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Catgirl Al Capone
Dec 15, 2007

Guillermus posted:

So after a big STR character (vagavond start then 60VIG, 40END, 60STR and 20INT for some STR/INT weapons) I want to make a new one instead of progressing into NG+.

Was thinking on a dual flail character (flail, nightrider's flail) with arcane for frost/bleed but I don't know how that works to be honest.

Faith/arcane?

Pure dex? (something like 2x halberds or curved greatswords)

ime whips are both better and more fun than flails

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Astrochicken
Aug 13, 2007

So you better go back to your bars, your temples
Your massage parlors!

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

i'm on my third playthrough and what i'm coming to realize is that i dislike Elden Ring's combat because it expects the player to be as passive as the older Souls games even though it's Sekiro / Bloodborne fast

i've always said that Souls combat got better as it got faster and i stand by that. the problem with ER isn't the speed, just like it wasn't the problem in DS3

the problem is that in Sekiro, and I'm guessing Bloodborne just by reputation, the player can and indeed should usually be the one instigating at least half the exchanges in combat. you're pushed to be aggressive, pro-active, not just fast, and rewarded for it.

i think even in Dark Souls 3 the "intended" way to play is a lot like Elden Ring, you're supposed to wait, observe, see the boss commit, and only attack afterwards. it's just that, with slower bosses than Elden Ring, you can kind of ignore that "intended" gameplay loop and play extremely aggressively in Dark Souls either by having a very fast weapon or because it's easier to hit enemies (even bosses) out of animations

but in ER if you do that you get smacked in the face from 50 meters away. you almost can't ever afford to instigate, and any of the tools that allow you to do so -- frost and bleed weapons (whose procs can fake-stagger even bosses who are normally immune to stagger), weapon arts or spells with extremely long range but also quick startup, etc. -- are so alien to the game's mechanical framework that they're overpowered, trivializing combat rather than just being strong, because nothing in Elden Ring was built around the assumption that you should be able to interrupt it

conversely in Sekiro, you can prevent a boss from acting for a second or two, usually, by being hyper-aggressive -- but then some invisible meter fills up and their next block will be a perfect parry and it'll be their turn again. Elden Ring wildly overtunes bosses when they're acting on their own initiative, but there's no mechanic for them to take back the initiative if the player finds one of the few cheese techniques that outright shuts them down. it's extremely all-or-nothing, which makes it far less satisfying

e: i realized this watching the slvl 1 Malenia run someone posted a few pages back, with the huge list of voluntary things he doesn't do. all the guy does in that is watch for her to start doing an animation, and then step out of the way. the one or two times he attacks prior to seeing her commit, he takes damage or only barely avoids it.

This is on point.

Elden Ring feels like a continuation of the Dark Souls 3 dlc difficulty arc. Every boss feels like hyper-Gael.

WaltherFeng
May 15, 2013

50 thousand people used to live here. Now, it's the Mushroom Kingdom.
Nioh is very good because the bosses are very aggressive but their attacks aren't that hard to dodge + you can block with any weapon so you can afford to be in their face.

voiceless anal fricative
May 6, 2007

Why does Bernahl show up as a summon for godskin duo, only to invade you in the area immediately after?

Dr. Clockwork
Sep 9, 2011

I'LL PUT MY SCIENCE IN ALL OF YOU!

bike tory posted:

Why does Bernahl show up as a summon for godskin duo, only to invade you in the area immediately after?

He protecc

He attac

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



bike tory posted:

Why does Bernahl show up as a summon for godskin duo, only to invade you in the area immediately after?

the snake eating its own tail

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



*me, joining as a registered member of the snake eating my face party* i never thought the snakes would eat *my* face

Dr. Clockwork
Sep 9, 2011

I'LL PUT MY SCIENCE IN ALL OF YOU!

Dr. Clockwork posted:

He protecc

He attac

But most importantly, he look for Rykard snacc

Dr. Clockwork
Sep 9, 2011

I'LL PUT MY SCIENCE IN ALL OF YOU!
quote is not edit

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Astrochicken posted:

This is on point.

Elden Ring feels like a continuation of the Dark Souls 3 dlc difficulty arc. Every boss feels like hyper-Gael.

I suspect the mitigating factor (for bosses, at any rate) is that once you really start dissecting the AI you can usually arrive at a "okay if purposefully whiff this fast, relatively safe attack it'll cause them to do their routine sooner than normal and then I can follow up with my real attack," which at least cuts out some of the downtime where you're just staring at each other.

It's still frustrating every time I hit an Omen or a Crucible Knight or something like that with a colossal weapon and they don't even flinch, though. It's much easier to posture break them (which ironically was already a mechanic in DS3, it's just that most enemies would die before they broke, plus no glowing yellow weakpoints to tell you how to follow up) but then it's that all-or-nothing deal again; after a few rounds of wait-and-punish (or 1-2 casts of an OP weapon art) you can get a huge window for a totally free attack that will probably kill, but it's much rarer to be able to stop a full health enemy's action a split second before it would have hit you.

Gael never bothered me that much but Harald Knights were the perfect distillation of what was wrong with that DLC, and Elden Ring has a lot of enemies that work just like Harald Knights.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Apr 16, 2022

a kitten
Aug 5, 2006

https://twitter.com/SunhiLegend/status/1515397571338018826?s=20&t=MwiuBXMQxWzKeEXUPTepQg
Spoilers for Malenia encounter

what a beautiful fight that is jeez

DeafNote
Jun 4, 2014

Only Happy When It Rains
I guess that's why they put so many bridges over the Harald Knights in the ringed city.

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002




as much as i love sunhi legend gonna have to assign demerits for not doing this naked with a jar on their head

edit: oh hey technique #26 for dealing with waterfowl dance

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

DeafNote posted:

I guess that's why they put so many bridges over the Harald Knights in the ringed city.

i'm aware of the plunging attack instant kill, but "many" ain't "all" and knowledge checks aren't as much fun as execution checks anyways

a kitten
Aug 5, 2006

Cowcaster posted:

as much as i love sunhi legend gonna have to assign demerits for not doing this naked with a jar on their head

edit: oh hey technique #26 for dealing with waterfowl dance

harsh but fair


And having never survived, nor seen more than the very beginning of waterfoul dance, i can actually feel myself getting caught by that deceptive ending it has just by watching it happen

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!
At this point, my favorite thing to do is just assist on Malenia all day. Watching hosts get slaughtered is entertaining. Watching hosts succeed and start flipping out is heartwarming.

I've gotten to the point where I can tell within the first 10 seconds of the fight whether we have a chance to win or not. :v: (Though, I'm still utterly floored on how many people just can't dodge her rot divebomb. It's literally the most telegraphed boss attack in the game.)

AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Apr 16, 2022

Professor Beetus
Apr 12, 2007

They can fight us
But they'll never Beetus

McCoy Pauley posted:

What are some good occult weapons to do that with? I'm banging my head against the last two bosses now, and was going to wait to respec my mainly INT guy until NG+ but would be interested in doing it now so I can go ahead and get there.

I ended up doing the Rivers of Blood +10 and Occult Nagikaba and shredded the last bosses pretty easily with something like 57 arcane + whatever strength and dex it took to wield those weapons. I never got good at fighting Radagon, so I still lucked out on a fight where he was just less aggro and used less bullshit attacks, but I found Elden Beast pretty easy with that setup. I chased him around and basically refused to engage outside of melee. I just got in his belly and blendered with L1 and L1 jump attacks. When I beat him I pretty much chunked him down a 3rd of the way every time I caught up to him.

SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012

Fun Shoe

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

i'm aware of the plunging attack instant kill, but "many" ain't "all" and knowledge checks aren't as much fun as execution checks anyways

I have never bothered with the harald knight plunging attack. Like... they'll just chase you up there!

Guillermus
Dec 28, 2009



f#a# posted:

With your first character in mind, I think the other two major archetypes you could go for are gonna be:

- 1:1 ARC/DEX bleed build (try curved swords, katanas, twinblades; you might want to level FTH too if you want dragon spells and key incants like Golden Vow)
- Battlemage (Bastard's Stars is a great flail for mages and you could capitalize on that with nightrider's for powerstance). 60+ int, str/dex as needed.

Even knowing that katanas are really good, I've never liked them since DS1 but I like curved swords, flails and twinblades :buddy:

CYBEReris posted:

ime whips are both better and more fun than flails

Whips are cool and fun (loved my powerstanced whip build in DS2) and is a good suggestion, thanks!

No Dignity
Oct 15, 2007

Cowcaster posted:

as much as i love sunhi legend gonna have to assign demerits for not doing this naked with a jar on their head

edit: oh hey technique #26 for dealing with waterfowl dance

Have you actually done the fight yet

Azran
Sep 3, 2012

And what should one do to be remembered?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jNtovi2Gds

Closure, at last

SKULL.GIF
Jan 20, 2017


AlternateNu posted:

(Though, I'm still utterly floored on how many people just can't dodge her rot divebomb. It's literally the most telegraphed boss attack in the game.)

It's because she crosses over your head during the dive, and if you're locked on you'll suddenly start running towards her when the camera flips over.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

i'm aware of the plunging attack instant kill, but "many" ain't "all" and knowledge checks aren't as much fun as execution checks anyways
you can parry their 1 handed attacks and kill them then, that's tricky to do and is kind of both

SKULL.GIF
Jan 20, 2017


Speaking of Malenia...



quote:

According to this, cedar apple rust's lifecycle involves 3 distinct phases, starting on juniper, migrating to apple, returning to juniper and germinating, then going dormant for more than a year.

So her first bloom was in the Haligtree, then she bloomed in Caelid, and returned to the Haligtree to go dormant.

The initial bloom is visually striking but then it starts looking Caelid-like:



This is a juniper tree, look familiar?

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
i'm pretty sure i've seen a few growths exactly like this in caelid, too:



it's a good catch!

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

interesting. I guess she counters with Waterfowl every time she’s riposted

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
i'm not sure it's every time?

Waterfowl Dance is "unlocked" as an option once she falls below 70% HP, though, and if you get an early riposte off it's very likely to be the hit that crosses that threshold

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
it's definitely not every time

voiceless anal fricative
May 6, 2007

AlternateNu posted:

(Though, I'm still utterly floored on how many people just can't dodge her rot divebomb. It's literally the most telegraphed boss attack in the game.)

Its super well telegraphed but the timing to press dodge is still pretty tight because she dives really fast. The first few times that catches people out, it certainly did me. I still flubbed them every now and then, literally the fight before I killed her I hosed it up died with her on like 5%.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Tuxedo Catfish posted:


Gael never bothered me that much but Harald Knights were the perfect distillation of what was wrong with that DLC, and Elden Ring has a lot of enemies that work just like Harald Knights.

You know I'm actually going to disagree with you on that, Harald knights are one of my favorite enemies in the entire Souls series when I realized what the idea was with them. The whole thing is that they are really tough and hit like tanks on paper, but they have the stereotypical glowing enemy weak point and the player has to figure out how to get to it in the context of Dark Souls. To do that they have to be more thoughtful, almost every Harald knight encounter has them in places with multiple crisscrossing elevations so the player has many opportunities to pull off a plunging attack if they time things right, but they have to be mindful of how to set up those opportunities which means more environmental awareness and exploiting the enemy's behaviour than normal. I like this in part because of the aforementioned environmental awareness, but also because plunging attacks were something that always felt a bit out of place in the Souls series, usually they only happen with really obvious setups like the Asylum Demon or Taurus Demon in DS1, the Harald knights felt like an intentional attempt to revisit it after years of neglect to more smoothly work it into the core combat of the games.

In addition to that, you can also get a critical on their weakspot with parries. I'm a real sucker for parries in these games as my posting reveals, so I like the way it rewards timing and knowledge of enemy attacks to open up huge damage opportunities you can't otherwise get if you are just doing the usual thing of waiting for their attacks to end and hitting them when open. You can even just get a bow and shoot them in their neckholes and that's viable too.

That was a lot to say about one enemy from two games ago, but I sincerly think that the Harald knights are well designed and budge the player out of their usual comfort zone to try things a bit differently.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
i actually didn't know that arrows worked and that softens my opinion of them somewhat

voiceless anal fricative
May 6, 2007

I didn't even know you could plunging attack them so I just slogged my way through the ringed city DLC :bang:

ER chat: Ive just respecced and int builds are really strong huh. Hit me up with your fav PVE spells please

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!
Oh, yeah. For anyone wondering about Crumbling Farum Azula's location, the location on the map isn't some gameplay conceit. You can actually see it from the Isolated Divine Tower due east where it should be.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
Also looking at the PSachivemehts nearly 20% have beaten Malenia which is suprising.

In fact Margot has nearly an 80% clear rate

dyzzy
Dec 22, 2009

argh
Mist raven on the second waterfowl flurry is hella stylish

Imo if you're comfortably at the level where you can dodge the first flurry no problem that's it, you've solved the fight

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
The first flurry is the big problem.

Though I did once get owned by the after combo delayed slash but that’s on me

GHOST_BUTT
Nov 24, 2013

Fun Shoe

CYBEReris posted:

ime whips are both better and more fun than flails

Yeah the flail powerstance moveset is very slow and hard to use. It's basically the hammer set as far as I can tell but with a little more reach.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
hammers/flails/axes all share the same terrible powerstance moveset

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



stop calling them harald knights it's spelled harold

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Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003
I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.
Soiled Meat
Is Malenia weak to occult too?

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