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Pilchenstein posted:Weird that you'd pick Marty to make this point and not one of the hundred interchangeable ghouls who are not only published to a much wider audience than Turd Rall, but also much more effective at getting their lovely message across. I imagine I'll go to my grave wondering what kind of clever rhetorical trick you pulled here lol It's not a rhetorical trick. If the claim is that all political cartoons are propaganda, it has to be justified for all political cartoons. And if you can't justify it, then you actually need to understand what the definition is that's being deployed.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:22
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the_steve posted:https://twitter.com/MattBors/status/1514282671064719364?t=OI3dTHdjt5upmm1x5a0PTQ&s=19 Anyone got that terrifying crab comic about the same subject?
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Apr 13, 2022 18:22
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Garrison levels of "absolutely the good guy here, for sure".VitalSigns posted:when that same government spends a gorillion dollars Xander77 fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 18:28
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Zelensky's apparently the same slightly below average height as Putin at 5'7". https://twitter.com/Mariana_Betsa/status/1514263463564132360 Russian media of Putin tends not to show him framed such that his relative height is clearly visible, though there are shots at international meetings.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:40
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Kaza42 posted:Wait until he finds out how much suffering and death capitalism has caused. I expect his next comic will be calling for the removal of Adam Smith from everything I mean if we're using "people invoked his name" to demonize someone, you'd think he'd be a lot more concerned about this Jesus fellow that people are not just allowed but expected to worship in the united states.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:40
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Karl Marx single-handedly murdered millions. His bulging muscles and glistening abs terrorized the globe for decades until he was finally laid low by Ronald Reagan in 1988 in ritual death combat.
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Apr 13, 2022 18:56
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Xander77 posted:Do you hang out with holocaust deniers a lot or... I don't actually have a differing explanation here. "Gorillion" is not a holocaust denier joke
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Apr 13, 2022 18:59
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Pants Donkey posted:Karl Marx single-handedly murdered millions. His bulging muscles and glistening abs terrorized the globe for decades until he was finally laid low by Ronald Reagan in 1988 in ritual death combat. thank god he didn't use two hands.
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Apr 13, 2022 19:00
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:expected to worship in the united states.  Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, agnostics, atheists, pagans, Wiccans, Native Americans, what the gently caress are you talking about?
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Apr 13, 2022 19:01
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Mm, what are the characters' names again? Should probably put them in the third panel somewhere.
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Apr 13, 2022 19:04
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D34THROW posted:
The fact that all those groups are treated like poo poo by American policymakers? "Under Allah" isn't on our loving money and we don't force our children to mention any Native American gods as part of a nationalistic pledge every day at school.
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Apr 13, 2022 19:09
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D34THROW posted:
you're not required to be a Christian in the US but Christian stuff is printed on dollar bills, mentioned in the pledge of allegiance, and good fuckin luck running for high office or even basic poo poo in the hellhole states if you don't at least pay lip service to big J even donald trump went around waving a bible; I don't think it's a contoversial statement that the US have a state religion despite whatever they claim on paper
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Apr 13, 2022 19:11
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Discendo Vox posted:It's not a rhetorical trick. If the claim is that all political cartoons are propaganda, it has to be justified for all political cartoons. And if you can't justify it, then you actually need to understand what the definition is that's being deployed. So yeah, if you could stop banging on about how the guy turning out badly drawn comics where Underground Zine Homer Simpson says "Invading Ukraine is cool!" is somehow more dangerous than the endless procession of racists and homophobes who are far more technically competent, published to a much wider audience and (in case you hadn't noticed) on the winning team in terms of getting their lovely policies enacted around the globe, that'd be grand mate.
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Apr 13, 2022 19:17
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But Marx wasn't...he was born in....aahhh my head
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Apr 13, 2022 19:29
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Pilchenstein posted:Of course it's a rhetorical trick lol, just like this is - you're trying to get me to argue that Marty Two Bulls is just as heinous as Ted Rall because you know that'd be an incredible reach and you'd easily be able to counter any argument I tried to make on that front. They're both trying to influence public opinion by disseminating information (or in Ted's case, misinformation) designed to promote a specific worldview though, so they're both propaganda. It's not a trick, it's holding you responsible for the claim Pilchenstein posted:Everything in this thread is straight up propaganda though. Your definition of propaganda differs from the one used by Hihoe and numerous others, because it speaks to the bad faith and distortive or deceptive intentions that distinguish Ted Rall. The definition you describe would apply to all persuasive mass media. It's not informative, it's just throwing flak for the underlying problems specific to Rall which are why other people are using other definitions of propaganda in the first place. This is not the first time this conversation has happened, nor the first time that equivocation about political cartoons has been used in the defense of bad faith. Pilchenstein posted:So yeah, if you could stop banging on about how the guy turning out badly drawn comics where Underground Zine Homer Simpson says "Invading Ukraine is cool!" is somehow more dangerous than the endless procession of racists and homophobes who are far more technically competent, published to a much wider audience and (in case you hadn't noticed) on the winning team in terms of getting their lovely policies enacted around the globe, that'd be grand mate. We've been over this before. Discendo Vox posted:Again, Rall is working for a state actor that has the explicit programmatic goal of spreading things it knows and believes are lies and disrupting civic discourse. None of your other examples in news media or elsewhere do that; they believe what they say and promote their own beliefs or accordant beliefs, even if they say it dishonestly, and they are not part of anything like a cohesive operation, and they do not possess the power of a state. Rall is not just an individual, and you are aware of this; he's an instrument of a broader state-backed apparatus made up of racists and homophobes, operating in bad faith, with the explicit methodology of disrupting civic discourse through equivocation. We do not have to pretend that he exists independent of his context just because it makes his messages more appealing to us. That should if anything be a reason to apply stronger criticism, and it's another critical difference between Rall and the likes of Ramirez. Unlike the majority of the catoonists in this thread, Rall's target ideological audience matches the general population of the forums. We're the mark. Epic High Five posted:But Marx wasn't...he was born in....aahhh my head The official quoted in the Tampa Bay Times said it was because Marx “invokes strong and painful memories of Soviet domination and oppression”, not because he was Russian. It's not 100% clear that the name was taken off the room because of the invasion or Russia at all, even though that's what an official claimed after the fact. The actual explanation may be a different brand of stupid; it turns out the Breitbart circuit of media, as well as a proxy for the Republican Party started attacking the room name using the general "Lefty college promotes communism" line of attack just before the name came down. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 19:31
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Epic High Five posted:But Marx wasn't...he was born in....aahhh my head Nonsense, this is an election year!
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Apr 13, 2022 19:32
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"You fool! You cancelled Marx for the wrong reason!"
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Apr 13, 2022 19:45
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Discendo Vox posted:The official quoted in the Tampa Bay Times said it was because Marx “invokes strong and painful memories of Soviet domination and oppression”, not because he was Russian. It's not 100% clear that the name was taken off the room because of the invasion or Russia at all, even though that's what an official claimed after the fact. The actual explanation may be a different brand of stupid; it turns out the Breitbart circuit of media, as well as a proxy for the Republican Party started attacking the room name using the general "Lefty college promotes communism" line of attack just before the name came down. This makes a lot more sense, shame they gave in to the crybaby circus but it's not actually surprising at all. Not sure who is being oppressed by the USSR anymore, but nobody who matters is gonna get mad at a move like this so probably they just did it to avoid a fight.
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Apr 13, 2022 19:47
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Epic High Five posted:This makes a lot more sense, shame they gave in to the crybaby circus but it's not actually surprising at all. Not sure who is being oppressed by the USSR anymore, but nobody who matters is gonna get mad at a move like this so probably they just did it to avoid a fight. An important lesson from it is how conservatives were able to win on both sides, since the university's response was reframed by cutting out the context (we attacked them for their communism) and supplanting it with a different one(wimpy cancel culture liberals don't know where Marx was from) to target a broader audience (including us!). It's not necessarily deliberate, but the more competent operators (and there are plenty of them among the conservatives) can indeed consistently set up situations like this where they can spin all responses. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 19:49
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 Guardian:  "Ben Jennings on the UK’s cost of living crisis – Britain’s soaring energy and food prices are pushing some families to choose between ‘eating and heating’" Telegraph:  Boris Johnson fined over 'partygate': How much he paid and what the law says about Covid fixed penalty notices Matt:  Independent:  Times:  Evening Standard:  What will Rishi Sunak do next? The Chancellor’s week from hell  EDIT: Winners of this year's Young Cartoonist of the Year announced!
Cloud Potato fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 19:57
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You could easily argue that 13b is going to save Ukrainian lives I mean if you love false dichotomys better to be homeless than tortured and killed, no? Despera fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 20:27
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 better than 90% of the cartoons posted here
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Apr 13, 2022 20:46
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e: not worth it
Somfin fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 20:54
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Discendo Vox posted:Your definition of propaganda differs from the one used by Hihoe
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Apr 13, 2022 21:13
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Pilchenstein posted:I'm using the dictionary definition of the word, I have no idea who Hihoe is and honestly don't care. Anyway, to save us both time: there is no technicality that you could win on about the definition of the word that will convince me that some dipshit spouting "You say Russia is bad but have you considered drones?" (during a point in time where people are so mad at Russia that "would nuclear armageddon really be as bad as we fear?" is a question multiple journalists have posed, no less) is having a more insidious effect on public discourse than the litany of chuds pumping out "LGBT people/teachers/the Democrats want to gently caress your children" (and etcetera) for people to read over breakfast. If your definition of propaganda includes basically anything that makes a political argument, then that's not a good or useful definition. And I don't know why you keep thumping this argument about who does more harm. It's a completely different discussion from who is propaganda or not.
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Apr 13, 2022 21:27
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I find the constant bickering about Ted Rall very exhausting, and also I think it's a little disturbing how much anger he seems to generate compared to the shitheads calling trans people pedophiles or whatever.
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Apr 13, 2022 21:36
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Dylan16807 posted:If your definition of propaganda includes basically anything that makes a political argument, then that's not a good or useful definition. Fister Roboto posted:I find the constant bickering about Ted Rall very exhausting, and also I think it's a little disturbing how much anger he seems to generate compared to the shitheads calling trans people pedophiles or whatever.
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Apr 13, 2022 21:52
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Angepain posted:
 Give this a Kelly nomination for Best Overall.
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Apr 13, 2022 23:39
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Guavanaut posted:
if someone needs a reason why this counts as a political cartoon i'm sure we can all come up with an incisive political commentary that the author definitely intended
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Apr 14, 2022 00:00
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Is that a clothes dryer next to a fridge 
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Apr 14, 2022 00:08
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Fister Roboto posted:I find the constant bickering about Ted Rall very exhausting, and also I think it's a little disturbing how much anger he seems to generate compared to the shitheads calling trans people pedophiles or whatever. Why might a lovely leftist cartoonist create more anger than lovely rightwing cartoonist on this forum? Its a :mystery:
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Apr 14, 2022 00:10
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Jay Rust posted:Is that a clothes dryer next to a fridge
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Apr 14, 2022 00:10
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Angepain posted:
agree and also this one that won from the older-entries category is really good and clever: 
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Apr 14, 2022 00:33
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Xander77 posted:
Whaaat Does "gorillion dollars" have some meaning I'm not aware of, I'm lost on this joke(?) E: Ah https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/six-gorillion quote:The term “Six Gorillion” or “Muh Six Gorillion” is an anti-Semitic reference associated primarily with the alt right segment of the white supremacist movement. It entered common use by anti-Semites and white supremacists in 2013 and has been increasingly popular thereafter. Well the joke number "gorillion" is much older than 2013, I guess Nazis ruined another good thing VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Apr 14, 2022 |
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Apr 14, 2022 00:34
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first we have to ask, what is the sausage in this instance? the "pork" of government spending? or just a representation of the bare essentials, the kind of basic food that the common person is becoming more concerned about obtaining in the post-Brexit, Covid-torn economy that is further starting to feel the further effect of the russia-ukraine conflict. and who is the person? i was struck by how the person attempting to get the sausage is themself dressed as a sausage - is this a reference to how people will attempt to "dress for success" and take on superficial trappings of wealth in hopes that will help their social standing? are we perhaps seeing a reference to the "food mascot", that most lowly of jobs, as a symbol of the exploited masses (c.f. "how tf am i an essential worker"), or is it something more sinister? We also have to consider the cat - perhaps a subject of sympathy due to their dependence on their human masters, or a mere comic symbol of sloth and gluttony (see Davis et al)? Personally I think the cat is clearly the "fat cats" of the capitalist oligarchy, trying to consume all resources possible for themselves. The sausage is clearly large enough to feed them both, but the cat will not be satisfied with sharing - it needs a monopoly, and perhaps more. I believe the sausage-person is merely how they are viewed from the cat's perspective - a jovial reference to the old cartoon trope of a character turning into a hunk of meat whenever their friend gets so hungry as to consider devouring them. Yes, once the cat is done with consuming the resources of the household - and indeed, that of the Earth - it will go after the common person. The person is aware of this horrible situation, regretting having "adopted" the cat - allowed it power in the capitalist system through passively avoiding resistance and conflict. The cat claims to care about the person, saying it knows it is supposed to be the friend of humanity according to the ideology of benevolent free market capitalism, but ultimately it cannot resist the urge to consume, that being all that it knows and all that it has been taught to do. The result of this battle is not shown - will the person prevail and get a corner of the food they deserve? Or will the cat take all the food for itself, and be allowed to destroy the very people it is ostensibly serving. They remain suspended in mid air, moments before conflict, as if the author is reminding us that the result of the battle is yet to be decided - but it must still be fought. Also we see in the background some additional references to current political events. The water tap seems to be running, a possible reference to the rising sea levels caused by global warming, normally a cause for alarm but shoved into the background by the desperate struggle to survive against the prevailing forces of neoliberalism. The washing machine next to the fridge references all the dirty laundry that this government has to deal with, and the frosty reception that british trade proposals are receiving in the international market. British humour is very sophisticated.
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Apr 14, 2022 00:37
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lmao that Ted Rall, noted super leftist ally and guy who once bragged about killing a homeless man, is making the "but what about our homeless vets" argument.
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Apr 14, 2022 00:50
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Angepain posted:British humour is very sophisticated. The liberal meanwhile clothes himself as the finished article of production and in doing so expects both solidarity and material reward for his performance, then immediately becomes hostile the moment that this is not reciprocated. "I should have stayed a classical market liberal and hated the worker" says the consumer dressed as produce, as soon as the Other expresses a material need for existence beyond the false paradigm of tolerance
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Apr 14, 2022 00:53
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 Pope:  Anthony Albanese and Greens leader Adam Bandt. Labor announces new health clinics plan (Canberra Times). Billionaire tax to fund Greens’ $7.5bn plan for Medicare to cover dental (Guardian) Rowe:  LNP (Liberal-National, they've combined in Queensland) MP George Christensen reneged on retiring at the next election, instead he's running in the (unwinnable) third Queensland senate spot for Pauline Hanson's One Nation. Pope 2:  MPs who lose an election even if in a different house for a different party get a resettlement payment which they wouldn't get if they just merely retire. Even if George Christensen loses in the federal election, he’ll be eligible for a six-figure payout (SBS). Lethbridge:  ‘So what?’: John Howard defends Anthony Albanese after campaign stumble (news.com.au). Howard has since backtracked on that since he's campaigning. Shakespeare:  I guess the joke is that journalists don't care about asking the second question. Knight:  'Google it, mate': Greens leader Adam Bandt criticises fact-checking question (SBS) Herbert:  Sydney Airport chaos continues as travellers, staff brace for busiest day in two years (ABC). With a commentary on the state of the federal election. Leak, Son of Leak:  Albanese grilled over ‘disingenuous’ connection to Hawke Government as he is accused of re-writing history (Sky News Australia). (It's also in the News Corp papers but they're all paywalled. Sky News in Australia is somewhere between Fox News and OAN).
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Apr 14, 2022 00:57
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 quote:PRETTY BIRD! SAY “FREE SPEECH!” Everybody! Give Musk all your Twitter stock so he can unban Trump!!
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Apr 14, 2022 01:21
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Pilchenstein posted:Weird that you'd pick Marty to make this point and not one of the hundred interchangeable ghouls who are not only published to a much wider audience than Turd Rall, but also much more effective at getting their lovely message across. I imagine I'll go to my grave wondering what kind of clever rhetorical trick you pulled here lol It's really quite the trick to make you uncomfortable about your stoned college freshman level of deep deep discourse. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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