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Colonel Cool posted:It is not a self-evident fact. Being a woman is not the sole qualifier for participating in women's sports. Do you think trans women who haven't gone on HRT should be able to participate in women's sports solely based on the fact that they are women? Below the college level? I absolutely do not give a gently caress. Bear in mind most of the trans panic bills right now are targeting children in public schools, and I don't see any good reason to give a poo poo if some JV softball player is on hormone blockers or not. At college/professional/(inter)national competition levels, they already have standards that require trans women to be on HRT to qualify (or else exclude trans women entirely); what's the problem you're trying to address with all of these questions you're Just Asking? Do you have any evidence of a problem or all, or just "plausible" questions?
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Apr 17, 2022 12:51
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please change the thread title to "should transgender people be treated as an intrinsic threat" to more accurately represent the zeitgeist
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Apr 17, 2022 12:51
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:you can just say "i have no clue" instead of resorting to insults I gave you the solution several times and you never addressed it.
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Apr 17, 2022 12:54
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Cease to Hope posted:Below the college level? I absolutely do not give a gently caress. Bear in mind most of the trans panic bills right now are targeting children in public schools, and I don't see any good reason to give a poo poo if some JV softball player is on hormone blockers or not. I suppose my basic problem is that people are treating this as a solved issue, when it very much doesn't appear to be. The standards set by various athletic committees are very much experimental and consistent of what appear to be best faith efforts to set compromises that lets as many people compete as possible, while trying to preserve the competitive integrity of the sports in question. And I support their ability to do so. Individual sports committees seem like the best positioned organizations to be able to make as fair a ruling as possible and are a hell of a lot better than ignorant and malicious politicians. What I have an issue with is people acting like they're standing on much firmer ground than they actually are, when the data literally doesn't exist yet, and coming off as ideologically committed to a certain answer regardless of what the facts may or may not end up being. Which gives fuel to people profiting off of raising a moral panic about trans people and doing petty and malicious things like banning kids from sports. Colonel Cool fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 13:06
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Colonel Cool posted:Which gives fuel to people profiting off of raising a moral panic about trans people and doing petty and malicious things like banning kids from sports. You have entirely misplaced the blame here. The outrage is about trans people existing full stop, and there's no evidence that regulations that require HRT have done anything to allay it. The fact that states are passing anti-trans sports bills targeting single-digit numbers of pre-pubescent children is proof that this is not "fueled" by supposed concerns about "competitive integrity". In general, if you are blaming the people targeted for conservative bigots targeting them, then you are the one falling for the conservative bigots' propaganda lines.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:11
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:I don't know what the solution is, I know little about gender studies, that's why I'm asking folks w more knowledge and experience. Housing trans folks in separate facilities seems like the least-messy solutiom I'm confused, what does fertility/two people being able to reproduce have to do with gender?
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Apr 17, 2022 13:11
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Colonel Cool posted:I think you're the one working backwards from the endpoint that trans women are women If you aren't starting there you are defending a transphobic point of view. You should stop defending transphobic points of view. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 13:13
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Colonel Cool posted:What I have an issue with is people acting like they're standing on much firmer ground than they actually are, when the data literally doesn't exist yet, and coming off as ideologically committed to a certain answer regardless of what the facts may or may not end up being. Which gives fuel to people profiting off of raising a moral panic about trans people and doing petty and malicious things like banning kids from sports. If the data doesn't exist yet, and it appears not to in scientific studies, then you are basing your own ad-hoc reckoning on incomplete data yourself. Being ideologically committed to not harming people is a good ideological commitment. There does not seem to be the same level of sureness that you are committing to. Alongside prison stuff it is evident that sexual assault is endemic across the caceral system, it is more vital that this is resolved through either its annihilation or reform so radical as to make no difference, than it is to fret that a vastly rare occurance may become commonplace.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:14
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Hey Koos I got a wild idea for even the bare minimum of they're not really engaging. If there is a pretty direct question asked and the just asking questions guy refuses to ever engage with a pointed challenge on their position and instead immediately ignores it to focus on "pls dont insult me" maybe they aren't actually engaging?
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Apr 17, 2022 13:15
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Cease to Hope posted:You have entirely misplaced the blame here. The outrage is about trans people existing full stop, and there's no evidence that regulations that require HRT have done anything to allay it. The fact that states are passing anti-trans sports bills targeting single-digit numbers of pre-pubescent children is proof that this is not "fueled" by supposed concerns about "competitive integrity". I don't agree. I think there exist a notable number of hateful bigots that just hate the existence of trans people. I also think there's a much larger number of undecided people that could be swayed either way and the left has a bit of a credibility problem in their eyes when it consistently refuses to even acknowledge the mere possibility of a problem existing. Call me optimistic, but I don't think half the country consists of orcs.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:16
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Colonel Cool posted:I don't agree. I think there exist a notable number of hateful bigots that just hate the existence of trans people. I also think there's a much larger number of undecided people that could be swayed either way and the left has a bit of a credibility problem in their eyes when it consistently refuses to even acknowledge the mere possibility of a problem existing. Well, you can pretend transphobia isn't as common as it is all you like. It's a free country. In the meantime, why have you assumed that "competitive integrity" is a principle more important than allowing trans people to play in the correct gender of segregated sports? You've taken it for granted that that's true, and I don't see any reason to go along with that premise.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:18
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Colonel Cool posted:I don't agree. I think there exist a notable number of hateful bigots that just hate the existence of trans people. I also think there's a much larger number of undecided people that could be swayed either way and the left has a bit of a credibility problem in their eyes when it consistently refuses to even acknowledge the mere possibility of a problem existing. People are overwhelmingly likely to side AGAINST a trans woman being harassed. But yes please lets talk about the left's credibility problem when I can just be told it really wasn't misogny because I can fight off my attackers from my enormous size and powerful testosterone fueled muscles of *checks notes* the average height of a woman.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:19
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Colonel Cool posted:I think you're the one working backwards from the endpoint that trans women are women Bel Shazar posted:If you aren't starting there you are defending a transphobic point of view. You should stop defending transphobic points of view. Colonel Cool posted:I think you're the one working backwards from the endpoint that trans women are women, therefore they should be included in women's sports. Way to literally cut out the back half of the sentence you're quoting. How dishonest!
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Apr 17, 2022 13:21
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Colonel Cool posted:Way to literally cut out the back half of the sentence you're quoting. How dishonest! No I read the whole thing, but none of the rest of it matters if you aren't accepting that women are women, and none of the rest is relevant to women's sports if you do.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:22
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Josef bugman posted:If the data doesn't exist yet, and it appears not to in scientific studies, then you are basing your own ad-hoc reckoning on incomplete data yourself. And there is a reason that I have never made an incredibly firm statement on the subject. I said that some evidence exists to suggest, which I think is a very reasonable statement to make, given our current data.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:22
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Cease to Hope posted:In the meantime, why have you assumed that "competitive integrity" is a principle more important than allowing trans people to play in the correct gender of segregated sports? You've taken it for granted that that's true, and I don't see any reason to go along with that premise. Nope. Haven't done that either. Have in fact said that in the end trans women having a competitive advantage may be the unfairness that we end up living with because the alternatives end up being worse.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:24
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Colonel Cool posted:Way to literally cut out the back half of the sentence you're quoting. How dishonest! There are lots of dishonest arguments that amount to special-pleading reasons why trans women should be excluded from every women's space in particular, often advanced by people who believe that trans women do not belong in any women's spaces because they are not women. There are just as many well-meaning but myopic people who don't notice their own suspicions of trans women form a pattern that has the exact same effect. The latter are still bigots, they just don't like to think of themselves as such. Colonel Cool posted:Nope. Haven't done that either. Have in fact said that in the end trans women having a competitive advantage may be the unfairness that we end up living with because the alternatives end up being worse. So what, exactly, is the thesis you are arguing? Is there a single declarative statement you're willing to advance as true? Because this sounds like Just Asking Questions.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:25
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If the decision is between trans rights and sportsball, then gently caress sports
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Apr 17, 2022 13:25
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Bel Shazar posted:No I read the whole thing, but none of the rest of it matters if you aren't accepting that women are women, and none of the rest is relevant to women's sports if you do. Should trans women not on HRT be allowed to participate in college+ level women's sports?
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Apr 17, 2022 13:25
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Colonel Cool posted:Should trans women not on HRT be allowed to participate in college+ level women's sports? What are the rules of the a fore mentioned sport?
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Apr 17, 2022 13:27
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Colonel Cool posted:And there is a reason that I have never made an incredibly firm statement on the subject. I said that some evidence exists to suggest, which I think is a very reasonable statement to make, given our current data. Your questioning of things and hypothetical are a firm statement. Even if you do not believe that such a thing is the case, you are still presupposing that something that has no proff could have that level of proof at some point. Alongside that your choice of how to characterise people that are disagreeing with you is, to put it bluntly, rather undercutting your attempts to claim a disinterested position in this instance.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:31
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Colonel Cool posted:Should trans women not on HRT be allowed to participate in college+ level women's sports? Below the professional level (and bear in mind that NCAA D1 and D2 are professional sports in every sense but pay), who cares. If you're not testing people for PEDs, you don't have any business intruding on their medical privacy. It's important that all of these Just Asking Questions fit into a backdrop of politics where regulators are aggressively targeting children and teenagers and other amateurs. Above that, I don't think you have any widespread problems. Can you point to a single trans woman not on HRT who was demanding to be allowed to play at a professional level in women's sports? Because I can point to multiple women, both trans and cis, who've been caught in this witch-hunt. Now. You answer the question you just asked with an affirmative statement (and not another question), or gently caress off.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:32
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Colonel Cool posted:Should trans women not on HRT be allowed to participate in college+ level women's sports? Yes, women should be allowed to compete in women's sports if you're going to have a "women's sports" category.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:37
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Cease to Hope posted:So what, exactly, is the thesis you are arguing? Is there a single declarative statement you're willing to advance as true? Because this sounds like Just Asking Questions. Some evidence exists to suggest that trans women may have some level of competitive advantage in sports and we need to be able to admit that fact and have an honest discussion about it, the results of which may eventually end up being that trans women have too large an advantage to be able to fairly participate in some elite level women's sports, especially sports that emphasize muscle. The left in general and trans people in specific are not well served by aggressively denying this fact and appearing to be detached from reality in the eyes of undecided voters. Conservatives and TERFs have latched onto this issue in particular because, unlike most of the things they say regarding trans people, they've found an issue where they may have some small amount of fact on their side. We should not cede that ground to them.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:51
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Josef bugman posted:Your questioning of things and hypothetical are a firm statement. Even if you do not believe that such a thing is the case, you are still presupposing that something that has no proff could have that level of proof at some point. Alongside that your choice of how to characterise people that are disagreeing with you is, to put it bluntly, rather undercutting your attempts to claim a disinterested position in this instance. I think sufficient evidence exists to support a hypothesis, and it is plausible that that hypothesis may be proved true in the future. And I don't think I'm the person that's had an issue with characterization in this thread lol.
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Apr 17, 2022 13:53
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Colonel Cool posted:Some evidence exists to suggest that trans women may have some level of competitive advantage in sports Come back when you have some evidence that does not label itself inconclusive and not sufficient to make any conclusions in its extract. Because you're using some sketchy stuff to try and force people to accept arguendo that trans women could maybe be dominating sports in some currently-nonexistent hypothetical situation. In the meantime, women's sports continue to be overwhelmingly, incontrovertibly dominated by cis women in reality. Should we exclude cis women from women's sports? Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 13:57
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Cease to Hope posted:Below the professional level (and bear in mind that NCAA D1 and D2 are professional sports in every sense but pay), who cares. If you're not testing people for PEDs, you don't have any business intruding on their medical privacy. It's important that all of these Just Asking Questions fit into a backdrop of politics where regulators are aggressively targeting children and teenagers and other amateurs. The point of the question was to point out that being a woman is, in and of itself, insufficient to gain access to women's sports. Because we have historically used gender as a proxy for physical capability in sports, and we're now starting to realize some ways in which that is starting to break down. Which means we need to make an effort to find the most fair way possible to include people that doesn't destroy the competitive integrity of a protected category of sports. And no. I don't think a non-transitioning trans woman should be allowed to participate in high level women's sports, assuming it's a sport where biological advantages are substantially important. I think it's unfair, I think it's potentially dangerous in certain contact sports, and I think it's horrific optics politically. It seems like an all around terrible idea.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:02
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Colonel Cool posted:I think sufficient evidence exists to support a hypothesis, and it is plausible that that hypothesis may be proved true in the future. And I don't think I'm the person that's had an issue with characterization in this thread lol. If you believe this then you cannot also believe that you haven't made a firm statement though, can you? If I were to claim that everyone who had an avatar may, eventually, snap and kill their family in a murder suicide but base that on one partial study that came to no firm conclusions I would be being blatantly paranoid, wouldn't I? No, I believe that your language has still been extremely negative towards people disagreeing with you, even if it is a modicum more polite. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 14:03
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you are literally excluding trans women for what you believe to be feminist reasons
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Apr 17, 2022 14:04
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Colonel Cool posted:I don't think a non-transitioning trans woman should be allowed to participate in high level women's sports, assuming it's a sport where biological advantages are substantially important. Come back when it's a problem that is actually happening anywhere at all outside of a South Park episode. Because all of the actual examples involve harassing amateur children or women who are on HRT. edit: Wait a loving second. Why are you Just Asking Questions about women on HRT but only making affirmative statements about women who are not?
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Apr 17, 2022 14:05
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Colonel Cool posted:Conservatives and TERFs have latched onto this issue in particular because, unlike most of the things they say regarding trans people, they've found an issue where they may have some small amount of fact on their side. We should not cede that ground to them. So we should not cede that ground by banning trans athletes. Hmm yes, very well reasoned and thought provoking.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:07
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"Trans women are women, but shouldn't be allowed to participate in society as women" says cis dude who totally isn't a transphobe, he swears!
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Apr 17, 2022 14:09
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Anyone who is Very Concerned about trans women dominating women's sports should be required to name a trans woman currently dominating her sport.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:11
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Cease to Hope posted:Come back when you have some evidence that does not label itself inconclusive and not sufficient to make any conclusions in its extract. Because you're using some sketchy stuff to try and force people to accept arguendo that trans women could maybe be dominating sports in some currently-nonexistent hypothetical situation. If you don't think the evidence is sufficient to even raise the possibility then that's your prerogative. I disagree, obviously. And I don't find the fact that a tiny and historically oppressed group of people hasn't been able to dominate yet in a well established professional industry drawing from a pool of fifty percent of the population over the course of a decade or so to be particularly convincing.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:12
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Cease to Hope posted:Anyone who is Very Concerned about trans women dominating women's sports should be required to name a trans woman currently dominating her sport. chelsea manning 
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Apr 17, 2022 14:14
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Cease to Hope posted:Come back when it's a problem that is actually happening anywhere at all outside of a South Park episode. Because all of the actual examples involve harassing amateur children or women who are on HRT. I was literally answering my own hypothetical (which was illustrating a point that gender identity is not the only relevant factor in sports) because you asked me to. Ask me any question you want. The answer to a lot of them will probably be "we don't have sufficient data to be able to say for certain, yet". I'm pretty confident in making the statement that trans women who aren't on HRT shouldn't be participating in high level women's events, though. Which is an actual position that multiple people in this thread have expressed!
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Apr 17, 2022 14:18
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moonmazed posted:chelsea manning Embarrassing the US government is co-ed. Colonel Cool posted:And I don't find the fact that a tiny and historically oppressed group of people hasn't been able to dominate yet You are concerned now, at the same time that the bigots you acknowledge are trying to use this as red meat to fire up their base, rather than in this hypothetical future where ~competitive integrity~ is somehow threatened. You need to re-examine why you're so concerned about yet another moral panic about GNC women in women's spaces. Those bigots haven't been right any of the last 100 times.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:19
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Colonel Cool posted:If you don't think the evidence is sufficient to even raise the possibility then that's your prerogative. I disagree, obviously. There have been trans people in sport for over the last 47 years my friend. They still are not dominating and still did not spring into existence from nowhere in the early 2000s. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 14:19
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Colonel Cool posted:I was literally answering my own hypothetical (which was illustrating a point that gender identity is not the only relevant factor in sports) because you asked me to. Ask me any question you want. Yes, multiple people in this thread don't think trans women should be treated as women, this is true.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:21
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still waiting to hear about a trans woman athlete who is dominating women's sports and there's just complete silence
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Apr 17, 2022 14:23
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