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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:DeSantis actually did it. Huh, I wonder if this will change the outcome of the upcoming gubernatorial election. Probably will get Disney more directly involved in it, at a minimum. Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 20:58
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Epicurius posted:Orange and Osceola counties are blue counties anyway, so DeSantis doesn't care. Thats the thing that makes me the most sad about all this. Its like all the actions that Trump did that screwed people who happened to live in blue states.
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Apr 22, 2022 21:00
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Epicurius posted:Disney already pays a bunch of county taxes, including property taxes to Orange and Osceola counties, though. So the county probably isn't going to be able to raise much more from them if Reedy Creek goes away. Yeah exactly that's the problem right. Disney can easily afford to pay more taxes to the county than they do, they've got at least 150 million more they're paying to their special district right now but due to regressive corporate friendly laws there's no legal way for the county to get that money from Disney without gouging all the other residents with property tax hikes too so if the special district goes away that money is lost and everyone else gets hosed. It's a bad way to set up a government in the first place, letting the district continue so Disney can divert funds that could in theory be going to general revenue into a special entity for infrastructure spending only for Disney is a band-aid on top of a fundamental broken dysfunctional taxation and legal system. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 21:05
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The two key things about the bill are: 1) It doesn't kick in right away. It leaves time until January next year to allow the state to "negotiate" several provisions that are left unaddressed in the bill. 2) The end result is basically just to allow DeSantis to say "Ron DeSantis sticks it to woke politics!" and to change basically nothing at Disney except to have all the local counties pick up their tab and to make it moderately more annoying and slower to run their park. https://twitter.com/NPapantonisWFTV/status/1517272887119552512
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Apr 22, 2022 21:07
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Epicurius posted:Orange and Osceola counties are blue counties anyway, so DeSantis doesn't care. Are property owners as blue as the overall demographics in those areas? An increase in property taxes doesn’t affect everyone equally.
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Apr 22, 2022 21:21
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E: Nevermind, missing the point.
Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 21:27
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Oh god. Regarding Disney and Reedy Creek. Again this was political retaliation and theater. Disney told the political class it wasnt going to give them any money and openly spoke about legislation. Doesnt help that people are loving touchy about the topic of sex, and children. If you have anything putting the two together its gonna overide what little thinking they can do if any. Thats why "okay groomer" is loving damming. Because it pulls people into a false debate. If your knee jerk reaction to seeing someone called a groomer is to get defensive you ve already lost. Also its amazing that disney has shut the gently caress up, you d think they would come back swinging with how the State is punishing them but they are still gonna take the moral victory.
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Apr 22, 2022 21:41
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Ups_rail posted:Thats why "okay groomer" is loving damming. Because it pulls people into a false debate. If your knee jerk reaction to seeing someone called a groomer is to get defensive you ve already lost. This is pretty much their MO on everything and I’m really not sure how to counter it better.
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Apr 22, 2022 22:06
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Ups_rail posted:Also its amazing that disney has shut the gently caress up, you d think they would come back swinging with how the State is punishing them but they are still gonna take the moral victory. Given Disney's size, I bet the organization is reacting as fast as it can, but you're still talking about the equivalent of trying to change the direction of an oil tanker. Plus, who knows how many within the ranks of that corporation probably agree with Desantis and Republicans in general? Or there may be that "leopards eating my face?!?!" shock you all like to joke about.
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Apr 22, 2022 22:14
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:DeSantis actually did it. He signed the bill yeah, but as others have said it's far from a done deal. It just starts a year long process that might end with RCI dissolving but the counties are going to run to the courts faster than anyone to stop it. Eric Cantonese posted:
The ceo Chapek is a republican that made personal political donations to GOP candidates Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 22:15
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When you’ve definitely not done cocaine at an orgy https://twitter.com/jacobrubashkin/status/1517609712036032512?s=21&t=IzWZD1vmAhJjxhZ-xPdurA
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Apr 22, 2022 22:15
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FizFashizzle posted:When you’ve definitely not done cocaine at an orgy Sorry, I’m being told that everyone with rudimentary pattern recognition put their money on that one, so there’s not much of a payout.
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Apr 22, 2022 22:37
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FizFashizzle posted:When you’ve definitely not done cocaine at an orgy Man, and here I thought Rand Paul's Drag Race was just a dumb internet joke, but nope, it's real 
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Apr 22, 2022 23:02
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 Last chance! Voting in the Kellies ends at midnight tomorrow, April 23!Please go to the voting thread to see the nominees and cast your votes. Several categories are still very close!
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Apr 22, 2022 23:04
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snorch posted:This is pretty much their MO on everything and I’m really not sure how to counter it better. Call them idiots online and if somebody calls you a groomer in real life punch them in the mouth. Pin them with Denny Hastert and Jim Jordan, call them hateful bigots who can’t stop thinking about little kids.
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Apr 22, 2022 23:06
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FizFashizzle posted:When you’ve definitely not done cocaine at an orgy Liberals are gonna freak out about one of the only cool things he’s done
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Apr 22, 2022 23:07
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snorch posted:This is pretty much their MO on everything and I’m really not sure how to counter it better. Well for starters the whole "sex ed" thing. There s a reason it was kept so dry and clinical because only a minor handful of people would on there own get weird about it. But you still had culture warriors like the religious right that would make hay from it. Then you had fuckers like rush Limbaugh that would make hay about it. The abstract point of these was to get an emotional response about of people for clout and donations. So having an even toned response of "we are just teaching basic biology with no moral bend to it" and of "course respect the wishes of parents" ( whose seem to really care about their kids on all things besides what fox news told them) gently caress the simpsons really summed it up especially with the kids praying for souls out in the hallway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29d3Kn5gfJg selec posted:Call them idiots online and if somebody calls you a groomer in real life punch them in the mouth. Pin them with Denny Hastert and Jim Jordan, call them hateful bigots who can’t stop thinking about little kids. and the head line will be "brave man called out a "groomer" and was attacked by "groomer" check into tucker carson tonight to learn more" Ups_rail fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 23:15
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quote is not edit
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Apr 22, 2022 23:17
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My sex education class was my teachers stating that abstinence is the only way to not get an STD because condoms can “break” so we shouldn’t bother using them. They proceeded to show us goatee type graphic pictures of extreme STD infections. The teacher also said that “AIDS started because some guy from Africa decided to have sex with a monkey. Which is okay and we shouldn’t judge because monkeys look just like us.”
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Apr 22, 2022 23:23
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Ups_rail posted:Well for starters the whole "sex ed" thing. There s a reason it was kept so dry and clinical because only a minor handful of people would on there own get weird about it. But you still had culture warriors like the religious right that would make hay from it. Ok? They’re gonna say what they’re going to say, stop accepting their terms. You can go into a protective crouch, but it’s not very rhetorically effective.
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Apr 22, 2022 23:24
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selec posted:Liberals are gonna freak out about one of the only cool things he’s done It's not cool if it's cultural appropriation, though. (But otherwise I get what you mean)
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Apr 22, 2022 23:33
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah I agree, but you could also repeal the laws that require such tax increases to be regressive in the first place, is my point. Like, condemn DeSantis for going about ending Disney's company towns in a regressive way and for evil reasons sure, but I think the conversation about why the only legal alternatives to the status quo are worse is an important one to have. Since the expenses in question are exclusively to pay for Disney's debts and Disney's infrastructure, revoking the special district is fundamentally a transfer of money from other taxpayers to Disney Inc. There's no way around that in any kind of remotely fair or equitable tax code. Even if the county could increase corporate tax, they'd still be taxing all the other businesses in the county to pay for Disney's costs, and most (if not all) of those other businesses don't make nearly as much money as Disney does. Taxing restaurants and grocery stores to pay off Disney's debts is definitely regressive. And the "you" in this case is Governor Ron DeSantis and the Florida GOP. Since there's no chance whatsoever of them repealing the laws that limit local governments' freedom to raise taxes, we're kinda just debating imaginary hypotheticals here. Maybe things would be somewhat different if DeSantis repealed Florida's tax restrictions at the same time as he tried to punish a company for speaking out in favor of LGBT rights. But that's not what he's doing, and that billion dollars in Disney Debt isn't going to sit around and wait for however many years it takes for pro-taxation crusaders to win office in the trending-red Sunshine State. I suppose people could just donate money to the government if they want to. That's a common argument raised by anti-tax zealots who argue for tax cuts, after all - if we want to fund public services so badly, why don't we donate money to do it, instead of forcing everyone to do it? The fact that your nominally pro-tax position has circled around to making one of the most classic anti-tax arguments is probably a good point to stop, take a breather, and reconsider your position. After all, it's impossible to sustain the hard year-over-year obligations of operating long-term public commitments using voluntary donations, which are inherently unstable and unreliable. And Disney has no reason to voluntarily donate the money it used to spend on its own infrastructure, especially without any assurance that the money will be spent on its infrastructure. Lastly, you say "if Disney cares so much", but Disney isn't the only entity that cares here! The counties that will be forced to shoulder these costs - and the taxpayers who are ultimately having this dumped on them - also oppose the dissolution of the special district, probably more than Disney itself does. The fact of the matter is that when you put aside all of the nakedly ideological talk about "corporate fiefdoms" and "company towns", the special district existed because it made things easier for everyone involved and didn't really hurt anything. It may go against your fundamental values for something like that to exist, but dissolving it haphazardly like this is going to cause a bunch of trouble to everyone in the area for basically no reason and no benefit. Just as Disney was happy to have control over its own problems and even willing to pay extra to do so, the counties were happy to collect Disney's taxes while not having to deal with Disney's problems. And tearing all that down without a single thought for the consequences, as the GOP is openly doing, is pretty lovely. Koos Group posted:I don't understand. Isn't that supporting what VitalSigns is saying? VitalSigns' assertion that "you can't get Disney to pay their fair share of taxes unless you let them run a company town" is wrong because the counties in question both say that Disney is already paying their fair share in taxes, and that Disney's tax bill won't increase as a result of the special district being dissolved. The counties will be forced to absorb the costs Disney used to pay, but they won't get the money Disney used to pay them because the special district doesn't affect Disney's tax situation at all. Moreover, even if the tax laws were to be changed to allow the corporate tax rate to be increased, this move would still amount to forcing other taxpayers to pay for Disney's expenses. Financially, the impact of this move would be to take debts that Disney owed and impose those debts on local taxpayers, while not meaningfully increasing Disney's tax obligations as a fellow taxpayers. Even if taxes were raised beyond the limits set by state law (something the FLGOP has shown no indication that they're interested in doing), taking a cost that would have been paid by "Disney" and transferring that cost to "all the taxpayers, including Disney" is inherently an example of privatizing profits while socializing costs. Raising the corporate tax rate doesn't change that.
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Apr 23, 2022 00:01
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The Sean posted:It's not cool if it's cultural appropriation, though. I can’t tell if this is a joke, or if you’re actually saying that a man wearing a bra is cultural appropriation.
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Apr 23, 2022 01:01
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selec posted:Liberals are gonna freak out about one of the only cool things he’s done I was gonna say don't make me like or have empathy for this piece of poo poo. This is probably the coolest thing he's ever done.
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Apr 23, 2022 01:39
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Baronash posted:I can’t tell if this is a joke, or if you’re actually saying that a man wearing a bra is cultural appropriation. A Christian white nationalist homophobe politician playing at cross dressing for funsies is inappropriate. Yes, it is cultural appropriation by definition. The Sean fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 01:40
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selec posted:Ok? They’re gonna say what they’re going to say, stop accepting their terms. You can go into a protective crouch, but it’s not very rhetorically effective. rhetorically its the whole "I m not a XXX" problem just denying it poison's the well. Pile that on the issue of children and mater of sex and gender and its a loving toxic waste dump. "grooming" is playing political foot ball, with loving hand grenades, and I m not sure how best to counter that rhretoric because if people try to argue its not grooming they are still repeating the loaded term.
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Apr 23, 2022 01:44
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Main Paineframe posted:VitalSigns' assertion that "you can't get Disney to pay their fair share of taxes unless you let them run a company town" is wrong because the counties in question both say that Disney is already paying their fair share in taxes, and that Disney's tax bill won't increase as a result of the special district being dissolved. The counties will be forced to absorb the costs Disney used to pay, but they won't get the money Disney used to pay them because the special district doesn't affect Disney's tax situation at all. Moreover, even if the tax laws were to be changed to allow the corporate tax rate to be increased, this move would still amount to forcing other taxpayers to pay for Disney's expenses. This seems to be a disagreement about the meaning of "fair share" but no one is defining the term. The tax structure of Florida appears to be impossible to make it fair based on Vitalsigns explanation of the restrictions. The counties should be able to raise these taxes from Disney needed to maintain the roads Disney planned, built, and that are used to its near exclusive benefit. Since we aren't changing Florida's state bullshit any time soon, the counties should just not pay IMO. Not raise taxes. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 02:15
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Harold Fjord posted:This seems to be a disagreement about the meaning of "fair share" but no one is defining the term. The tax structure of Florida appears to be impossible to make it fair based on Vitalsigns explanation of the restrictions. The counties should be able to raise these taxes from Disney needed to maintain the roads Disney planned, built, and that are used to its near exclusive benefit. Wow. If only the state government had set up some sort of, I don't know, improvement district, which required Disney to pay for their own infrastructure.
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Apr 23, 2022 02:19
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The Sean posted:A Christian white nationalist homophobe politician playing at cross dressing for funsies is inappropriate. Yes, it is cultural appropriation by definition. Only if your definition of culture is meaninglessly broad.
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Apr 23, 2022 02:25
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Baronash posted:Only if your definition of culture is meaninglessly broad. White people don't actually have any culture so it's fine (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 23, 2022 02:30
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Epicurius posted:Wow. If only the state government had set up some sort of, I don't know, improvement district, which required Disney to pay for their own infrastructure. That's going away though. And since it's gone, the counties have to do what they can. Raising taxes 24% seems like a bad idea. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 02:33
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Harold Fjord posted:That's going away though. And since it's gone, the counties have to do what they can. Raising taxes 24% seems like a bad idea. I know it's going away. That's my point. That's why it's bad that it's going away. And raising taxes 24% is a bad idea, but the county can't do much else to make up the shortfall. That's what people in the thread is saying. The counties can't pass a special "Disney tax" or charge Disney a higher rate than they do other property owners. This isn't because of some sort of special corrupt legislative deal. It's because that's how property taxes work. Property is given a value, and then you tax a percentage of the value. That's already going on, though. Disney already plays property taxes. And the county can't order Disney to maintain the roads themselves (although if the county slips on doing it, Disney might do that anyway, and then sue the county) because the roads are public roads, and with the abolition of the RCID, the ownership passes back to the county. The bigger problem isn't even road maintenance, though. It's that with the abolition of the RCID, the counties assume its debts. There's no magic way out of this. The counties can't do anything to stop it from happening. That's the thing. The state has said this is going to go away because DeSantis got pissed off that the company said something bad about a law he liked, and now people are going to be hurt. That's not Disney's fault, that's not Orange or Osceola County's fault. That's on Desantis and the legislators who voted for this. And I get that some people here have said, "Well, RCID never should have been established in the first place. It's bad. It's a giveaway to a big corporation. I have no opinion on that. But, now that it exists, removing it has consequences. And since, in a lot of ways the RCID helped the counties more than Disney, the consequences are going to fall predominantly on them.
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Apr 23, 2022 02:51
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I'm not talking about magic, I'm talking about process. These systems are not automatic. I appreciate you summarizing the facts so far but I wasn't disagreeing with any of those and it seems like you think I am.
Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 03:07
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Harold Fjord posted:I'm not talking about magic, I'm talking about process. These systems are not automatic. Right, so what's your process? Remember, counties derive their powers from the state, so any of this would have to be a bill or constitutional amendment that makes it through the legislature. So what, in your mind, should that bill say, and how do you get it through the legislature? What's your proposed solution?
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Apr 23, 2022 03:12
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I'm talking about actual people in the local governments, elected officials and staff ideally, taking their sweet time getting various paperwork in order, people hired, etc. and Disney taking it's own time restructuring the divisions responsible for maintenance. You seem to want to very aggressively prescribe what I can suggest and it has to be laws that we all already know the R's controlling Florida won't pass. Funny, that. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 03:16
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Harold Fjord posted:I'm talking about actual people in the local governments, elected officials and staff ideally, taking their sweet time getting various paperwork in order, people hired, etc. and Disney taking it's own time restructuring the divisions responsible for maintenance. I don't want to prescribe what you can suggest. I want to know what you suggest. Because I don't understand what you're suggesting. What does "actual people in the local governments, elected officials and staff ideally, taking their sweet time getting various paperwork in order, people hired, etc. and Disney taking it's own time restructuring the divisions responsible for maintenance." mean? Are you suggesting the county just not do debt payment or road maintenance? Because deliberately not carrying out their statutory duties and not paying scheduled debt is a really quick way for them to get sued.
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Apr 23, 2022 03:30
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Baronash posted:Only if your definition of culture is meaninglessly broad. I have clearly made a case for why this is cultural appropriation. You have made two posts claiming it isn't without anything to support your claim. I'd be happy to see a direct response.
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Apr 23, 2022 04:45
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The Sean posted:I have clearly made a case for why this is cultural appropriation. I think that the burden would be on you to argue that crossdressing is a cultural practice, rather than saying that I ought to prove it’s not. Nevertheless, I disagree that crossdressing is inherently cultural or that there is any subculture that gets to lay claim to the act of dressing in clothes typically associated with another gender. And what’s more, arguing that a man dressing in lingerie in appropriating some culture sounds pretty reductive towards whatever culture that is.
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Apr 23, 2022 04:59
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The Sean posted:I have clearly made a case for why this is cultural appropriation. Who's culture? I don't think you mentioned that and to be honest it's not clear at all to me. Which cultures wear lingerie for drinking parties as an important cultural practice? Or I guess even just wearing lingerie. Who's culture is he wearing as a costume? Edit: Like, I get the angle of attack that he's a hypocrite but I think that just makes him a hypocrite and no one cares if Republicans are hypocrites. Unless we're using wildly different definitions of culture I feel like calling this cultural appropriation just waters down that term. Wearing sacred cultural items as decoration while you get wasted is cultural appropriation, this is just wearing lingerie and getting wasted while saying you love the Jesus who hates those things. Jokingly, if we did a proper study of the culture of white ultra-christian men we would probably learn how this is a deep rooted part of their culture. Important bonding ritual among them, being a huge hypocrite about sex. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 05:56
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:As an extra bonus, it also prevents Florida from building a new nuclear power plant. Unlikely that power plant ever existed. What he's referring to is that 1960s Florida legislature was so thorough in endowing special powers that they gave Walt Disney the right to run an airport or build a nuclear power plant with mouse ears on the coolers on that property if he chose to do it, and if the host cities/counties didn't like it they could kick rocks. All this was of course part of the weird Le Corbusier moment that Uncle Walt had before he died, where he thought he could get people interested in urban planning. (In case you're wondering why the company gave up on the city of the future, undoubtedly part of the problem was without Walt they had a much bigger problem getting US industry to pay for poo poo they keep, but the real problem was they couldn't figure out how to erode democracy effectively. The homes were all meant to be Homes of Tomorrow style fully loaded with state of the art tech that the company could fully refurbish anytime they please, meaning you weren't even allowed to furnish the insides of your own home. But you can't do this without also giving residents the power to vote to undo all of this heavy-handed administration in favor of a more traditional vision of individual liberty, so that's how you start off with a city and end with about a dozen homes for loyal employees east of Magic Kingdom for fifty years.) Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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