|
Josef bugman posted:What preliminary data is this? Could you provide it? Sure, someone posted some stuff a couple pages ago. It doesn't seem like enough to be definitive hard proof yet. But there's also the fact that it's going to be hard to get a ton of data at this point in time just because it's such a new subject and the numbers of people involved are so small. That's going to change over the next decade or so I imagine. Dog King posted:https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 18:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 18:18 |
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:Do people think it would be a problem if, down the road at some point, trans women were disproportionally represented in elite level women's sports? I don't know if it'll end up being the case, it seems like the preliminary data is starting to point that direction, but it's hardly conclusive yet. But I think it's a realistic enough possibility to be worth talking about now.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 20:18
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:Sure, someone posted some stuff a couple pages ago. It doesn't seem like enough to be definitive hard proof yet. But there's also the fact that it's going to be hard to get a ton of data at this point in time just because it's such a new subject and the numbers of people involved are so small. That's going to change over the next decade or so I imagine. Basically it appears you've decided based on a post on a webforum, that doesn't actually support your point, that this hypothetical seems likely. It's worth noting that is exactly the hypothetical that acknowledged transphobes use to create a moral panic around transgender women, despite the fact that they have already been allowed for over a decade and do not dominate any sport or even threaten to. So you're going to have to do a lot better than what-ifs if you're going to be matching transgender rhetoric, and you're going to have to provide better support.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:00
|
|
|
TERFs do not need evidence in order to advance their agenda and they will happily twist any anecdote or insinuation into pseudo-evidence. Implementing half-measure oppressions to appease them is not a viable path to a better world. In the event that enough trans athletes are allowed to compete to offer significant statistical evidence and it is discovered that there is some systemic advantage at the edges of the gender binary, sure, I’d be happy to hear from good faith proposals for new ways of slicing up the field by people who know far more than I do about the integrity of the sport. At the moment, as we’ve seen from quotes posted in this thread, the decisions are being made by people who believe things like “developing countries are inbred which gives them an advantage on the field.” So we have a long way to go before the conditions for an honest accounting of how gender plays out in sport.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:01
|
|
|
So, The worst submarine posted:transwomen ciswomen You know how we don't say "Chinaman" any more?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:03
|
|
|
El Fideo posted:So,
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:06
|
|
|
Interview with Joanna Harper, one of the prominent researchers in the field: https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20210715/do-trans-women-athletes-have-advantages quote:The important question isn't, “Do trans women have advantages?” What really matters is can trans women and cis women compete against one another in meaningful competition. There's no indication that trans women are anywhere close to taking over women's sport, it's not happening now. It's not likely to happen anytime in the future.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:14
|
|
|
There's really nothing to indicate that transgender women are dominating or ever will dominate women's sport, but for some reason that hypothetical has been brought up in this thread more than once.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:17
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:Most significantly there are two wildly different questions here: one is a question about trans kids in amateur sports and the other is a question about serious/professional/elite athletes and how to balance competing interests of inclusion and fairness, insofar as that is even possible in sporting events. This is key imo. Conflating these two very different questions is the cause of a lot of misunderstandings. The professional bigots advancing legislation are 100% conflating the two on purpose to muddy discussion. In my personal opinion, the first question is the more important one (and has a clear answer) and the second one is better off being answered by stakeholders in those professions/sports (including trans athletes, obviously). It also seems like the thread is intended for discussing the second question, which is fine. But since the current attacks on trans people in sports mostly fall under the first question, that’s where a lot of the discussion energy lands. I’ll out myself as a person that gives close to zero shits about sports and elite athletes; but the value of sports/athleticism and the communities that develop around them for children is fairly well supported, and I care very much about trans children being excluded from that. I think this thread could probably benefit from a reboot that clarifies the scope of the discussion. I would participate in one about childrens’/amateur sports and trans participants. I have a lot to say about that and some related expertise (though I doubt there would be much debate about it; betcha we all mostly agree). On the other hand I don’t have anything useful to say about professional/elite sports/athletics, though I’d read it with interest. On a personal note it does in fact suck to realize that despite all the uproar I could probably go join a mens’ amateur team in whatever sport tomorrow and no one would bat an eye. Layers upon layers of sexism, transphobia, and transmisogyny there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:28
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Basically it appears you've decided based on a post on a webforum, that doesn't actually support your point, that this hypothetical seems likely. No, I don't think I said that. I said some preliminary data seems to exist that suggests there might possibly be a problem in the future although it's too early to say for certain and we need to gather more data before forming stronger opinions about it. I will admit I am making an assumption that if a group of people has a meaningful physiological advantage in sports then over a sufficient amount of time, other factors being equal, they will probably come to be overrepresented in sports. It seems like a pretty reasonable assumption to me. And furthermore, I don't think it would end up being particularly surprising if it did turn out to be the case. We know, for a fact, that male athletes are substantially more capable than female ones. That's not even a contested point. I wouldn't consider it at all startling if it turned out to the case that going under HRT for a few years is not actually enough to completely equalize performance. I'm far from an elite level athlete, but even I know from my amateur level weightlifting that building muscle is substantially harder than maintaining muscle once you've built it. It's a fact that males are far more able than females to build muscle, and it seems pretty dubious that a few years of HRT would make all of that extra muscle mass disappear if you were actively trying to maintain it. But again, we don't have enough data yet, to say for sure. Getting more of it is a good thing that we should be doing, because evidence based policies are good. quote:It's worth noting that is exactly the hypothetical that acknowledged transphobes use to create a moral panic around transgender women, despite the fact that they have already been allowed for over a decade and do not dominate any sport or even threaten to. I don't think refusing to engage in plausible hypotheticals because they raise uncomfortable questions about a politically charged topic is helpful. Trans women could come to be overrepresented in women's sports. It's a thing that could conceivably happen. It seems to me that transphobic people are making that argument precisely because it's one of the few areas they have where they might be a grain of truth in what they're saying. Refusing to acknowledge the possibility is ceding ground to them in the eyes of undecided people whose support is required to accomplish anything. For the record, I don't find it surprising that a tiny and historically oppressed segment of the population isn't immediately dominating in sports the instant they're allowed in. I don't think that's strong enough reason to say that they absolutely for sure never will. quote:So you're going to have to do a lot better than what-ifs if you're going to be matching transgender rhetoric, and you're going to have to provide better support. I think being willing to engage with subjects like this and consider uncomfortable but plausible hypotheticals is a lot better support than chanting "trans women are women" over and over. It's a true statement, it's also largely irrelevant in this particular context, and it's not convincing to anyone who isn't already fully on board with you to begin with. I want to know what we should do if it does end up being the case that trans women are overrepresented in women's sports. Because that's going to be a poo poo show. If you think things are bad right now when the right is raising a moral panic over inference and a handful of examples, imagine what it'll be like if it ever comes to be the case that the facts can't be disputed.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:36
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:There's really nothing to indicate that transgender women are dominating or ever will dominate women's sport, but for some reason that hypothetical has been brought up in this thread more than once. Yeah for the millionth time, these state-level trans hate laws about sports literally impact one or maybe two or three people per state. People rightly say that's bullshit. But I guess if you can't say "I just don't like trans people," that hurts you - it backfires, you say stuff like muscle mass, leg stride length and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now that you're talking about high-level olympic sports physiology, and all these things you're talking about are totally hypothetical things and a byproduct of them is that you can talk about how maybe what if it were good to discriminate against trans people.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:36
|
|
|
You're talking about bullshit that is not real. What if trans people had laser vision. What if trans people were bulletproof. It's bullshit that is not real and you're wanting to pretend it's real because you want to concoct fantasies that justify discrimination.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:41
|
|
|
Sharkie posted:It's bullshit that is not real and you're wanting to pretend it's real because you want to concoct fantasies that justify discrimination. Do you think it's possible that you're the one concocting a fantasy because it might well turn out to be the case that the reality of the situation is lovely and in the end we're going to have to pick a group of people to be unfair to, no matter what we choose? And that really really sucks. And yes, to be clear, people taking concerns over elite level sports and using those concerns to justify oppressing teenagers in high school are scum. Colonel Cool fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Apr 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:47
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:Do you think it's possible that you're the one concocting a fantasy because it might well turn out to be the case that... I'm gonna stop you right there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:50
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:No, I don't think I said that. I said some preliminary data seems to exist that suggests there might possibly be a problem in the future although it's too early to say for certain and we need to gather more data before forming stronger opinions about it. I will admit I am making an assumption that if a group of people has a meaningful physiological advantage in sports then over a sufficient amount of time, other factors being equal, they will probably come to be overrepresented in sports. It seems like a pretty reasonable assumption to me. Currently data does not support your position. So why have you decided that it is trending the opposite? quote:I don't think refusing to engage in plausible hypotheticals because they raise uncomfortable questions about a politically charged topic is helpful. Trans women could come to be overrepresented in women's sports. It's a thing that could conceivably happen. It seems to me that transphobic people are making that argument precisely because it's one of the few areas they have where they might be a grain of truth in what they're saying. Refusing to acknowledge the possibility is ceding ground to them in the eyes of undecided people whose support is required to accomplish anything. Lots of things seem plausible when you're trying to create a reason for your biases. It seems plausible for racists that interracial marriage is going to erase white people. Assuming a hypothetical and working backwards isn't science, it's a bigotry in search of factual support. quote:I think being willing to engage with subjects like this and consider uncomfortable but plausible hypotheticals is a lot better support than chanting "trans women are women" over and over. It's a true statement, it's also largely irrelevant in this particular context, and it's not convincing to anyone who isn't already fully on board with you to begin with. You're not actually engaging with uncomfortable but plausible hypotheticals, you're going "hey maybe this transphobic talking point could be real, lets pretend it's possible and give it credit" You're going to first have to demonstrate it's plausible. You don't seem comfortable doing that, so you're asking others to engage with your thought experiments and implying that us calling that trash is some sort of failing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:54
|
|
|
Anyone worried about the hypothetical where someone lies about their gender to trick their way into a sport so they can dominate it is free to try this. If it's as easy as you think it's right there for you to do and then you'll have proof from your experiment instead of proposing really weird hypotheticals.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:55
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:I want to know what we should do if it does end up being the case that trans women are overrepresented in women's sports. Because that's going to be a poo poo show. If you think things are bad right now when the right is raising a moral panic over inference and a handful of examples, imagine what it'll be like if it ever comes to be the case that the facts can't be disputed. Trans women are less than a percentage point of the population It's not expected to increase over much. It's an issue that is usually categorized with disdain of ones own body social isolation and all other assorted misery that makes becoming a hyper competent athlete pretty dodgy. Should this somehow become a problem how is it different than tall women being over represented in certain categories of sports?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:55
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:Do you think it's possible that you're the one concocting a fantasy No, because data and reality are on our side, and not yours. Now, please feel free to support your statements. This isn't the "talk about your fantasies and hopes and dreams and fears" thread. This is the real lives of real people and it's disrespectful bullshit that you can't engage with any of it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:57
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:There's really nothing to indicate that transgender women are dominating or ever will dominate women's sport, but for some reason that hypothetical has been brought up in this thread more than once. It's a question worth exploring, at least in strength sports, which are very niche, because if you allowed a trans women who has not transitioned compete against others that have transitioned as well as cis women, then they would dominate based off of normative data. Which is why: Herstory Begins Now posted:Currently the biggest questions from actual sporting organizations in nearly all cases is not 'should trans people be able to compete' but rather, 'how long into the transition process should they be allowed to compete.' I want to emphasize here that this question is one trans athletes themselves are discussing and, in some organizations, are themselves involved in establishing the rules. We can look at Kroc's reduction in strength as an example of the huge impact of transitioning (for a world level athlete), as well as Angel Flores, who claims a dramatic loss in strength (basically next day after immediately starting HRT) https://atxtoday.6amcity.com/8-questions-angel-flores-austin-transgender-powerlifter-queer-eye/. Angel is #147 of the 198lb+ women in the world based on powerlifting total don't in a competition. There have only been a handful of totals put up higher than her's this year, where she has put up the 9th highest total out of 87 people. I think there is debate about how much environmental factors matter in the performance gap.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 21:57
|
|
|
woozy pawsies posted:It's a question worth exploring, at least in strength sports, which are very niche, because if you allowed a trans women who has not transitioned compete against others that have transitioned as well as cis women, then they would dominate based off of normative data. Do strength sports not have requirements around trasngender women competing? The argument that CC is making is based on post-affirmation/transition treatment athletes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:02
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Do strength sports not have requirements around trasngender women competing? Depends on the federation
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:03
|
|
|
woozy pawsies posted:Depends on the federation OK what are the guidelines and are any being dominated by transgender women?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:05
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Currently data does not support your position. So why have you decided that it is trending the opposite? If you have better data then I'd love to see it. If it does turn out to be the case that HRT completely equalizes all physiological advantages that going through male puberty and training in a male body for most of your life confers then that would be amazing. Problem solved. I don't believe that a decade or two of competition results, particularly given the current environment for trans people, demonstrates that. It is necessarily the fact that we're going to be making some inferences at the moment based on the little data we have available, given how poorly studied the subject currently is. Like some studies suggesting that trans women maintain some level of strength advantage over cis women, even after a period of HRT. quote:You're not actually engaging with uncomfortable but plausible hypotheticals, you're going "hey maybe this transphobic talking point could be real, lets pretend it's possible and give it credit" I suggest that what you're doing is going "this is a talking point that some transphobic people use, therefore it is necessarily entirely incorrect".
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:10
|
|
|
This article has been referenced a few times, and it seems pretty sketchy to me. In addition to using what more informed people than I itt have indicated is sharply disfavored terminology ("biological males and females" is right in the abstract), I have my doubts about their premise. Their whole discussion of trans athletes is based on their claim that the competitive advantage cisgender male athletes have over cisgender female athletes is "insurmountable", and I really don't think they supported it in any rigorous way. Looking at a sample of competition records from selected gender segregated sports, as they do in the section on elite athletes, and chalking the difference entirely up to biology (1) looks a lot like cherry picking and (2) involves making some huge assumptions. A paper using the same approach to evaluate a hypothetical performance difference related to race or ethnicity would be laughed out of the thread. I mean, sure, dimorphism is a thing, and nobody's going to be surprised by the difference seen in, say, Olympic lifting records. But they really didn't do a lot to justify going from a discussion of elite athletic performance and selected world records to quote:These data overwhelmingly confirm that testosterone-driven puberty, as the driving force of development of male secondary sex characteristics, underpins sporting advantages that are so large no female could reasonably hope to succeed without sex segregation in most sporting competitions. To ensure, in light of these analyses, that female athletes can be included in sporting competitions in a fair and safe manner, most sports have a female category the purpose of which is the protection of both fairness and, in some sports, safety/welfare of athletes who do not benefit from the physiological changes induced by male levels of testosterone from puberty onwards. That's a really strong statement! But they don't actually articulate any methodology for how they picked specific athletic tasks or why they should be regarded as so broadly representative. It's just presented as kind of a gish gallop of different facts, most of which seem to have been picked because they knew they'd be able to find a number. Like...why two (related!) golf metrics, whereas all other sports with different disciplines have them averaged together and shown with an error bar? By what criteria was, say, a task related to cricket included, but wrestling was not? Why didn't they look at any of these sports in the amateur context in the next section, instead jumping to a completely different analytical approach? I would also expect such an article to at least engage with the idea that a different reason for gender segregation might exist in a sport. Given how readily posters here were able to reference counter examples, this is at best a pretty big blind spot. Likewise socioeconomic factors - the paper cites several gender segregated events as comparable without addressing the history of support (or the lack thereof) for women's meaningful access to those competitions. They seem to have latched on to whatever records are already published in association with a sport as being representative of important performance characteristics in that sport, so I'd also say they need to account for the possibility of gender bias in what sporting records have come to be regarded as important. eviltastic fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Apr 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:13
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:OK what are the guidelines and are any being dominated by transgender women? Angel Flores is #1 for this year out of 228 competitors (only out of 33 people who have competed in similar classes in tested federations, only 10 in the 220 class) according to OpenPl https://www.openpowerlifting.org/rankings/wraps/all-tested/women/2022/by-total But again, very niche sport, so I wouldn't say its something that could be extrapolated to more popular sports. Iron Culture had a whole podcast about the recent rise and fall in popularity of powerlifting for a bit because people realized the pond was small and you could easily win a regional/state competition. But it is a strength sport regardless.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:14
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:If you have better data then I'd love to see it. If it does turn out to be the case that HRT completely equalizes all physiological advantages that going through male puberty and training in a male body for most of your life confers then that would be amazing. Problem solved. I don't believe that a decade or two of competition results, particularly given the current environment for trans people, demonstrates that. Sorry, try again. You've put forth a hypothetical, and said it was trending that way. You haven't supported that with data. Burden of proof rests on you. quote:I suggest that what you're doing is going "this is a talking point that some transphobic people use, therefore it is necessarily entirely incorrect". Nope, I'm saying that I have no reason to entertain transphobe talking points at all. If you have a prediction or belief about transgender athletes, please feel free to support them here with data. But make sure that the data you supply actually supports your argument.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:15
|
|
|
Sedisp posted:Trans women are less than a percentage point of the population It's not expected to increase over much. It's an issue that is usually categorized with disdain of ones own body social isolation and all other assorted misery that makes becoming a hyper competent athlete pretty dodgy. Should this somehow become a problem how is it different than tall women being over represented in certain categories of sports? I think saying being trans is just a natural advantage like being tall is a valid answer to the problem, and probably one I could buy on a philosophical level. But I think an issue is is that being tall is a natural advantage to certain sports, where being male is a natural advantage to most sports. Short girls have other sports they can compete in, they don't have to go into basketball. And if it did come to be the case that trans women were dominating most elite sports it seems kind of lovely for cis girls to know that it's very unlikely they'd ever be able to be competitive at the top levels of whatever sport they were interested in. Which is sort of the primary reason we formed gendered sports in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:18
|
|
|
woozy pawsies posted:Angel Flores is #1 for this year out of 228 competitors (only out of 33 people who have competed in similar classes in tested federations, only 10 in the 220 class) according to OpenPl https://www.openpowerlifting.org/rankings/wraps/all-tested/women/2022/by-total I should also note that this is in the "wrapped" division, in which they get some aid for lifting. There are women putting up significantly larger totals in smaller weight classes in the raw divisions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:18
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:And if it did come to be the case that What if it came to be the case that you made a post that didn't suck rear end? I know that's a wild hypothetical but hear me out.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:22
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:I think saying being trans is just a natural advantage like being tall is a valid answer to the problem, and probably one I could buy on a philosophical level. If transgender women developed laser-eyes they'd be so accurate that cisgender girls would feel sad, maybe? Unfortunately I can't seem to find any evidence that this is likely. How are you doing finding evidence for your hypothetical?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:22
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Sorry, try again. Buddy if you think the argument that muscles are important for winning in sports and initial data suggesting that trans women maintain a greater muscle mass than cis women even after a period of HRT is insufficient to demonstrate even a reason for possible concern then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. We'll see what the historians say about it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:23
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:Buddy if you think the argument that muscles are important for winning in sports and initial data suggesting that trans women maintain a greater muscle mass than cis women even after a period of HRT is insufficient to demonstrate even a reason for possible concern then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. so show us the trans women athletes destroying cis women in sports lmao
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:24
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:Buddy if you think the argument that muscles are important for winning in sports and initial data suggesting that trans women maintain a greater muscle mass than cis women even after a period of HRT is insufficient to demonstrate even a reason for possible concern then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. This post doesn't actually contain any data or studies to support your hypothetical. Try again.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:25
|
|
|
woozy pawsies posted:Angel Flores is #1 for this year out of 228 competitors (only out of 33 people who have competed in similar classes in tested federations, only 10 in the 220 class) according to OpenPl https://www.openpowerlifting.org/rankings/wraps/all-tested/women/2022/by-total As you say, she happens to be #1 in a sport with a small pond. One could easily see an asian competitor win #1 and then question whether asian powerlifters may someday dominate the sport. Lia Thomas is #1 in one event one time and people are already discussing the impending transgender takeover. None of this discusses the transgender women who are competing and not winning.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:30
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:I think saying being trans is just a natural advantage like being tall is a valid answer to the problem, and probably one I could buy on a philosophical level. this whole argument is ridiculous. if, in your absurd hypothetical, transwomen were dominant like tallness correlates with in basketball, and as you seem to think "it would be kind of lovely for cis girls to know they're unlikely to be competitive at top levels", why isn't your suggestion that there be a short women league to keep out the unfairly advantaged tall women?? Seems kind of lovely for the short women otherwise, don't you think? Why is a woman being trans different in your view?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:41
|
|
|
ram dass in hell posted:this whole argument is ridiculous. if, in your absurd hypothetical, transwomen were dominant like tallness correlates with in basketball, and as you seem to think "it would be kind of lovely for cis girls to know they're unlikely to be competitive at top levels", why isn't your suggestion that there be a short women league to keep out the unfairly advantaged tall women?? Seems kind of lovely for the short women otherwise, don't you think? Why is a woman being trans different in your view? Because the idea is that trasngender women are less than women. That's why it's unacceptable for cisgender girls to be sad for not being
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:46
|
|
|
be cool to get trans men representation somehow
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:49
|
|
|
ram dass in hell posted:this whole argument is ridiculous. if, in your absurd hypothetical, transwomen were dominant like tallness correlates with in basketball, and as you seem to think "it would be kind of lovely for cis girls to know they're unlikely to be competitive at top levels", why isn't your suggestion that there be a short women league to keep out the unfairly advantaged tall women?? Seems kind of lovely for the short women otherwise, don't you think? Why is a woman being trans different in your view? The existence of some unfairness is a reality of the world and isn't a reason to throw up our hands and say that there's nothing we can do about anything. Gendered sports seems to be reasonably successful at providing a wide range of options for a wide range of the population in a way that works reasonably well. Which isn't to say that we can't make improvements where possible, like the existence of weight categories in a number of sports. I don't have any objections to making a short girl basketball league if there was a great demand for it, but it doesn't seem like there is. I'm not even necessarily saying that if it does turn out to be the case that trans women have an advantage then we need to keep them out of elite level sports. Maybe that's the unfairness that we learn to live with. All I'm saying is that it's a possibility that this is a problem which we should be able to confront, because if we don't then the right is going to offer solutions to that problem that we don't like.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:49
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:As you say, she happens to be #1 in a sport with a small pond. One could easily see an asian competitor win #1 and then question whether asian powerlifters may someday dominate the sport. Except the difference being that there IS a large gap in performance between male and female divisions in strength sports. And with studies showing that strength and LBM will be above the level of a cis woman up to 3 years after HRT, strength sports would be the most likely place to see an advantage. Is there an advantage, how big is the advantage, and does it matter more than environmental factors are all questions that have not been answered by science. Again, I defer to Harper on this stuff quote:But that's the population these studies looked at -- they weren't looking at trans women who are active in sports. We found that the trans women didn't lose very much strength or lean body mass. But they probably didn't build up very much before they started hormone therapy. How applicable that finding is to trans athletes is somewhat debatable.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 18:18 |
|
|
The worst submarine posted:be cool to get trans men representation somehow woozy pawsies posted:heres an interview with a FtM bodybuilder for anyone interested, they go over some of the stuff discussed here, but overall its bodybuilding-centric https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35jKmAdwaV8
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2022 22:51
|
|