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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I was just surprised how many people came out pro death penalty. I am supportive of a death penalty in theory, but not in practice. There are clearly people in this world who commit crimes so heinous that they deserve to die for them, in my view. People who torture and exploit children, or like that guy in Cleveland or wherever who kidnapped and imprisoned multiple women in his basement for decades, stuff like that. Maybe it's my Biblical upbringing that still bleeds through a little bit now and again, but I don't have a problem accepting the idea that there are some truly wicked people who do monstrous things and thus need to be punished by removing them from Earth. What I sure as poo poo don't support is putting the power of life and death into the hands of our (big Our, humanity as a whole Our) justice systems. Wherever the death penalty exists innocent people are put to death. 100%. You can free a wrongfully imprisoned person, even if they were wrongfully imprisoned for years and years and years. You can't bring a wrongfully executed person back to life. That's as simple as it gets, for me. I'd rather lock the monstrous people up for life than risk a single innocent person lose their life.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:56
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The proximity of the assertions about “basically every elected official in both parties qualifies as a fascist because fascist enablers are no different than fascists themselves” and “fascists should be put to death” is pretty 👀 How does the idealized version of consequences and societal improvement play out for people that hold these views? I assume people aren’t actually advocating for a Qanon style “our people take control over government and then host televised public executions of every corrupt politician, which is all of them.” and instead there is just some wide generalization going on. But I am curious on what a positive outcome looks like for some of you.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:17
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LegendaryFrog posted:The proximity of the assertions about “basically every elected official in both parties qualifies as a fascist because fascist enablers are no different than fascists themselves” and “fascists should be put to death” is pretty 👀 Leftist generally advocate for revolution, yes. And it isn't hard to make the argument that both parties are fascist when they are letting white refugees in but stopping everyone else, funding racial purity police who perform sterilizations without consent, running concentration camps for brown people, run drone terror programs against muslim majority countries, organize coups in socialist countries, and arm fascist groups overseas.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:24
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LegendaryFrog posted:The proximity of the assertions about “basically every elected official in both parties qualifies as a fascist because fascist enablers are no different than fascists themselves” and “fascists should be put to death” is pretty 👀 We stop throwing immigrants into camps for the crime of being, according to those in power, inherently diseased and therefore undeserving of civil rights, op
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Apr 16, 2022 18:27
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Harold Fjord posted:What do you support doing when fascists are dragging a neighbor out of their house?
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Apr 16, 2022 18:32
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Mellow Seas posted:I see you've reached the "fantasizing about people doing things that justify me committing violence against them" stage of reactionary populism. Erm, this is probably in reference to the Texas state bill that has it so that the state can take your children away from you if you are supporting their transition. What sparked a lot of this discussion off was the decision by the USAF to remove some of their own employees and their families when the bill could potentially have caused them real harm and people asking if this could not be expanded/used in the same was as at Little Rock. It could, quite literally, be happening to people in Texas soon.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:36
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Mellow Seas posted:I see you've reached the "fantasizing about people doing things that justify me committing violence against them" stage of reactionary populism. Interesting choice of words. Very revealing that no one should be allowed to resist Nazi death squads
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Apr 16, 2022 18:40
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Josef bugman posted:Erm, this is probably in reference to the Texas state bill that has it so that the state can take your children away from you if you are supporting their transition. Yeah sure, but to make an unsavory comparison, there are actually black people that burgle houses, but that doesn't make the people who fantasize about one coming into their house so they can bag 'em any less concerning. (Not accusing anybody here of racism, to be clear.) If some Texas jackboots are really stealing a kid from his family and some badass neighbor wants to intervene, at the risk of his own life and liberty, I might applaud that guy. I will not applaud him for telling other people to risk their life and liberty in the same way, in the absence of his own heroic acts. And if he condemned people for not taking those actions, I would drag his rear end in D&D, so here we are. So while I would applaud an individual for their courage and principles, it's not reasonable to expect federal agents to do something similar, especially when the federal government is already mounting a robust legal argument against the bill, which has not as of yet failed. If the law is officially struck down and still being enforced as law in Texas, well, then we are in very different (and really scary) situation. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 18:40
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Mellow Seas posted:If the law is officially struck down and still being enforced as law in Texas, well, then we are in very different (and really scary) situation. And if it isn't? If it is maintained or expanded, would you not try and stop it? At what point do things become resistable by force seems to be the operative question of our time.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:49
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Josef bugman posted:And if it isn't? If it is maintained or expanded, would you not try and stop it? At what point do things become resistable by force seems to be the operative question of our time.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:54
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Please leave all fascism fighting to the federal authorities who have said it's not time to fight fascists yet. Also vote to defeat all the fascists in the federal government. And the state government. And the local government. But don't fight them.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:55
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Gumball Gumption posted:Please leave all fascism fighting to the federal authorities who have said it's not time to fight fascists yet. Also vote to defeat all the fascists in the federal government. And the state government. And the local government. But don't fight them. If you oppose the law and say stuff along the lines of "just lmao at voting for Beto" (which nobody has said in this current conversation, to be clear) I have to question what in the gently caress is wrong with you. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 18:56
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Mellow Seas posted:I mean, yes, it would be nice if people did this, instead of giving us never-ending laundry lists of reasons why it's not worth it. Earnestly wish I lived in this Disney world where the true failing is not voting correctly instead of being passive in the face of active violence. Meet violence with votes would be a great way to live if it was reasonable.
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Apr 16, 2022 19:06
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Gumball Gumption posted:Earnestly wish I lived in this Disney world where the true failing is not voting correctly instead of being passive in the face of active violence. Meet violence with votes would be a great way to live if it was reasonable.
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Apr 16, 2022 19:09
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Mellow Seas posted:If you lived in Texas, would you vote for Beto O'Rourke to be governor? Because Beto becoming governor and stopping the law in its tracks is not "Disney world". It's a guy who won 48% in a statewide race, who comes from a party that is unanimously opposed to the bill. How does this prevent large scale voter suppression? Does this also prevent things like blue state legislatures maybe beignf flipped red at some point, do you believe that votigg alone will change things for the better? If so good. But a lot of prior successes for civil rights, rights to work and so on were won through violence alongside voting.
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Apr 16, 2022 19:20
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Mellow Seas posted:If you lived in Texas, would you vote for Beto O'Rourke to be governor? Because Beto becoming governor and stopping the law in its tracks is not "Disney world". It's a guy who won 48% in a statewide race, who comes from a party that is unanimously opposed to the bill. The proper response is to vote for Beto while thinking 'lmao Beto is never going to win in Texas'
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Apr 16, 2022 19:22
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Bel Shazar posted:The proper response is to vote for Beto while thinking 'lmao Beto is never going to win in Texas' This tracks for most Texas Democrats. It’s fatalistic, but the Dem party here doesn’t try. Wish Beto had just attempted Governor instead of running for President and saying the gun thing.
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Apr 16, 2022 19:29
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Josef bugman posted:How does this prevent large scale voter suppression? Does this also prevent things like blue state legislatures maybe beignf flipped red at some point, do you believe that votigg alone will change things for the better? Just say you don't want any progress if not every single issue is instantly fixed by pressing a button. That's the argument being proposed here.
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Apr 16, 2022 19:30
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Bottom Liner posted:Just say you don't want any progress if not every single issue is instantly fixed by pressing a button. That's the argument being proposed here. No, I'm asking for what the solution is if voting alone won't fix it. What the acceptable form it should take is and how we should live with it. I do think that an active effort should be made on a great deal of stuff all at once though. I'm going to quote James Baldwin here: "' It's taken my father's time, my mother's time, my uncle's time, my brothers' and my sisters' time. How much time do you want for your progress?”. That stuck with me. How long should people who are suffering have to wait, and for what should they wait for? That whole thing is so so vital to how we approach things.
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Apr 16, 2022 19:35
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Bottom Liner posted:Just say you don't want any progress if not every single issue is instantly fixed by pressing a button. That's the argument being proposed here. No. At this point I can only assume your misrepresentation of the argument is deliberate. We've seen this a hundred times. Someone says the Dems aren't doing enough, then anything suggested they should do is actually fascism. Then we don't really want progress if exactly what they are already doing isn't enough. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 19:35
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I'm totally not surprised you have a final solution planned for those you deem fascist. I get that you're desperate to own the leftists but this is absolutely vile, especially from someone who capes for a political system and political party that has helped build and operate an actual concentration camp system in real life. Jesus Christ
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Apr 16, 2022 19:40
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Very dissapointed to learn that we can only either vote and organize, or enact meaningful change through numbers and force. I was really hoping we could do both. Fool that I am, I even thought both were necessary.Josef bugman posted:No, I'm asking for what the solution is if voting alone won't fix it. What the acceptable form it should take is and how we should live with it. It's this. Mellow Seas posted:But if you vote and organize, you might fix some problems, and then people will be less anxious, depressed and desperate, so you don't have a chance for a communist revolution. If you truly believe earnest participation in the system will bring the justice or sustainability necessary for the world to be measurably better, put your hand up. Now take your hand and smack your face. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 19:41
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BRJurgis posted:Very dissapointed to learn that we can only either vote and organize, or enact meaningful change through numbers and force. I was really hoping we could do both. Fool that I am, I even thought both were necessary.
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Apr 16, 2022 19:43
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Mellow Seas posted:But if you vote and organize, you might fix some problems, and then people will be less anxious, depressed and desperate, so you don't have a chance for a communist revolution. Since voting doesn't achieve anything and the only acceptable party doesn't actually want to make things better or prevent the fash from taking over, I don't think any leftists are worried about this. It's a lovely strawman though. Maybe we can make a nice display case for it. Material conditions will inevitably degrade no matter how you vote. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 19:45
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Mellow Seas posted:I see you've reached the "fantasizing about people doing things that justify me committing violence against them" stage of reactionary populism. This is not a matter of fantasy. This is a matter of ongoing, official, Biden-administration-endorsed ethnic cleansing, on the grounds people coming across the southern border constitute disease risks to the American people. Some of us view this as worthy of opposition. Others of us view it as a regrettable little whoopsie, which should not be opposed, on the grounds that would make the people opposing it the REAL fascists.
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Apr 16, 2022 19:46
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Harold Fjord posted:Since voting doesn't achieve anything and the only acceptable party doesn't actually want to make things better or prevent the fash from taking over, I don't think any leftists are worried about this I just don't see any chance of that collapse going "well," so I'm going to hold onto hope, just as you hold onto hope that what follows our current government won't be worse than what we have now. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:Others of us view it as a regrettable little whoopsie, which should not be opposed, on the grounds that would make the people opposing it the REAL fascists. Sometimes I think people are just disenchanted with representative democracy, which I understand, given that 95% of the population fits into categories that you aren't even willing to engage in a debate about morals or policy with. Perhaps we should discuss alternatives? Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 19:48
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You should be prepared for the idea that you might have to do things during the collapse besides hope it's not happening.
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Apr 16, 2022 19:51
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Harold Fjord posted:You should be prepared for the idea that you might have to do things during the collapse besides hope it's not happening. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 16, 2022 19:54
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What do you recommend given that activism is futile and cleansing the populace of your enemies is not great and difficult? Maybe you don't think activism is futile, I'm just legitimately curious about what kind of individual or community action would be beneficial. And if any groups are doing things you agree with, I'd be happy to look into them. ILL Machina fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 19:55
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Glory to Italia!
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How about that trans thing huh? Pretty crazy!
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Apr 16, 2022 19:59
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Mellow Seas posted:You are not a fascist, I am not a fascist, the people who are fascists are the people who demand brutality at the power, which is substantial amount of Americans, all of whom have the same rights to representation we do. What does a fascist say, when he watches his neighbors dragged away by the government, for their crimes against racial purity? There's a terrifying speech by Heinrich Himmler to the Einsatzgruppen, trying to get their morale back up. He does not speak of the glorious victory their operations ensure. He speaks, instead, of the terrible weight. How they know what they are doing is wrong, is evil, and in a better world would not need to be done. But circumstance has forced the nation's hand; to avoid the end of all they hold dear, they must do this horrible thing, and then pretend they have not done it, for the fear of what acknowledging the grim necessity would do. It is tragic, what is happening at the camps, says Heinrich Himmler. But it is the task of all good Germans to choose the lesser evil.
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Apr 16, 2022 20:00
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Mellow Seas posted:Well I can do that without you making GBS threads up this thread with your one line kvetches, thanks. In a post-society environment I would be hosed due to a lack of medication anyway. I'm begging you to look in a mirror and realize how much you are what you hate.
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Apr 16, 2022 20:02
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LegendaryFrog posted:The proximity of the assertions about “basically every elected official in both parties qualifies as a fascist because fascist enablers are no different than fascists themselves” and “fascists should be put to death” is pretty 👀 Personally, I'd be shocked if these theoretical anti-fascist purges stopped at just elected officials. After all, no matter what kind of number games you play with polls and no matter how much influence you think party machines have, it's pretty hard to deny that both Republicans and Democrats currently have a lot more public support - and all the policies being decried as fascist have a fair amount of public support as well. What happens if you oust the fascist candidates, and then their districts just vote the fascists back into power by overwhelming numbers? What happens if you ban the fascist candidates/parties, and their districts just vote new fascist candidates/parties into power? What happens if you take away those districts' ability to elect their desired representatives, but then they don't stop wanting fascists even after four years or eight years or twelve years? Are you just gonna put somewhere between 40% and 90% (depending on how broadly you define "fascist") under permanent military rule? I can't see how something like that doesn't end in bloodshed - and I don't see how the left as it currently stands has any chance of coming out on top after that bloodshed. Seriously, historical lessons are important here. The South revolted in an actual traitorous revolution, and was defeated in an actual loving shooting war in which a quarter-million Confederate soldiers died and the political rights of leading white supremacists were revoked, and then the South spent over a decade under military rule (during which soldiers had to be dispatched several time to drive out white supremacist militias that conquered state capitols by force and ousted the Reconstruction governments). The Constitution was amended more than once to add anti-discrimination clauses. And all of that still didn't stop Southerners from instituting effective apartheid basically the instant cracks appeared in the North's political willingness to completely exclude Southerners from government. In the end, this regime of official apartheid endured for nearly a century before finally being switched to plausibly-deniable unofficial apartheid, which still endures to this day. And let's not forget that even before all of this, the anti-slavery movement was dominant enough in national politics that the anti-slavery Republican Party was able to win the presidency. So when someone proposes that leftists will conduct a far greater and more-enduring purge despite having far smaller numbers than the Union Army and far less public support than Lincoln and the Republicans, it's hard to see how that would actually work. This entire conversation from both sides appears to be assuming that this anti-fascist purge will only have to revoke the rights of a few thousand people (mostly politicians). But in 2020, 81 million people voted for Joe Biden and 74 million people voted for Donald Trump. Combined, that's 155 million people, or over 60% of eligible voters. Even if you only define Republicans as fascist, those are some pretty unfavorable numbers, which only get worse if you include Democrats in your definition of "fascist". For comparison, the current prison population in the US (one of the most incarceral states in the world) is roughly 2 million people, the US military has roughly 1.4 million active-duty personnel, and the total membership of DSA is around 92,000. Josef bugman posted:How does this prevent large scale voter suppression? Does this also prevent things like blue state legislatures maybe beignf flipped red at some point, do you believe that votigg alone will change things for the better? You're correct here, but there is one extremely important caveat that you're missing: both voting and violence require a large amount of strong public support to be effective. What moved the needle on things like civil rights and labor rights were large-scale movements that had the numbers and reach necessary to seriously upset things across the country if they wanted to. The implicit threat of "if you don't let us get what we want through fair voting, we'll get it by whatever means necessary" only works when a movement can muster a large amount of people in the first place. And when I say "strong public support", I don't mean that people will say on a poll that they support the issue position or movement. I mean when people consider the issue a major political priority, to the point where they're willing to become a single-issue voter over it or even get arrested over it. If your movement is actually pretty small and has very little strong public support, then you're gonna find that violence is no more effective than voting. That's why the number one thing, fundamental and foundational to all political action inside or outside the system, is to win either the support of the public or the support of the military. Not by making empty promises about what you'll do once your movement gains political power, but how you're going to help them now and how you're going to fight for better things now. Stop talking about the federal government and start talking about how you're going to help communities. If the people at the top are corrupt (they always are), start from the bottom. Grassroots, community activism, stuff like that. You need to win wide support and build a movement, and only then can you start talking about voting or violence as if either one is a viable path to power.
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Apr 16, 2022 20:37
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Main Paineframe posted:Are you just gonna put somewhere between 40% and 90% (depending on how broadly you define "fascist") under permanent military rule? I can't see how something like that doesn't end in bloodshed - and I don't see how the left as it currently stands has any chance of coming out on top after that bloodshed. Yes they are. I wonder if there was a world wide event that involved defeated fascists and how a country prevented the fascists from regaining power instantly unlike the US. Maybe we could learn from it. quote:
What’s the saying? “You don’t get civil rights in the US without both MLK JR and Malcom X”?
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Apr 16, 2022 20:46
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:I get that you're desperate to own the leftists but this is absolutely vile, especially from someone who capes for a political system and political party that has helped build and operate an actual concentration camp system in real life. Jesus Christ I'm not the one that said "all fascists should be put in jail for life or killed" followed by the idea that all conservatives and liberals are fascists. I was just following the logical conclusion of the argument. He even called it a "permanent solution". Harold Fjord posted:You should be prepared for the idea that you might have to do things during the collapse besides hope it's not happening. Anyone arguing from the point of view that "the collapse" is imminent is not working with a functional model of reality, and it just seems like a really dumb place to start an argument from.
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Apr 16, 2022 21:42
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I never said we had to solve facism permanently (though it's probably a good idea) or that all libs are fasc (though you seem to be pretty ur-fashy) so maybe you should work on reading what people are actually posting and responding to because context is really important when postrs start engaging in other poster's hypotheticals. It's clear you are just bullshitting so you can call people in favor of the death penalty or actually fash whatever other own you are trying to get in at any given time.
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Apr 16, 2022 21:51
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I'm not the one that said "all fascists should be put in jail for life or killed" followed by the idea that all conservatives and liberals are fascists. I was just following the logical conclusion of the argument. He even called it a "permanent solution". Saying "permanent solution" in the context of explicit discussion of what constitutes a half-measure vs a full measure in antifascist strategy isn't remotely the same thing as the Nazi program that exterminated millions of Jewish people, you vile piece of poo poo. You knew exactly what you were doing. gently caress off. You're human garbage (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 16, 2022 22:00
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I'm not the one that said "all fascists should be put in jail for life or killed" followed by the idea that all conservatives and liberals are fascists. I was just following the logical conclusion of the argument. He even called it a "permanent solution". You should really Google what the Final Solution was, as it appears you are unaware of the gravity of what you were invoking, in the name of winning an internet argument, with people who said fascists should be opposed.
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Apr 16, 2022 22:03
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If you can't participate in this discussion without insinuating posters you disagree with are fascists etc that's a good sign it's going nowhere productive. Considering this thread has generated about twenty reports so far today and the arguments don't appear to be going anywhere in particular, it's probably time to wrap it up and move onto something more concretely related to current events instead of broad ideological arguments, sniping, and gotchas.
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Apr 16, 2022 22:14
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Here's something concretely related to current events: https://twitter.com/EqualityTexas/status/1515017110652653568 quote:Dr. Ximena Lopez, a UT Southwestern doctor who formerly led a program for transgender youth. She filed a 202 petition, a precursor to a lawsuit, in March seeking approval to question the hospital leaders under oath, as well as documents and communications, explaining why her employers decided to halt certain gender-affirming medical treatments for new adolescent patients at Genecis...
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Apr 16, 2022 22:25
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