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chiasaur11 posted:She fought Char and got a good line about how she really hopes that was the red comet, because otherwise losing like that would be embarrassing. I guess being known as "Person who lost to the Red Comet and survived" would be better than "Jerid's first girlfriend (RIP)"
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Apr 27, 2022 01:16
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Fivemarks posted:SEED, 00, Age, Unicorn.
Kanos fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 01:19
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Urge to post metal gear revengeance memes rising.
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Apr 27, 2022 01:29
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Just like the good old days after 1/3!
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Apr 27, 2022 01:39
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Arc Hammer posted:Some people write manifestos, others go on to write cynical light novels because their favourite booby side character got offed by "Kill 'em all" Tomino. considering how urobochi's works tend to go i guess he was inspired by it more than anything
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Apr 27, 2022 02:26
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Arc Hammer posted:Urge to post metal gear revengeance memes rising. JACK
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Apr 27, 2022 02:33
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though being traumatized by anime titty death explains basically everything about anything urobochi has ever done, so that's one thought put to rest
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Apr 27, 2022 02:34
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Yinlock posted:i didn't know this existed, and would like to go back to that blissful time Watch the first 20 seconds of this: https://youtu.be/zsCD5XCu6CM Mike Shinoda is a huge Gundam fan.
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Apr 27, 2022 02:38
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Shinjobi posted:JACK Making the mother of all omelets here, Banagher! Can't fret over every egg!
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Apr 27, 2022 03:08
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dogsicle posted:i only care about Sara and Emma sorry You don't care about Four? @Waffleman_ I will be interested in your thoughts on her, too.
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Apr 27, 2022 06:28
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Kanos posted:
Isn't this supposed to be portrayed as Riddhe doing a bad thing, though?
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Apr 27, 2022 06:33
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Fivemarks posted:Isn't this supposed to be portrayed as Riddhe doing a bad thing, though? It's portrayed as a tragic thing, but it's not portrayed as a bad thing, if that makes sense. No one castigates Riddhe over Loni's death and the story seems to acknowledge that in that moment shooting her was the only answer because the alternative was "Loni kills Banagher and continues rampaging through a defenseless city full of civilians".
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Apr 27, 2022 06:51
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Doesn't it happen a second after Banagher breaks through the brainwashing from Loni's malfunctioning paycommu and gets her to stand down, though?
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Apr 27, 2022 09:39
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Kanos posted:The final battle of SEED has the no-kill protagonist get philosophically deconstructed by the main antagonist in their final duel, followed by the no-kill protagonist being absolutely forced to kill in order to defend himself because the antagonist is too skilled and dangerous to be merely disabled, and in the end the no-kill protagonist has virtually no impact on the resolution of the conflict and that is left to two other people who are definitely fighting and killing. It's also important to note that Kira initially comes to his combat pacifist approach through intensely personal trauma that we see on screen rather than simply being a smug mark of self-superiority; Kira's effectively a combat pacifist because of PTSD. I can't really view Kira as a pacifist, personally; especially in light of Destiny. If it was just SEED on it's own, then I'd think it plausible to view him as someone who adopted pacifism as a reaction to his recent experiences, and then realized that it wasn't a real solution in the end, and decided sometimes some people have to die. He does the same thing in Destiny though, and never actually has a situation where practicing pacifism is difficult, and succeeds through a pacifist means regardless. Instead, he just doesn't kill when it's pretty easy due to the technological advantage, and then kills whenever he comes across someone he can't just disable. I guess you could view his battle with Rey in that light, but it didn't even seem a struggle on his part, so I wouldn't personally. Rey never actually pushes Kira in the slightest, never damages the Strike Freedom and doesn't even go SEED mode. Which is basically SEED's short hand for "poo poo's on now" in most cases (Rau didn't have one either, if I recall). The scene would be a lot more powerful if Kira had lost the actual fight, but managed to talk Rey down so that it didn't matter. It could even be presented as "Kira wasn't really trying", which is already Fukuda's excuse for Kira losing to Shinn, if I recall. Kanos posted:00 is extremely into "sometimes bad people are just bad and need to be killed"; Ribbons and Ali are both present at the big "newtype understanding moment" GN bursts and are utterly repulsed and disgusted by it and want no part of that poo poo. The entire second season is basically an extended marathon of killing fascists. The only truly garbage person who gets "understanding" instead of a beam or bullet to the face is Billy, an abuser who is voluntarily forgiven by the one he abused. When did Billy abuse Sumeragi? The scene is presented as her apologizing for abusing the fact she knew he had feelings for her and using him as a place to dump all her sad sack because of that. Kanos posted:AGE is a bad show but it doesn't really push pacifism. Of the three protagonists, you have effectively three perspectives initially: Flit wants to massacre the entire Vegan race, Asemu wants to sabotage both sides to ensure that neither side can successfully genocide the other, and Kio is all in on combat pacifism. The show then spends time showing how each of these perspectives is stupid as hell; Flit's approach is obviously criminal, Asemu's approach is inevitably just going to prolong the conflict and breed deeper and deeper hatred indefinitely, and Kio's approach is incredibly vulnerable to ruthless assholes(such as when he loses the AGE-3 because the villains took a hostage). The final resolution involves all three of them working together to actually fight and beat the people pushing for conflict. The thing that always makes me laugh about this is that Asemu's point of view is so worthless that he basically disappears from the show after killing Zeheart, and is barely involved in the finale. It's just about the interaction of Flit and Kio's views, and Asemu really doesn't come into it despite being Flit's son and Kio's father. Kanos posted:It's portrayed as a tragic thing, but it's not portrayed as a bad thing, if that makes sense. No one castigates Riddhe over Loni's death and the story seems to acknowledge that in that moment shooting her was the only answer because the alternative was "Loni kills Banagher and continues rampaging through a defenseless city full of civilians". I haven't seen that episode of Unicorn in a while, but I'm pretty sure the tragedy is that Banagher was on the precipice of talking Loni down via Newtype telepathy, but obviously Riddhe couldn't know that and was just reacting to what he could see; which is Banagher hesitating to kill someone who has been murdering babies, and so does it instead. The show doesn't actually hold him responsible for it, as you say, since it'd be impossible for him to know, but Loni was on the verge of stopping from what I recall. She'd probably not have gotten the best treatment, even if she had lived though, frankly.
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Apr 27, 2022 10:00
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The whole thing with Loni is one of those things where the OVA's attempts to streamline the Novel version's events arguably went too far(one could even say dumbed it down if one isn't feeling generous) and just made Banana look like an overly naive doofus even by Newtype Protagonist standards
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Apr 27, 2022 11:14
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The novel version of events kind of needed a total rewrite thanks to it's healthy heaping of racism, the two situations really don't compare very closely because of it
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Apr 27, 2022 11:32
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I never read the novel, and don't really recall what description I've heard of it but I do recall that it sounds like the OVA version played up the comparisons between Loni/Banagher and other members of the cast (Riddhe and Mineva primarily) as inheriting the sins of their parents/family, and whether you can break free of that cycle. Banagher had almost broken Loni from those chains too, the way he eventually helps Mineva and Riddhe free themselves of their perceived obligations/guilt for the crimes of their family, but Riddhe's actions put an end to it regardless.
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Apr 27, 2022 11:44
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tsob posted:I can't really view Kira as a pacifist, personally; especially in light of Destiny. If it was just SEED on it's own, then I'd think it plausible to view him as someone who adopted pacifism as a reaction to his recent experiences, and then realized that it wasn't a real solution in the end, and decided sometimes some people have to die. He does the same thing in Destiny though, and never actually has a situation where practicing pacifism is difficult, and succeeds through a pacifist means regardless. Instead, he just doesn't kill when it's pretty easy due to the technological advantage, and then kills whenever he comes across someone he can't just disable. I guess you could view his battle with Rey in that light, but it didn't even seem a struggle on his part, so I wouldn't personally. Rey never actually pushes Kira in the slightest, never damages the Strike Freedom and doesn't even go SEED mode. Which is basically SEED's short hand for "poo poo's on now" in most cases (Rau didn't have one either, if I recall). The scene would be a lot more powerful if Kira had lost the actual fight, but managed to talk Rey down so that it didn't matter. It could even be presented as "Kira wasn't really trying", which is already Fukuda's excuse for Kira losing to Shinn, if I recall. A lot of this is down to SEED Destiny being really badly written and composed, reducing Kira's actually relatively complex character arc in SEED to "I am a flawless figure who can do no wrong". This is also a problem with the SEED Remaster, which tries very hard to sand every possible human feature off of Kira in an effort to make him perfect and blameless in all respects, including changing the utterly transformative scene where he kills Nichol from "A panicky Kira kills someone his friend cares about in a desperate attempt to survive" to "Nichol trips and falls onto Kira's sword because we need the scene to progress this way but Kira can't do something that could be seen as bad on purpose". quote:When did Billy abuse Sumeragi? The scene is presented as her apologizing for abusing the fact she knew he had feelings for her and using him as a place to dump all her sad sack because of that. The dude was wildly in love with her, found her at a low point in her life after 00 S1, took her in, and let her stay drunk out of her loving gourd the entire time she was with him and was furiously angry when she left and he found out why. It's not really hard to draw icky conclusions from "I want to keep a woman I love very close to me but also have no problems letting her engage in substance abuse the entire time". quote:The thing that always makes me laugh about this is that Asemu's point of view is so worthless that he basically disappears from the show after killing Zeheart, and is barely involved in the finale. It's just about the interaction of Flit and Kio's views, and Asemu really doesn't come into it despite being Flit's son and Kio's father. Asemu is the one who kills Zeheart, so that's not really "barely involved". It's true that his approach and views don't really matter in the finale, because his views are pretty much inherently worthless water-treading that doesn't actually end the conflict one way or another. quote:I haven't seen that episode of Unicorn in a while, but I'm pretty sure the tragedy is that Banagher was on the precipice of talking Loni down via Newtype telepathy, but obviously Riddhe couldn't know that and was just reacting to what he could see; which is Banagher hesitating to kill someone who has been murdering babies, and so does it instead. The show doesn't actually hold him responsible for it, as you say, since it'd be impossible for him to know, but Loni was on the verge of stopping from what I recall. She'd probably not have gotten the best treatment, even if she had lived though, frankly. It's somewhat ambiguous. The sequence of the final bit of the Shamblo fight is Loni getting taken over by the psycommu and chanting "Sieg Zeon" repeatedly while just kind of, well, shambling around shooting. Banagher and Riddhe line up for an attack run. Loni stops chanting and is visited by the ghost of Kirks, who says "Loni, it's time to go. Our war is over.", after which she begins crying. She's then possessed by a black/purple cloud, bows her head, and begins charging the mega particle cannon, at which point Loni newtypes at Banagher, saying "Banagher, isn't it sad?", leading to Banagher announcing he can't shoot. The Shamblo fires the cannon at the Unicorn and the Delta Plus, but it gets deflected by the Shamblo's own reflector bits as Riddhe grabs the magnum and kills her. My interpretation of the scene has pretty much always been that Loni was basically ripped in half between "doesn't want to fight anymore" and "can't possibly let go of her hatred", with a dash of "man i've killed a bunch of innocent people" on top, and viewed the only way out as death-by-enemy-mobile suit. She's absolutely not surrendering at the end of the scene, but she's also not trying her hardest to kill Banagher and Riddhe at the point either.
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Apr 27, 2022 11:47
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Does have echoes of that weird demon thing Amuro sees when Dozle died
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Apr 27, 2022 11:50
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Asemu is absent from the moral argument in the finale because he'd already made clear he sided with his son over his father, not to mention he had an unapologetic belief that he personally had no conflict ending solution anyway and his entire approach is harm minimization and maintaining the status quo which becomes moottsob posted:I never read the novel, and don't really recall what description I've heard of it but I do recall that it sounds like the OVA version played up the comparisons between Loni/Banagher and other members of the cast (Riddhe and Mineva primarily) as inheriting the sins of their parents/family, and whether you can break free of that cycle. Banagher had almost broken Loni from those chains too, the way he eventually helps Mineva and Riddhe free themselves of their perceived obligations/guilt for the crimes of their family, but Riddhe's actions put an end to it regardless. In the novel, the Shamblo is crewed by a four person team: Loni's father (commander), her two brothers (weapons, navigation) and Loni herself (defense systems) Loni and her family aren't Zeon and there's no Zeonic uprising at all in the novel, Loni's father is a deeply religious Muslim who hates the Federation because he thinks it's a Western dominated power determined to wipe out Islam, and because during the OYW his wife killed a Federation soldier who had raped a Muslim woman and was subsequently charged and given the death penalty for it. The entire Dakar attack is his plan that the Sleeves via Full Frontal give some support to because they think it serves their purposes of unlocking another step of the data hidden in the Unicorn. When the Shamblo has broken through Dakar's defenses Loni's father starts ordering them to open fire on the civilian population, eventually Loni opposes this and her father shoots and kills her for it. Her spirit asks Banagher to stop the rampage and guides him and Riddhe through the Shamblo's defenses and he drops the hammer on it personally rather than Riddhe having to do it.
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Apr 27, 2022 12:51
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Kanos posted:A lot of this is down to SEED Destiny being really badly written and composed, reducing Kira's actually relatively complex character arc in SEED to "I am a flawless figure who can do no wrong". This is also a problem with the SEED Remaster, which tries very hard to sand every possible human feature off of Kira in an effort to make him perfect and blameless in all respects, including changing the utterly transformative scene where he kills Nichol from "A panicky Kira kills someone his friend cares about in a desperate attempt to survive" to "Nichol trips and falls onto Kira's sword because we need the scene to progress this way but Kira can't do something that could be seen as bad on purpose". Sure, though I will say, in thinking about this and watching the Shamblo fight again it makes me appreciate Banagher in comparison to Kira, because that scene is explicitly about Banagher ultimately failing; even after putting up some resistance to the battle with Zinnerman and the show letting him come out of it on a high note as he talks about hope, using the strongest weapon etc. He also doesn't just have an easy time of it, and mostly tries to stand down and not fight, despite the danger. He struggles physically and emotionally with the effort, and can't actually commit to anything and instead it's Riddhe that ends up finishing things in a way that means Banagher himself failed. The final moments of Loni's connection just hardens his conviction for the future though. As opposed to Kira's efforts, especially in Destiny. Kanos posted:The dude was wildly in love with her, found her at a low point in her life after 00 S1, took her in, and let her stay drunk out of her loving gourd the entire time she was with him and was furiously angry when she left and he found out why. It's not really hard to draw icky conclusions from "I want to keep a woman I love very close to me but also have no problems letting her engage in substance abuse the entire time". It's not hard to see that implication, but even if you do want to assume that happened during the time skip, that's not what the quantum burst scene has them confront. When Billy and Sumeragi feel the effects of the Quantum Burst, it's her who apologizes to him, rather than forgiving him for abusing her as you said. You could assume he abused her off-screen, but if he did, then she didn't explicitly forgive him for it; you just have to assume that she did that too. Which basically robs the idea of any narrative power it might have had anyway. It's more likely that the implication is just not actually true, even if you find it skeevy. Not only does the scene open with Billy trying to halt her drinking and then suggesting they all go out and talk after he sees Setsuna at the door and realizes it's someone Sumeragi knows, suggesting that he's just not successful at helping her despite trying, which wouldn't be surprising given how passive he is in general, but he doesn't actually get angry when she says she's leaving after he goes to stop her drinking and only gets angry when Setsuna says that Sumeragi is part of Celestial Being. You know, the terrorist organization that upended the world and that he spent years fighting? Kanos posted:Asemu is the one who kills Zeheart, so that's not really "barely involved". It's true that his approach and views don't really matter in the finale, because his views are pretty much inherently worthless water-treading that doesn't actually end the conflict one way or another. He barely appears in or contributes to the final episode of the show rather than finale then, if you'd prefer. Which is really all Flit/Kio. His confrontation with Zeheart is at the end of the penultimate episode, and he's just kind of there for the actual final episode without contributing anything of value. Kanos posted:The sequence of the final bit of the Shamblo fight is Loni getting taken over by the psycommu and chanting "Sieg Zeon" repeatedly while just kind of, well, shambling around shooting. Banagher and Riddhe line up for an attack run. Loni stops chanting and is visited by the ghost of Kirks, who says "Loni, it's time to go. Our war is over.", after which she begins crying. She's then possessed by a black/purple cloud, bows her head, and begins charging the mega particle cannon, at which point Loni newtypes at Banagher, saying "Banagher, isn't it sad?", leading to Banagher announcing he can't shoot. The Shamblo fires the cannon at the Unicorn and the Delta Plus, but it gets deflected by the Shamblo's own reflector bits as Riddhe grabs the magnum and kills her. See, the fact the reflector bits deflect (well, shield) the shot removes any ambiguity for me, because the Shamblo generally doesn't use the reflector bits on the main mega particle cannon at all and instead uses them to aim the scattering mega particle cannon shots over a wider area, while it just fires the main mega particle cannon and aims that using the neck/head. As is, there are multiple reflector bits lining up that stop the shot just short of hitting the Unicorn/Delta, and the other reflectors make no effort to stop Riddhe's shot. Which to me indicates that Loni has stopped fighting at all and wanted to die as you say. tsob fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 13:09
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Edit: Reply isn't edit, damnit.
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Apr 27, 2022 13:14
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Seemlar posted:In the novel, the Shamblo is crewed by a four person team: Loni's father (commander), her two brothers (weapons, navigation) and Loni herself (defense systems) Okay yeah what the gently caress. Score one for the OVA because yeah, that's a yikes for me and the way you've described it makes it sound like the author wanted to make a point about his own views more than making something in service to the story.
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Apr 27, 2022 14:46
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The ova should have had the father directly guiding or piloting the Mobile armor or something. Because without something like that, having Banagher describing Loni as "a good person" makes him sound incredibly stupid. She has killed thousands of innocent people you dumb gently caress. Keep out the weird anti muslim stuff but make him like a diehard zeon sympathiser or something.
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Apr 27, 2022 16:46
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Banagher defaults to seeing everyone as a good person because he is a combination of unshakeable eternal optimist and also a wizard psychic level newtype.
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Apr 27, 2022 16:53
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Banagher's confrontation with Loni is also a continuation of his earlier fight with Zinnerman where he calls out Zinnerman on his bullshit justifications for attacking civilians. He knows Zinnerman isn't a bad person at heart and is trying to convince himself he only knows how to live with hatred. Banagher's belief in inner kindness extends to the rest of the Zeon remnants for the remainder of the episode. It's not a "gently caress these bloodthirsty morons go go Byarlant Custom" episode. It's a bunch of broken people fooling themselves into thinking blood for blood will bring back what was lost, and pointlessly throwing their lives away for the whims of a jackass. Otherwise good people who had every chance to put down their guns and live life end up getting dragged into a hopeless conflict based off a false promise of retribution. So yeah, I can see where Banagher is coming from believing Loni is a better person than the monster she is within the machine. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 17:11
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Zimmerman I can buy being a good person because they showed him doing good stuff. He saved Banagher, cared about his comrades and shown him being pissed at how Marida was being treated. Loni just killed people. Nothing in the show presents the audience gives any indication that she's anything but a bloodthirsty lunatic, other than maybe crying over her dead brother. Zimmerman also wasn't the one committing the war crime. At worst he was apathetic about it, but the show clearly indicates that he's not buying his own reasoning. He even lets Banagher go and try to stop Loni.
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Apr 27, 2022 17:23
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Also, we do see Loni getting her brain eaten by her father's ghost within the psycommu when it starts up, so we know Banagher (one of the UC's most sensitive Newtypes) is onto something when she says she's not herself.
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Apr 27, 2022 17:26
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Banagher's sympathy for Zinnerman extends to the other Zeon fighters, though. He and Zinnerman came to an understanding and afterwards we see Banagher start to interact more with the other remnants and see them as people outside of their mobile suits. Also, quite telling, Banagher learns that both Zeon and Feddie suits use interchangeable weapons systems, which further solidifies his belief that most people are normal, if misguided, and the enemy is the system that perpetuates the conflict by arming both sides and putting them at each other's throats. Banagher already forgave Marida and she loving annihilated most of his classmates and God knows how many other people during the Industrial 7 skirmish.
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Apr 27, 2022 17:55
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Arc Hammer posted:Banagher's confrontation with Loni is also a continuation of his earlier fight with Zinnerman where he calls out Zinnerman on his bullshit justifications for attacking civilians. He knows Zinnerman isn't a bad person at heart and is trying to convince himself he only knows how to live with hatred. Banagher's belief in inner kindness extends to the rest of the Zeon remnants for the remainder of the episode. Loni's actions are also directly predicated on her father as is, because he hated the Federation and raised her as a soldier in a war that had ended a decade ago. A war she doesn't really have any personal investment in, and instead is just fighting because her father raised her to fight it. Hence why she refers to it as a curse at one point. Never mind that Loni is explicitly being at least partially controlled by what is implied to be her father's spirit through the Shamblo's psycommu system. When the battle is starting, Kirks orders Loni to avoid the city to minimize casualties and while Loni is annoyed because she hates the Federation, she agrees; then a second later the psycommu system overtakes her, the reflector bits launch and she starts firing on the city as Kirks talks about the psycommu system going out of control and being bloodthirsty. Loni's empty hatred of the Federation being a familial obligation is something Banagher is primed to empathize with though, and really, emblematic of the show's central themes, because Banagher himself is part of a family that almost inducted him into some bad poo poo and only didn't because his mother got disgusted with it and pulled him away from the rest of the family while he was still young. His father still managed to pull him into it by tying him to the Unicorn itself though, saddling him with that responsibility to see out the box's contents and decide what to do with it. He did so with good intentions, but ultimately, he still did so. His father being the head of a family that had been bribing the Federation with decades, and conspired to cover up things that might have lead to a better world, at least for some, if out in the open. Riddhe and Mineva are in a similar boat, as regards family obligation. Loni's father being a direct part would have weakened it, if anything, because as is, her actions are an empty, learned hate but still at her hands. If Loni's father was there, then he'd be the villain of that scene; not someone who was a victim themselves, like Loni.
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Apr 27, 2022 18:28
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hell yeah another OYW Gundam https://twitter.com/zeonicscans/status/1519415385036050433?s=20&t=Grruu837gbasA8R28Aw_Hg
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Apr 28, 2022 00:10
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A Gundam with a cowlick.
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Apr 28, 2022 00:15
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More Gundams need to apply the Fenice's design sensibilities.
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Apr 28, 2022 00:33
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Balding Gundam.
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Apr 28, 2022 00:42
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Seemlar posted:In the novel, the Shamblo is crewed by a four person team: Loni's father (commander), her two brothers (weapons, navigation) and Loni herself (defense systems) Between this and using the Rape of Nanking for Zinnerman's backstory, Unicorn novel's writer sure is a real hack.
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Apr 28, 2022 01:10
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amigolupus posted:Between this and using the Rape of Nanking for Zinnerman's backstory, Unicorn novel's writer sure is a real hack. Yeah. Yep. Yeeeeep.
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Apr 28, 2022 01:21
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amigolupus posted:Between this and using the Rape of Nanking for Zinnerman's backstory, Unicorn novel's writer sure is a real hack. Fukui is an extremely fervent Japanese nationalist who became famous for the Japanese equivalent of Tom Clancy novels before writing for Gundam, if that contextualizes things.
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Apr 28, 2022 01:33
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Arc Hammer posted:Banagher's confrontation with Loni is also a continuation of his earlier fight with Zinnerman where he calls out Zinnerman on his bullshit justifications for attacking civilians. He knows Zinnerman isn't a bad person at heart and is trying to convince himself he only knows how to live with hatred. Banagher's belief in inner kindness extends to the rest of the Zeon remnants for the remainder of the episode. Yeah, the Byarlant Custom doesn't get a pilot shown just to emphasize how this is a tragic, pointless waste of lives. This guy isn't shown as a major character reshaping the world. He's the inevitable consequences, a one-man embodiment of the Federation's grinding victories in every war in fought in. It's one of the ways that Unicorn episode 4 is the highlight of the OVA series. Just a really good episode. Shame it couldn't keep up the momentum, but the net is still some of the better Gundam.
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Apr 28, 2022 01:35
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I'm sure that a Muslim father signing his family up for a suicide pact following the honor killing of his wife and siding with a terrorist organization to indiscriminately murder civilians in order to punish the Decadent West / Federation is purely for the sake of the story and has no further political statement to make. Yeah I'm sticking with Kirks being an adoptive father for Loni, thank you.
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Apr 28, 2022 01:37
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the badass byarlant custom is a metaphor
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Apr 28, 2022 01:52
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