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Lib and let die posted:I'm sure if you guys keep screaming "NAKED RETALIATORY GESTURE" and "FAR-RIGHT GOVERNMENT" over again, it'll start to make sense to the rest of us why this corporate fiefdom with no real governmental oversight is a good thing, actually Mellow Seas posted:we are talking about zoning and the provision of utilities. Disney does not get to enforce its own laws in RCID.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:30
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Xombie posted:Do you understand that this is why people are defending Disney? Because now DeSantis is setting the precedent of direct retaliation against companies that do act with any positive action opposite the GOP culture war. Republicans have now decided they don't need to make "wokeness" illegal, they can just directly punish you financially for "being woke". Should my takeaway from this be that if this were being done by a Democratic state administration, that none of the issues with the tax burden being shifted to citizens etc would be a concern? Like, let's completely divorce motivation from action: would the same arguments be made about why it's a bad idea for Florida, the workers in and around Disney, and the tourism economy in general if Governor Gillum were doing this because no company should be allowed to be its own government?
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Apr 22, 2022 15:31
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Mellow Seas posted:The thing of it is that the naked retaliatory gesture and far-right government actually exist, and the "corporate fiefdom with no real government oversight" is some stupid poo poo you think exists, but actually its about valuing the aesthetics of anti-corporatism more than valuing the actual real impact to real working class people who really exist in real life sure, there's going to be a steep cost of living increase for the residents of the orlando metropolitan area, but how can i incorporate this into my brand? Lib and let die posted:Should my takeaway from this be that if this were being done by a Democratic state administration, that none of the issues with the tax burden being shifted to citizens etc would be a concern? i feel confident in saying that the democrats wouldn't try to upset local government operations out of purely aesthetic concerns, let alone in retaliation because the corporation called the governor out for hating gay kids too much haveblue posted:Scrip has everything to do with being a company town. Any of the Disney employees who live in the RCID can take their pay and go anywhere else in the country and spend it on whatever they want. A real company town doesn't let you do that no, a company town is when the company operates an incorporated municipality owned by the company. there's a town, it is operated by the company, thus a company town. company towns may or may not use scrip, this is the part that people remember the most, but the thing that defines a company town is if the town is run directly by the company. hershey, pa is one of the most famous company towns in america and the workers were paid in USD, not scrip. as a subsidiary of disney, RCID is a company town Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 15:32
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Xombie posted:Do you understand that this is why people are defending Disney? Because now DeSantis is setting the precedent of direct retaliation against companies that do act with any positive action opposite the GOP culture war. Republicans have now decided they don't need to make "wokeness" illegal, they can just directly punish you financially for "being woke". Small clarification: It won't hurt their employees (except for maybe the 27 corporate employees who live there, depending on what the ownership structure for the housing is), but it would hurt the public of the neighboring three counties. The actual staff of Disney World would not be directly financially impacted in any way whether Reedy Creek is dissolved or not.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:33
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haveblue posted:That's still happening, they call it Storyliving and it doesn't seem to have an opening date yet This is what I was thinking of. I can only imagine the hell that would be working as an "actor" there.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:37
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Lib and let die posted:Should my takeaway from this be that if this were being done by a Democratic state administration, that none of the issues with the tax burden being shifted to citizens etc would be a concern? If he was disbanding RCID for some other reason, then the next step would be to look at "well what does this actually do, in reality" - and it seems like what it does is create some bureaucratic headaches and benefits nobody. I don't really give a poo poo about RCID or Disney World, just looking a little cockeyed at all the "handing it to them" that's going on for a move that is driven by bigotry and literally nothing else, let alone anti-corporatism. You're just buying into DeSantis's faux-populist framing.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:38
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Lib and let die posted:Should my takeaway from this be that if this were being done by a Democratic state administration, that none of the issues with the tax burden being shifted to citizens etc would be a concern? If your only goal was to dissolve Reedy Creek, then there are much better ways to do it. The main problems with DeSantis' version (other than not really making sense to give Disney a tax cut as a method of punishing Disney wokeness) is that they want it to happen right now. That imparts the debt obligations and property transfer to the local counties immediately with literally no support or plan beyond "figure it out." So, even if you wanted to dissolve Reedy Creek just because of a principle, this is literally the worst way to do it. And the only reason they are doing it this way is because giving the local blue counties and Disney a legal frame work to operate in and a year to create a managed dissolution doesn't help DeSantis politically by making it look like he is punishing their wokeness.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:38
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Lib and let die posted:Should my takeaway from this be that if this were being done by a Democratic state administration, that none of the issues with the tax burden being shifted to citizens etc would be a concern? You can't divorce motivations from action, here. The motivations are the entire point. The motivations are being made obvious because they're the entire point. The motivations are the bad part that will have the negative downstream effect. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Small clarification: I'm saying that the part that will hurt their employees is the threat of direct GOP government financial retalation over anything that sniffs the idea of progressive policy at the corporate level. Do people think the GOP is just going to be happy with this little bit of red meat? Are we talking about the same GOP? As soon as this works, they're going to keep doing it, to everyone, over everything. Xombie fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 15:38
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:If your only goal was to dissolve Reedy Creek, then there are much better ways to do it. What are these and which of them are being pursued - because my goal is absolutely to strip away Disney's exception for self-governance. What are the Democrats offering at the Federal level? (I exclude the state level because I'm well aware of the state level plan: nothing. They love Disney Donor Bux.)
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Apr 22, 2022 15:42
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Xombie posted:You can't divorce motivations from action, here. The motivations are the entire point. The motivations are being made obvious because they're the entire point. The motivations are the bad part that will have the negative downstream effect. This argument feels awfully close to "if corps have good intentions, they can have a little extraterritoriality, as a treat" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 22, 2022 15:44
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Lib and let die posted:What are these and which of them are being pursued - because my goal is absolutely to strip away Disney's exception for self-governance. What are the Democrats offering at the Federal level? (I exclude the state level because I'm well aware of the state level plan: nothing. They love Disney Donor Bux.) Nothing, because Disney building its own roads and sewer systems is not an important issue that anyone really cares about, let alone being of national concern. Of all the problems with Disney, the fact that they manage their own mini-county is probably at the very bottom.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:44
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Bishyaler posted:This argument feels awfully close to "if corps have good intentions, they can have a little extraterritoriality, as a treat" You're correct, that is not the argument that I'm making. Thank you for recognizing that. Maybe respond to the one that I am.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:46
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Lib and let die posted:"They only use the special powers granted to them exclusively to do basic normal things" is really not an endorsement of continuing to allow a private company to dictate its own governance, sorry. Kind of an lol example, since that's literally true. The US has demonstrated graphically what happens if you don't have nukes and they don't like the way you look one day, and that treaties aren't worth the paper they're printed on. In any case, the Republicans are actively and openly seeking to punish Disney for producing anything they can't read as fascist propaganda. The message is pretty clear- if you produce any media implying gays, trans, women or nonwhites are people, you're next. Company town aspirations aside, it's going to be interesting to see what the entertainment juggernaut actually does in response to being forced to choose a side in the culture war. Also interesting to see the contradictions finally coming apart here, as obviously Republicans actually believe very little of what they espouse aside from the hatred, selfishness and bigotry, and it's just a matter of what was going to be discarded first as it outlives its usefulness.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:46
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Xombie posted:Nothing, because Disney building its own roads and sewer systems is not an important issue that anyone really cares about, let alone being of national concern. Of all the problems with Disney, the fact that they manage their own mini-county is probably at the very bottom. the federal government is also broadly disallowed from tampering with local jurisdictions due to the 10th amendment but i think that much of this argument is taking place in a plane distinct from facts and reality to restate the implications of what this actually means in reality, here's a twitter thread spelling it out https://twitter.com/NPapantonisWFTV/status/1517272880882585602 e: one thing i've overlooked in this whole thing is that disney still has two company towns even if RCID goes away, and these would be much harder to dissolve if the state government was actually crusading against corporate privilege instead of this all being a dustup about LGBTQ children https://twitter.com/NPapantonisWFTV/status/1517272900079861760 Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 15:47
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Lib and let die posted:What are these and which of them are being pursued - because my goal is absolutely to strip away Disney's exception for self-governance. What are the Democrats offering at the Federal level? (I exclude the state level because I'm well aware of the state level plan: nothing. They love Disney Donor Bux.) I don't think any member of Congress has a platform to dissolve the local district implemented by the state government of Florida because it only impacts county-level regulations and is granted by the state of Florida. Congress couldn't specifically dissolve Reedy Creek. If they got a constitutional amendment, they could ban all special economic districts and take taxing and zoning power away from states and municipalities. That seems like a wildly unlikely and massively impactful decision that radically changes state government and dissolves most municipalities just to get rid of Reedy Creek, though. The better way to do it would be for the Governor of Florida, the state legislature, and the municipal governments to: - Create a legal framework to dissolve the district that would require Reedy Creek to zero out its outstanding debts within X years. - Prevent the issuance of new bonds by Reedy Creek X years before the final dissolution date. - Establish which counties have jurisdiction over which part of the former district. - Give all the neighboring counties time to implement a taxation plan that will kick in automatically and be built into the budget of the fiscal year it is scheduled to take effect. - Have the dissolution take effect on the first day of a new fiscal year. - (Optional) Work out an excise tax/fee system and waivers to allow Disney to pay extra tax in order to maintain their infrastructure in the preferred way. (Although, this would basically revert you 99% of the way back to the current status quo, but without the existence of Reedy Creek as a separate district). Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 15:53
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Yeah, when you consider the political structure of the region it would be very, very hard to allow Disney World to continue to exist in its current form without special treatment. The park is so big compared to the local subdivisions it's essentially a civil service monopsony. Everything you come up with eventually circles back to Disney making all the decisions anyway, just with a different balance between open-doors special legal status and closed-doors corruption Unless you declare that your goal is to shut down Disney World, which, well, fine, but now you're also engaging in a culture war, just one involving fewer civil rights violations
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Apr 22, 2022 15:59
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I don't think any member of Congress has a platform to dissolve the local district implemented by the state government of Florida because it only impacts county-level regulations and is granted by the state of Florida. So nobody except the Republican Florida legislature is doing anything about Disney's self-governance exemption?
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Apr 22, 2022 16:01
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Lib and let die posted:So nobody except the Republican Florida legislature is doing anything about Disney's self-governance exemption? We have no anti-corporations/anti-capitalist left party. The Republicans are moving to being anti-corp as part of that culture war poo poo but it's also pretty obvious it's going to become warmed over national socialism where they will start making their own lists of bad corps who are woke and good patriotic ones who fight for Americans. The Democratic party just wants to kiss all of the corporations because they see a big part of their role in government as protecting corporations and other entities so that they can operate and provide a free market. Republicans anti-corporations stance is just authoritarianism and we don't have any non-authoritarian anti-capitalists anywhere near the mechanisms of power. I never really understand leftists being in shock or trying to catch Democrats in some hypocrisy that they're actually capitalists. They love being capitalists, it's just their followers who get confused and tricked.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:09
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Gumball Gumption posted:We have no anti-corporations/anti-capitalist left party. The Republicans are moving to being anti-corp as part of that culture war poo poo but it's also pretty obvious it's going to become warmed over national socialism where they will start making their own lists of bad corps who are woke and good patriotic ones who fight for Americans. The Democratic party just wants to kiss all of the corporations because they see a big part of their role in government as protecting corporations and other entities so that they can operate and provide a free market. Republicans anti-corporations stance is just authoritarianism and we don't have any non-authoritarian anti-capitalists anywhere near the mechanisms of power. God Bless the USA.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:11
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Why does something need to be down about it though? Aside from corporations = bad we haven't really heard any reasoning
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Apr 22, 2022 16:12
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Trevorrrrrrrrrrrrr posted:Why does something need to be down about it though? Aside from corporations = bad we haven't really heard any reasoning Because no company should have any degree of self-governance. It's not that complex, really.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:16
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Trevorrrrrrrrrrrrr posted:Why does something need to be down about it though? Aside from corporations = bad we haven't really heard any reasoning thats it, its just performative anti-corporatism that has no actual benefit to anyone but a lot of downsides for the local residents and county governments desantis has weaponized anti-corporate sentiment to provide cover for retaliating against disney for calling him out (tepidly) for being mean to children, and we have to both sides this for some reason
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Apr 22, 2022 16:16
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Lib and let die posted:So nobody except the Republican Florida legislature is doing anything about Disney's self-governance exemption? I'm not aware of anyone at the federal level proposing a constitutional amendment to disband municipal government and end the ability for state governments to levy taxes. There might be, but it seems unlikely. The only other people with the power to do so would be the Republican state legislature in Florida, so yes. Technically, they could get a constitutional amendment passed with a convention called by 2/3s of the state legislatures. But, I'm not really that well informed on all of the other state legislatures' positions on Reedy Creek enough to know if they are taking action in that way. I haven't heard anything about it and I can't find any states that have passed a bill to call a constitutional convention on the issue yet on Google.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:18
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I too fly into a blind rage upon hearing that Disney has been allowed to process their own sewage for decades.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:20
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Baronash posted:I too fly into a blind rage upon hearing that Disney has been allowed to process their own sewage for decades. Christ you're insufferably dismissive. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 22, 2022 16:21
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Gumball Gumption posted:We have no anti-corporations/anti-capitalist left party. The Republicans are moving to being anti-corp as part of that culture war poo poo but it's also pretty obvious it's going to become warmed over national socialism where they will start making their own lists of bad corps who are woke and good patriotic ones who fight for Americans. The Democratic party just wants to kiss all of the corporations because they see a big part of their role in government as protecting corporations and other entities so that they can operate and provide a free market. Republicans anti-corporations stance is just authoritarianism and we don't have any non-authoritarian anti-capitalists anywhere near the mechanisms of power. Exactly. The democratic party may as well not even exist in this dumpster fire state. As near as I can tell, they don't do a loving thing and the seem borderline invisible. The Democrats with the highest name recognition here is a converted Republican named Charlie Crist, who was an early adopter of the "I didn't leave the GOP, they left me" crowd but he's still a republican, can't win, is seen as a traitor and his voting record is horrible. And also Corrine Brown who went to prison. I think what DeSantis is doing is building his conservative cred bonafides and I have a funny feeling that which corporations are people and which are not will be something along the lines of most favored nation status, where Hobby Lobby and C-F-A are "people" and "patriotic companies" but Costco maybe not so much. Still seems like a weird fight to pick given how much Disney pumps into the state economy may as well be considered the singular identifying thing about Florida.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:27
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Lib and let die posted:Because no company should have any degree of self-governance. It's not that complex, really. No company does, except Disney, and it's a quirk of its theme park size and a mid-century conceptualization of what Disney was going to be. In reality, it's now just them maintaining their own infrastructure, which they keep so that they can maintain the world's largest amusement park. Every other company in the US just asks for tax abatements. No one else is interested in the kind of setup that Disney has, and there's no real way for them to seek it out. Dissolving Reedy Creek does not solve any meaningful problem in the real world, or else the GOP wouldn't be doing it. DeSantis isn't shooting himself in the foot. It makes things annoying for Disney, incentivizes them to be even less progressive in the future, and creates a burden for a section of the state that doesn't vote for him. That's it.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:27
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BiggerBoat posted:https://apnews.com/article/biden-business-elections-presidential-election-2020-0c132e86207caa4a47886c368a15d00d So many great bits in that story: quote:Former Texas Rep. Beto O’Rourke says he has no interest in national Democratic figures visiting his state as he now runs for governor. Florida Rep. Val Demings, as she campaigns for Senate, was non-comital about Biden’s help, as was Ryan. WE'RE NOT REPUBLICANS has worked so well to date that they're planning on using it as an electoral strategy for the midterms. 
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Apr 22, 2022 16:29
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Disney’s self governance is a nightmare just for OSHA and worker’s rights, not to mention the unbelievable shadiness around Nobody Dies at Disney. Sunlight is the best disinfectant and I’m not going to cry that the company ruining the concept of intellectual property is taking one in the pants. Real Let Them Fight hours imho.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:30
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BiggerBoat posted:Still seems like a weird fight to pick given how much Disney pumps into the state economy may as well be considered the singular identifying thing about Florida. DeSantis and his Florida Republican cronies have made the decision that the adulation of right-wing media and FOX News is worth far, far more than either Disney dollars or the mere fact that they're the state's largest employer. Will it pay off in the long run? Time will tell. But what's happening now is a clear example of the nationalization of politics and the strategy Republicans and other bigots are leaning into for this election cycle.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:31
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BiggerBoat posted:I think what DeSantis is doing is building his conservative cred bonafides and I have a funny feeling that which corporations are people and which are not will be something along the lines of most favored nation status, where Hobby Lobby and C-F-A are "people" and "patriotic companies" but Costco maybe not so much. Because again, this doesn't actually hurt any executives at Disney. It just disincentivizes Disney and other corporations with power to speak out against the GOP. The incentive for a corporation to do any pro-worker or progressive policy, or even just a public statement of condemnation of the GOP being assholes, is because it makes them look good and has no downside. The GOP is creating a downside to shut them up.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:32
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Lib and let die posted:Christ you're insufferably dismissive. And frankly you're just insufferable. You constantly kramer into discussions to attack posters who are actually debating, discussing, or explaining, and make the conscious choice to approach every argument with only the most surface level understanding of it, relying on others to spoonfeed you details (before immediately spitting in their faces for doing so). It is not valuable, interesting, or engaging to drag out an issue of aesthetics over multiple pages, made only more odious by your consistent refusal to meet effort with effort. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 22, 2022 16:33
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Willa Rogers posted:So many great bits in that story: Psaki saying that at a Pod Save America event of all things feels like an anecdote someone would make up, as a joke.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:34
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selec posted:Disney’s self governance is a nightmare just for OSHA and worker’s rights, the gently caress? RCID doesn't exempt disney from OSHA or state/federal labor laws, it just means that disney handles their own local land use and transportation i'm trying to keep an open mind about reasons why this is good, actually, but my god some of yall blatantly haven't the first clue what regulations are in play here and what RCID actually does selec posted:not to mention the unbelievable shadiness around Nobody Dies at Disney. this is more about the fact that disney doesn't have a coroner to declare deaths at the park itself. there's no conspiracy around disney pretending death doesn't exist or whatever internet whispers say
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Apr 22, 2022 16:35
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selec posted:Disney’s self governance is a nightmare just for OSHA and worker’s rights, not to mention the unbelievable shadiness around Nobody Dies at Disney. Sunlight is the best disinfectant and I’m not going to cry that the company ruining the concept of intellectual property is taking one in the pants. Real Let Them Fight hours imho. I think you'll find that a company doesn't need a unique-in-the-nation self-governance structure to abuse their workers, as evidenced by <gestures broadly>. Disney building their own roads isn't the reason they're allowed to treat their workers like poo poo.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:35
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Lib and let die posted:Because no company should have any degree of self-governance. It's not that complex, really. Is a reason why not? Seems like they have done a good job maintainingtheir roads and infrastructure on their own? They still have to follow laws.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:39
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selec posted:Disney’s self governance is a nightmare just for OSHA and worker’s rights, not to mention the unbelievable shadiness around Nobody Dies at Disney. Sunlight is the best disinfectant and I’m not going to cry that the company ruining the concept of intellectual property is taking one in the pants. Real Let Them Fight hours imho. Reedy Creek has nothing to do with OSHA or worker's rights. It is a municipal tax and zoning district that can't override federal law and has nothing to do with federal or state labor law. Since they are a municipal organization, they actually are required to do more financial disclosure than a private entity would. The "nobody has ever died at Disney" thing is an urban myth based on a real thing. The actual thing that the urban myth is based off of is that Disney requires emergency responder vehicles to be non-descript to not break the immersion of the park and that they have helicopters to fly people to nearby hospitals because the park is so big and isolated. They aren't flying dead bodies out to plant them elsewhere. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/declared-deaths/ Disney sucks, but people are assuming wildly incorrect things with a strange level of confidence.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:39
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Willa Rogers posted:WE'RE NOT REPUBLICANS has worked so well to date that they're planning on using it as an electoral strategy for the midterms.  I suppose if you gussied it up as "WE'RE NOT [pedophiles like] REPUBLICANS" then they would be demonstrating the savvy and strategic brilliance of the Chad Republicans, the unstoppable political party that wins nearly half of elections.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:40
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Lib and let die posted:God Bless the USA. Seriously. Like I'm absolutely on your side it's just that the thing we want doesn't exist and anything from fascists is sadly a Trojan horse to sneak in fascism. Corporatism from the middle is sadly going to be the thing I think we're going to see more and more of though as the federal government just doesn't govern. People will turn to the next strongest entity in their lives.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:41
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I don't think big corporations should get huge tax breaks or be able to ignore local laws in the first place so I'll be mildly amused if DeSantis fucks with them even if it's for awful reasons, but I also don't think he really will.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:41
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