US CE Spring 2022: I'm convinced it's useless which is why I argue about it all day every day

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US CE Spring 2022: I'm convinced it's useless which is why I argue about it all day every day

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RBA Starblade: Apr 28, 2008; Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

BiggerBoat posted:

Trap sprung

Bullshit. It's a trick question. Were any of the fires in black neighborhoods? Did they rent or were they homeowners? I can't calculate unbiased math until I am certain it's not breaking the law here.

Welcome to the Grand Old Polynomial

# ? Apr 19, 2022 01:41

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# ? May 23, 2024 10:26

Zachack: Jun 1, 2000

Archonex posted:

The water thing is especially galling since I used the EWG water ratings to discover that there's trace amounts of barium and radium in the water supply here, along with nitrates literally hundreds of times above a safe level from some rear end in a top hat corporation dumping runoff from their farming op up river. Which by the way is going to be even worse now, since the SCOTUS released a ruling saying even so much as a one inch sandbar means you can pretend the other side of the river doesn't exist insofar as polluting the water goes.

Are you drinking water directly out of a river?

quote:

I should also point out that being chemophobic doesn't necessarily mean they're always wrong given that they have a fairly up front water testing system with metrics in place to tell you what the legal standard is and what their personal standard is. When you have chemicals due to industrial runoff being legally dumped into the ground water supply they're actually useful in showing what's going on. Ditto for if the water filtration process is dumping in large amounts of other chemicals to try and sort out things out, even if it literally can't fix the problem with those chemicals. This has occasionally happened where politicians and bureaucrats try to cover their rear end by claiming more cleaning chemicals=safer water. So they do have a use.

This is pretty vague without any details. For example, I looked up a notable recent chemical MCL in California and what's reported for recent chemical tests on EWGs website vs the state's system. EWG and CA both have the same testing data, except EWG (at least as I can tell) just throws all of the numbers in a big pile while CA shows that some of the results are treated water results and some are not. This means that EWG says that a water system has an average pollutant level of X, but the reality to customers is that the average could be zero because it's all treated (in this case by carbon). For an easier comparison, this would be like saying everyone drinking water from a lake or river is constantly getting E coli, except that basic surface water treatment reliably eliminates E coli (because it's harder to deal with giardia and dealing with that should wipe out the E coli), so it's usually irrelevant to the customer.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 03:12

Velocity Raptor: Jul 27, 2007; I MADE A PROMISE
I'LL DO ANYTHING

Stay safe, Louisiana goons. There was a chlorine spill near the DOW plant in Plaquemine, LA. There is a shelter in place order while the spill is cleaned up.
https://www.wbrz.com/news/deputies-shutting-down-roads-near-dow-plant-in-plaquemine-after-chlorine-spill/

# ? Apr 19, 2022 03:33

Canned Sunshine: Nov 20, 2005; CAUTION: POST QUALITY UNDER CONSTRUCTION

Discendo Vox posted:

On heavy metal limits in baby foods, the article combines accurate problems with FDA (they should have set heavy metal limits a long time ago, presuming they had the funding to do so) with inaccurate comparatives (it's not realistically feasible to have zero levels of some heavy metals in any kind of food, including baby foods- comparisons to levels so low they can't be measured in reporting aren't feasible, especially with lead). The article also minimizes agency regulatory actions that have occurred on the issue.

There has been substantial academic research into the impacts of heavy metal exposure in fetuses and children under the age of 5, so �lack of funding� should not be used as a mulligan to in any way justify the FDA not establishing concentration limits for baby food products.

You are correct that it is it realistically feasible to avoid any heavy metal exposure in certain foods, but a significant amount of detected heavy metal concentrations in baby foods are introduced via the use of vitamix additives to cheaply boost the nutrient value of baby food products. This is something that the FDA could target for greater scrutiny and regulation but hasn�t made any efforts so far.

Similarly, we also know that heavy metal exposure occurs due to a particular selection of produce that is used to prepare baby food, such as those produce in contact with dirt. The FDA should put requirements in place that would require any foods utilizing selective produce be blended with other products of negligible contamination. Obviously testing would be required to establish blending concentrations, but it is definitely doable.

We don�t need to achieve non-detect concentrations in baby food in order to improve long-term developmental outcomes, but it really is not excusable that the FDA still has no regulatory limits for anything except arsenic, even though lead and chromium are the two greatest concerns. To put it into a better perspective, the amount of lead a 12 month old consumes will not see a 50% stored lead biological reduction until they are 21.

Archonex posted:

Ditto for if the water filtration process is dumping in large amounts of other chemicals to try and sort out things out, even if it literally can't fix the problem with those chemicals. This has occasionally happened where politicians and bureaucrats try to cover their rear end by claiming more cleaning chemicals=safer water. So they do have a use.

I�m not sure what exactly you think is being added for water treatment, but chemicals being added to potable water need to be certified to NSF-60, and plants are required to maintain audit trails on their use in case the EPA or their assigned local or state delegate wants to conduct an audit.

Water treatment itself is a very straightforward process otherwise though, so if you have particular questions or concerns please feel free to ask me since I work in the industry.

Discendo Vox posted:

To the best of my knowledge PFAS aren't used in any process that would put them in bottled water. The extent and degree of actual harms caused by PFAS aren't well-known and are likely overstated by interested parties, and are also likely specific to individual compounds.

Yeah, there are quite a few PFAS compounds, but biologically they all have similar biological responses. At the moment, they do appear to have some hormone disruption and carcinogenicity, as well as develo impacts on young children.

This is probably a good time to remind everyone that the current scientific methodology when it comes to infant and young childhood exposures is graphically that of an inverted U almost, where exposure risk is high at birth and exponentially declines until around the age of 5, where it then begins to increase again at a more linear rate into adulthood.

There is on-going research into the true risk-exposure relationship because it uses to be that the relationship was linearly increasing starting at birth, and when they realized there was an exponential reduction in exposure risk as a infant or child ages, they simply shifted the linear model over until the child was older.

Anyway, hopefully this is clear since it�s late night phone posting.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 08:48

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

For some inexplicable reason, Dr. Oz has spent the last two days trying to deny the Armenian genocide without actually saying that he is denying the Armenian genocide.

Seems weird that he is totally fine lying about medical science and politics for over a decade, but he can't just tell one lie about how he definitely thinks the Armenian genocide was bad to avoid a situation like this.

This is almost a comically bad way to handle being asked if you think the Armenian genocide actually happened.

quote:

Asked for Oz�s view, campaign spokesperson Brittany Yanick said in a statement: �Dr. Mehmet Oz opposes genocide and the murder of innocent people in all forms."

quote:

The campaign will not play word games and be baited into saying "Armenian genocide" for political purposes.

Asked again if the Armenian genocide happened:

quote:

�The evils of World War I should be commemorated,� Yanick continued. �Dr. Oz looks forward to those important discussions, as well as helping the three million people of Armenia today.�

quote:

His campaign�s response didn�t use the words "Armenian genocide."

His campaign response didn't include the word when copying and pasting the questions and responses from reporters.

quote:

�After Biden recognized it, finally, after all these years of efforts, we�re really concerned about Oz, because we know the power of Turkish lobbying and Turkish interests in U.S. politics,� said the founder of the United Armenian Fund, Harut Sassounian, the publisher of an Armenian newspaper in Glendale, California, which is known as "Little Armenia."

�Dr. Oz has been on TV for years, he�s a well-known person, he�s a celebrity, and Armenians everywhere know he�s of Turkish origin. So it�s caught the eye of Armenians in all 50 states,� Sassounian said.

Sassounian and Oz both received an award honoring successful immigrants in 2008. At the ceremony, Sassounian introduced himself and began to say something about how his ancestors who were killed a century ago would marvel to see them there, but Oz "responded by strongly shaking his head as if he was disapproving," Sassounian said.

Oz�s campaign didn�t respond to a specific question about the incident.

His campaign won't even say, "No, he definitely did not deny the Armenian genocide to a descendant of Armenians killed during the Armenian genocide."

Then, after two days of this, the Dr. Oz campaign released a statement from an Armenian real estate investor to defend him... that never even mentions whether Armenian genocide and just says that it doesn't matter because relations between Armenians and Turks have improved.

quote:

�The events by the Ottoman Turks were horrible. I believe the relationship between Turks and Armenians have improved. Dr. Mehmet Oz believes in the equality of all humans and I respect his desire to help the people of Armenia today,� Batmasian said in a comment relayed by Oz�s campaign.

Denying the Armenian genocide is horrible, but you would think that some sort of self-preservation instinct would kick in and you could just admit it and prevent this from being a constant thing right before the primary.

Polls for the PA senate have seemed to lean Republican and I'm not sure if Oz or the hedge fund investor who became a billionaire by helping companies lower costs through outsourcing jobs out of America would be the weaker candidate against Fetterman. But, it could definitely be a Ron Johnson/Rick Scott/Tommy Tuberville situation, where the state/political climate means even the worst candidate would win by default. So, that is not great either way.

https://twitter.com/aseitzwald/status/1516381288084738051

# ? Apr 19, 2022 14:40

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

^^^ What do you reckon is number of Armenian Republicans living & voting in Pennsylvania?

***

Any guesses as to why the Biden administration didn't immediately appeal the TSA mask ruling by the Trump-appointed judge, and ask for a stay?

Was the administration preparing to let it lapse after the latest extension?

# ? Apr 19, 2022 14:52

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

Never mind; I googled it.

Gonna go out on a limb & state that Oz will not be appreciably impacted by Armenian genocide denial in either the primary or general election.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 14:56

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Willa Rogers posted:

Never mind; I googled it.

Gonna go out on a limb & state that Oz will not be appreciably impacted by Armenian genocide denial in either the primary or general election.

Yeah, it may not impact him significantly politically, but it is still such a bafflingly bad way to handle it.

Also, non-Armenians do care about Armenian genocide denial and it is generally considered a bad thing to believe and defend vigorously. If the political climate makes it inevitable for a Republican candidate to win the Senate race in PA, then that is a bad thing regardless of political impact on Oz's campaign personally.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 15:05

Judgy Fucker: Mar 24, 2006

This article suggests Oz has some directish connections with Erdogan through mutual business and political interests. Don't really know why denying the Armenian Genocide during a U.S. Senate campaign would be politically helpful to Erdogan, but :shrug:

# ? Apr 19, 2022 15:23

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

It might be a simple matter of not getting support, whatever form that may take, if he's not toeing the line.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 15:27

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Harold Fjord posted:

It might be a simple matter of not getting support, whatever form that may take, if he's not toeing the line.

It doesn't even need to be that insidious. He volunteered to join the Turkish military, initially said he would rather just not be allowed to get briefings as a Senator than to give up his Turkish citizenship, and has a lot of money, family, and political ties to Turkey.

Armenian genocide denial in Turkey is a matter of national pride because the founder of the country, Kemal Ataturk, is still a national hero and insanely popular. So, it is official government policy and popular opinion in Turkey to deny that it ever happened because it makes him look bad and stains the founding of the country.

Oz probably just believes it or doesn't want to say it because it would be a huge anti-patriotic thing to do for a Turkish national.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 15:32

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

This appears to be overthinking the impact of the Armenian genocide on a GOP primary race in Pennsylvania. I know Congress is on another weeks-long break but surely there's other news going on.

Like the fact that Karen Bass is dead-even with billionaire republican-turned-dem Rick Caruso in the L.A. mayoral race:

quote:

Voters upset over crime and a seemingly limitless geyser of cash have propelled Rick Caruso to the front of the race for mayor, reshaping the contest and offering Los Angeles a stark contrast between the billionaire developer and his chief rival, Rep. Karen Bass.

If the primary were today, Caruso, with backing from 24% of likely voters, and Bass, with 23%, would move to the November runoff, according to a new UC Berkeley Institute of Governmental Studies poll co-sponsored by the Los Angeles Times.

A contest between the two would feature stark divides of ideology, race and geography as well as different perceptions of Los Angeles and its governance, all of which have begun to emerge in the primary campaign.

The poll, taken from March 29 to Tuesday, marks a major shift in the campaign. Bass held a wide lead over Caruso in February, when the previous Berkeley IGS poll for The Times was conducted. Caruso, who had just entered the race, stood at 8% in that poll. Since then, his support has tripled while Bass has lost ground.

City Council Member Kevin de Le�n, who also had 8% support in February, is now a distant third, at 6%. None of the nine other candidates competing in the June 7 primary had support of more than 2% of likely voters. About 40% of likely voters remained undecided. The runoff between the top two candidates will take place unless one receives more than 50% of the votes in the primary.

Caruso�s ascent results in no small part from nearly $9 million he has spent on television and digital advertising since February. Bass has not yet begun airing television ads.

�Caruso has had the airwaves to himself,� said Mark DiCamillo, director of the IGS poll, who has a wealth of experience in California politics.

�It�s a classic case where he�s getting out in front, and he�s defining himself before his opponents can define him on their terms.... Apparently the advertising is getting people�s attention.�

Many of those ads have focused on crime, including testimonials from former Los Angeles Police Chief William J. Bratton and frequent references to Caruso�s time on the city�s police commission.

Caruso has frequently hyped the scale of crime in the city, saying at a recent debate, for example, that the city was experiencing some of the worst crime in its history.

That is not true, but the poll clearly shows the role the crime issue has played in allowing Caruso, a former Republican who only recently switched his registration to Democrat, to compete in heavily Democratic Los Angeles. His backers in the poll are evenly distributed among Republicans, Democrats and nonpartisan voters, while Bass�s supporters are overwhelmingly Democrats.

The poll asked voters to pick two issues that were key to how they will vote. Homelessness was by far the top issue, cited by 61% of likely voters. No candidate has established an advantage on that topic, the poll showed.

By contrast, among the 38% of likely voters who said crime and public safety were top of mind, Caruso had a 4-1 lead over Bass.

Older voters and conservatives are especially concerned about crime, but the poll also found a high level of concern among Latinos and, in general, among working-class, non-college-educated voters.

Bass leads among voters who cited housing affordability as a top issue. She also leads among voters who listed climate change or racial justice as their top issues, but those were much smaller voter blocs.

The poll also painted a stark portrait of how differently supporters of the two leading candidates view the city�s leadership.

Likely voters divided almost evenly (48% to 46%) between approval and disapproval of Mayor Eric Garcetti, who was first elected in 2013 and can�t run again because of term limits. Those who approve of him favor Bass; those who don�t favor Caruso.

As a result, Bass is positioned as the candidate of continuity, while Caruso is the candidate of change, with crime as the issue driving much voter discontent.

The poll�s findings will probably prompt tough questions in the camps of several current officeholders who thought they had a chance of taking the city�s top job. The low numbers for De Le�n, Council Member Joe Buscaino and City Atty. Mike Feuer are likely to make fundraising, which has already been tough, even more challenging.

De Le�n�s support was at 8% in February. Buscaino and Feuer, who were both at 4% in the February survey, are now at 1% and 2%, respectively.

One new entrant in the race, Gina Viola, a community activist who is a vocal critic of the city�s homelessness policies and has long called for the defunding and abolition of the LAPD, showed 2% support.

The poll, supervised by DiCamillo, was conducted online in English and Spanish among a representative sample of 2,047 registered voters in Los Angeles, of whom 1,380 were deemed likely to vote in June based on their degree of interest in the race and their voting history. The estimated error for the likely voter sample is roughly 3.5 percentage points in either direction. A full description of the poll�s methodology is available on the Berkeley IGS website.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 15:45

Lord of Lies: Jun 19, 2021

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

It doesn't even need to be that insidious. He volunteered to join the Turkish military, initially said he would rather just not be allowed to get briefings as a Senator than to give up his Turkish citizenship, and has a lot of money, family, and political ties to Turkey.

Armenian genocide denial in Turkey is a matter of national pride because the founder of the country, Kemal Ataturk, is still a national hero and insanely popular. So, it is official government policy and popular opinion in Turkey to deny that it ever happened because it makes him look bad and stains the founding of the country.

Oz probably just believes it or doesn't want to say it because it would be a huge anti-patriotic thing to do for a Turkish national.

Your second paragraph is not quite accurate. Ataturk was not involved in the Armenian genocide. He was a lieutenant colonel in Gallipoli at the time, which is at the opposite end of Anatolia.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 15:46

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

I thought that national dems had learned their lesson & were staying out of primary races given their agnosticism toward the PA race but I guess they just can't help themselves:

quote:

National Democrats appear to be picking a favorite in Oregon�s new congressional district

Six of the nine Democrats seeking Oregon�s brand new congressional district have found something to agree on: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other top congressional Democrats should stay out of the race.

In a surprising development, most of the Democrats in the 6th Congressional District primary denounced what they say is an unprecedented move by a political action committee affiliated with national Democrats, the House Majority PAC. They say the PAC has thrown itself into the highly competitive race by purchasing roughly $1 million of ads to help political newcomer Carrick Flynn.

�We strongly condemn House Majority PAC�s unprecedented and inappropriate decision�� the joint statement said. �We call on House Majority PAC to actually stand by our party�s values and let the voters of Oregon decide who their Democratic nominee will be.�

The candidates who signed the statement were state Reps. Andrea Salinas and Teresa Alonso-Leon, former Multnomah County Commissioner Loretta Smith, engineer Matt West, physician Kathleen Harder and cryptocurrency investor and Army veteran Cody Reynolds. They�re all running for a new U.S. House seat given to Oregon as a result of the 2020 Census.

Closely aligned with Pelosi, the House Majority PAC bills itself as �the only PAC focused exclusively on electing Democrats to the U.S. House of Representatives.� The super PAC can raise unlimited amounts of money so long as advertising and other help it offers candidates is not directly affiliated with their individual campaigns. In 2020, the PAC ran several attack ads against Alek Skarlatos, a Republican challenging Democratic U.S. Rep. Peter DeFazio in Oregon�s 4th Congressional District.

But the PAC rarely takes a stance in a competitive primary, according to the candidates who issued the statement Monday.

�This is profoundly unprecedented,� said Robin Logsdon, West�s campaign manager. �They don�t have any respect for the voters here, but I think they will. I don�t think the voters are going to buy it.�

****

Flynn is a Vernonia, Oregon, native who says he grew up poor, but received a scholarship that sent him to the University of Oregon. He later graduated from Yale Law School, and has focused his campaign on his experience advising the federal government on issues like technology and disaster preparedness.

Despite being a political newcomer and comparative unknown, TV and radio ads on Flynn�s behalf have already made his candidacy far more visible than other campaigns. A committee called Protect Our Future PAC has poured nearly $5 million into the effort, including spots touting Flynn�s support for seniors and commitment to public service. The committee is supported by Sam Bankman-Fried, the billionaire founder of a cryptocurrency exchange who lately has shown an intention to get deeply involved in national politics.

Another group, the Justice Unites Us PAC, has reported spending more than $800,000 assisting Flynn. That amount alone is more than Salinas, who has attracted many powerful institutional endorsements in the race, has been able to raise since announcing her run last year.

�It is extremely concerning to see the Democratic establishment influence a primary in support of just one man when our field has so many strong women and women of color,� Salinas said in a statement. �But the stakes of this election couldn�t be higher, and I will continue to share my story with Oregon voters��

Logsdon said Monday he and other campaign operatives aren�t exactly sure what inspired congressional Democrats to back Flynn, but speculated that Bankman-Fried�s fortune played a role.

�Do I know exactly what was exchanged by his people and [House Majority PAC�s] people?� he said. �No, but I can speculate, as can everyone, that promises have been made.�

# ? Apr 19, 2022 15:50

InsertPotPun: Apr 16, 2018; Pissy Bitch stan

Manager Hoyden posted:

Pretty bonkers that even this guy gets that you have to give your supporters something for their vote and supporting lower income people is the best way to do that

every person becomes a politician knowing this, it's basic common sense. but they go to work on their first day rubbing their hands together, excitedly explain this new way of thinking to their new colleagues, and get blank stares. and...eventually...just stop...
they say you can see how you're going to die in the flash right before the light in their eyes goes out forever

# ? Apr 19, 2022 16:40

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

Willa Rogers posted:

Any guesses as to why the Biden administration didn't immediately appeal the TSA mask ruling by the Trump-appointed judge, and ask for a stay?

Was the administration preparing to let it lapse after the latest extension?

I'm not sure if they had been planning to extend it, and I don't know if they knew, but my guess is that they didn't want to make it a public fight because they weren't sure if they could win it in court, or even of they could, how popular it would be.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 17:23

Devor: Nov 30, 2004; Lurking more.

Epicurius posted:

I'm not sure if they had been planning to extend it, and I don't know if they knew, but my guess is that they didn't want to make it a public fight because they weren't sure if they could win it in court, or even of they could, how popular it would be.

People who care a lot one way or the other won't be swayed by the Biden admin's decision

The squishy middle "Hasn't this been going on long enough?" probably move the needle a few points towards Biden when they don't have to put a mask back on after eating their bag of peanuts on Southwest airlines

# ? Apr 19, 2022 17:33

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

Willa Rogers posted:

This appears to be overthinking the impact of the Armenian genocide on a GOP primary race in Pennsylvania. I know Congress is on another weeks-long break but surely there's other news going on.

Like the fact that Karen Bass is dead-even with billionaire republican-turned-dem Rick Caruso in the L.A. mayoral race:

I live in LA and Caruso is spending ridiculous amounts of money.

I have not seen one Bass commerical and Caruso is blanketing my Youtube, TV and radio ads.

Talks about literally nothing but spending money on cops and fighting crime.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 17:42

mrchoupon: Jun 3, 2001

Willa Rogers posted:

I thought that national dems had learned their lesson & were staying out of primary races given their agnosticism toward the PA race but I guess they just can't help themselves:

I almost posted a similar story in the PNW thread. I don�t watch a lot of tv but almost every YouTube video I�ve watched in the last couple of months had an ad for Carrick Flynn. I have seen zero ads for any other candidate. This is a new district from the last census so the ad blanketing and name recognition is going to impact the results more than it already does. I think this one is already a lock for the establishment.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 18:11

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

Jaxyon posted:

I live in LA and Caruso is spending ridiculous amounts of money.

I have not seen one Bass commerical and Caruso is blanketing my Youtube, TV and radio ads.

Talks about literally nothing but spending money on cops and fighting crime.

Also he is absolutely hitting the "scared suburban" segment by specifically saying he won't "defund the police" and he'll do something about "retail theft"

# ? Apr 19, 2022 18:23

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

mrchoupon posted:

I almost posted a similar story in the PNW thread. I don�t watch a lot of tv but almost every YouTube video I�ve watched in the last couple of months had an ad for Carrick Flynn. I have seen zero ads for any other candidate. This is a new district from the last census so the ad blanketing and name recognition is going to impact the results more than it already does. I think this one is already a lock for the establishment.

Flynn is a weird choice for the Super PAC to back. Most of the actual establishment (the Governor, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, Planned Parenthood, the state legislature leaders, Jeff Merkley, and the rest of the congressional delegation from Oregon) has endorsed Andrea Salinas and the district was basically drawn for her.

Even the national establishment seems unhappy:

quote:

One long-time national Democratic strategist called the decision to back Flynn �loving crazy.�

Flynn is completely new to politics, just turned 35, he was homeless for two years before he ended up getting a scholarship to Yale, and he has no family/professional connections to anyone in the Democratic party and he only moved back to Oregon two years ago, so he doesn't have much of any connections locally either.

It's a bizarre situation and, since it is a Super PAC, we don't really know who is specifically making the decisions. The PAC is heavily associated with Pelosi, but why would Pelosi care about a young kid who has never been in politics before when the entire rest of the establishment is backing someone else? For that matter, why would anyone?

Edit: He apparently hasn't even lived in the country for most of the last decade. He has lived in England since basically immediately after he graduated school and only moved back to the U.S. in 2020. Which makes this whole weird scenario even weirder.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Apr 19, 2022

# ? Apr 19, 2022 18:35

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

lmao, Bloomberg gave $32,750,000.00 to House Majority PAC during the last election cycle, in addition to whatever vig he gave the DNC to buy his way into the primary debates.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 19:13

PenguinKnight: Apr 6, 2009

it turns out that only 32 people out of 4.4 million borrowers have had their loans forgiven under the income driven repayment plan.

quote:

Lawmakers have called for an investigation into a troubled student loan cancellation program two weeks after an NPR report revealed the program � designed to help low-income borrowers, and eventually offer them debt cancellation � wasn't living up to its promise.

More than 9 million borrowers are currently enrolled in income-driven repayment (IDR) plans, which are designed to help people who cannot afford to make large monthly payments. The plans promise loan cancellation after 20-25 years. But documents obtained by NPR offer striking evidence that these plans have been badly mismanaged by loan servicers and the U.S. Department of Education.

The documents shed new light on the 2021 revelation that, at the time, 4.4 million borrowers had been repaying for at least 20 years but only 32 had had loans canceled under IDR.

Exclusive: How the most affordable student loan program failed low-income borrowers
INVESTIGATIONS
Exclusive: How the most affordable student loan program failed low-income borrowers
"A recent NPR investigative report found the IDR program is riddled with problems and mismanagement, even worse than the public previously understood, resulting in millions of borrowers becoming unable to obtain debt cancellation," a group of Democratic lawmakers wrote in a letter sent Thursday to Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) Director Rohit Chopra.

Sen. Sherrod Brown of Ohio, Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts and Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois signed onto the letter, which calls for CFPB to "investigate these reports and use all of its authorities to ensure borrowers are accessing IDR program benefits and receive the student loan forgiveness they have earned."

The senators also sent a letter Thursday to U.S. Education Secretary Miguel Cardona, calling for his agency to take action.

"We urge the Department of Education ('ED') to implement an IDR waiver, similar to the ongoing waiver for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness ('PSLF') program, to allow borrowers to access the loan forgiveness they were promised through IDR," the letter says.

NPR Exclusive: Troubled Public Service Loan Forgiveness program will get overhaul
EDUCATION
NPR Exclusive: Troubled Public Service Loan Forgiveness program will get overhaul
These senators aren't alone in their support of an IDR waiver. Earlier this year, more than 100 different advocacy groups cosigned a letter to Cardona demanding a waiver that would retroactively loosen the program's rules.

The problems NPR found with IDR
Under IDR, a monthly payment of $0 for a borrower earning less than 150% of the federal poverty line should still count toward loan cancellation. But NPR obtained a previously unreleased 2016 review of servicers, conducted by the Education Department's office of Federal Student Aid, in which officials warned these $0 IDR payments "are not adequately tracked."

Nearly half of all IDR borrowers are making $0 monthly payments, according to a 2019 analysis by the Center for American Progress (CAP). Not tracking those payments could delay or derail millions of the lowest-income borrowers on their way to loan cancellation.

The documents NPR obtained also revealed other irregularities in how servicers count IDR payments.

For example, if a monthly payment of $100.01 is owed but a borrower pays just $100 � one penny shy of the required amount � three loan servicers said they would still count it as a qualifying payment. But four others indicated they would not.

In response to NPR's original investigation, the Department of Education said, "Borrowers place their trust in us to make sure these plans work the way they were intended to, and we intend to honor that trust. We are aware of historical issues with prior processes that had undermined accurate tracking of eligible payments. The current situation is unacceptable and we are committed to addressing those issues."

What's next for IDR
Implementing an IDR waiver could help put qualifying borrowers back on the path to loan cancellation. But not everyone believes the remedy should fall solely to the Department of Education.

Beth Akers, who studies student loans at the conservative-leaning American Enterprise Institute (AEI), told NPR she supports the idea of IDR � but she blames lawmakers for creating such a difficult suite of programs to implement.

"We're not going to get these programs cleaned up without legislation," Akers said. "The servicers have a thankless job. So does the Department of Education, because they were handed a pile of garbage."

NPR reached out to the CFPB and the Education Department for comment on the letters, and will update this story with their responses.

If the plan was so mis-managed that 32 people qualified for the forgiveness, we need to do away with the loans altogether.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 19:24

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

PenguinKnight posted:

it turns out that only 32 people out of 4.4 million borrowers have had their loans forgiven under the income driven repayment plan.

If the plan was so mis-managed that 32 people qualified for the forgiveness, we need to do away with the loans altogether.

They have apparently already announced a retroactive automatic fix for this.

This is the first time I have ever seen the federal government in general and Biden admin specifically actually quickly fix a problem related to student loans.

It honestly didn't make sense in the first place since they waived the Trump admin PSLF policies and went from 1% approval to 99% approval, but didn't do the same thing for IDR.

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1516489506106621953

# ? Apr 19, 2022 20:01

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

They have apparently already announced a retroactive automatic fix for this.

This is the first time I have ever seen the federal government in general and Biden admin specifically actually quickly fix a problem related to student loans.

It honestly didn't make sense in the first place since they waived the Trump admin PSLF policies and went from 1% approval to 99% approval, but didn't do the same thing for IDR.

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1516489506106621953

Oh wow, that's actually going to affect me, I believe. Thank you, Joe Biden! One small step closer to being free of this hideous debt.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Apr 19, 2022 20:05

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Denying the Armenian genocide is horrible, but you would think that some sort of self-preservation instinct would kick in and you could just admit it and prevent this from being a constant thing right before the primary.

It is extraordinarily difficult for someone of his background who grew up in Turkey and was indoctrinated into Turkish society through university to even start asking questions of the official narrative, so there wouldn�t be an instinct capable of either developing that idea or overriding it even if it had. Depending on what he says he could face prison time and asset seizure in Turkey, too.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 20:15

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

mawarannahr posted:

It is extraordinarily difficult for someone of his background who grew up in Turkey and was indoctrinated into Turkish society through university to even start asking questions of the official narrative, so there wouldn�t be an instinct capable of either developing that idea or overriding it even if it had. Depending on what he says he could face prison time and asset seizure in Turkey, too.

Maybe that's the case, but I would expect somebody who aspires to become a United States Senator to rise above any of that and be held to a higher standard. Genocide denial is genocide denial, even if someone has a vested interest in denying it.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 20:43

BRAKE FOR MOOSE: Jun 6, 2001

mawarannahr posted:

It is extraordinarily difficult for someone of his background who grew up in Turkey and was indoctrinated into Turkish society through university to even start asking questions of the official narrative, so there wouldn’t be an instinct capable of either developing that idea or overriding it even if it had. Depending on what he says he could face prison time and asset seizure in Turkey, too.

Turkish people can read books. This is a weird, racist post. People won't publicly acknowledge it for a lot of reasons, but it's not an uncommon sentiment at all for an educated Turkish ex-pat to recognize the Armenian genocide (and ways in which the present state is hosed, as well).

# ? Apr 19, 2022 20:45

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

How many American politicians, of either party, have openly embraced the word "genocide" to accurately label the treatment of indigenous people?

Biden used it to describe Russia's actions in Ukraine but I don't recall his ever using it in reference to Native Americans.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 20:49

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Willa Rogers posted:

How many American politicians, of either party, have openly embraced the word "genocide" to accurately label the treatment of indigenous people?

Biden used it to describe Russia's actions in Ukraine but I don't recall his ever using it in reference to Native Americans.

Not nearly as many as should acknowledge it (which should be 100%), but there is a shift occurring. I see it today in my work, and here's something from 2020.

https://www.ecowatch.com/democrats-native-american-bill-2647878673.html

I don't believe that commission was established.

I do have hope for this cause, though. Native people are increasingly organizing, doubly so amongst the youth. If we can keep the nation from falling into fascism in 2024 I believe we'll continue to see progress over the next decade. No justice but social justice and climate justice.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 20:56

A big flaming stink: Apr 26, 2010

mawarannahr posted:

It is extraordinarily difficult for someone of his background who grew up in Turkey and was indoctrinated into Turkish society through university to even start asking questions of the official narrative, so there wouldn’t be an instinct capable of either developing that idea or overriding it even if it had. Depending on what he says he could face prison time and asset seizure in Turkey, too.

I'm going to laugh my rear end off if Dr Oz starts to rail against the insidious influence of Gulenists just to complete the weird Turkish politics vibe

# ? Apr 19, 2022 20:57

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

A big flaming stink posted:

I'm going to laugh my rear end off if Dr Oz starts to rail against the insidious influence of Gulenists just to complete the weird Turkish politics vibe

Oz actually has talked about Gulan this week. He said that he's bad, but that the U.S. shouldn't extradite him to Turkey because there isn't any proof he was involved in a coup and "I don't care what Erdogan thinks about that." And then used that as an example of his independence from Erdogan.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 21:00

BRAKE FOR MOOSE: Jun 6, 2001

The "funniest"* thing about Armenian genocide denial is that many reps at the CPPCG literally got together and thought "how can we make absolutely sure this also applies to what happened to the Armenians without saying it outright" and yet, here we are!

*not funny at all

# ? Apr 19, 2022 21:02

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

The "funniest"* thing about Armenian genocide denial is that many reps at the CPPCG literally got together and thought "how can we make absolutely sure this also applies to what happened to the Armenians without saying it outright" and yet, here we are!

*not funny at all

It's basically just a Turkish nationalist thing now. The U.S. wouldn't officially call it a genocide for a long time because Turkey was treated with the same logic as Saudi Arabia - we needed them and it would just piss them off without accomplishing anything - but, after Biden recognized it, the other few remaining holdouts all recognized too. Turkey threw a tantrum and caused some problems, but has mostly accepted that nobody else except them is still going to insist on not calling it that.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 21:06

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

How are u posted:

Not nearly as many as should acknowledge it (which should be 100%), but there is a shift occurring. I see it today in my work, and here's something from 2020.

https://www.ecowatch.com/democrats-native-american-bill-2647878673.html

I don't believe that commission was established.

Let's take a glance at that legislation's status, reintroduced in 2021 under a Dem Congressional majority & a Dem presidency, and which only covers Indian boarding schools, diluting the term as "cultural" genocide:

Oh, and the legislation, if passed, results in an inquiry into how it happened.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 21:08

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

This is a good WaPo op-ed on American hypocrisy when it comes to the G word:

quote:

On April 24, 2015, the centennial of the start of the Armenian genocide, Armenians in Colorado stood shoulder to shoulder with indigenous peoples of the Americas on the grounds of the Colorado state Capitol for the unveiling of a memorial recognizing the Armenian genocide. A representative of the Ute Nations, some of the indigenous peoples of what is now Colorado, offered words in recognition of the common experience of Armenians and indigenous peoples.

Last weekend, Colorado�s Armenian community gathered again at the state Capitol memorial, a replica of a medieval monument recently destroyed in an ongoing act of Armenian erasure. This month�s commemoration differed from previous years. This year, Joe Biden became the first U.S. president to formally recognize the Armenian genocide.

While one official statement cannot eliminate fears of another genocide or the pain of losing millions of Armenian, Assyrian, Pontic Greek, Yazidi civilians and their indigenous homelands during the 1915-1923 genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman Empire, Biden�s proclamation made hope for justice more imaginable and the intergenerational Armenian trauma slightly more manageable.

Now, it is time for Biden and the United States to take those sentiments and look inward.

Denial of the genocide against indigenous peoples by the United States is rampant. The massacre of Native peoples � from Mystic River, Gnadenh�tten and Sacramento River to Bear River, Sand Creek, Camp Grant and Wounded Knee (and the fact that most readers have probably never heard of these) � is evidence of American amnesia about its homegrown genocide.

Multiple forced marches and removals � the most infamous being the Trail of Tears and the Long Walk � were precursors to the forced death marches of Armenians to the Deir ez-Zor desert that now stand condemned by Biden. The kidnapping, torture, rape and murder of indigenous children in the United States and missionary manual labor schools are equally condemnable to the ethnic cleansing, slaughter and turkification against Armenian children by the Ottomans � practices now recognized as genocide under the international Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Native nations now surrounded by the United States still await Biden�s proclamation and reparations for those crimes against humanity.

In some ways, America has made superficial efforts to do what Turkey, which denies the very existence of Armenian genocide, is so far from doing. At least the United States acknowledges Native nations as indigenous peoples, although it refuses to implement the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Turkey denies that Armenians are indigenous people in their homelands.

The United States has laws to protect indigenous peoples� sacred sites, albeit often ignored in places such as the Black Hills and Bears Ears, while Turkey continues to erase Armenians� heritage sites and denies their antiquity. Turkey�s obsession with erasure is so brazen that even the Armenian Tiara adorning 2,000-year-old statues at the Nemrut Dağ World Heritage Site is rebranded in official Turkish publications as �Five-spiked Tiara.�

U.S. policy toward indigenous peoples possesses the veneer and cachet of greater civility, including the recent appointment of Deb Haaland to serve as interior secretary. What is missing from U.S. practice is any formal recognition of the systematic crimes committed against Native nations and the ongoing damage that persists through extractive industries, land theft, missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and the denial of genuine self-determination for indigenous peoples under international law. What is missing from both countries is any acknowledgement that their societies and economies remain the beneficiaries of genocide.

Despite Turkey�s threats that diplomatic relations with the United States will be damaged by Biden�s proclamation, it is obviously easier for Washington to recognize the Armenian genocide than to hold itself to account for genocidal U.S. practices. Both Turkey and the United States try to control the production of the historical record to sanitize, rationalize or erase their genocidal records. Despite these futile attempts, the Chinese writer Lu Xun reminds us: �Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood.�

The spirit and future of the Armenian people, as well as the indigenous peoples of the Americas, springs from and runs with the land, and thus, it will be forever. Perhaps Biden�s proclamation is a small step in acknowledging that truth.

And yes: It's terrific that Biden appointed Haaland as Secretary of the Interior, but that's kind of a floor, not a ceiling, when it comes to native rights & reparations.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 21:16

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

Turkish people can read books. This is a weird, racist post. People won't publicly acknowledge it for a lot of reasons, but it's not an uncommon sentiment at all for an educated Turkish ex-pat to recognize the Armenian genocide (and ways in which the present state is hosed, as well).

I�m from Turkey and grew up with a very similar background. I�m sorry if I�m racist against myself. It�s certainly possible for a Turkish person to obtain the reading and understand that Turkey committed genocide against the Armenians, but there are a lot of structural things working against that which make it unlikely we would see the hypothetical scenario described (where Oz admits to Armenian genocide), that�s what I�m trying to say.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 21:18

BiggerBoat: Sep 26, 2007; Don't you tell me my business again.

A big flaming stink posted:

I'm going to laugh my rear end off if Dr Oz starts to rail against the insidious influence of Gulenists just to complete the weird Turkish politics vibe

I always find it odd that most conservatives are always telling celebrities to shut the gently caress up about politics and poo poo but it seems like 90% of the ones that run for and are elected to office are Republicans. They elected a reality TV star president. I can't think of too many democrats that made their bones in the entertainment industry. Al Franken I guess. But the GOP is rife with them.

"Hell yeah, that guy was on the Tee Vee!"

# ? Apr 19, 2022 21:19

selec: Sep 6, 2003

mawarannahr posted:

I�m from Turkey and grew up with a very similar background. I�m sorry if I�m racist against myself. It�s certainly possible for a Turkish person to obtain the reading and understand that Turkey committed genocide against the Armenians, but there are a lot of structural things working against that which make it unlikely we would see the hypothetical scenario described (where Oz admits to Armenian genocide), that�s what I�m trying to say.

It seems like a dumb move to have such an obvious soft spot that you can put him in a box during a debate. Somebody�s gonna make him either say it was genocide or deny it, and he�s got no winning moves from the sound of it.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 21:24

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# ? May 23, 2024 10:26

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

The "funniest"* thing about Armenian genocide denial is that many reps at the CPPCG literally got together and thought "how can we make absolutely sure this also applies to what happened to the Armenians without saying it outright" and yet, here we are!

*not funny at all

Also that the U.S., which took almost 40 years to sign on, only did so after conditioning its ratification on a grant of immunity from prosecution, which makes our performative outrage about other countries all the more bizarre.

# ? Apr 19, 2022 21:24

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US CE Spring 2022: I'm convinced it's useless which is why I argue about it all day every day

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