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heres an interview with a FtM bodybuilder for anyone interested, they go over some of the stuff discussed here, but overall its bodybuilding-centric https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35jKmAdwaV8
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Apr 15, 2022 20:09
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woozy pawsies posted:except you should probably read the full text. That's right. Most of the data requires some inferences from non-athletes, and there's no large-scale truly empirical study, but as one of your quotes says there the sparse data we do have on athletes matches the non-athletes and the overall findings are still strong.
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Apr 15, 2022 20:16
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:To be scientifically conservative here, these are reviews of measurements of physiological variables, not sport performance, and the studies included are in broad populations, not athletes. It is entirely possible still that in the disciplines with a ~10-15% cis male/female performance gap, that this is entirely made up for by transitioning. Here's a popular article about Joanna Harper and her work on this re: running. Her own experience is that she went from a sub-elite male to a sub-elite woman at about the same percentile when she transitioned, and her work has broadly borne that out. She is an IOC expert. Strength sports are incredibly niche, and also attract males way more than females. I can't find it quickly, but I'm pretty sure Nuckols has done some work where he accounted for the LBM difference in strength athletes and it narrowed the gap between the sexes by a lot. I personally think one of the biggest factors in the gap is the talent pool -- hell, looking at just the men divisions in strength sports (outside of weightlifting), theres been a huge jump in the average amount of weight lifted. We probably aren't seeing the best people competing. Anyway, heres another Nuckols article that is sorta related https://www.strongerbyscience.com/gender-differences-in-training-and-diet/
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Apr 15, 2022 20:27
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Dog King posted:That's right. Most of the data requires some inferences from non-athletes, and there's no large-scale truly empirical study, but as one of your quotes says there the sparse data we do have on athletes matches the non-athletes and the overall findings are still strong. that study had people running like 10 minute miles and doing 30-55 pushups. Definitely more athletic than general population, but like, top level athletes? nah.
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Apr 15, 2022 20:33
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Dog King posted:No you're good, I hadn't posted it in the thread before because it's doesn't matter for the point I'm making. Here are the two most recent reviews of I know of: I think it's important that we be careful about saying stuff like "data shows mtf athletes have an advantage". That's strong language for something without strong support, and the statement 'mtf athletes have an inherent advantage' is used to harm trans people by arguing for their exclusion. I don't think this data supports what you said.
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Apr 15, 2022 21:47
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empty whippet box posted:I think it's important that we be careful about saying stuff like "data shows mtf athletes have an advantage". That's strong language for something without strong support, and the statement 'mtf athletes have an inherent advantage' is used to harm trans people by arguing for their exclusion. I don't think this data supports what you said. That's fair that I expressed it too strongly. It would be better to say "overall, the data shows that being trans is likely to give female athletes an advantage, though there aren't enough of them to say this with empirical certainty."
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Apr 15, 2022 21:59
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Let's check in on how this issue is being addressed in the real world. https://twitter.com/Nico_Lang/status/1514730331785494547 oh.
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Apr 15, 2022 22:13
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:There is no accurate indirect way of measuring muscle fiber type, you have to go in and take a chunk out. It's probably only scalable at the world elite level, certainly not for collegiate athletics. VO2Max is more predictive for distance events than either of those, but also requires laboratory measurement. And these are variables that change over time and with training, so they have to be regularly assessed. None of those other measurements you provided actually have predictive value in those disciplines, to my knowledge, though I'm only an expert in physiology for 5km+ events. I want to ask why you feel the need to continue to refer to transgender women as biological men. Particularly after being (indirectly) called on it. In addition to this you seem to ignore all the evidence pointed your way about how in a huge, majority even, number of sports trans people don't have meaningfully unfair advantages that are impossible for their cis counterparts to achieve. Do you have an ulterior motive here? It seems that you just don't like trans women in particular. It seems that you choose not to engage with any evidence to the contrary and want to hyperfocus down in on anything that will give you a foothold for why trans women in particular should not be allowed. Why are you doing this. Are transgender women women, just like cisgender women are, brake for moose? Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 02:35
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quote:Are transgender women women, just like cisgender women are, brake for moose? I do not think that anyone who refuses to answer this should get a seat at this table. If you can't answer this simple question, it begs the question of why not. Even if your answer is a no, thats still an answer.
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Apr 16, 2022 02:40
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Miss Broccoli posted:I want to ask why you feel the need to continue to refer to transgender women as biological men. Particularly after being (indirectly) called on it. In addition to this you seem to ignore all the evidence pointed your way about how in a huge, majority even, number of sports trans people don't have meaningfully unfair advantages that are impossible for their cis counterparts to achieve. I used the term "biological men" precisely once in this thread and I was referring to literally men - biological men who identify and compete as male. Slow the gently caress down. anyway, Miss Broccoli posted:Are transgender women women, just like cisgender women are, brake for moose? Yes, obviously.
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Apr 16, 2022 02:49
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Miss Broccoli posted:I do not think that anyone who refuses to answer this should get a seat at this table. If you can't answer this simple question, it begs the question of why not. Even if your answer is a no, thats still an answer. well, they're not cis women
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Apr 16, 2022 02:50
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mycophobia posted:well, they're not cis women Are trans women also women like cis women are women. BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I used the term "biological men" precisely once in this thread and I was referring to literally men - biological men who identify and compete as male. Slow the gently caress down. Then perhaps you should use the correct terminology instead of the dogwhistle. Cisgender men.
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Apr 16, 2022 03:23
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Miss Broccoli posted:Are trans women also women like cis women are women. what does that mean?
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Apr 16, 2022 03:23
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mycophobia posted:what does that mean? It's an incredibly straightforward question. I can't simplify it any further. Are trans women, women? If you can't answer that how can you hope to participate in good faith in this thread?
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Apr 16, 2022 03:25
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Miss Broccoli posted:It's an incredibly straightforward question. I can't simplify it any further. Are trans women, women? If you can't answer that how can you hope to participate in good faith in this thread? the best i can imagine what people mean when they say "trans women are women" is that trans women should be treated the same as cis women. but maybe you mean something else, so I asked
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Apr 16, 2022 03:29
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mycophobia posted:the best i can imagine what people mean when they say "trans women are women" is that trans women should be treated the same as cis women. but maybe you mean something else, so I asked Theres a difference between treating someone to their face as though they are a woman and beleiving them to be a woman. Its a question of whether you see trans as an adjective on the same level as "tall" or "short" or "fat" or "skinny" where all of those words do not place women in a seperate category when you put them in front of the word "woman". The same goes for men here too.
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Apr 16, 2022 03:36
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i think ~just asking questions~ about trans women should be harshly punished but i guess that's why i'm not a mod
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Apr 16, 2022 03:42
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Miss Broccoli posted:Theres a difference between treating someone to their face as though they are a woman and beleiving them to be a woman. sure, i can agree with that. what does this difference consist in on the part of the person interacting with the woman? quote:Its a question of whether you see trans as an adjective on the same level as "tall" or "short" or "fat" or "skinny" where all of those words do not place women in a seperate category when you put them in front of the word "woman". what does the qualifier trans mean?
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Apr 16, 2022 03:49
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mycophobia posted:sure, i can agree with that. what does this difference consist in on the part of the person interacting with the woman? that they are transgender. like that the qualifier tall means they are tall. Does this give you enough yet? It's not a trick question. It's curious that you can't answer the very simple question of are transgedner women women
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Apr 16, 2022 03:53
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Miss Broccoli posted:that they are transgender. like that the qualifier tall means they are tall. there's something ontological to get to the bottom of here and we haven't yet and it's kind of why trans discourse on the internet loving sucks, please humor me and read my post carefully
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Apr 16, 2022 03:57
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Theres no deep question here and the fact that you seem to think there is indicates that you think that trans women are not women like cisgender women are women. It indicates that you seem to think that these two subgroups have a different relationship to the main group of women. Is this inaccurate? That you seem to be treating this as some sorta gotcha is very telling. Please just answer the question: Are transgender women women?
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Apr 16, 2022 04:03
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Miss Broccoli, please remember that we have a rule of assuming good faith, and this includes the assumption that other posters aren't hiding their views. This is both to create an environment of trust, and because the deep personal feelings of pseudonymous SA posters are not a subject with broad applicability in the world. If you have strong reason to believe someone is acting in bad faith, to the point where you don't feel comfortable or productive engaging them, you can report them.
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Apr 16, 2022 04:09
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And if you still can't and insist on finding some deaper metaphysical truth, maybe just explain it instead of playing this game of cat and mouse. If you can't be forthcoming with your views, why not?Koos Group posted:Miss Broccoli, please remember that we have a rule of assuming good faith, and this includes the assumption that other posters aren't hiding their views. This is both to create an environment of trust, and because the deep personal feelings of pseudonymous SA posters are not a subject with broad applicability in the world. If you have strong reason to believe someone is acting in bad faith, to the point where you don't feel comfortable or productive engaging them, you can report them. We hit post at the same time. I'll leave the post up; but sure.
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Apr 16, 2022 04:09
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Miss Broccoli posted:Theres no deep question here and the fact that you seem to think there is indicates that you think that trans women are not women like cisgender women are women. It indicates that you seem to think that these two subgroups have a different relationship to the main group of women. Is this inaccurate? That you seem to be treating this as some sorta gotcha is very telling. i'm trying to understand what the question really means. the subgroups of cis women and trans women would have to have some different relationship to the main group of women, right? otherwise why the distinctions? what does it mean to be a woman irrespective of being cis or trans? the question you're insisting on, currently, means nothing to me
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Apr 16, 2022 04:29
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mycophobia posted:i'm trying to understand what the question really means. the subgroups of cis women and trans women would have to have some different relationship to the main group of women, right? otherwise why the distinctions? what does it mean to be a woman irrespective of being cis or trans? the question you're insisting on, currently, means nothing to me A woman is any person who considers themselves to be a woman. A man is any person who considers themselves to be a man.
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Apr 16, 2022 04:56
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empty whippet box posted:A woman is any person who considers themselves to be a woman. A man is any person who considers themselves to be a man. okay, what does it mean to consider yourself to be a woman or a man?
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Apr 16, 2022 05:10
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I am curious why that matters. Why are you asking this? Do you want to have a discussion about the nebulous topic of What Is A Gender? Do you want to have a philosophical discussion on what it means to be a woman? Or a man? Maybe you can begin with defining what you are actually asking here. It feels like you are dancing around a point and trying to ask leading questions to get there. Can we not do the tedious dance please. What is the base question you are asking before you can answer the very simple and straightforward question of Are Trans Women Women. What is your end goal I do not understand Koos why we need to asume this person is acting in good faith when they can not answer something so simple. Why do we need to have this tedious back and forth before we can start asking if this person is a transphobe or not. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 05:27
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A woman is a human being whose gender identity matches the social and culturally constructed identity of woman. We are a social species and fit ourselves into social groups. If that is not concrete enough for you I challenge you to do something far more simple and define a chair in a way that captures every single chair to the exclusion of all non chair objects. This is a stupid tediuous game of verbal cat and mouse. Are you a transphobe. Are transgender women women. Why can you not answer that question. The question is not meaningless and if you think it is you need to explain in clear terms why it is meaningless before asking us to continue with this aimless back and forth. If you cant answer why you think the question is meaningless, and you can't answer it, it really just leaves everyone else in the room to assume you think transgender people are their AGAB. Koos, please exlain to me how it does not foster a hostile atmosphere to transgender individuals to entertain these discussions. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 05:35
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they kinda have a point, you are the only person delieanating a difference between cis women and trans women here
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Apr 16, 2022 05:37
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it's probably worth stepping back from the thread if you want to tie yourself into verbal knots to derail the thread from the original discussion. nobody here is debating if trans women are women, but you keep engaging people on that point.
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Apr 16, 2022 05:42
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Minera posted:they kinda have a point, you are the only person delieanating a difference between cis women and trans women here me? I'm a trans woman, I am a woman like all the women I know are Minera posted:it's probably worth stepping back from the thread if you want to tie yourself into verbal knots to derail the thread from the original discussion. nobody here is debating if trans women are women, but you keep engaging people on that point. If this is aimed at me also; if someone disagrees that transgender women are even women it's a forgone conclusion that they will not want trans women in a category for women. This is a thread where a 3 accounts have been perma'd and a number of individuals have been punished for outright bigotry. You have a number of individuals on all sides who can't even get the base terminology around transgender people right; how is there any hope of a quality discussion if people can't even not use dehumanising language to describe a very marginalised group of people. If that first post was not meant to be aimed at me I apologise, but the second one seems to be which makes me wonder if the first is? To be very clear: The correct answer to are trans women are women is yes.
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Apr 16, 2022 05:57
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Miss Broccoli posted:If this is aimed at me also; if someone disagrees that transgender women are even women it's a forgone conclusion that they will not want trans women in a category for women. This is a thread where a 3 accounts have been perma'd and a number of individuals have been punished for outright bigotry. okay...? so the bigots were dealt with, you're lashing out and derailing the thread from being about trans athletes to being about trans women. it's a bad look, sis. quote:You have a number of individuals on all sides who can't even get the base terminology around transgender people right; how is there any hope of a quality discussion if people can't even not use dehumanising language to describe a very marginalised group of people. You're lashing out at people talking about *actual men* and conflating all trans people as being trans women. You need to step back from posting and relax and realize that not everyone is your enemy. I'm a trans woman too. Relax.
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Apr 16, 2022 06:08
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Miss Broccoli posted:A woman is a human being whose gender identity matches the social and culturally constructed identity of woman. We are a social species and fit ourselves into social groups. If that is not concrete enough for you I challenge you to do something far more simple and define a chair in a way that captures every single chair to the exclusion of all non chair objects. Myco appears to be treating the matter philosophically. Nothing they've said indicates any hostility toward anyone. I'm sympathetic to the posters who have pointed out that the central subject of the thread has a widely agreed-upon answer, and isn't likely to bear fruit with discussion, so I don't see anything wrong with anyone going off on tangents.
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Apr 16, 2022 06:16
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fwiw im done talking about it lol
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Apr 16, 2022 06:16
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mycophobia posted:okay, what does it mean to consider yourself to be a woman or a man? I'm not sure what to do with this question. It is a very straightforward statement which needs no further explanation.
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Apr 16, 2022 06:17
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Minera posted:okay...? so the bigots were dealt with, you're lashing out and derailing the thread from being about trans athletes to being about trans women. it's a bad look, sis. I am not at all conflating all transgender isses with trans women. I am being deliberate with my question. You will note that specifically trans women has been what most of the discussion ITT is about. You will also note that nobody making this topic so big gives a poo poo about the trans man who competed alongside Lia and even beat her in some events, but golly gosh will they lose it about Lia. Can you name that trans man? I bet you know Lia's last name though. If you do know his name - do you see the point I'm making here? Do you think anything close to half the people so invested in Lia and whether or not she and other trans people deserve to compete could name the trans man who beats her? In this discussion topic "mediocre biological men" is a huge dogwhistle. This is what people insist on refering to athletes like Lia with. Do you not see the issue with people using inaccurate terminology here, especially when it overlaps with hateful speech? Do you seriously fail to understand how in a topic of minority issues, critising a member of said minority asking that the dehumanising language cease, is the true bad look? Why come down on me and not the individual who thinks it's appropriate to continuously just ask questions in response to something so base and banal as "are transgender women women". Again, this is a deliberate choice of question over other similar questions. Do you think its not sus that the answer to that question is "well what even is a woman" instead of "yes". Do you think that might indicate a very clear conflict of interest? Koos Group posted:Myco appears to be treating the matter philosophically. Nothing they've said indicates any hostility toward anyone. I'm sympathetic to the posters who have pointed out that the central subject of the thread has a widely agreed-upon answer, and isn't likely to bear fruit with discussion, so I don't see anything wrong with anyone going off on tangents. Do you not see an issue that so far all they have managed to do is continue to Just Ask Questions when faced with something that should be a fundamental agreed on truth before even getting to the topic of the thread? They are yet to answer what they are getting at, they are yet to make an actual point, all they have done is ask questions. By definition, sealioning.
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Apr 16, 2022 06:43
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sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
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Apr 16, 2022 07:03
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Minera posted:sometimes a cigar is just a cigar this ain't it chief
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Apr 16, 2022 07:34
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Are trans women women is a pretty easy question to answer; the answer is: Yes
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Apr 16, 2022 07:44
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Very important to bring postmodernism into a debate about sports inclusion and physiology. What is a chair? Does a chair have chairness? Does red have a priori redness? What is truth?
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Apr 16, 2022 08:23
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