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Miss Broccoli posted:Basically all you have said Cool is that something could happen based on "preliminary" data that itself says is useless, which you conveniently ignored. From there you have gone on to build a hypothetical situation based on data that does not say what it says it means. Sure, let's look at some quotes from the useless articles. quote:These observations in trained transgender individuals are consistent with the findings of the current review in untrained transgender individuals, whereby 30 months of GAHT may be sufficient to attenuate some, but not all, influencing factors associated with muscular endurance and performance. quote:Haemoglobin levels decrease to those seen in cisgender women after 4 months of hormone therapy. In contrast, despite significant decreases in muscle cross-sectional area, lean body mass and strength after 12–36 months of hormone therapy, values remain higher than that in cisgender women quote:It is possible that transwomen competing in sports may retain strength advantages over cisgender women, even after 3 years of hormone therapy. quote:Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport. quote:As previously stated, a major limitation in this area of research is the absence of studies in transgender athletes. I think all of this is pretty consistent with what I've said on the topic. There seems to be some evidence suggesting that an advantage may exist, but definite conclusions at the moment are necessarily limited because studies on the specific topic of trans athletes haven't been done as of yet, and we should do more research. I don't think it's reasonable to dismiss the existing evidence based on the fact that it doesn't conclusively prove this specific issue one way or another. We can probably make at least some inferences, such as trans athlete bodies probably don't function completely differently than physically fit trans bodies, or untrained trans bodies. If I may ask you a question. If evidence does eventually conclusively prove the fact that trans women athletes do have a competitive advantage in sports, would that change your mind on any of this, or would you say that that advantage is acceptable? Is there a level of advantage that you would find unacceptable?
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Apr 17, 2022 07:15
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Given - A: Enough elite-level physically-advantaged trans women are competing to claim all top spots if possible at elite events. B: Elite-level trans women have physical advantages over elite-level cis women in the majority of events. C: There are limited spots to compete in at elite events for the women's league. D: The best players are given top spots Then - 1: Elite-level trans women will tend to beat elite-level cis women. 2: Because elite-level trans women tend to beat elite-level cis women, top spots formerly held by cis women will be held by trans women. 3: Assuming trans people are a small percentage of the population, they will be disproportionately represented in the top results. A- hypothetical B- more evidence requested C- currently true D- currently true? Pros: ? Cons: ?
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Apr 17, 2022 07:24
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Colonel Cool posted:I think all of this is pretty consistent with what I've said on the topic. No, it isn't. You've claimed that data indicated a trend where your hypothetical was likely. It doesn't. quote:There seems to be some evidence suggesting that an advantage may exist, but definite conclusions at the moment are necessarily limited because studies on the specific topic of trans athletes haven't been done as of yet, and we should do more research. I don't think it's reasonable to dismiss the existing evidence based on the fact that it doesn't conclusively prove this specific issue one way or another. We can probably make at least some inferences, such as trans athlete bodies probably don't function completely differently than physically fit trans bodies, or untrained trans bodies. None of this has anything to do with your hypothetical, which you have no evidence for. You've gone from "there may be a slight advantage" to "this is proof of likely future domination" and you're hoping nobody will notice. Your working backwards from an endpoint you've created out of whole cloth. quote:If I may ask you a question. If evidence does eventually conclusively prove the fact that trans women athletes do have a competitive advantage in sports, would that change your mind on any of this, or would you say that that advantage is acceptable? Is there a level of advantage that you would find unacceptable? Why would it be a problem, if transgender women are women?
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Apr 17, 2022 07:30
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The worst submarine posted:Given - world class athletes are rare outliers with genetic advantages suited to their sport (i.e. basketplayers are tall) as it is, and i would be surprised if just being trans is enough to trump all of those rare characteristics that an athlete would need to compete at the elite level. one exception could be for strength sports but then like i joked earlier, a trans strength athlete is probably the only one not supplementing androgenic compounds so i doubt this is going to be a big disproportionate issue. i have very much enjoyed reading the d&d sports experts posts itt tho
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Apr 17, 2022 07:31
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I'm not engaging with you on your faulty hypothetical. What exactly is informing your inferences Cool. Why do you think your inferences are appropriate. Why is your extrapolation appropriate. You are making several assumptions, presupposing that those assumptions are true, and then expecting me and others to agree with those assumptions. I do not agree to your framing of the issue. Stop trying to weasel out of that. Go and read the quotes woozy extracted for you. If you can not refute those then the point is moot. You don't just get to say "I was convinced" when its convenient. Why were you convinced when the authors themselves instructed you not to be. If you can't explain any of this, well, kindly gently caress off, transphobe quote:However, several limitations are noted. Although the data we present are meaningful, the effects of GAHT on these parameters, or indeed athletic performance in transgender people who engage in training and competition, remain unknown. The levels of physical activity of the transwomen compared with cisgender women in the studies were not reported. Other limitations include the studies being written in English only, and the research being conducted in Western countries, contributing to geographical bias. Furthermore, as with much research with transgender individuals, there is a sparse data risk66 because of small sample sizes and short study durations, indicative of the relatively small population, difficulties with recruitment and high drop-out rates over time. quote:The research conducted so far has studied untrained transgender women. Thus, while this research is important to understand the isolated effects of testosterone suppression, it is still uncertain how transgender women athletes, perhaps undergoing advanced training regimens to counteract the muscle loss during the therapy, would respond
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Apr 17, 2022 07:33
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if you want your hypothetical scare issue show me data that shows transgender athletes dominating at less competetive levels and taking all the scholarships and college admissions. but i haven't heard about that either yet.
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Apr 17, 2022 07:34
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quote:Please don't answer questions with questions, and be careful to only make assertions you are willing to support or concede. quote:I would not like to foster that, which is why if someone refuses to provide evidence when challenged with counter-evidence, they'll be probed for bad faith. I've also thought about instituting a rule where controversial statements of fact need to be backed up in the same post in threads where it's called for, but that does preclude discussion that comes from refuting common unsupported statements. So there is some trade-off. The rule would also apply to everyone equally, of course. quote:Then if they repeated their claims without rigorously addressing the arguments made against them, which presumably they could not, they would be punished for bad faith. Come on Koos
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Apr 17, 2022 07:40
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I've seen my own death. A trans woman fatally javelin throws me in France. I must prevent this - by any means.
The worst submarine fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 07:45
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The worst submarine posted:I've seen my own death. A transwoman fatally javelin throws me in France. I must prevent this - by any means. there are around 500,000 trans women in the us. according to the bureau of labor statistics 80% of them are internet posters leaving only 100,000 engaged in any sort of daily sport or exercise. of all high school football players only .02 percent of them make it to the nfl and go pro. this means there are 20 elite trans women athletes in the country, and frankly they just don't have the numbers to take all the trophys.
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Apr 17, 2022 07:56
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im gunna chuck that javelin if you keep forgetting the space
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Apr 17, 2022 07:57
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Miss Broccoli posted:im gunna chuck that javelin if you keep forgetting the space sorry i only learned today that TERFs are erasing trans spaces
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Apr 17, 2022 08:31
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jarofpiss posted:there are around 500,000 trans women in the us. according to the bureau of labor statistics 80% of them are internet posters leaving only 100,000 engaged in any sort of daily sport or exercise. of all high school football players only .02 percent of them make it to the nfl and go pro. this means there are 20 elite trans women athletes in the country, and frankly they just don't have the numbers to take all the trophys.
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Apr 17, 2022 08:37
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Miss Broccoli posted:Basically all you have said Cool is that something could happen based on "preliminary" data that itself says is useless, which you conveniently ignored. From there you have gone on to build a hypothetical situation based on data that does not say what it says it means. Thank you for reporting them rather than accusing them in thread, at least at first. I reviewed Colonel Cool's posts, and they appear to be making the argument that the evidence suggests a possibility of an advantage, not that it confirms with certainty there is an advantage, and they have been consistent in how they treat this position as well as responsive to challenges, so I don't believe they're posting in bad faith.
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Apr 17, 2022 08:40
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Koos Group posted:Thank you for reporting them rather than accusing them in thread, at least at first. I reviewed Colonel Cool's posts, and they appear to be making the argument that the evidence suggests a possibility of an advantage, not that it confirms with certainty there is an advantage, and they have been consistent in how they treat this position as well as responsive to challenges, so I don't believe they're posting in bad faith. its bad faith, and its inherently just to be an rear end in a top hat and say that trans athletes are using an advantage and its transphobic garbage. The op had it correct that this thread is a honeypot and people arguing that trans athletes inherently are cheating by using the actual medications needed to allow them to be themselves are disgusting. This is not a both sides area of topic, this thread should be about discussing how god loving awful trans athletes are treated because of transphobia and hatred towards minorities.
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Apr 17, 2022 08:56
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Koos Group posted:Thank you for reporting them rather than accusing them in thread, at least at first. I reviewed Colonel Cool's posts, and they appear to be making the argument that the evidence suggests a possibility of an advantage, not that it confirms with certainty there is an advantage, and they have been consistent in how they treat this position as well as responsive to challenges, so I don't believe they're posting in bad faith. you should be ashamed of yourself
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Apr 17, 2022 09:03
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Koos Group posted:Thank you for reporting them rather than accusing them in thread, at least at first. I reviewed Colonel Cool's posts, and they appear to be making the argument that the evidence suggests a possibility of an advantage, not that it confirms with certainty there is an advantage, and they have been consistent in how they treat this position as well as responsive to challenges, so I don't believe they're posting in bad faith. Actually no they haven't been responsive to challenges, they keep trying to make some studies someone else posted, that are hardly conclusive, justify their continued hypothetical that represents an almost verbatim transphobic talking point framed as a hypothetical to conform to your rules lawyering. And because they continue to try and make that nothing be the justification for continued pestering of a hypothetical and posts that are basically devoid of meaningful content otherwise. And your lack of moderation has caused continued pain to the targets of that hypothetical, who are forced to continue to engage with a loaded question based on nothing and escalate their tone, or they are badgered for not engaging with it. Great work on creating a space the oppressed are constantly confronted with thinly veiled transphobic talking points and get punished if they lose their cool while they do all the emotional labor in this situation.
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Apr 17, 2022 09:06
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UCS Hellmaker posted:its bad faith, and its inherently just to be an rear end in a top hat and say that trans athletes are using an advantage and its transphobic garbage. The op had it correct that this thread is a honeypot and people arguing that trans athletes inherently are cheating by using the actual medications needed to allow them to be themselves are disgusting. Col. Cool has not argued, as far as I can see, that trans people or cheating, and beyond that has not even made the case that we know definitively that they have an advantage. If you have a case using specific posts of theirs that they're acting in bad faith, please PM it to me. Jaxyon posted:Actually no they haven't been responsive to challenges, they keep trying to make some studies someone else posted, that are hardly conclusive, justify their continued hypothetical that represents an almost verbatim transphobic talking point framed as a hypothetical to conform to your rules lawyering. Reading through The Colonel's posts, they have never claimed the studies were conclusive, and this matches how they themselves treat an advantage as a possibility rather than a certainty.
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Apr 17, 2022 09:12
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I can't help but be reminded about a discussion elsewhere on the forums about how the X-men aren't necessarily a good allegory for minorities as they have actual textual superpowers and IRL ones obviously don't. But an interesting point is raised that bigots already treat minorities as if they do have superpowers that make them inherent threats no matter who they are or what they're actually doing.
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Apr 17, 2022 10:01
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Here's a story that's been circulating over the last few days: https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-wor...ild-baby-female quote:UNION TOWNSHIP, N.J. (TND) — Two inmates who are serving sentences within New Jersey's only all-women prison are reportedly pregnant after they had sex with transgender inmates. Problems with mass incarceration aside, how should something like this be handled? Should transgender individuals be housed w their identified gender?
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Apr 17, 2022 12:06
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:Here's a story that's been circulating over the last few days: So the solution is to what exactly? House trans people in separate wings as if they're akin to sex offenders?
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Apr 17, 2022 12:11
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:Here's a story that's been circulating over the last few days: Who cares? I don't see the issue here
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Apr 17, 2022 12:18
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Ash Crimson posted:So the solution is to what exactly? House trans people in separate wings as if they're akin to sex offenders? I have no clue, that's why I'm asking. Seems like there's three options: a) house w gender assigned at birth b) house w identified gender c) house in separate facilities b) is the obvious one but making babies in prison isn't good and i don't think the complaints from female inmates should be dismissed out of hand either.
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Apr 17, 2022 12:20
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Who cares? I don't see the issue here you don't see an issue w prisoners reproducing while incarcerated? Ok that's certainly a take
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Apr 17, 2022 12:21
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good on NJ for respecting prisoners' gender identities thoughBIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:you don't see an issue w prisoners reproducing while incarcerated? Ok that's certainly a take What do you see as the problem and what do you think should be done about it? And how is the answer to those two questions not a violation of civil rights nor also something leading to hugely more government control over women's reproductive systems? Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 12:25
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:the complaints from female inmates should be dismissed out of hand either. I need to use a bus. One day the driver is replaced by a new driver. He is an identical match for another person that caused me trauma. Completely identical looking in all way shape and forms. He is however absolutely not the person who caused me the trauma. Should I be allowed to force the driver to be transferred to a worse route because of my trauma?
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Apr 17, 2022 12:25
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option f: provide inmates contraception if they want it
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Apr 17, 2022 12:28
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prisoners already get pregnant from guards
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Apr 17, 2022 12:29
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I’ll be honest. I had no idea that prisoner sex was an athletic sport.
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Apr 17, 2022 12:31
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doingitwrong posted:I’ll be honest. I had no idea that prisoner sex was an athletic sport. This is the catchall trans panic thread until Koos decides that asking infinity questions is in some way actionable.
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Apr 17, 2022 12:32
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Herstory Begins Now posted:good on NJ for respecting prisoners' gender identities though I don't know what the solution is, I know little about gender studies, that's why I'm asking folks w more knowledge and experience. Housing trans folks in separate facilities seems like the least-messy solutiom Do you think prisons should be separated by gender?
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Apr 17, 2022 12:35
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:I don't know what the solution is, I know little about gender studies, that's why I'm asking folks w more knowledge and experience. Housing trans folks in separate facilities seems like the least-messy solutiom Sedisp posted:I need to use a bus. One day the driver is replaced by a new driver. He is an identical match for another person that caused me trauma. Completely identical looking in all way shape and forms. He is however absolutely not the person who caused me the trauma.
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Apr 17, 2022 12:36
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I don't understand the analogy. Could you please be more direct?
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Apr 17, 2022 12:37
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Jaxyon posted:No, it isn't. You've claimed that data indicated a trend where your hypothetical was likely. It doesn't. I think the word I used was plausible. And I stand by it. I don't think the hypothetical is wild and outlandish, nor do I yet think that we have enough evidence to call it likely. If you don't think the evidence provided is sufficient to even raise the question then that's certainly your prerogative, but I disagree. quote:Your working backwards from an endpoint you've created out of whole cloth. I like these two statements together. I think you're the one working backwards from the endpoint that trans women are women, therefore they should be included in women's sports. And all of this talk about a lack of evidence is you blowing a smokescreen because you don't care if an advantage exists or not and it's superficially rhetorically effective to constantly demand very specific evidence that doesn't currently exist because the field is too new and small to have literally any research done on it yet. And that's fine, if your position is it's acceptable for trans women to dominate women's sports if it ends up happening! I think that's a perfectly philosophically justifiable position. I think it comes with a number of interesting practical and moral considerations, which is what I wish we were discussing, if you weren't so focused on tripping the discussion out of the starting gate on extremely basic and uncontroversial claims.
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Apr 17, 2022 12:38
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:I don't understand the analogy. Could you please be more direct? Should one persons trauma be the standard for how we treat individuals who did not cause the trauma? Analogy is pretty direct and specific.
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Apr 17, 2022 12:39
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:Housing trans folks in separate facilities seems like the least-messy solutiom Given the relative minority of trans people, this "solution" just ends up being brutal isolation in practice. Colonel Cool posted:I think you're the one working backwards from the endpoint that trans women are women, therefore they should be included in women's sports. It's a self-evident fact. You need some sort of evidence that these women are dominating women's sports to justify excluding them, and you entirely lack that evidence and propose a "solution" that would make it impossible to collect that evidence. The fact that some bigots think that they aren't actually women isn't material to the discussion.
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Apr 17, 2022 12:41
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:I don't know what the solution is, I know little about gender studies, that's why I'm asking folks w more knowledge and experience. Housing trans folks in separate facilities seems like the least-messy solutiom idk i think you should go read up on poo poo on your own rather than asking dumbass questions here because all of your posts so far sound stupid as gently caress and have nothing to do with the thread topic. The obvious solution is just give prisoners piles of contraceptives because you will never, ever stop prisoners from loving (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 12:43
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brb just going to exclude an entire group of women because some people are uncomfortable with them, sorry lesbians, sorry black women (cis or trans) this is the exact same argument british terfs use against trans women, even those who aren't in prison for violent crimes
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Apr 17, 2022 12:44
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Cease to Hope posted:It's a self-evident fact. You need some sort of evidence that these women are dominating women's sports to justify excluding them, and you entirely lack that evidence and propose a "solution" that would make it impossible to collect that evidence. The fact that some bigots think that they aren't actually women isn't material to the discussion. It is not a self-evident fact. Being a woman is not the sole qualifier for participating in women's sports. Do you think trans women who haven't gone on HRT should be able to participate in women's sports solely based on the fact that they are women? There obviously exist some limitations on your ability to join women's sports. What and where those limitations should be is what the question is.
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Apr 17, 2022 12:47
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Herstory Begins Now posted:idk i think you should go read up on poo poo on your own rather than asking dumbass questions here because all of your posts so far sound stupid as gently caress and have nothing to do with the thread topic. The obvious solution is just give prisoners piles of contraceptives because you will never, ever stop prisoners from loving you can just say "i have no clue" instead of resorting to insults (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 12:47
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:you can just say "i have no clue" instead of resorting to insults you could just keep your irrelevant questions to yourself and not reveal your ignorance to us all (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 12:49
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