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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Uh, or, maybe don't conflate race and DSD, because what you're doing here is minimizing the discrimination that DSD and trans individuals face. It is "explicitly" enforcing a sex and gender binary, and though I absolutely think WA maintains white supremacy, this is a pretty garbage example to hang that on. Unless I’m misunderstanding what is being said, why can’t it be both? It’s just a perfect example of how arbitrary rules are made by elites in a thing that can never be “fair” (sports) as a means to discriminate the already disenfranchised. It’s personally my shortcut example to determine if someone is a piece of poo poo racist and transphobe, especially those that consider themselves on the liberal end of the spectrum. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Apr 12, 2022 |
# ? Apr 12, 2022 14:02 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 01:48 |
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Uh, or, maybe don't conflate race and DSD, because what you're doing here is minimizing the discrimination that DSD and trans individuals face. It is "explicitly" enforcing a sex and gender binary, and though I absolutely think WA maintains white supremacy, this is a pretty garbage example to hang that on.
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 14:21 |
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VitalSigns posted:Maybe I misunderstood you, it sounded like you were saying you could diagnose Semenya's level of insensitivity just by looking at pictures of her at sports events based on whether she looks like a "typical woman" You can't accurately diagnose someone's level of AIS just by looking at them at a sporting event. It probably is a component of why they have a masculine or feminine appearance, but it's only one of many factors that cause a masculine or feminine appearance, so you can't disentangle it as a variable. The only way you can find the grade of AIS specifically is looking at someone's genitals.
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 15:43 |
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think that the gender binary has indeed disproportionately impacted cis-Black women in diminishment of their gender. A lot of our standards of beauty and the expectations of what a woman should be are interwoven with whiteness and recent Western cultural trends. virtualboyCOLOR posted:Unless I’m misunderstanding what is being said, why can’t it be both? Sorry, I'm not discounting intersectionality here, I imagine we all agree that someone like Semenya has to deal with more poo poo because she is DSD and black than DSD alone. White supremacy exists and always makes things worse. It's that other dominant black runners have not had to deal with this kind of total assault on their existence, and unremarkable trans athletes have to deal with it independent of their race. There is obvious racism in running, but there is a subset of powerful people with a philosophical objection to DSD or trans people competing at all.
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 16:21 |
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Sorry, I'm not discounting intersectionality here, I imagine we all agree that someone like Semenya has to deal with more poo poo because she is DSD and black than DSD alone. White supremacy exists and always makes things worse. It's that other dominant black runners have not had to deal with this kind of total assault on their existence, and unremarkable trans athletes have to deal with it independent of their race. There is obvious racism in running, but there is a subset of powerful people with a philosophical objection to DSD or trans people competing at all. I guess that depends on whether one of the IAAF officials making the rules saying that there's so much inbreeding in 'developing countries' that they have to keep a closer eye on sex disorders is a "total assault" or not but there's clearly more than just hatred of intersex or trans people going on here Like I don't know what a "total assault" is but saying there's so much inbreeding outside of Europe that you gotta look out is pretty drat bad imo E: the government of South Africa has also objected to how racist the IAAF and IOC are being, and I feel like the African National Congress probably has more experience with this kind of thing than white goons idk, I'm gonna lean a little on their side I hope that's okay VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Apr 12, 2022 |
# ? Apr 12, 2022 16:30 |
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Gentleman Baller posted:Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if this happened tbh. goddamn
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 16:39 |
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VitalSigns posted:I guess that depends on whether one of the IAAF officials making the rules saying that there's so much inbreeding in 'developing countries' that they have to keep a closer eye on sex disorders is a "total assault" or not but there's clearly more than just hatred of intersex or trans people going on here So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny?
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 16:40 |
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny? There's a long and storied history of medical related demagoguery when it comes to black women.
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 16:45 |
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny? No. My contention is that an IAAF official was justifying extra scrutiny for everyone from "developing countries" because they're supposedly full of inbreeding, so I guess I just disagree that this isn't also a clear example of racism.
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 16:52 |
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny? Less likely, though not 100%, yes. There is a component of racism here as well.
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 16:52 |
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny? Absolutely. Her medical information would have not leaked if she was a white person from a European or North American country.
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 19:05 |
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One of the big reasons why intersectionality needs to be a thing is because it already certainly is for the bigots, they're basically all the same people and all their hatreds run together ultimately.VitalSigns posted:No. l o fuckin' l especially if anyone remotely British was involved
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 19:18 |
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Ghost Leviathan posted:
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 19:47 |
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny? if semanya was white, she would not be seen as transgressing against the western notion of femininity (because whiteness is foundational to this notion) to a greater or lesser extent, everything about presenting as a woman in western culture is based in the aesthetics of whiteness how many times have you heard the williams sisters or michelle obama called "mannish"?
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 21:43 |
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A big flaming stink posted:if semanya was white, she would not be seen as transgressing against the western notion of femininity (because whiteness is foundational to this notion) People had no problems calling Jarmila Kratochvilova "mannish." Or are Czechs not white in your world? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObikI1d8xPI
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 22:52 |
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PeterCat posted:People had no problems calling Jarmila Kratochvilova "mannish." Or are Czechs not white in your world? Eastern Bloc countries weren't capital W white until the wall fell, so yea. Shes also juiced out of her mind, which was also a popular Eastern Bloc pasttime.
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# ? Apr 12, 2022 22:59 |
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Ghost Leviathan posted:One of the big reasons why intersectionality needs to be a thing is because it already certainly is for the bigots, they're basically all the same people and all their hatreds run together ultimately. A great example of this is thread poster Internaut! Who is already off probation despite posting seriously transphobic poo poo and also seriously racist poo poo Fluffdaddy posted:Eastern Bloc countries weren't capital W white until the wall fell, so yea. Speaking of racism have you read the posts by Internaut!? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Apr 13, 2022 00:02 |
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Jaxyon posted:A great example of this is thread poster Internaut! Actually the real problem was his poor discussion practices, which is hardly more than a 3 day offense, isn't it Incidentally this article was really interesting and everyone should at least try and read it woozy pawsies posted:https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/
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# ? Apr 13, 2022 00:13 |
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PeterCat posted:People had no problems calling Jarmila Kratochvilova "mannish." Or are Czechs not white in your world? do you seriously dispute that black women are systemically denied their womanhood by society at large, especially if they choose to eschew traditional white presentations of femininity (the hair stuff etc)
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# ? Apr 13, 2022 00:53 |
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PeterCat posted:People had no problems calling Jarmila Kratochvilova "mannish." Or are Czechs not white in your world? That's a load of steroids right there goddamn
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# ? Apr 13, 2022 12:42 |
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i think that everyone posting "no" or some variation of in this thread who also posts "transwoman" or "biological male" or "transgendered" should be threadbanned until they have even a cursory knowledge of trans issues at the minimum; in several cases banned for out and out transphobia OP Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Apr 14, 2022 |
# ? Apr 14, 2022 14:35 |
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if you can't get the most basic of terminology right, even after being told what you are doing perpetuates harm, you are just posting to poo poo on the minority you have a varying amount of discomfort and hate for. You aren't here to discuss the issues or the science, you're just here to be hateful. E: if you say yes and also use these terms please just stop. If you can't even get the most basic of things right - the base terminology - then you really have no business in talking about whether or not we deserve rights. I am loathe to compare gender to race but theres a reason you say person of colour instead of coloured. theres a reason you say black man and not blackman. the grammar matters and is very important. golly gosh. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Apr 14, 2022 |
# ? Apr 14, 2022 14:37 |
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So trans woman is ok? Example sentence: "Trans women but not cis women" would be ok terminology?
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# ? Apr 14, 2022 21:45 |
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Just Chamber posted:So trans woman is ok? Example sentence: "Trans women but not cis women" would be ok terminology? Yes, I believe trans woman is preferred over transwoman because the person is still a woman and trans is only a modifier.
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# ? Apr 14, 2022 21:56 |
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Just Chamber posted:So trans woman is ok? Example sentence: "Trans women but not cis women" would be ok terminology? There is no one overarching organization that decides these things, but GLAAD and AP style guides are useful here: https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender quote:How to describe the fact that someone is transgender. Transgender should always be used as an adjective. For example, "Marisol is a transgender woman." If your audience needs clarification about what that phrase means, you can explain that "Marisol was designated male at birth, and began her transition 15 years ago." Avoid "Marisol was born a man." People are born babies and a doctor assigns a sex to an infant based on a quick look at the baby's external anatomy. A transgender person's gender identity is not determined by the sex they were assigned at birth. An oversimplification like "born a man" invalidates the current, authentic gender of the person you're speaking about and is considered disrespectful. https://www.prnewsonline.com/ap-style-diversity-equity-inclusion/ quote:Transgender https://diversity.uiowa.edu/resources/dei-style-guide/style-guide-gender quote:Transgender is an adjective (so modifying man or woman—as in transgender man, transgender woman) in Western cultures that refers to someone whose assigned sex at birth does not match their gender identity. AP allows the use of trans on second reference and in headlines. Do not use transgender as a noun or use the term transgendered. PP lists some outdated terms and why https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/transgender/transgender-identity-terms-and-labels As always, if a member of a group tells you to use a different term, you should listen to them. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Apr 14, 2022 |
# ? Apr 14, 2022 21:59 |
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Just Chamber posted:So trans woman is ok? Example sentence: "Trans women but not cis women" would be ok terminology? yes absolutely! It's an adjective, like "tall woman" or "florida man"
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# ? Apr 14, 2022 23:28 |
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Florida'd Man
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# ? Apr 15, 2022 01:06 |
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woozy pawsies posted:this is old but ive seen you make this argument before about wilks. 1: wilks has different coefficients for male and female. the reason women can compete with men using wilks is because the wilks coefficient adjusts for them being weaker. 2: the guy who came up with it is a sex predator and wilks has been dropped by many and they use DOTS instead (still different for men and women). herstory was literally a competition lifter, friend.
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# ? Apr 15, 2022 04:34 |
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Trans women aren't biological women Trans women and bio women should be allowed to compete but also trans men and bio men should be able to compete with the trans women and bio women and also peds should just be accepted so everybody can stop hiding them
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# ? Apr 15, 2022 04:49 |
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Also trans just sounds dumb we should give ita cool name like uhh maybe morphed
TheSpamalope fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Apr 15, 2022 |
# ? Apr 15, 2022 04:50 |
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He's not rick anymore he's morphin into stella. He's a mighty morphin gender changer (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Apr 15, 2022 04:53 |
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TheSpamalope posted:Trans women aren't biological women Hey Koos, this is the exact example of the thing I dmd you about. Do you seriously expect this to be engaged with? If you actually think this is not creating an overtly hostile atmosphere or is a teachable moment, well, To show good faith: Spamalope please tell me exactly how my biology did not make me a woman. Do you think I was not born trans? Please detail how I am not on the female peak of the sexual dimorphism spectrum with my lack of testes and slow release estrogen implants. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Apr 15, 2022 |
# ? Apr 15, 2022 05:01 |
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Miss Broccoli posted:Hey Koos, this is the exact example of the thing I dmd you about. Do you seriously expect this to be engaged with? You seriously tryin to say morph isn't cooler than trans? Just lmso
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# ? Apr 15, 2022 05:03 |
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I'm a roman history dork; why would I not take the latin word. Koos can you not see how incredibly tedious this is and how me and others who have spoken to you can instantly see what sort of person they are?
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# ? Apr 15, 2022 05:06 |
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Animals should be allowed too it's bullshit they can't I'm pretty sure theyd kick are asses at lots of stuff
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# ? Apr 15, 2022 05:08 |
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Miss Broccoli posted:I'm a roman history dork; why would I not take the latin word. They're on a placeholder while further action is processed (requires admin approval for anything more than 24 hours).
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# ? Apr 15, 2022 05:51 |
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Thank you
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# ? Apr 15, 2022 06:35 |
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Miss Broccoli posted:herstory was literally a competition lifter, friend. then you'd think they know wilks is calculated differently based off gender. it is not gender-neutral.
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# ? Apr 15, 2022 07:51 |
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woozy pawsies posted:then you'd think they know wilks is calculated differently based off gender. it is not gender-neutral. for instance, if i take what looks like to be the highest total for a female lifter, 1479.3lbs @ 311.4lbs bodyweight, they get a wilks score of 520.95 (world class, duh). switch the calculation to male and they get 374.47 (mediocre score).
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# ? Apr 15, 2022 08:00 |
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Miss Broccoli posted:herstory was literally a competition lifter, friend. i didn't do powerlifting competitively and though i got decently strong by strength sport standards, woozy afaik is both much more knowledgeable and certainly more up to date in his knowledge than me. i was mostly paraphrasing some greg nuckols articles wrt overall role of hormones in strength development and muscle growth. Also i have a major personal bias against people reducing athletic performance to hormone use and imo a lot of the yelling about trans athletes seems to come from a similar place of people making arguments that just have no connection to the things that actually lead to athletes performing well for long enough periods of time to actually become dominant in a sport. I think the hormone focus gets especially bizarre when the subject is efforts to ban trans kids from youth sports. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Apr 15, 2022 |
# ? Apr 15, 2022 08:37 |