Manuel won his first and only professional boxing match. No boxer since has ever agreed to a match with him, for obvious sexist transphobic reasons.

It's less likely than those two examples above but you know, there's a trend here. I could see the competitors making it a thing.

VitalSigns posted:

I guess that depends on whether one of the IAAF officials making the rules saying that there's so much inbreeding in 'developing countries' that they have to keep a closer eye on sex disorders is a "total assault" or not but there's clearly more than just hatred of intersex or trans people going on here



Like I don't know what a "total assault" is but saying there's so much inbreeding outside of Europe that you gotta look out is pretty drat bad imo

E: the government of South Africa has also objected to how racist the IAAF and IOC are being, and I feel like the African National Congress probably has more experience with this kind of thing than white goons idk, I'm gonna lean a little on their side I hope that's okay

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny?

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny?

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny?

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny?

VitalSigns posted:

No.

My contention is that an IAAF official was justifying extra scrutiny for everyone from "developing countries" because they're supposedly full of inbreeding, so I guess I just disagree that this isn't also a clear example of racism.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

l o fuckin' l especially if anyone remotely British was involved

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny?

A big flaming stink posted:

if semanya was white, she would not be seen as transgressing against the western notion of femininity (because whiteness is foundational to this notion)

to a greater or lesser extent, everything about presenting as a woman in western culture is based in the aesthetics of whiteness

how many times have you heard the williams sisters or michelle obama called "mannish"?

PeterCat posted:

People had no problems calling Jarmila Kratochvilova "mannish." Or are Czechs not white in your world?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObikI1d8xPI

Ghost Leviathan posted:

One of the big reasons why intersectionality needs to be a thing is because it already certainly is for the bigots, they're basically all the same people and all their hatreds run together ultimately.

Fluffdaddy posted:

Eastern Bloc countries weren't capital W white until the wall fell, so yea.

Shes also juiced out of her mind, which was also a popular Eastern Bloc pasttime.

Jaxyon posted:

A great example of this is thread poster Internaut!

Who is already off probation despite posting seriously transphobic poo poo and also seriously racist poo poo

Speaking of racism have you read the posts by Internaut!?

woozy pawsies posted:

https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/

PeterCat posted:

People had no problems calling Jarmila Kratochvilova "mannish." Or are Czechs not white in your world?

PeterCat posted:

People had no problems calling Jarmila Kratochvilova "mannish." Or are Czechs not white in your world?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObikI1d8xPI

Just Chamber posted:

So trans woman is ok? Example sentence: "Trans women but not cis women" would be ok terminology?

Just Chamber posted:

So trans woman is ok? Example sentence: "Trans women but not cis women" would be ok terminology?

quote:

How to describe the fact that someone is transgender. Transgender should always be used as an adjective. For example, "Marisol is a transgender woman." If your audience needs clarification about what that phrase means, you can explain that "Marisol was designated male at birth, and began her transition 15 years ago." Avoid "Marisol was born a man." People are born babies and a doctor assigns a sex to an infant based on a quick look at the baby's external anatomy. A transgender person's gender identity is not determined by the sex they were assigned at birth. An oversimplification like "born a man" invalidates the current, authentic gender of the person you're speaking about and is considered disrespectful.

quote:

Transgender

Describes people whose gender identity does not match the sex they were identified as having at birth. Does not require what are known as sex reassignment or gender confirmation procedures. Identify people as transgender only if pertinent, and use the name by which they live publicly. The shorthand trans is acceptable on second reference and in headlines. ​​Do not use as a noun, such as referring to someone as a transgender, or use the term transgendered.

Examples:

Bernard is a transgender man. Christina is transgender.

She was the Grammy Awards' first trans woman trophy handler.

quote:

Transgender is an adjective (so modifying man or woman—as in transgender man, transgender woman) in Western cultures that refers to someone whose assigned sex at birth does not match their gender identity. AP allows the use of trans on second reference and in headlines. Do not use transgender as a noun or use the term transgendered.

Just Chamber posted:

So trans woman is ok? Example sentence: "Trans women but not cis women" would be ok terminology?

woozy pawsies posted:

this is old but ive seen you make this argument before about wilks. 1: wilks has different coefficients for male and female. the reason women can compete with men using wilks is because the wilks coefficient adjusts for them being weaker. 2: the guy who came up with it is a sex predator and wilks has been dropped by many and they use DOTS instead (still different for men and women).

and hormones matter a lot in lifting, you just cant control it (unless you are on gear), so no one worries about it cause why worry about something you cant control. and people on gear are way stronger than people not on it. do you even lift? does anyone here actually compete in sports???

TheSpamalope posted:

Trans women aren't biological women

Trans women and bio women should be allowed to compete but also trans men and bio men should be able to compete with the trans women and bio women and also peds should just be accepted so everybody can stop hiding them

Miss Broccoli posted:

Hey Koos, this is the exact example of the thing I dmd you about. Do you seriously expect this to be engaged with?

Miss Broccoli posted:

I'm a roman history dork; why would I not take the latin word.

Koos can you not see how incredibly tedious this is and how me and others who have spoken to you can instantly see what sort of person they are?

Miss Broccoli posted:

herstory was literally a competition lifter, friend.

woozy pawsies posted:

then you'd think they know wilks is calculated differently based off gender. it is not gender-neutral.

Miss Broccoli posted:

herstory was literally a competition lifter, friend.