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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:first, assume spherical frictionless ideologies. Then the politics become simple. This is some of the smoothest brain insight I have ever read as someone that grew up around dirt poor farmers as well as wealthy as gently caress but pretends to be poor farmers. Both would go to war against what you propose. I grew up in a working class farming community with a large Latino population working the turkey plant. I disagree entirely. Human nature is to cooperate. Strong recommendation for The Dawn of Everything. A lot of folks have very inaccurate priors when it comes to what kind of civilizations humans typically form, rapine and slaughter is the exception to a largely peaceful and cooperative rule. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374157359/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_JGK1Y32VTWSYCD4DV5DC
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Apr 17, 2022 21:03
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selec posted:I grew up in a working class farming community with a large Latino population working the turkey plant. I disagree entirely. I too grew up around a large Latino community in central California. I also grew up around the people that exploited them for labor, and then deported them when they got sick and couldn't work a field or orchard for a few days. Many people do want to cooperate, but it only takes a few to be explorative to ruin it for everyone.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:07
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BRJurgis posted:We're never going to make anything better if we stick with our current political dispositions. Don't let the current two party system frame these issues. Even if it's the case now, if we can't even imagine escaping from under it than we never will. That goes for your political enemies whether they're trumpers, liberals, or leftists. Whether we change things or they totally fall apart, that framing has to go away. I mean if we're imagining a balkanization I'm going to hope to be in or flee for the one least Trumpy and least fashy.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:07
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I too grew up around a large Latino community in central California. I also grew up around the people that exploited them for labor, and then deported them when they got sick and couldn't work a field or orchard for a few days. Many people do want to cooperate, but it only takes a few to be explorative to ruin it for everyone. You haven’t figured out what’s different in the Balkanized situation we’re discussing it sounds like. Who’s around to empower the few when the many all have to depend on each other even more than they do now? When force is not arrogated to a specific class? When all the workers already have guns and a set of expectations of how they will be treated, what will those few do? It only takes a few, which means the effort to shame them into compliance is much lower than it would be in our current situation. Shunning wasn’t only a social punishment. Unless you believe the working class is inherently reactionary (a pretty liberal thing to think, but luckily not true) then a trans person who contributes to the community will be much more popular than an rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:15
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selec posted:You haven’t figured out what’s different in the Balkanized situation we’re discussing it sounds like. Who’s around to empower the few when the many all have to depend on each other even more than they do now? When force is not arrogated to a specific class? When all the workers already have guns and a set of expectations of how they will be treated, what will those few do? What is the scenario you're imagining occurring, specifically? I think everyone's assuming different things.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:16
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RBA Starblade posted:What is the scenario you're imagining occurring, specifically? I think everyone's assuming different things. A regional breakup, with unpredictable historical and contemporary factors drawing borders. Some would retain current power structures, some would ultimately change. But what it would do is drive decision making to a local level, drive the stakes of those decisions up (because you can’t fall back on a culture war to explain why nobody can get winter clothes when somebody can just break into the warehouse and distribute the clothes they find), and reduce the power differential between the management or governing class and workers, and in some cases eliminate it. It would be less violent the less people cling to the idea that they need to personally defend the Hy Vee or Menards or whatever. But we’ll have to wait and see I guess. I think the replacement of local businesses with chains like Wal Mart would make people much less likely to form a militia to defend Wal Mart—it’s not like you uncle owns Wal Mart or it’s management locally are community leaders. So the community rallying to protect the ownership class wouldn’t really be a thing the way it could be. selec fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 21:20
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selec posted:A regional breakup, with unpredictable historical and contemporary factors drawing borders. Some would retain current power structures, some would ultimately change. But what it would do is drive decision making to a local level, drive the stakes of those decisions up (because you can’t fall back on a culture war to explain why nobody can get winter clothes when somebody can just break into the warehouse and distribute the clothes they find), and reduce the power differential between the management or governing class and workers, and in some cases eliminate it. Got it. I wasn't imagining any scenario where one of the Balkanized States of America has a communist revolution, but I also can't imagine one where all the good old boys in the grand old party go for it after things settle down after a hypothetical breakup (especially if they all also have guns), nor one where whatever power structure settles in wouldn't be able to stop a break-in. At least, not one where everyone's peacefully living side by side before or after, anyway.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:28
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RBA Starblade posted:Got it. I wasn't imagining any scenario where one of the Balkanized States of America has a communist revolution, but I also can't imagine one where all the good old boys in the grand old party go for it after things settle down after a hypothetical breakup (especially if they all also have guns), nor one where whatever power structure settles in wouldn't be able to stop a break-in. At least, not one where everyone's peacefully living side by side, anyway. It wouldn’t settle down right away, you have to have the scores settled and the crimes that were previously covered up accounted for, but people prefer quiet to noise. Ultimately administrating is much more important for the longer term success of a movement than guns; you really want to put your money on the people who can get schools open and food distributed, and you’ll see right away who’s focused on that.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:30
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What kind of balkanization are you people even talking about? Even the reddest state is fully a third blue. A quarter of Brooklyn voted for Trump in 2020. I know it's super cool to call for death squads when the vote number rolls over to 51% but I guess my question is where the confederate lines would be drawn in the big imaginary civil war we're cooking up here
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Apr 17, 2022 21:32
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Manager Hoyden posted:What kind of balkanization are you people even talking about? Even the reddest state is fully a third blue. A quarter of Brooklyn voted for Trump in 2020. We won’t know what the salient issue is until it’s right in front of us. I suspect it’s going to be climate migration, but could be any number of things.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:39
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Manager Hoyden posted:What kind of balkanization are you people even talking about? Even the reddest state is fully a third blue. A quarter of Brooklyn voted for Trump in 2020. The Mason-Dixon line's still there
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Apr 17, 2022 21:40
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RBA Starblade posted:The Mason-Dixon line's still there Cool let's burn it all the the ground. Sherman barbeque and all that.  
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Apr 17, 2022 21:47
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Epic High Five posted:One thing I'd like to see in future debates if they happen, and I pray that they do not, is a segment where participants are asked questions like "Would $5 be enough to buy a carton of eggs?" and "What is the average rent where you live/in your district" just because I'm absolutely confident that the answers would be hilarious Those are good! I'd like to see "Were you ever the subject of one of those secret Congressional tribunals for sexual harassment, the outcome of which will be buried for time immemorial?" but I can't imagine anyone being chosen as a debate moderator asking that, or they would've done so during the 2020 Dem primary debates or the GE debates. I'd even settle for a townhall question about it. Also, are you saying that you pray there are no debates ever, or just for the GE? Because the primary debates are both enlightening & hilarious.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:51
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How are u posted:I'm pretty sure that if society collapsed those poor misguided Trumpers would start lynching trans kids. If society collapsed then poor liberals likely would join those poor trumpers in a heartbeat if it meant access to affordable living necessities.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:52
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Willa Rogers posted:If society collapsed then poor liberals likely would join those poor trumpers in a heartbeat if it meant access to affordable living necessities. That seems like the communist revolution outcome would just be even less likely then
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Apr 17, 2022 21:54
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RBA Starblade posted:That seems like the communist revolution outcome would just be even less likely then Yeah, it honestly doesn't have high hopes considering how many times and examples we have that when people are forced to choose socialism vs barbarism they choose the latter. We are heading to conditions that make a revolution likely but it's more likely to be the fascist one.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:57
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RBA Starblade posted:That seems like the communist revolution outcome would just be even less likely then One of the best arguments against the possibility of communist revolution are historical accounts of how quick liberals cozied up to fascist regimes with their promises of rules, order, and maintaining their previous way of life.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:58
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RBA Starblade posted:That seems like the communist revolution outcome would just be even less likely then As likely as counting on electoralism for systemic change, I'd reckon.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 22:02
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Willa Rogers posted:As likely as counting on electoralism for systemic change, I'd reckon. I'm glad we agree, at least partially
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Apr 17, 2022 22:03
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RBA Starblade posted:I'm glad we agree, at least partially Then do you think there is hope of any description for systemic solutions?
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Apr 17, 2022 22:06
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Hope is just a tool, a personal coping mechanism, and is worse than useless if it isn't accompanied by some sort of agency or action. The posts about how our terrible fellow humans (of whatever label) will never allow anything better are pretty useless too though. Its the systems that we buy into that capture us. I think a measure of faith in humanity is necessary. Faith in people not systems. Without that mindset you'll find better things are always indeed impossible. Not a direct response to Josef, just triggered by the word hope.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:14
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Going to quote myself from yesterday afternoon. If posters would rather spend their Sunday afternoon arguing broad ideology and hypotheticals about US balkanization instead of current events, fine I guess. As long as it doesn't devolve into sniping, gotchas, insinuations that people who disagree with you are fascists etc. Thanks.Fritz the Horse posted:If you can't participate in this discussion without insinuating posters you disagree with are fascists etc that's a good sign it's going nowhere productive. Considering this thread has generated about twenty reports so far today and the arguments don't appear to be going anywhere in particular, it's probably time to wrap it up and move onto something more concretely related to current events instead of broad ideological arguments, sniping, and gotchas.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:23
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Fritz the Horse posted:Going to quote myself from yesterday afternoon. If posters would rather spend their Sunday afternoon arguing broad ideology and hypotheticals about US balkanization instead of current events, fine I guess. As long as it doesn't devolve into sniping, gotchas, insinuations that people who disagree with you are fascists etc. Thanks. Why is it fine that a group of users get to derail the thread with a counterfactual hostile to all discussion of current events?
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Apr 17, 2022 22:28
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It's a slow Easter Sunday and it doesn't seem like there's much in the way of pressing Current Events to talk about so heck,
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Apr 17, 2022 22:37
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Srice posted:It's a slow Easter Sunday and it doesn't seem like there's much in the way of pressing Current Events to talk about so heck, Nothing to talk about?! What are you talking about dude? It's about to be the 147th anniversary of the breakup of the whiskey ring.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:42
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The conversation was spawned from a "current event" (Texas negotiating with a foreign power) so I don't see why anyone would object anyway.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:43
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Discendo Vox posted:Why is it fine that a group of users get to derail the thread with a counterfactual hostile to all discussion of current events? Every current event discussion ends up being discussed as why we need a communist revolution. It's tedious and pointless.
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Apr 17, 2022 22:47
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Nothing to talk about?! What are you talking about dude? It's about to be the 147th anniversary of the breakup of the whiskey ring. And I'll be ready to talk about it properly on the exact day 
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Apr 17, 2022 22:52
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"It's a slow sunday" if you have no sources of information other than your personal twitter feed and the forums. Literally open any newspaper and there are things actually happening in the world that are more relevant than the fifteenth autocratic fantasy fanfiction festival. Off the top of my head, A hit piece was deployed in Politico with the backing of the food industry to reorganize the FDA. This is a really loving big deal, and a bunch of senators from both parties are making noise about restructuring the agency (or even splitting part of it off) before the end of the year. The Washington Post employee union released a report alleging, among other things, a systematic failure to protect minority employees. Puerto Rico(perhaps you have forgotten them) has just formally exited bankruptcy....and there is now a massive, unexplained power outage affecting large parts of the island, as its electric utility enters separate bankruptcy negotiations. There have been multiple mass shootings over the weekend in South Carolina. I think there was a single post about the SC shootings. Otherwise, none of the above was discussed, because the people who want to discuss things that are actually happening correctly view this as the thread where toxic assholes promote their balkanization fantasies. People post about other stories and it is immediately drowned out by the thousandth iteration of the same conflict-seeking bullshit.
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Apr 17, 2022 23:16
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Every current event discussion ends up being discussed as why we need a communist revolution. It's tedious and pointless. and as soon as someone presents a compelling argument the status quo can address these current events in a manner beyond 'unconditional surrender to fascism', it will stop being a relevent observation. it's a little like discussing child concentration camps was back before Biden was elected: the status quo is thoroughly indefensible, but some people feel obliged to defend it regardless, and so are reduced to complaining about how dare people point out its indefensibility.
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Apr 17, 2022 23:22
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Discendo Vox posted:"It's a slow sunday" if you have no sources of information other than your personal twitter feed and the forums. Literally open any newspaper and there are things actually happening in the world that are more relevant than the fifteenth autocratic fantasy fanfiction festival. Off the top of my head, Was this passive aggressive preamble really needed when you could have just linked some current events you wanted to talk about in the first place? What's the deal? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 23:27
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Srice posted:Was this passive aggressive preamble really needed when you could have just linked some current events you wanted to talk about in the first place? What's the deal? It's necessary because Discendo Vox posted:People post about other stories and it is immediately drowned out by the thousandth iteration of the same conflict-seeking bullshit.
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Apr 17, 2022 23:35
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Discendo Vox posted:It's necessary because I'm afraid I just don't get how being passive aggressive over how folks aren't discussing the exact stuff you want discussed fixes that!
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Apr 17, 2022 23:43
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Srice posted:I'm afraid I just don't get how being passive aggressive over how folks aren't discussing the exact stuff you want discussed fixes that! Good thing I wasn't asking for folks to discuss the "exact stuff I want", so much as literally any actual current events, as opposed to broad ideology and hypotheticals about US balkanization!
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Apr 17, 2022 23:54
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Willa Rogers posted:If society collapsed then poor liberals likely would join those poor trumpers in a heartbeat if it meant access to affordable living necessities. "Liberals would be just as bad as Trumpers on trans rights" hasn't really been my experience, but I'm sure that would all change after the glorious socialist Balkanization of the United States. selec posted:Unless you believe the working class is inherently reactionary (a pretty liberal thing to think, but luckily not true) then a trans person who contributes to the community will be much more popular than an rear end in a top hat. I suspect that, much like today, a trans person who couldn't disappear into the crowd would have to go above and beyond their cis peers to be tolerated. Forget popular.
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Apr 17, 2022 23:55
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Discendo Vox posted:People post about other stories and it is immediately drowned out by the thousandth iteration of the same conflict-seeking bullshit. It isn't conflict-seeking unless you're opposed to discussing ways to mitigate the damage from certain political outcomes in America. I don't believe anyone has brought forward a workable long-term solution to the Texas situation, don't you care about trans kids? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 23:57
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Discendo Vox posted:Good thing I wasn't asking for folks to discuss the "exact stuff I want", so much as literally any actual current events, as opposed to broad ideology and hypotheticals about US balkanization! Okay. How does being passive aggressive towards folks get that done? In your post with all those links you insinuated that I don't read the news (Which to be clear, is a pretty rude thing to say towards anyone in a subforum dedicated to politics. Anyone who cares enough to discuss politics that they post about it in a dead gay forum no doubt reads the news to some degree!) so of course I'm gonna focus on that insult instead of the stuff you linked and that seems to make the problem worse, y'know?
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Apr 18, 2022 00:06
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Srice posted:Okay. How does being passive aggressive towards folks get that done? In your post with all those links you insinuated that I don't read the news (Which to be clear, is a pretty rude thing to say towards anyone in a subforum dedicated to politics. Anyone who cares enough to discuss politics that they post about it in a dead gay forum no doubt reads the news to some degree!) so of course I'm gonna focus on that insult instead of the stuff you linked and that seems to make the problem worse, y'know? Posts that simply complain about white noise venting or circular slapfights drowning out actual event discussion are usually met with "be the change you want in the thread", much like complaints about imageless-derails in PYF image threads or something. And it's not entirely unreasonable even when the complaint is valid. It's generally better form to add "post some images, losers" as a preamble to a set of some on-topic images. Seems like that makes sense here too. Man, Puerto Rico just can't catch a break though. I won't pretend to know enough about their current utility situation to know what's likely going on there, though with poverty and federal neglect I'm willing to expect valid excuses are more likely than the latest Texas grid failures.
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Apr 18, 2022 00:21
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Killer robot posted:Posts that simply complain about white noise venting or circular slapfights drowning out actual event discussion are usually met with "be the change you want in the thread", much like complaints about imageless-derails in PYF image threads or something. And it's not entirely unreasonable even when the complaint is valid. It's generally better form to add "post some images, losers" as a preamble to a set of some on-topic images. Seems like that makes sense here too. similar story to the Texas grid failures; the privatization of the power network has absolutely wrecked any attempts to rebuild fun fact, everyone's favorite Hip Hop Founding Father Musical-Writer is implicated! Lin-Manuel Miranda's daddy's a big wheel in the Puerto Rican politics scene, and he was not above using his son's newfound fame to make sure he was well-positioned to get a piece of the action. Decent article on the subject.
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Apr 18, 2022 00:31
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Discendo Vox posted:Good thing I wasn't asking for folks to discuss the "exact stuff I want", so much as literally any actual current events, as opposed to broad ideology and hypotheticals about US balkanization! Maybe you'd get better engagement with these topics if you didn't raise them so flippantly and condescendingly. Have you checked the Media Literacy thread? There are several ideas in there which could improve your communication skills. Edit: Wait, nevermind. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 18, 2022 02:47
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