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Bishyaler posted:Yes, and that middle ground is ineffectual actions like suing them and threatening to take away funding, otherwise known as treating the symptom. Liberals don't want to see fascists brought to justice, they want to see them temporarily inconvenienced. Squishy dog tax: https://twitter.com/wonderofscience/status/1506970360519962633?s=20&t=5GQypnZrme5galV91VE7gw
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Apr 13, 2022 17:45
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Sarcastr0 posted:So then martial law and arresting Texas officials is the only moral and antifascist position, here? I didn't think it was a controversial position to say "Yes, you should want people who steal children for the purposes of sexual indoctrination and/or abuse to be removed from power and arrested".
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Apr 13, 2022 17:49
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Sarcastr0 posted:So then martial law and arresting Texas officials is the only moral and antifascist position, here? This statement appears to closely align with arguing against the paradox of tolerance. In addition it ignores past precedents. Again, what do Dems and their allies value more: decorum or human rights? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 13, 2022 17:52
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:This statement appears to closely align with arguing against the paradox of tolerance. finally a true dichotomy! vvv good point, putting fascists in jail has always worked in the past. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 17:54
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Bishyaler posted:I didn't think it was a controversial position to say "Yes, you should want people who steal children for the purposes of sexual indoctrination and/or abuse to be removed from power and arrested". Unless they're jailed for life or given the death sentence after that also seems like a temporary inconvenience for fascists.
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Apr 13, 2022 17:56
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Sarcastr0 posted:What's your plan here? To have the national guard arrest Texas lawmakers? To just spread out across the State to intercept wrongful police action? Do you think using federal troops to support the Little Rock 9 was martial law or a bad thing to do? https://www.nps.gov/people/the-little-rock-nine.htm quote:The students arrived at Central alone on the first day. By prior arrangement, they gathered at the 16th Street entrance with several local ministers who accompanied them. Elizabeth Eckford arrived at the other end of the block by herself. She was met by a mob screaming obscenities and threats, chanting, “Two, four, six, eight, we ain’t gonna integrate!” quote:On September 24, 1957, President Dwight D. Eisenhower ordered units of the U.S. Army’s 101st Airborne Division -the “Screaming Eagles”- into Little Rock and federalized the Arkansas National Guard. In a televised speech delivered to the nation, President Eisenhower stated, “Mob rule cannot be allowed to override the decisions of the courts.”
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Apr 13, 2022 17:59
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Sharkie posted:Do you think using federal troops to support the Little Rock 9 was martial law or a bad thing to do? But I don't see how such a limited engagement could apply in this case. This isn't about nonfeasance as it was for school integration. For that you can just do the thing the state should have been doing in the places they should have been doing it. In the case of Texas we're talking malfeasance. Which seems to me a different kettle of fish to stop/prevent statewide.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:04
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RBA Starblade posted:Unless they're jailed for life or given the death sentence after that also seems like a temporary inconvenience for fascists. It says a lot about the lack of commitment liberals have to actually opposing fascism if you think "jailing fascists for life" or "death sentence for fascists" is a bridge-too-far gotcha. Bishyaler fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 18:06
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Bishyaler posted:It says a lot about the lack of commitment liberals have to actually opposing fascism if you think "jailing fascists for life" or "death sentence for fascists" is a bridge-too-far gotcha.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:12
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honestly that sounds like you guys think the leaders of these states will go willingly or be a push over to dislodge with force. If they fight back then we get civil war. and lets be honest I dont wanna see reconstruction 2.0
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Apr 13, 2022 18:12
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Bishyaler posted:It says a lot about the lack of commitment liberals have to actually opposing fascism if you think "jailing fascists for life" or "death sentence for fascists" is a bridge-too-far gotcha. RBA Starblade posted:I mean sure we could send the DC guard, but I mean a 49 (50 I guess?) v 1 would be what I really want to see. You're the one wanting a half measure left up to the courts here and an option for them to try again. I want an rear end blast.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:13
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Sarcastr0 posted:This is starting to look a lot like fasc them before they fasc you... ahh, you see, but I get to determine who a fascist is. it is a perfect plan! Ups_rail posted:honestly that sounds like you guys think the leaders of these states will go willingly or be a push over to dislodge with force. Technically Reconstruction 1 never finished, which is part of why we are in this mess in the first place.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:13
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"Biden is a piece of poo poo for not starting a civil war," god drat, this thread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 13, 2022 18:16
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:ahh, you see, but I get to determine who a fascist is. it is a perfect plan! The paradox of tolerance is indeed weird
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Apr 13, 2022 18:16
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Sarcastr0 posted:This is starting to look a lot like fasc them before they fasc you... The paradox of tolerance, again? This has been done to death. We just saw how it plays out in the trans sports thread, but please go on about how we can't be TOO mean to the fash or we are just as bad as they are.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:16
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Sarcastr0 posted:Of *course* I think that was a masterstroke. So we shouldn't do it now because it's malfeasance, not nonfeasance? I'm not seeing an argument to not try it again. Also he kept the federalized national guard there for a year but sure you can call that a "limited engagement" if you want. Or are you saying something along the lines of since it might not work, we shouldn't try? You surely know people were saying that back in 1957, too. Good thing Eisenhower didn't listen to them, right? Mellow Seas posted:"Biden is a piece of poo poo for not starting a civil war," god drat, this thread. Do you think there was a civil war in the fall of 1957? What on earth are you talking about?
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Apr 13, 2022 18:18
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e: double post!
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Apr 13, 2022 18:18
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If it becomes a civil war we should probably correctly blame the fash and not the president we said we had to vote for to keep the fash out
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Apr 13, 2022 18:20
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Mellow Seas posted:"Biden is a piece of poo poo for not starting a civil war," god drat, this thread. Democrats have been telling us how close we are to losing democracy, are they lying? So how exactly did you expect we should deal with a group of bad actors intent on establishing fascistic rule in the US? Is this the meme of a guy throwing a ballot in a box saying "you're done Hitler!" Are you planning on yelling loudly how it's against the rules when state police are dragging you from your home? At some point your plan has to be more robust than "vote hard and hope they never win".
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Apr 13, 2022 18:23
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Bishyaler posted:Democrats have been telling us how close we are to losing democracy, are they lying?
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Apr 13, 2022 18:25
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Sharkie posted:So we shouldn't do it now because it's malfeasance, not nonfeasance? I'm not seeing an argument to not try it again. Also he kept the federalized national guard there for a year but sure you can call that a "limited engagement" if you want. I think the ultimate issue we're all circling around here is 1. are we in a cold civil war? ( I think we are) 2. Will enforcing federal laws on abortion (that don't exist?) in states result in a hot civil war ( I think it would) The calculus many seem to be disagreeing on is number two. In many past cases of sending in the guard, there was a clear legal mandate. Because of a feckless Congress, we do not have a federal right to an abortion. What federal law would we be enforcing in Texas? I'm down for using any as an excuse to get it done, but I don't know which you would use. I think things are worse now than they were in the 60s as far as political polarization and the potential for large-scale violence seem to be ever-increasing. it's not a reason not to enforce laws, but I also don't think it is nearly as simple as many are making it out to be. especially if you actually want a good outcome for the long term.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:26
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Mellow Seas posted:Do you think Biden should invade Texas, with the military, triggering a war between the states? Do you really think that, Bishyaler? Oh hey I get to go the exaggerated and dumb counterpoint. Do you really think children should be stolen by the state of Texas and funneled into abuse? Why do you support allowing that to happen? Do you really think that, Mellow Seas?
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Apr 13, 2022 18:27
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Mellow Seas posted:Do you think Biden should invade Texas, with the military, triggering a war between the states? Do you really think that, Bishyaler? If you mean "invade" in the same sense that Eisenhower "invaded" Arkansas in 1957 then yes, I personally do.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:27
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Sharkie posted:So we shouldn't do it now because it's malfeasance, not nonfeasance? I'm not seeing an argument to not try it again. Also he kept the federalized national guard there for a year but sure you can call that a "limited engagement" if you want. We shouldn't do it because we can't implement it short of a long-term state-wide occupation. Which would absolutely mean civil war.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:29
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Gumball Gumption posted:Oh hey I get to go the exaggerated and dumb counterpoint. The military, under the direction of the Commander in Chief, is airlifting victims of state abuse to safe places, as the DOJ uses everything in its power to fight the law. Basically Joe Biden is doing everything possible, which is why it's now apparently necessary to criticize him for not doing things that are not possible, like using the fuckin' military in a hostile state to enforce the 14th amendment without triggering a war. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 18:30
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:ahh, you see, but I get to determine who a fascist is. it is a perfect plan! It is a perfect plan... if your plan was to sink to using conservatives' definition of fascism which is "any political violence I don't personally approve of". Fascism has a clear definition and "political violence against far-right extremists who are plotting terrorism" ain't it.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:32
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Mellow Seas posted:You don't have to pretend virtualboyCOLOR meant something other than what he wrote just because he's on your "side" and you "have to" agree with him, buddy. Read the fuckin' posts. Then don't stretch what people say into insane things and attack them for it. Read the posts. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 13, 2022 18:32
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Huh, there are more people in this thread than I expected who are strongly in favor of American military intervention.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:34
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Grooglon posted:Huh, there are more people in this thread than I expected who are strongly in favor of American military intervention. America will see us as liberators
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Apr 13, 2022 18:35
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Bishyaler posted:It is a perfect plan... if your plan was to sink to using conservatives' definition of fascism which is "any political violence I don't personally approve of". Fascism has a clear definition and "political violence against far-right extremists who are plotting terrorism" ain't it. Yes, the definition will for sure keep you safe from unjust persecution. it is why Vladimir Putin was struck dead by divine lightning when he applied the term nazi to the Ukrainians he was killing.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:35
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Grooglon posted:Huh, there are more people in this thread than I expected who are strongly in favor of American military intervention. what’s the Corsica of America?
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Apr 13, 2022 18:35
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Sarcastr0 posted:This is starting to look a lot like fasc them before they fasc you... You don't appear to know what fascism means. Perhaps you should read up on it some more before weighing in
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Apr 13, 2022 18:37
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Mellow Seas posted:Basically Joe Biden is doing everything possible Incorrect! In fact history shows he has other options which he is not using!  Imagine this but taking people to medical care provided by army and or federalized national guard hospitals. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 18:37
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Bishyaler posted:Democrats have been telling us how close we are to losing democracy, are they lying? People voted hard and the bad actors lost both chambers of congress and the executive. So much of this “death penalty to my political enemies” posturing is just misdirected anger at your own side for being feckless.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:37
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Crisis in the availability of infant formula, thanks to a couple large recalls:quote:Retailers are limiting purchases of baby formula, while customers are struggling to find it at all, amid a shortage tied to a recent recall of Similac and other brands produced by Abbott Nutrition. The story doesn't mention whether prices have gone up accordingly but I'd reckon this is the case. Any new parents here who know the answer? A positive to having homeowners' associations? Possibly, when they're precluding institutional investors from buying up homes & turning them into rental properties, a process that has flourished in Black communities, among others: quote:CHARLOTTE — Her 3-bedroom 2-bath house with vinyl siding had never attracted so many admirers. Every week, the mail brought more postcard offers: Sell now! Will buy as is! Everyone in the neighborhood was getting them. Biggest  ever on the response by vulture landlords:quote:Invitation Homes, one of several big firms that own houses in Potters Glen, called the rental restrictions “prejudicial, discriminatory, uninformed, and misaligned with the concept of fair housing.” The company said it was “disheartened by the trend of HOAs [homeowners associations] determining that renters are not welcome in their neighborhoods.”
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Apr 13, 2022 18:57
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TheDisreputableDog posted:People voted hard and the bad actors lost both chambers of congress and the executive. Are you trying to imply I'm a Republican? There have been multiple reports on how the GOP has damaged voting rights at the state level to the point where Dem majority in congress is no longer possible. So "vote hard" has expired as a viable course of action and your ability to resolve this situation to prevent one-party rule is on a ticking clock.
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Apr 13, 2022 19:03
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yes, the definition will for sure keep you safe from unjust persecution. it is why Vladimir Putin was struck dead by divine lightning when he applied the term nazi to the Ukrainians he was killing. I was hoping the people in this thread would stick to the actual definition instead of saying "well, nothing bad happens when murderous dictators misuse the term!".
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Apr 13, 2022 19:05
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Sharkie posted:If you mean "invade" in the same sense that Eisenhower "invaded" Arkansas in 1957 then yes, I personally do. 1957 was accomplishing an affirmative goal after a court order. What does the army do in this instance where the dispute is over a law potentially punishing someone in the future that they haven't done yet? And a case is currently going through the court, which is exactly what Eisenhower had to do first. Eisenhower had a court order to implement a specific goal. He didn't send the army down there to follow everyone around and keep an eye out for racism. Sharkie posted:Incorrect! In fact history shows he has other options which he is not using! Did you read the article that was copy and pasted or the 140 character tweet summary? Because they are literally doing that. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 19:06
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Sarcastr0 posted:This is starting to look a lot like fasc them before they fasc you... Fighting fascism is not fascism. I'm really sick of seeing this stupid take come up any time the Dems are criticized for not doing enough. If democracy and human rights are truly at stake as we are told so many times, then everything should be on the table to defend them. Should we have just let slaveholders keep owning people to avoid the Civil War?
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Apr 13, 2022 19:08
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Sharkie posted:Imagine this but taking people to medical care provided by army and or federalized national guard hospitals. And while they're there, the army can help you move those goalposts clear across the field. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 13, 2022 19:15
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