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therattle posted:I never said his winning was a good thing. therattle posted:Can’t one even say that it’s good that an actual fascist lost an election without being sniped at?
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Apr 25, 2022 09:00
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TACD posted:I somehow don’t believe you’re posting in good faith here "Good that fascist lost" is not the same as "good that le toniblair won". This has already become insanely circular and braindead tho
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Apr 25, 2022 09:05
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therattle posted:It feels like some people in the us thread interpret posts in the worst possible way (or even outright read them wrongly) just so they can attack them and/or somehow make themselves look worthier, and it’s exhausting. I mean, ditto if this is how you’re reacting to people pointing out there’s nothing to be relieved about when Macron is the kind of petit-fascist who has been enabling the fascist rise and electing him is just kicking the cam down the road.
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Apr 25, 2022 09:06
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Why would he ?. He lives in a capitalist society going against that is even rarer than admitting to being wrong in public life. Seems the bare minimum to care about him restarting his political career.
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Apr 25, 2022 09:31
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One benefit of Jupiter winning reelection is that he apparently pulled back from his lovely pension reform in this election and also became moderately less poo poo after the yellowjacket riots made him realise how much his "dictating wisdom from the high mountain" was not appreciated by the average French.
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Apr 25, 2022 09:33
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Lungboy posted:Stewart left the Tories because he had the whip removed over Brexit. It wasn't some huge political realisation, he literally couldn't have continued in politics as a Tory. He's still a conservative though, and was most recently seen giving a character reference for Owen Paterson. He stuck to his personal principles over the parties bad idea and got the boot for it, which he probably took into account beforehand. I can respect that as I'm not a massive fan of tribalism, he's also a fox hunting twat though which I have an enormous problem with despite me keeping spoiled pet chickens.
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Apr 25, 2022 09:39
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Spangly A posted:John Prescott but good the old Labour right still died though: it got thoroughly replaced by New Labour. as political projects go, that's still not really a success by any stretch
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Apr 25, 2022 09:43
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Yes but his personal principles are poo poo, which is why he was a tory in the first place. All of the other tories are also sticking to their personal principles.
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Apr 25, 2022 09:47
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Noxville posted:I mean, ditto if this is how you’re reacting to people pointing out there’s nothing to be relieved about when Macron is the kind of petit-fascist who has been enabling the fascist rise and electing him is just kicking the cam down the road. 1) I don't agree with that argument but I do understand it. To me there is a meaningful difference between a centrist like Macron and an outright fascist. Claiming that they are basically the same strikes me as lacking in nuance. It's simplistic. 2) Consequently, I was relieved that the outright fascist didn't win. 3) Relieved is not the same as happy. I was reacting to people saying I was happy that Macron won. I was relieved he won because it meant a fascist lost. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not glad that Macron is the president of France. I would not vote for him. I understand that the absence of meaningful change under him has led to a disenchantment with mainstream politics which has opened a door for a fascist populist like Le Pen. I recognise that he represents the status quo. I still think that's better than a fascist like Le Pen. TACD posted:I somehow don’t believe you’re posting in good faith here Yeah, likewise, chum.
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Apr 25, 2022 09:49
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I would vote for Macron if it was the choice given on Sunday. I would be gritting my teeth as I did it, but I would vote for him.
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Apr 25, 2022 09:53
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This argument has been dumb as hell. The French voters ended up with a binary choice, and the outcome of that choice was that the less fashy candidate won. That is a good thing, even if the fact that such a binary decision had to be made, is not. We're all on the same page here, so let's be comrades rather than attacking each other for what seems to be literally no reason.
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Apr 25, 2022 09:59
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Morningwoodpecker posted:He stuck to his personal principles over the parties bad idea and got the boot for it, which he probably took into account beforehand. I don't understand this, which parties do you mean? He had the whip removed in 2019 over his Remain stance, and quit the party so he could stand as Mayoral candidate which he couldn't do as a Tory.
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Apr 25, 2022 10:06
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OwlFancier posted:Yes but his personal principles are poo poo, which is why he was a tory in the first place. All of the other tories are also sticking to their personal principles. Not all of them. He genuinely opposed Brexit in fact he staked and lost his political career on it. Had Corbyn been able or willing to bring himself to actually oppose Brexit he might have garnered more support from the 48% of the people who were looking to him to behave as though he was leading the opposition. Sitting on the fence while we committed a national act of self harm was an absolutely unforgivable failure.
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Apr 25, 2022 10:12
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Not all of them. He genuinely opposed Brexit in fact he staked and lost his political career on it. Had Corbyn been able or willing to bring himself to actually oppose Brexit he might have garnered more support from the 48% of the people who were looking to him to behave as though he was leading the opposition. Sitting on the fence while we committed a national act of self harm was an absolutely unforgivable failure. What's the weather like in the magical world inside your head? And how did you get an internet connection to reality?
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Apr 25, 2022 10:15
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OwlFancier posted:What's the weather like in the magical world inside your head? And how did you get an internet connection to reality? You like the guy, I get it. I think he's a useless oval office.
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Apr 25, 2022 10:25
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Not all of them. He genuinely opposed Brexit in fact he staked and lost his political career on it. Had Corbyn been able or willing to bring himself to actually oppose Brexit he might have garnered more support from the 48% of the people who were looking to him to behave as though he was leading the opposition. Sitting on the fence while we committed a national act of self harm was an absolutely unforgivable failure. This seems a bit of revisionism and getting the wrong message from things. In 2017, when Labour very nearly won, Labour's postion was "Brexit means brexit but do Brexit properly with Labour in charge". In 2019, conference voted to push for Remain and a 2nd referendum and Labour were absolutely decimated in the GE. If Labour had stuck to doing Brexit properly in 2019 they might well have done an awful lot better than backing a 2nd ref.
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Apr 25, 2022 10:28
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Morningwoodpecker posted:You like the guy, I get it. I think he's a useless oval office. Oh wow what spectacular insight. Is this based on anything in particular or on anything we can observe or is this a gut feeling that has no connection to anything other than your lower digestive tract?
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Apr 25, 2022 10:30
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Josef bugman posted:Oh wow what spectacular insight. Is this based on anything in particular or on anything we can observe or is this a gut feeling that has no connection to anything other than your lower digestive tract? It seems to be the done thing in this thread, why should I do it any differently ?.
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Apr 25, 2022 10:32
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Lungboy posted:This seems a bit of revisionism and getting the wrong message from things. In 2017, when Labour very nearly won, Labour's postion was "Brexit means brexit but do Brexit properly with Labour in charge". In 2019, conference voted to push for Remain and a 2nd referendum and Labour were absolutely decimated in the GE. If Labour had stuck to doing Brexit properly in 2019 they might well have done an awful lot better than backing a 2nd ref.
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Apr 25, 2022 10:34
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Lungboy posted:This seems a bit of revisionism and getting the wrong message from things. In 2017, when Labour very nearly won, Labour's postion was "Brexit means brexit but do Brexit properly with Labour in charge". In 2019, conference voted to push for Remain and a 2nd referendum and Labour were absolutely decimated in the GE. If Labour had stuck to doing Brexit properly in 2019 they might well have done an awful lot better than backing a 2nd ref. If labour had put minimal effort into factchecking the transparent lies Brexit was based on it would never have got that far. They left it to the Tories to who made a pigs ear of it.
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Apr 25, 2022 10:35
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Morningwoodpecker posted:You like the guy, I get it. I think he's a useless oval office. Turn on your monitor
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Apr 25, 2022 10:36
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His Divine Shadow posted:Turn on your monitor Maybe he should join Stewarts new centrist party. That might help him become politically relevant again.
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Apr 25, 2022 10:42
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Morningwoodpecker posted:If labour had put minimal effort into factchecking the transparent lies Brexit was based on it would never have got that far. They left it to the Tories to who made a pigs ear of it. Remain lost, and no amount of rules lawyering and well hactuallying would have changed the electorate enough to win that GE and get a second ref. It was a doomed strategy, and the only one with any chance of working was to push the idea that the Tories would be disastrous in charge of Brexit and that Labour doing it properly would be better.
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Apr 25, 2022 10:44
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Not all of them. He genuinely opposed Brexit in fact he staked and lost his political career on it. Had Corbyn been able or willing to bring himself to actually oppose Brexit he might have garnered more support from the 48% of the people who were looking to him to behave as though he was leading the opposition. Sitting on the fence while we committed a national act of self harm was an absolutely unforgivable failure. Oh, you're a FBPE, now I get why you love Rory & support the Useless oval office Centrist Party being created. Makes sense, also makes you a deluded end of history dolt
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Apr 25, 2022 10:45
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Guavanaut posted:Yes, "we will run a second referendum between a soft brexit and reversing the first referendum" was ridiculously unpopular with the actual electorate in 2019, where off the back of the previous years of complete political deadlock it was able to be portrayed as "we will continue to take the piss" to both remainers and leavers. Then ofc the libs shifted to "we won't do 2nd ref either if it means working with Jimery Crowban" so there was no real benefit to the shift, but JC's hand was kinda forced at that point. 2019 was unwinnable, basically (anyone who thinks Corbyn was fence sitting prior to the Brexit vote just wasn't paying attention,* iirc he made more public appearances opposing Brexit than any other politician except for Alistair Campbell, he just didn't do it on Cameron's ridiculous "actually everything is fine just like it is" platform (*which I guess could be argued to be a failure of communication, but considering the state of the press imo he did everything he could)) e: the bigger question imo is whether the conference vote & kieth's Brexit stance were deliberately designed to force JC into an unwinnable situation, which... hmm. Borrovan fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 10:45
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Morningwoodpecker posted:It seems to be the done thing in this thread, why should I do it any differently ?. Because, surprisingly, people will often post reasons for why they think things. Being incapable of providing any I assume you don't have one other than bellyfeel. Also you are responding to people raising points against your ideas with "nuhuh" but slightly longer. Please, come up with a better point. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 10:46
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Borrovan posted:JC's original "we will do a customs union" was the best stance in response to the Brexit vote, but by the time Labour shifted to 2nd ref it had become abundantly clear that the liberals would absolutely not play ball with this, so it just wasn't a tenable solution. No, bad man Jeremy Crummbin hate EU like he hate Jews
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Apr 25, 2022 10:47
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Morningwoodpecker posted:You like the guy, I get it. I think he's a useless oval office. Whether I like the guy is irrelevant, he campaigned quite thoroughly against brexit leading up to the referendum, and if you're just going to make things up because you like the sound of them then I don't really see how I can engage with you other than on the basis that you're delusional.
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Apr 25, 2022 10:48
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Dang, thread's been extra spicy last coupla pages
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Apr 25, 2022 10:51
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Lungboy posted:Remain lost, and no amount of rules lawyering and well hactuallying would have changed the electorate enough to win that GE and get a second ref. It was a doomed strategy, and the only one with any chance of working was to push the idea that the Tories would be disastrous in charge of Brexit and that Labour doing it properly would be better. How about a politically grown up referendum system where you don't do the stupid thing based on thirty years of Daily Mail anti-immigrant propaganda and lies by setting the winning percentage higher than 50%. Being bad at holding referendums as a nation doesn't mean going along with the daftest result, it means admitting a mistake and reform. If we did that we could hold more referendums rather than treating them as an alien concept we don't really understand how to approach.
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Apr 25, 2022 10:52
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Morningwoodpecker posted:How about a politically grown up referendum system where you don't do the stupid thing based on thirty years of Daily Mail anti-immigrant propaganda and lies by setting the winning percentage higher than 50%. I agree, David Cameron did a terrible job and caused decades of suffering
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Apr 25, 2022 10:59
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Morningwoodpecker posted:How about a politically grown up referendum system where you don't do the stupid thing based on thirty years of Daily Mail anti-immigrant propaganda and lies by setting the winning percentage higher than 50%. Reminder that the only reason we had the referendum was because David Cameron thought he'd get another coalition with the Libs & so made promises he didn't think he'd have to keep in the 2015 manifesto. And the Libs absolutely died because it turned out Pigfucker and Loser Clegg were the only people in the country who were positive on the coalition (Well, maybe that one lib who was excited about the 10p bag fee in exchange for tougher sanctions on the unemployed). And then DC arrogantly went through with the referendum assuming it'd be a breeze and running a staggeringly complacent & condescending campaign. But it's Juramby Crumblin who is to blame (Sidenote, but referenda are a poo poo idea when the electorate are kept ignorant)
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Apr 25, 2022 11:00
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Yes, if we could have held referenda on every single one of the EU treaties similarly to how Ireland did and had a press environment that wasn't entirely captured by a handful of extremely powerful people, rather than running an all or nothing off the back of two other "status quo wins again David Cameron forever" referenda then things would definitely have been different. Britain didn't really have the material conditions to delever that at any point in the past 40 years though.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:01
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Morningwoodpecker posted:How about a politically grown up referendum system where you don't do the stupid thing based on thirty years of Daily Mail anti-immigrant propaganda and lies by setting the winning percentage higher than 50%. I regret to inform you that "what if we set up referendums to only give the result we want" is not something that I think a lot of people would see the point in. And was very solidly rejected when it was attempted after the EU referendum.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:04
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It also didn't help that as soon as the result came in everyone went "oh, we're leaving then I guess", with a not insignificant number believing that we'd actually left as soon as the vote came in.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:05
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Morningwoodpecker posted:How about a politically grown up referendum system where you don't do the stupid thing based on thirty years of Daily Mail anti-immigrant propaganda and lies by setting the winning percentage higher than 50%. I agree with this, and Cameron should have put a minimum % result before anything was actioned or just said "it's advisory so we'll look into it" but instead he ran off and May went fully hardcore Brexit must be delivered. Not sure Labour could have done anything at all to alter that. Once that was done, telling people they were stupid and/or wrong with their first vote so we need a second was electoral suicide.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:07
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If you're not prepared to enact both possible outcomes of a referendum then why have one? They are of minimal utility for consent manufacturing if you have to put your finger on the scale to get the outcome you want because everyone can see you doing that, and it encourages a massive media operation to support the outcome you don't, so you're only weakening your position in the long run. I suppose that does make them very "grown up politics" but I don't think it makes them worth doing.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:11
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Morningwoodpecker posted:How about a politically grown up referendum system where you don't do the stupid thing based on thirty years of Daily Mail anti-immigrant propaganda and lies by setting the winning percentage higher than 50%. This is willingly ignoring the fact that Brexit was and is a project by the rich to privatise 50 years or so of diplomatic effort. They'd sold off everything else, and by nuking our main trade agreements, they made (and continue to make) loving fortunes. The entire weight of their owned media was laser focussed on crashing the pound as low and as long as possible for selfish gains. the rest is windows dressing and misdirection. They were not going to let some scruffy lefty ruin what has turned into an absolute windfall beyond their wildest dreams.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:13
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OwlFancier posted:I regret to inform you that "what if we set up referendums to only give the result we want" is not something that I think a lot of people would see the point in. And was very solidly rejected when it was attempted after the EU referendum. Because whatever happened after that, it would have been a lot harder for the right wing press to push "EU dictators don't listen to you, the people". They'd probably still have tried, but a big lie is a lot harder without the kernel of truth at its core.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:14
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Lungboy posted:Remain lost, and no amount of rules lawyering and well hactuallying would have changed the electorate enough to win that GE and get a second ref. It was a doomed strategy, and the only one with any chance of working was to push the idea that the Tories would be disastrous in charge of Brexit and that Labour doing it properly would be better. as far as i remember, the reason labour didn't win that election was because corbyn was universally sabotaged by the mainstream media - or is that what you mean by doomed? because i think brexit was only one issue of many there, and labour's strategy on it at the time wasn't going to change the result regardless because you would not see balanced commentary on corbyn unless you were already tapped in to other sources. the average citizen would hear nothing except how he was a far left anti-semite grump. roomtone fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 11:15
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