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Xombie posted:No company does, except Disney 0 <> 1. Therefore none of this matters: quote:and it's a quirk of its theme park size and a mid-century conceptualization of what Disney was going to be. In reality, it's now just them maintaining their own infrastructure, which they keep so that they can maintain the world's largest amusement park. Every other company in the US just asks for tax abatements. No one else is interested in the kind of setup that Disney has, and there's no real way for them to seek it out.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:43
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It's amazing to me how gullible progressive leftward people can be towards right-wing authoritarian propaganda. There seems to be a pattern developing between where a right authoritarian does something objectively horrible, and the online left-wing echo chambers just start defending it or saying how it is actually the democrat's fault without any regard to the actual issue. trying to pin down their reasoning on why it is a good thing I a Satre-esq endeavor of meaningless wordplay used to draw the conversation further and further from reality and tangible outcomes. You see it with the Disney issue, with the Ukraine invasion, with almost anything Trump. it's really quite consistent at this point. Why is it hard to understand that Ron Desantis attacking Disney for defending the existence of gay people is not something that should be cheered on?
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Apr 22, 2022 16:44
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Xombie posted:Because again, this doesn't actually hurt any executives at Disney. It just disincentivizes Disney and other corporations with power to speak out against the GOP. The incentive for a corporation to do any pro-worker or progressive policy, or even just a public statement of condemnation of the GOP being assholes, is because it makes them look good and has no downside. The GOP is creating a downside to shut them up. It's this. Performative rainbow capitalism is still too far for the fascists and they want to make a demonstration of such. The weird state of Disneyworld as a result of a long aborted crazyass project is just a piece of leverage they happen to be trying to use. Which is still an interesting scenario without particular precedent. What will Disney do? Obviously besides playing both-sides, but I think that's not even going to work any more. What would it look like for them to try to capitulate or appease them? Or to fight back? Who blinks first? Also I'm not sure how many leftists are actually picking a side here vs being the proverbial sicko at the window going "Yes... yes...!"
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Apr 22, 2022 16:44
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It's amazing to me how gullible progressive leftward people can be towards right-wing authoritarian propaganda. There seems to be a pattern developing between where a right authoritarian does something objectively horrible, and the online left-wing echo chambers just start defending it or saying how it is actually the democrat's fault without any regard to the actual issue. trying to pin down their reasoning on why it is a good thing I a Satre-esq endeavor of meaningless wordplay used to draw the conversation further and further from reality and tangible outcomes. "Those propagandized leftists, unlike me, who is not the victim of any propaganda at all, no siree"
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Apr 22, 2022 16:45
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VitalSigns posted:I don't think big corporations should get huge tax breaks or be able to ignore local laws in the first place so I'll be mildly amused if DeSantis fucks with them even if it's for awful reasons, but I also don't think he really will. DeSantis successfully loving with them will give them a huge tax break and offload their debt onto taxpayers. The current district has no actual residents outside of a small amount of corporate Disney staff and no other businesses. The advantage it gives Disney is not a financial one (they are required to cover all of their municipal services and infrastructure usually paid for by local government and they spend much larger amounts than a local municipal government would) and is primarily an issue of zoning and organization. Disney doesn't have to get approval from 3 different counties to build things on their park and they can prevent other businesses from opening up right outside of the park.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:46
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It's amazing to me how gullible progressive leftward people can be towards right-wing authoritarian propaganda. There seems to be a pattern developing between where a right authoritarian does something objectively horrible, and the online left-wing echo chambers just start defending it or saying how it is actually the democrat's fault without any regard to the actual issue.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:46
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Which is still an interesting scenario without particular precedent. What will Disney do? Obviously besides playing both-sides, but I think that's not even going to work any more. What would it look like for them to try to capitulate or appease them? Or to fight back? Who blinks first? dissolving RCID is annoying at best for disney. its worth fighting in the courts because this weird exemption is handy to have but its not going to shut down disney world or anything Ghost Leviathan posted:Also I'm not sure how many leftists are actually picking a side here vs being the proverbial sicko at the window going "Yes... yes...!" a lot of folks are being baited into endorsing a tax increase on the working class in the name of anti-corporatism and its just kind of amazing how effectively desantis' framing is working here
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Apr 22, 2022 16:47
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's this. Performative rainbow capitalism is still too far for the fascists and they want to make a demonstration of such. The weird state of Disneyworld as a result of a long aborted crazyass project is just a piece of leverage they happen to be trying to use. Disney will probably capitulate, and begin searching for a new state to move their HQ in 5-10. Lib and let die posted:Also I'm not sure how many leftists are actually picking a side here vs being the proverbial sicko at the window going "Yes... yes...!" The insitict to have the let them fight dot gif reaction is strong, but probably a misfire on this one.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:48
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Lib and let die posted:0 <> 1. Therefore none of this matters: "But Disney exists" is not a substantive argument against "this thing Disney is doing doesn't really matter and getting rid of it doesn't meaningfully solve any problem". Xombie fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 16:48
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:DeSantis successfully loving with them will give them a huge tax break and offload their debt onto taxpayers. Disney owns all* the land in the district. Businesses couldn't open up on that property whether the RCID was in place or not.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:48
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Disney will probably capitulate, and begin searching for a new state to move their HQ in 5-10. Disney's HQ is in California.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:49
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Xombie posted:"But Disney exists" is not a substantive argument against "this thing Disney is doing doesn't really matter and getting rid of it doesn't meaningfully solve any problem". You forgot to put "with a special carveout for its own self-governance status" after "But Disney exists". Try and keep up, sug.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:49
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:
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Apr 22, 2022 16:50
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Disney's HQ is in California. Wait, what? I could have sworn I read it was in Florida. my bad. Well then they'll for sure capitulate. what are they going to do, move Disney world?
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Apr 22, 2022 16:51
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Mellow Seas posted:If Republicans aren't funding this stuff, they'd be pretty smart to start. On page 90 of this thread, during Peter Thiel chat, a vanity fair article was linked that says he's been reaching out to the Red Scare podcast. Conservatives / authoritarians are absolutely reaching out to the authoritarian-left.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:51
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How are u posted:On page 90 of this thread, during Peter Thiel chat, a vanity fair article was linked that says he's been reaching out to the Red Scare podcast. Conservatives / authoritarians are absolutely reaching out to the authoritarian-left. 
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Apr 22, 2022 16:52
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What in the world is this and what is this supposed to mean?
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Apr 22, 2022 16:54
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Lib and let die posted:You forgot to put "with a special carveout for its own self-governance status" after "But Disney exists". Try and keep up, sug. You forgot the part where the "special carveout" is building infrastructure and doing away with it doesn't actually meaningfully help people. Once again, the GOP is not accidentally doing something that will meaningfully hurt Disney's bottom line, or help workers at Disney or anywhere else in any sense at all. You can't seem to name any what it does in actual reality. Instead it's just pithy one-liners.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:54
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VitalSigns posted:Are people cheering on DeSantis or are you missing the nuance between disliking company towns on principle and cheering on right-wing attacks on companies for not being anti-LGBT enough its fine to dislike company towns in principle, but when dissolving the company town means a billion-with-a-b transfer of debt from the company to the public, i don't think the company is the one getting owned here
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Apr 22, 2022 16:55
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It's amazing to me how gullible progressive leftward people can be towards right-wing authoritarian propaganda. There seems to be a pattern developing between where a right authoritarian does something objectively horrible, and the online left-wing echo chambers just start defending it or saying how it is actually the democrat's fault without any regard to the actual issue. trying to pin down their reasoning on why it is a good thing I a Satre-esq endeavor of meaningless wordplay used to draw the conversation further and further from reality and tangible outcomes. People who disagree with you aren’t gullible or stupid by nature and this is extremely counterproductive to having a conversation when we know you’re rolling your eyes and sighing the whole time. There’s a reason for what you observe, but it’s not the one you think it is; “antisemetism is the Marxism of fools” or however that goes, is what you’re seeing. There is an obvious problem that anybody not blinkered by partisanship can see: huge concentrations of wealth and power. These absolutely need to be torn apart. Disney is too big. It’s got an overwhelming presence in our culture and legal structures, and should not exist in its current form. Marxists: it’s too big because it can unjustly affect legal structures and resist regulatory oversight. Dumbasses: it’s too big because the Jews all want to make your kids gay. You: ??? These are the same???
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Apr 22, 2022 16:56
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Xombie posted:You forgot the part where the "special carveout" is building infrastructure and doing away with it doesn't actually meaningfully help people. I don't care that they're not abusing their special carveout. They shouldn't have the carveout, and I don't give a gently caress who takes it away from them or why.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:56
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:its fine to dislike company towns in principle, but when dissolving the company town means a billion-with-a-b transfer of debt from the company to the public, i don't think the company is the one getting owned here Yeah I mean that's fine, arguing that he's going about it in the worst way possible and that potentially the status quo is better (I'm skeptical but maybe idk, I'd have to see the full argument) is different from accusing people of loving reactionary anti-gay politics is my point
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Apr 22, 2022 16:57
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It's amazing to me how gullible progressive leftward people can be towards right-wing authoritarian propaganda. There seems to be a pattern developing between where a right authoritarian does something objectively horrible, and the online left-wing echo chambers just start defending it or saying how it is actually the democrat's fault without any regard to the actual issue. trying to pin down their reasoning on why it is a good thing I a Satre-esq endeavor of meaningless wordplay used to draw the conversation further and further from reality and tangible outcomes. This is an annoying reframing. The reason this is bad is only because of the collateral damage that it creates to residents of Florida. It's funny when one bad actor fucks over a different bad actor, these meandering principles don't enter into it because we know DeSantis is trash and we know Disney is trash. It's not an acceptance of right-wing propaganda, it's not giving a gently caress about the differences between the various flavors of fascist that dominate politics. Don't obsess over liberal values in lieu of material action.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:59
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selec posted:People who disagree with you aren’t gullible or stupid by nature and this is extremely counterproductive to having a conversation when we know you’re rolling your eyes and sighing the whole time. if you find yourself standing side by side with a bunch of people shouting about Jews and how they want to make your kids gay, maybe you should re-evaluate the real-world consequences of your actions no matter the "nuance" you are trying to portray. also, I love the tone policing that happens when someone that isn't a loud and proud communist posts about what they perceive online leftists to be doing. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 17:00
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Lib and let die posted:I don't care that they're not abusing their special carveout. You not "giving a gently caress" does not matter. This action will have a downstream effect of stopping companies from even remotely being allies to progressive causes or pro-worker policies even for the sake of PR simply because now the GOP will retaliate against them with legislation. That is the topic here. Whether or not you, some poster, "give a gently caress" is not the topic of discussion. The idea that you "don't give a gently caress" that the carveout itself does not have any negative effect, can't be used for negative effect, and isn't even being sought by other companies isn't actually an argument against those facts.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:02
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VitalSigns posted:potentially the status quo is better (I'm skeptical but maybe idk, I'd have to see the full argument) RCID exists as a sub-county layer of government, where the local governments turned over some of their responsibilities to a public agency operated by disney. RCID's entire budget is a matter of public record, RCID has to have publicly elected officials (disney stooges, but still) and operate pretty much like a county government would. effectively, the state just broke off a piece of orange and osceola counties and gave it to disney to govern, which sounds sinister except that the piece is pretty much just roads and bridges and ditches and other very boring, practical things there's no real downside except for the existence of corporations doing things, and whether or not this personally drives you to fury. otherwise everything RCID does operates exactly like the county government, RCID is functionally a public entity which does public entity things for the benefit of a private company on the grounds of their massive resort complex. RCID allows disney to control much of their own taxation (disney still has to pay for things like schools and emergency response) while also handling their own buildings, watershed, and transportation needs. disney actually taxes themselves more than what the local government is capable of taxing, because you can tax yourself a whole lot if you don't have voters complaining about high tax rates. its entirely a weird historical quirk that RCID exists and they wouldn't ever get this carve out today but just having it is really useful, so disney has played it very open and honestly for the benefit of being able to manage parks infrastructure with their own pocket public government
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Apr 22, 2022 17:06
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Here's local reporting on the actual impact it would have on the communities there and why every single person from local government, labor unions, businesses, Republicans, and Democrats from the local counties are opposed to it:quote:End of Reedy Creek: Disney won’t pay more taxes, but you will https://www.wftv.com/news/local/end-reedy-creek-disney-wont-pay-more-taxes-you-will/3TK6ASNJT5EXHICW3DQ3ZHEZYA/
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Apr 22, 2022 17:06
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Mellow Seas posted:It is actually the best reason to vote for Democrats, though. It bombed as a strategy for McAuliffe so I guess we'll have to wait and see how well it plays out this November, but it's not looking good. Maybe Biden is correct & the Senate will pick up two more Dems, thus ensuring the irrelevance of SineManchin & allowing Dems to pass the terrific things on which they campaigned & for which they were elected, like an increased minimum wage & Medicare eligibility at age 60. Maybe Coons & Carper will do a thumbs-up duet the next time minimum wage is brought up for a vote once SineManchin have lost their power to strangle the Senate. 
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Apr 22, 2022 17:08
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:if you find yourself standing side by side with a bunch of people shouting about Jews and how they want to make your kids gay, maybe you should re-evaluate the real-world consequences of your actions no matter the "nuance" you are trying to portray. Horse shoe theory still isn't real. Also it's the same tone policing that comes out when people make vague statements about all the libs. Argue with the real person in this thread who you disagree with, Lib and Let Die, instead of making wild dumb generalizations.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:11
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Here's local reporting on the actual impact it would have on the communities there and why every single person from local government, labor unions, businesses, Republicans, and Democrats from the local counties are opposed to it: It seems like the problem here is state laws (undoubtedly lobbied for by entities like Disney) that restrict local citizens' and their representative governments' ability to tax corporations and the wealthy appropriately, and the solution isn't to just put a corporate board that nobody voted for in charge of cities directly
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Apr 22, 2022 17:12
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e: nvm
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Apr 22, 2022 17:12
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VitalSigns posted:It seems like the problem here is state laws (undoubtedly lobbied for by entities like Disney) that restrict local citizens' and their representatives governments' ability to tax corporations and the wealthy appropriately, and the solution isn't to just put a corporate board that nobody voted for in charge of cities directly Yeah, at the end of the day it feels like it's just two separate issues. Disney is too big and has too many special privileges because our government is built around protecting corporations. We need to do something about that. But also at the same time DeSantis wants to punish them for being disloyal. The sad part about all of this is that we don't have anyone in power who thinks that Disney is too big and special, just people who want to punish them or not punish them over the culture war.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:15
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VitalSigns posted:It seems like the problem here is state laws (undoubtedly lobbied for by entities like Disney) that restrict local citizens' and their representatives governments' ability to tax corporations and the wealthy appropriately, and the solution isn't to just put a corporate board that nobody voted for in charge of cities directly what? no corporations are not out there lobbying for fairly pedestrian changes to local taxation regulations to beat the system somehow. this is small potatoes stuff the reason that line exists is to explain to people who think "well, why doesn't orange county just do a special tax on disney to pay for things?" because it legally can't, a county entity cannot single out specific parcels, uses, or organizations for special taxation rates. this is a great way for county officials to retaliate against people they don't like - "didn't vote for my proposal? gently caress you, your tax rate is now 50 mills, suck it" i beg of you all, when trying to figure out how corporations are to blame here, at least ground your arguments in a realistic understanding of local government regulations and tax policy, how it works, and what is reasonable to expect from the powers typically reserved for county governments
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Apr 22, 2022 17:16
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Here's local reporting on the actual impact it would have on the communities there and why every single person from local government, labor unions, businesses, Republicans, and Democrats from the local counties are opposed to it: Raising property taxes to cover this seems like it'd tie back into yesterday's conversation about homeownership too. Going up 25% in order to cover this is insane. Thanks for posting this article, it helps put things in perspective and helps put into focus what nixing it (and supporting nixing it) in this particular instance really means for people.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:18
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Gumball Gumption posted:Horse shoe theory still isn't real. Also it's the same tone policing that comes out when people make vague statements about all the libs. Argue with the real person in this thread who you disagree with, Lib and Let Die, instead of making wild dumb generalizations. I'll work on it. thanks. Gumball Gumption posted:Yeah, at the end of the day it feels like it's just two separate issues. Disney is too big and has too many special privileges because our government is built around protecting corporations. We need to do something about that. But also at the same time DeSantis wants to punish them for being disloyal. The sad part about all of this is that we don't have anyone in power who thinks that Disney is too big and special, just people who want to punish them or not punish them over the culture war. I agree that there are two issues here. 1. Flodia GOP targeting Disney for having the appearance of being friendly to LGBTQ issues and people. 2. Disney is a huge lovely corporation that should probably be broken up and taxed out of existence. I can support 2, and not support 1. But supporting 1 does nothing to lead to 2.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:21
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RBA Starblade posted:helps put into focus what nixing it (and supporting nixing it) in this particular instance really means for people. I don't understand this line of reasoning, and you are far from the first to use it. If posting is not praxis, then supporting or not supporting the action means nothing for people. LALD may be wrong, but not in a way that means LALD is harming someone.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:22
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Also the funniest/saddest part of all of this is how Disney never even cared. They were happy to say nothing about the bill until they got too much public heat for not saying anything. We have to stop DeSantis from taking Disney's special status because he wants to punish them because they felt forced into saying something and if Disney does lose special status it will primarily punish normal people instead of Disney. It's just an exhausting series of events that will punish the average person the most no matter the outcome.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:23
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Willa Rogers posted:It bombed as a strategy for McAuliffe so I guess we'll have to wait and see how well it plays out this November, but it's not looking good. Where I think McAuliffe went wrong was making his election claims not about Republicans but about Trump specifically. In a national election it's going to be harder for Republicans to sit in the corner and say "oh, I'm just a good-natured businessman who doesn't want white kids to hate themselves." And if pointing out that Republicans are trash and have no popular ideas limits the losses to 20 house seats and a break-even in the Senate, that's not a "victory," but it's still mitigating the damage, making it plausible to regroup in '24. People hate Republicans. Willa Rogers posted:Maybe Biden is correct & the Senate will pick up two more Dems, thus ensuring the irrelevance of SineManchin & allowing Dems to pass the terrific things on which they campaigned & for which they were elected, like an increased minimum wage & Medicare eligibility at age 60. The stuff that made it into the 1.75T version of BBB would have a good chance, though, if they had 52 Senators and by some amazing turn of events were able to keep the House.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:24
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Wait, what? I could have sworn I read it was in Florida. my bad. Well then they'll for sure capitulate. what are they going to do, move Disney world?
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Apr 22, 2022 17:26
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RBA Starblade posted:Raising property taxes to cover this seems like it'd tie back into yesterday's conversation about homeownership too. Going up 25% in order to cover this is insane. remember that renters also pay property taxes - landlords get taxed, and pass the taxes along in the form of rent increases raising everyone's rent by $2000 a year to own the corporations, somehow
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Apr 22, 2022 17:28
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