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Whether it's the same old rot or more recent degredation, this whole red state trans oppression is really highlighting the failure our politics, our Healthcare, and our culture. As if covid hadn't already made that screamingly obvious. And we're only becoming more and more entrenched in a forever culture war that is and will stop us from achieving any constructive change even in a fair and functioning democracy.
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Apr 16, 2022 22:34
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BRJurgis posted:Whether it's the same old rot or more recent degredation, this whole red state trans oppression is really highlighting the failure our politics, our Healthcare, and our culture. As if covid hadn't already made that screamingly obvious. And we're only becoming more and more entrenched in a forever culture war that is and will stop us from achieving any constructive change even in a fair and functioning democracy. Balkanization starting to look like a super reasonable option.
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Apr 17, 2022 00:05
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Bishyaler posted:Balkanization starting to look like a super reasonable option. Why do we have to entertain this thought again? Balkanization of the US would lead to mass suffering not seen since the civil war. your definitions of "reasonable" are pretty delusional. I swear to god it's like 2000's era edgelord posting has sprung anew like a phoenix from the ashes. Except for this time instead of libertarians, it's all "communists".
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Apr 17, 2022 01:39
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I’m not sure what you are getting at as mass suffering is already happening in the US.
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Apr 17, 2022 02:20
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:I’m not sure what you are getting at as mass suffering is already happening in the US. I'm not sure what you're getting at. Because it is happening, doing more would be justified? Do you live in the US?
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Apr 17, 2022 02:32
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:I’m not sure what you are getting at as mass suffering is already happening in the US. Do you really not understand that the most vulnerable in the reddest states maybe depend on federal aid at higher levels than anyone else and what would happen if that were removed? In many cases it's the only thing keeping them alive. This nonstop doomer posting is loving tedious. Just admit you want society to fully collapse to bring about your fantasy revolution. And before you say "it already has", no it loving hasn't. To be specific for just one example, the federal government is defending families in the Texas anti-trans suits. Do you admit that is correct and good? Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 02:42
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Main Paineframe posted:You're correct here, but there is one extremely important caveat that you're missing: both voting and violence require a large amount of strong public support to be effective. What moved the needle on things like civil rights and labor rights were large-scale movements that had the numbers and reach necessary to seriously upset things across the country if they wanted to. The implicit threat of "if you don't let us get what we want through fair voting, we'll get it by whatever means necessary" only works when a movement can muster a large amount of people in the first place. And when I say "strong public support", I don't mean that people will say on a poll that they support the issue position or movement. I mean when people consider the issue a major political priority, to the point where they're willing to become a single-issue voter over it or even get arrested over it. If your movement is actually pretty small and has very little strong public support, then you're gonna find that violence is no more effective than voting. This does not seem to be entirely accurate. It can often also be smaller scale/support movements coupled with being focused at the right area and at the right time. For instance the IRA never had large scale support in Britain but still managed to create a negotiated peace via external pressure and terror attacks. You also have various different union groups willing to not work and cost people in charge vast sums to effect change. It seems as if many people in this thread are. However the bigger argument appears to be about how any movement from above to resolve problems is considered too much for some and I was just wondering where that came from.
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Apr 17, 2022 07:55
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Bishyaler posted:Balkanization starting to look like a super reasonable option. Okay, Alabama has the bomb. Now what?
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Apr 17, 2022 13:41
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Bishyaler posted:Balkanization starting to look like a super reasonable option. We also did a big civil war to keep this from happening. Finally, you have in the past said there isn't much difference between the two parties other than decorum - so I don't know what problem you think this would solve. Wouldn't the Dems just create a new GOP, to continue to have villains to blame their conservativism on?
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Apr 17, 2022 14:22
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Sarcastr0 posted:Wouldn't the Dems just create a new GOP, to continue to have villains to blame their conservativism on? We need a strong GOP to prevent the formation of an even stronger, more racist GOP.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:30
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Bishyaler posted:Balkanization starting to look like a super reasonable option. Bishyaler posted:Leftist generally advocate for revolution, yes. And it isn't hard to make the argument that both parties are fascist when they are letting white refugees in but stopping everyone else, funding racial purity police who perform sterilizations without consent, running concentration camps for brown people, run drone terror programs against muslim majority countries, organize coups in socialist countries, and arm fascist groups overseas. virtualboyCOLOR posted:I’m not sure what you are getting at as mass suffering is already happening in the US. This is flippant. The mass suffering in the US from poverty, lack of access to healthcare, inhumane treatment of immigrants, erasure of transgender and women’s rights, and beyond does not go away in a “yes we should have mass public executions of thousands or millions of people / civil war 2.0 / balkanization is reasonable” horror show people are talking about here. There is very little reason to believe that violent revolution leads to any material improvement to literally any demographic during the period of the revolution. The recent track record of armed conflict around the world demonstrates this pretty well. While I disagree, I can at least understand the perspective of feeling like armed confrontation is a terrible but inevitable end point of our current divisions and the rise of authoritarian support in this country. What I can’t understand is people advocating for it as a positive active measure preferable to the existing status quo.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:12
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Bishyaler posted:Balkanization starting to look like a super reasonable option. I dont think that is likely to happen. If we split, the "confederacy" (or whatever passes as the confederacy) immediately declares war against the "union" government, to bring "freedom, Jesus and free markets" to the "godless commies".
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Apr 17, 2022 15:14
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Bottom Liner posted:
While this is a very valid point, the inverse is also true. People in blue states that want to enact reasonable gun control or reasonable restrictions on business are unable to do so because of our extremely right wing federal judiciary. Balkanization would likely cause immense problems, but it would also solve some immense problems too. And this isn't even touching on the insane and ever growing disparity in power between rural and urban communities in this country. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 16:17
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:While this is a very valid point, the inverse is also true. People in blue states that want to enact reasonable gun control or reasonable restrictions on business are unable to do so because of our extremely right wing federal judiciary. So.... do you think that it would overall be a good thing? I can't tell if you're advocating for it or not.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:22
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I think it's being framed vs the current events of the Dems eating poo poo, the Republicans using every procedural dirty trick they can think of to seize power and becoming increasingly effective due to the former, and the inevitable ecofascist tendencies that will emerge with worsening global material conditions due to ongoing anthropogenic climate change.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:40
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I think it would be worse (possibly much worse) in the short term but better in the long term. Not only would it make more just representation possible by destroying the US Senate, anything that undermines the ability of the US military to forcefully enact inhumane exploitation on a global scale should be considered a decent trade off to the potential short term decline in material conditions for US citizens. Just my opinion though, and I'm open to different perspectives. E: more and more I find myself asking the question "is the existence of the American Federal government a net benefit for humanity?" and I find fewer and fewer reasons to believe the answer to that question is a Yes. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 16:42
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Sarcastr0 posted:Balkanization didn't end great for the Balkans. Ideally there would be more than just blue US and red US because living in those wouldn't solve any problems, and I think there would be a moral obligation to rescue vulnerable people from those areas. Just throwing ideas around to avoid the impending one-party fascist state we'll be experiencing 2024 or sooner. Harold Fjord posted:I think it's being framed vs the current events of the Dems eating poo poo, the Republicans using every procedural dirty trick they can think of to seize power and becoming increasingly effective due to the former, and the inevitable ecofascist tendencies that will emerge with worsening global material conditions due to ongoing anthropogenic climate change. Correct Bishyaler fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 16:50
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Why do we have to entertain this thought again? Balkanization of the US would lead to mass suffering not seen since the civil war. your definitions of "reasonable" are pretty delusional. Your personal feelings aren't really relevant to the current events thread imo. Balkanization is a possible outcome and certainly more likely than the Democrats suddenly create a competent and kind government. The current news cycle has red states negotiating with foreign governments, active and out in the open voter suppression, and legislative plans to detransition trans youth. Doom posting probably isn't to helpful but at least they can recognize reality, good things are not lying in wait for the American future friend.
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Apr 17, 2022 17:47
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Terminal autist posted:Your personal feelings aren't really relevant to the current events thread imo. Balkanization is a possible outcome and certainly more likely than the Democrats suddenly create a competent and kind government. The current news cycle has red states negotiating with foreign governments, active and out in the open voter suppression, and legislative plans to detransition trans youth. Doom posting probably isn't to helpful but at least they can recognize reality, good things are not lying in wait for the American future friend. Why are the fart huffing divinations of online communists relevant to current events? Balkanization is a possible outcome in the same way that Canada invading and becoming our benevolent rulers is a possible outcome. If it did happen, the world will be far more hosed already for it to be better for anyone anywhere for a long time. In actual events, bird flu is spreading and driving up egg prices https://twitter.com/lreiley/status/1515295019447558145 Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 17:55
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Why are the fart huffing divinations of online communists relevant to current events? because when we discuss current events, such as Texas challenging federal supremacy regarding foreign policy, and the refusal of the Biden administration to answer the challenge with anything more than a '...could you please not do that?', people draw conclusions about where this current event is heading in the future. that you find those conclusions distasteful is unfortunate, but your distaste is not an argument.
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Apr 17, 2022 18:17
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:because when we discuss current events, such as Texas challenging federal supremacy regarding foreign policy, and the refusal of the Biden administration to answer the challenge with anything more than a '...could you please not do that?', people draw conclusions about where this current event is heading in the future. You seem to find distate useful as an argument pretty regularly. Drawing conclusions from events is one thing, but drooling over the breakup of the US because a state (Texas even lol) bucks the feds temporarily seems a bit more than that. Was it a sign of the end times when Colorado ignored federal supremacy and legalized weed?
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Apr 17, 2022 18:22
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The idea that any balkanization/revolution will lead into left-wing rule anywhere in the U.S./Post-U.S. is pretty unlikely considering how toothless the American left is in peacetime, much less in wartime. I'm not sure why so many people are seeing it as a better option (regardless of how likely it is in the first place which is...not).
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Apr 17, 2022 18:33
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:You seem to find distate useful as an argument pretty regularly. real shame about how distasteful those conclusions seem! do you have any arguments against them, or are you just complaining about how dare people draw conclusions you don't like? if you'd like to advance the argument that Texas ignoring the federal government as regards foreign policy, immigration specifically, is unlikely to lead to any further horrors, and therefore the federal government should not take action to prevent it, you can absolutely do so. I personally would have a hard time reconciling that stance with your previous 'it is good to use force to prevent fascists from killing people' claim, but who knows, perhaps you can explain why government sending in men with whips to round up immigrants in Texas was more acceptable to you than the idea of trying to stop them.
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Apr 17, 2022 18:46
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DarkCrawler posted:The idea that any balkanization/revolution will lead into left-wing rule anywhere in the U.S./Post-U.S. is pretty unlikely considering how toothless the American left is in peacetime, much less in wartime. I'm not sure why so many people are seeing it as a better option (regardless of how likely it is in the first place which is...not). “The American Left” doesn’t exist, but by the same token neither would Republicans or Democrats in the scenarios we’re describing. If you think the left is weak, imagine Ted Cruz trying to coordinate a blanket distribution, or Nancy Pelosi running a truck farm. Politics as you know them won’t mean poo poo because it’s already so disconnected from the day to day life of most Americans. I’d expect a solidarity to emerge among people regionally and locally, and of a much more leftist variety because ultimately people will prefer to shoot raiders and scavengers than be them. It’s easier to garden than to try and feed people via violence. The tendency to cooperate is much more potent than the desire to raid. Raiders are the anomaly, cooperation is the default.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:39
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selec posted:Politics as you know them won’t mean poo poo because it’s already so disconnected from the day to day life of most Americans. I’d expect a solidarity to emerge among people regionally and locally, and of a much more leftist variety because ultimately people will prefer to shoot raiders and scavengers than be them. It’s easier to garden than to try and feed people via violence. I don't know, something tells me all those Farmers For Trump signs I see aren't going to be swapped out for Farmers for Marx if the country collapses.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:41
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RBA Starblade posted:I don't know, something tells me all those Farmers For Trump signs I see aren't going to be swapped out for Farmers for Marx if the country collapses. No, but they also won’t stop farming or wanting to farm. In the end, people prefer peace over gunfire. If you want to stop a war, shoot generals. The natural inclination of humans is to live and let live, or to cooperate to build better. So yeah, that farmers for Trump guy, in a Balkanized context where Trump is a funny campfire story is going to be a valued member of your community. I mean, you already have more in common with the Farmer for Trump than you do with any given politician no matter their tendency. You’d just both be forced to acknowledge it in the absence of constant propagandization from billionaires.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:47
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RBA Starblade posted:I don't know, something tells me all those Farmers For Trump signs I see aren't going to be swapped out for Farmers for Marx if the country collapses. Low information folks with their noses to the ground and no faith in the powers that be were easily scooped up by Trump. That they could and should be captured by Leftist ideas instead (if not for America's political insanity) is just another failure of our system and culture. Don't get me wrong I remember every house that had a Trump flag, and how long they kept it up too. I make a game of flipping off the ones that still have them.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:48
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Somalia turned into a socialist paradise in the 90s, right? I haven’t googled it yet, just checking here first
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Apr 17, 2022 19:49
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haveblue posted:Somalia turned into a socialist paradise in the 90s, right? I haven’t googled it yet, just checking here first Was Somalia a fully developed nation prior to that? Did they have similar cultural and material issues as we do?
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Apr 17, 2022 19:50
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selec posted:I mean, you already have more in common with the Farmer for Trump than you do with any given politician no matter their tendency. That's the most backhanded statement I've ever heard lmao
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Apr 17, 2022 20:05
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RBA Starblade posted:That's the most backhanded statement I've ever heard lmao A guy who makes about as much money as I do, breathes the same air, shops the same places I do, sends his kids to the same school, pays the same local taxes and is affected by the same local economic conditions Vs Somebody who doesn’t live or work near me, who doesn’t do all or maybe even any of their own shopping, is not subject to the same laws I am, has access to resources I don’t even know about, is in the contact list for powerful and rich people, is on TV when they want to be. It’s not even close.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:10
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selec posted:A guy who makes about as much money as I do, breathes the same air, shops the same places I do, sends his kids to the same school, pays the same local taxes and is affected by the same local economic conditions Based on this list the commonality is we are air-breathers, and heck, President Scroob is too.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:16
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One thing I'd like to see in future debates if they happen, and I pray that they do not, is a segment where participants are asked questions like "Would $5 be enough to buy a carton of eggs?" and "What is the average rent where you live/in your district" just because I'm absolutely confident that the answers would be hilarious
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Apr 17, 2022 20:20
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selec posted:I mean, you already have more in common with the Farmer for Trump than you do with any given politician no matter their tendency. You’d just both be forced to acknowledge it in the absence of constant propagandization from billionaires. That sounds nice, but speaking as someone who grew up in an area where a well-known farmer hit one of his undocumented workers while drunk driving and left them in a ditch overnight instead of pulling over to call 911, I feel like I might have more in common with someone like Ilhan Omar on a purely human level and wouldn't magically discover some deep kinship with a guy like that just because billionaires disappeared. Generic American fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 20:25
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Generic American posted:That sounds nice, but speaking as someone who grew up in an area where a well-known farmer hit one of his undocumented workers while drunk driving and left them in a ditch overnight instead of pulling over to call 911, I feel like I might have more in common with someone like Ilhan Omar on a purely human level and wouldn't magically get along with a guy like that just because billionaires disappeared. That purely human level and five bucks will get you a foot long at Subway. You won’t get along with him, necessarily, but you would be living cheek by jowl, just as you are now, with people you don’t agree with, just like you are now. The problem isn’t that Farmer for Trump, it’s the enormous wealth and privilege of the class neither of you belong to that makes you and he think you are more different than alike. Ilhan Omar never showed up to our local food pantry, nice as I’m sure she might be. Plenty of Trump voters do show up to volunteer though. Ilhan Omar is, in the most generous interpretation, the exception that proves the rule.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:29
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selec posted:That purely human level and five bucks will get you a foot long at Subway. Not anymore lol, that promotion ended again e: Oh I'm wrong, it started back up!
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Apr 17, 2022 20:35
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I'm pretty sure that if society collapsed those poor misguided Trumpers would start lynching trans kids.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:39
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selec posted:No, but they also won’t stop farming or wanting to farm. first, assume spherical frictionless ideologies. Then the politics become simple. This is some of the smoothest brain insight I have ever read as someone that grew up around dirt poor farmers as well as wealthy as gently caress but pretends to be poor farmers. Both would go to war against what you propose.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:48
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We're never going to make anything better if we stick with our current political dispositions. Don't let the current two party system frame these issues. Even if it's the case now, if we can't even imagine escaping from under it than we never will. That goes for your political enemies whether they're trumpers, liberals, or leftists. Whether we change things or they totally fall apart, that framing has to go away.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:55
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BRJurgis posted:We're never going to make anything better if we stick with our current political dispositions. Don't let the current two party system frame these issues. Even if it's the case now, if we can't even imagine escaping from under it than we never will. That goes for your political enemies whether they're trumpers, liberals, or leftists. Whether we change things or they totally fall apart, that framing has to go away. I'm not registered to any party, and I am not using a two-party system argument. you can't just snap your fingers and pretend existing structures aren't there. whatever solutions to problems we find will have to at least transition from the existing structure. fantasies about tearing it down lead to worse outcomes.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:02
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